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Poll

What Will They Find When They Go 'Up'?

"WARNING! Radar Lock! WARNING! Missile Launch!"
Jasper really thinks the habitats are dull and could use a lick of paint or two
Gavia and Ardent have never seen the habitats from outside and think it's cool
Mr Church is incapacitated by space sickness; a mutiny ensues
The Praesees explain to Jasper that all that has occured has done so according to their design
"The whole robot drone fleet couldn't destroy all the habitats! It would take ten thousand ships with more firepower than..."
"Just so you know... That big ship? It wasn't there when we left to come down to the planet."
Alice, Sedna and Church find themselves in trouble: "Lesser beings" are euthenased on sight up here!

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Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017  (Read 2874 times)

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #50 on: 14 Feb 2017, 14:18 »

We don't know that his voice command worked yet.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #51 on: 14 Feb 2017, 23:36 »

I'd be very surprised if it doesn't. It would seem to be a very odd joke to pull in the strip and would undermine the whole 'Clarketech' feel of the upgraded spaceship.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #52 on: 15 Feb 2017, 05:49 »

I fully expect it to, but it hasn't yet, so we don't know.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #53 on: 18 Feb 2017, 02:19 »

Maybe not routinely available, but close to a necessity right now.

It would be a logical thing to have on a spaceship. No docking hassles, just match velocity and pop your ears.

Or they could play wolf and cabbage, and hope Pate is impulsive enough to fall for "Better send Church out first to make sure you'll be safe out there". Two, four, six, eight, separation of Church and Pate!
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #54 on: 19 Feb 2017, 13:43 »

 :mrgreen: HOLY SHIT THAT'S A GIANT-ASS TREE

which I suppose is worlds better than a giant ass-tree.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #55 on: 19 Feb 2017, 13:46 »

And it's only the above-ground part of the tree.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #56 on: 19 Feb 2017, 13:48 »

Yep, called it: big space-going tree.

And it's only the above-ground part of the tree.

Going for the bonus points, maybe the roots are sticking into a parallel dimension? I mean, why not?

Right now, I'm most worried that those 'leaves' orbiting around the boll are perimeter defence turrets. Assuming that the Praeses don't want Ardent and Gavia back (and cutting off Gavia's communications suggests that they don't), our intrepid heroes and villains are about to get an uncomfortably warm welcome wagon.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #57 on: 19 Feb 2017, 13:50 »

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #58 on: 19 Feb 2017, 16:12 »

Yep, called it: big space-going tree.

And it's only the above-ground part of the tree.

Going for the bonus points, maybe the roots are sticking into a parallel dimension? I mean, why not?

Right now, I'm most worried that those 'leaves' orbiting around the boll are perimeter defence turrets. Assuming that the Praeses don't want Ardent and Gavia back (and cutting off Gavia's communications suggests that they don't), our intrepid heroes and villains are about to get an uncomfortably warm welcome wagon.

If that were a possibility then why bother to help them get back home?  I know Alice wanted a chat with the Praeses too, but if they pop the Bubble ship then she, Sedna, and Church will just drift until Earth's gravity drags them down.  She wouldn't go to all this trouble if she were completely oblivious of the space habitats.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #59 on: 19 Feb 2017, 16:46 »

So THAT's what they look like.

I wonder, was the whole thing a scheme to get their, what, tendrils on Pate?
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2017, 17:02 by OldGoat »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #60 on: 19 Feb 2017, 18:26 »

Or maybe this is the Vorlons celebrating Christmas.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #61 on: 19 Feb 2017, 21:47 »

OMG!!!

IT'S A JURAIAN TREE SHIP!!!!!


Meah!!      :-D
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #62 on: 20 Feb 2017, 00:54 »

So, a thought on Ardent's ship - It's clearly advanced, but it is also made by nanomachines programmed by someone for the Praeses. So, whatever it can do, it is incapable of being more advanced than the most advanced tech that the Praeses have - After all, it's using only whatever raw resources are available to modify the ship, unless it can make resources out of thin air. (And if the nanomachines can do that, then so can the Praeses.)

Unless Church can avoid being dropped out of an airlock that magically appears beneath his feet, I don't see how he plans on threatening the Praeses.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #63 on: 20 Feb 2017, 01:03 »

I had a thought. Depending on whether the tree is in geostationary orbit and its mass relative to the moon, its quite possible that the planet would experience arboreal eclipses as the tree passes in front of the moon and the sun.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #64 on: 20 Feb 2017, 06:17 »

It's probably not that big, because if it was big enough to cause a noticeable eclipse it would also be easily visible from the ground.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #65 on: 20 Feb 2017, 06:20 »

OMG!!!

IT'S A JURAIAN TREE SHIP!!!!!


Meah!!      :-D


I've been thinking this ever since it was pointed out the tree connection to Prases.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #66 on: 20 Feb 2017, 08:21 »

It's probably not that big, because if it was big enough to cause a noticeable eclipse it would also be easily visible from the ground.

It would definitely be visible from the ground. The International Space Station (which is closer in size to one of those floating leaves) is visible from the ground. These tree things would be easily visible, even if they weren't Moon-sized.

From the size of the Earth at the bottom of the page, I think we're not far enough away from the planet to be in geosynchronous orbit. But we're higher than the near-Earth orbit where the ISS lives.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #67 on: 20 Feb 2017, 08:28 »

I had a thought. Depending on whether the tree is in geostationary orbit and its mass relative to the moon, its quite possible that the planet would experience arboreal eclipses as the tree passes in front of the moon and the sun.
In principle, there's a way to estimate the orbital radius of the tree by looking at the curvature of Earth's image as seen from the spaceship (assuming that the flyer is in roughly the same orbit as the tree), since the radius of the resulting circle can be estimated from its curvature. Given the apparent radius, we can then compute the distance between Earth's center and the spaceship by a straightforward application of plane analytic geometry.

That would permit anyone to determine whether the tree is in geosynchronous orbit.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #68 on: 20 Feb 2017, 09:06 »

In principle, there's a way to estimate the orbital radius of the tree by looking at the curvature of Earth's image as seen from the spaceship (assuming that the flyer is in roughly the same orbit as the tree), since the radius of the resulting circle can be estimated from its curvature. Given the apparent radius, we can then compute the distance between Earth's center and the spaceship by a straightforward application of plane analytic geometry.

That would permit anyone to determine whether the tree is in geosynchronous orbit.

That would depend on the focal length of the "camera" used in the making of the image. A telephoto lens would foreshorten distances, making the planet seem nearer, with a larger apparent radius. A wide-angle lens would have the opposite effect.

Granted, these are drawings rather than photos. But the principle is the same: apparent radius is a subjective quality based on foreshortening, as chosen by the artist.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #69 on: 20 Feb 2017, 09:38 »

Das a very big tree.

I'm worried for Gavia. That looks like fear on her face to me.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #70 on: 20 Feb 2017, 09:43 »

In principle, there's a way to estimate the orbital radius of the tree by looking at the curvature of Earth's image as seen from the spaceship (assuming that the flyer is in roughly the same orbit as the tree), since the radius of the resulting circle can be estimated from its curvature. Given the apparent radius, we can then compute the distance between Earth's center and the spaceship by a straightforward application of plane analytic geometry.

That would permit anyone to determine whether the tree is in geosynchronous orbit.

That would depend on the focal length of the "camera" used in the making of the image. A telephoto lens would foreshorten distances, making the planet seem nearer, with a larger apparent radius. A wide-angle lens would have the opposite effect.

Granted, these are drawings rather than photos. But the principle is the same: apparent radius is a subjective quality based on foreshortening, as chosen by the artist.
Actually, no.

Any three point on a circle define that circle completely. Because the earth is a sphere, the image of the earth through any (reasonable) camera is also a circle.  In addition, each viewpoint line is perpendicular to the line which runs from the point at which that line touches the sphere to the radius. (Using the fact that the Earth is a sphere.) Now we have a tetrahedron about which we know a great deal (some faces are isosceles triangles, others are right triangles, and we have a bunch edges.) I'm going to assert without proof that we have enough data to reconstruct the solid completely, from which we can actually compute the distance to the Earth's center.

(ETA: also, we know the exact length of the edges which run from each point were the line from the eye to the point at which the ray grazes the sphere, since we know the radius of the Earth.)

But, as you say, this is a pure and absurd exercise, since Jeph drew it and there's no relationship between the drawing and reality.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #71 on: 20 Feb 2017, 09:59 »

In principle, there's a way to estimate the orbital radius of the tree by looking at the curvature of Earth's image as seen from the spaceship (assuming that the flyer is in roughly the same orbit as the tree), since the radius of the resulting circle can be estimated from its curvature. Given the apparent radius, we can then compute the distance between Earth's center and the spaceship by a straightforward application of plane analytic geometry.

That would permit anyone to determine whether the tree is in geosynchronous orbit.

That would depend on the focal length of the "camera" used in the making of the image. A telephoto lens would foreshorten distances, making the planet seem nearer, with a larger apparent radius. A wide-angle lens would have the opposite effect.

Granted, these are drawings rather than photos. But the principle is the same: apparent radius is a subjective quality based on foreshortening, as chosen by the artist.
Actually, no.

Any three point on a circle define that circle completely. Because the earth is a sphere, the image of the earth through any (reasonable) camera is also a circle.  In addition, each viewpoint line is perpendicular to the line which runs from the point at which that line touches the sphere to the radius. (Using the fact that the Earth is a sphere.) Now we have a tetrahedron about which we know a great deal (some faces are isosceles triangles, others are right triangles, and we have a bunch edges.) I'm going to assert without proof that we have enough data to reconstruct the solid completely, from which we can actually compute the distance to the Earth's center.

(ETA: also, we know the exact length of the edges which run from each point were the line from the eye to the point at which the ray grazes the sphere, since we know the radius of the Earth.)

But, as you say, this is a pure and absurd exercise, since Jeph drew it and there's no relationship between the drawing and reality.
Oops. No, you'r right. Sorry.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #72 on: 20 Feb 2017, 14:40 »


(ETA: also, we know the exact length of the edges which run from each point were the line from the eye to the point at which the ray grazes the sphere, since we know the radius of the Earth.)


No, we don't know that length. That length is what you are trying to determine.

Consider this diagram:

If you were hanging in space, looking at the Earth, you would be able to measure Angle C. With that measurement, plus knowledge of the Earth's radius, you could then determine the length of sides A and B using trigonometry.

But we're not hanging in space. All we have is a flat image. Depending on the focal length of the camera used to capture the image, both Observer 1 and Observer 2 could capture an identically sized image of the Earth (Observer 2 would just have to zoom in a bit). Given that is the case, there's no way to tell what Angle C is, using only the photo. Without that known measurement, there's no way to solve for A or B.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #73 on: 20 Feb 2017, 15:50 »

Das a very big tree.

I'm worried for Gavia. That looks like fear on her face to me.

I think she's afraid of what Pate will do next.  She's seen what Church can do and knows that Pate won't take no for an answer.  I also think that she's in denial about the benevolence of the Praeses and fears the revelation that she and her brother were just pawns in a grand scheme that could've got them killed.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #74 on: 20 Feb 2017, 20:02 »

So basically...there's a giant tree in space whose base looks like a giant butt?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #75 on: 21 Feb 2017, 11:51 »

Perhaps where this nearest Praeses is happens to be is in a place where it wasn't visible to them from where they were on Earth.   Maybe it's visible to someone?  Depending on how populated the planet is.    Unless of course there's some sort of field around Praeses  that shields from view past a certain distance.   Right, probably just easier to chalk up the presentation of things to artistic license.   

Gavia's look is somewhat confusing, maybe she's never been outside looking in though.   Ardent seems  happy, to see it and that his command worked (with another teleport?).   Sedna is surprised with a sort of wonder, maybe the simple life is too familiar after so long. And,  Pate's nearly terrified.   He seems to rather keep demonstrating how little he actually knows in detail about anything, his information sources incomplete and lacking, not plain, clear and illustrative.      Oh, where are Alice and Church, maybe that's not important.   

One might imagine that if those who imparted these tech abilities in Ardent might have had something very far more grand in mind then just long-term interference, subterfuge of things like water pumps in that one town spreading out to corrupt the local folk, given what we've seen from these abilities.      Perhaps the point was providing extremely advanced  tech that might be used for (or was certainly going to be used for) what's going on now with them getting here.   Whoever it is they want for whatever reason.  What might the Praeses know about those planetside?  Something new in the works?  Random chance?     Either way, if they have the ability to create things that give abilities to Ardent that allow the things he's been doing, they likely then aren't going to be something that Pate can control or bully or even impact at all, maybe that's what he's learning fast.   

The king of ant-town might be mighty in his own realm, lord of all he surveys and more.  Yet all of his best and worst legions of troops would find themselves quite unable to even get to  the Balaenoptera musculus, much less harm or defeat them.  Ooops.      Laser to the moon.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #76 on: 21 Feb 2017, 14:15 »

One might imagine that if those who imparted these tech abilities in Ardent might have had something very far more grand in mind then just long-term interference, subterfuge of things like water pumps in that one town spreading out to corrupt the local folk, given what we've seen from these abilities.      Perhaps the point was providing extremely advanced  tech that might be used for (or was certainly going to be used for) what's going on now with them getting here.   Whoever it is they want for whatever reason.  What might the Praeses know about those planetside?  Something new in the works?  Random chance?     Either way, if they have the ability to create things that give abilities to Ardent that allow the things he's been doing, they likely then aren't going to be something that Pate can control or bully or even impact at all, maybe that's what he's learning fast.   

Considering all the fantastic possibilities demonstrated by Ardent's ability I'd find it hard to believe that the Praeses couldn't monitor its use.  They probably know that he turned an ancient space fighter into a teleporting bubble ship and can shut it down at any time it becomes a problem for them.  It's still unclear as to what their scheme is, but most likely they wanted to get those that would oppose their invasion of Earth out of the way.  Pate may be an exception.  If he's smart he'll accept their offer to be an exalted middle man since I doubt he's going to get anything better.  Given his expression I think he's so in awe of what he sees he might just forget to throw his weight around and readily agree without the Praeses providing a demonstration that would probably be aimed at Church. 

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #77 on: 21 Feb 2017, 15:24 »

It will be intersting to see hat happens after they ENTer the Habitat.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #78 on: 21 Feb 2017, 19:49 »

Considering all the fantastic possibilities demonstrated by Ardent's ability I'd find it hard to believe that the Praeses couldn't monitor its use.  They probably know that he turned an ancient space fighter into a teleporting bubble ship and can shut it down at any time it becomes a problem for them.  It's still unclear as to what their scheme is, but most likely they wanted to get those that would oppose their invasion of Earth out of the way.  Pate may be an exception.  If he's smart he'll accept their offer to be an exalted middle man since I doubt he's going to get anything better.  Given his expression I think he's so in awe of what he sees he might just forget to throw his weight around and readily agree without the Praeses providing a demonstration that would probably be aimed at Church.

Why would they offer Pate anything? His only leverage is Church, and it's not clear how much that means in this context. I could see them pushing Church out into space to flail aimlessly as he floats in orbit. At which point Pate is all alone up against a pair of pissed-off immortals whose friend he had murdered.

I'm guessing the whole point of Operation Blue Boy was to collect Alice and bring her up to the orbitals. Maybe Sedna too, but it's hard to see how they could have foreseen that. Pate is probably just an extra baseline human they have no use for. Church might be a bit of a bonus, provided they don't end up having to space him.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #79 on: 21 Feb 2017, 23:13 »

Why would they offer Pate anything?

Because he offers them something that they want: Political power on the planet's surface without having to go through the effort and expense of conquering anything as an initial step.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #80 on: 22 Feb 2017, 04:54 »

Considering all the fantastic possibilities demonstrated by Ardent's ability I'd find it hard to believe that the Praeses couldn't monitor its use.  They probably know that he turned an ancient space fighter into a teleporting bubble ship and can shut it down at any time it becomes a problem for them.  It's still unclear as to what their scheme is, but most likely they wanted to get those that would oppose their invasion of Earth out of the way.  Pate may be an exception.  If he's smart he'll accept their offer to be an exalted middle man since I doubt he's going to get anything better.  Given his expression I think he's so in awe of what he sees he might just forget to throw his weight around and readily agree without the Praeses providing a demonstration that would probably be aimed at Church.

Why would they offer Pate anything? His only leverage is Church, and it's not clear how much that means in this context. I could see them pushing Church out into space to flail aimlessly as he floats in orbit. At which point Pate is all alone up against a pair of pissed-off immortals whose friend he had murdered.

I'm guessing the whole point of Operation Blue Boy was to collect Alice and bring her up to the orbitals. Maybe Sedna too, but it's hard to see how they could have foreseen that. Pate is probably just an extra baseline human they have no use for. Church might be a bit of a bonus, provided they don't end up having to space him.

The Praeses plan will go more smoothly if its being carried out by a human most people know.  And if there are unexpected difficulties Pate can be the scapegoat too.  I think the scheme was to collect Alice and Church, however, Sedna is just a bonus.  She could be a problem, but since she largely kept to her self by the time she realized what was up it would probably be too late to do anything.  Alice told Gavia that if her people invaded she'd see to it that the losses would be catastrophic so she's fairly confident that she could defeat an invasion force and it's safe to say Church would have no problems, but that was when they were on Earth.  Now they're in space and there could be plenty of countermeasures to neutralize the immortals which leaves Earth virtually defenseless.  However, it Pate controls Church and he's willing to be their viceroy then they'll probably let him return since he would expedite their conquest immensely.

Of course if Pate does turn on the Praeses I could see things going down a little something like this: 
   
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #81 on: 22 Feb 2017, 07:56 »

It would be funny if after all is said and done that the Praeses just wanted Alice and Sedna as gardeners and give each a tray of saplings to take back home to start groves of Earthian Praese .
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #82 on: 22 Feb 2017, 14:42 »

OMG!!!

IT'S A JURAIAN TREE SHIP!!!!!


Meah!!      :-D


Or one of the Templar Treeships from Dan Simmons' "Hyperion".
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #83 on: 24 Feb 2017, 12:31 »

Unless, whatever whoever the Praeses is are, they don't actually have any plans.   No changing or  invading Earth, no capturing its more powerful denizens, perhaps nothing in particular to begin with.    Or maybe the entity thing that captured and used Gavia is a or the end target for something or another (or they its target).  ?   

If the Praeses are distinct and sentient and have goals, those goals might not be anything a human would understand or want.   If so, humans identifying happenings might not get it in other than terms they understand them.   Alice was rather vague, perhaps even paranoid about things, and wasn't all that specific about it either.  Whatever that is, whatever she thinks about the Praeses,  might not actually be correct .

Either way, it would seem the odds are, whatever the truth about plans or not, that they are not worried about anyone (or all) in the spacecraft.   Or something like that what they're worried about is not exactly what people would be concerned with or necessarily contextualize properly.
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OldGoat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #84 on: 25 Feb 2017, 13:27 »

Gavia's look is somewhat confusing, maybe she's never been outside looking in though.   Ardent seems  happy, to see it and that his command worked (with another teleport?).   Sedna is surprised with a sort of wonder, maybe the simple life is too familiar after so long. And,  Pate's nearly terrified.   He seems to rather keep demonstrating how little he actually knows in detail about anything, his information sources incomplete and lacking, not plain, clear and illustrative.     
This.  Pate realizes that he's bit off 'way more than he can chew, and even Church doesn't have the chops to help him gnaw through it.

Ardent was Pate bait.
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Method of Madness

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - February 2017
« Reply #85 on: 26 Feb 2017, 06:19 »

Kinda wish we saw Alice's reaction (I assume Church is still...not sleeping but pretending to?)
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