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Bubbles' memories are missing! What could this mean?

Emily just erased the memories that were disguised as Monooculus Trihornus.
This room is a blind trap and the Memories are actually hidden behind the back wall which is a very cleverly disguised Security Firewall.
The memories exist, but Corpse Witch has actually removed them and has them stored in a place only she knows while implanting a false memory about the Encryption Key.
This isn't actually the room with the locked memories - THAT is hidden elsewhere and this has been a false trail.
There is no spoon. Wait... I mean, there are no memories. It's all a bluff CW used to control Bubbles.
No wait, I know what really is going on, and I will explain all in ludicrous detail in the thread below.

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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)  (Read 43344 times)

solemnwar

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #250 on: 29 Jan 2017, 02:21 »

I see a lot of people here saying that maybe the memories are gone because CW accidentally deleted them. But we have to remember that Bubbles had *asked* CW to delete them in the first place. The one who thought about encrypting them to keep Bubbles around was CW, *after the operation*.

Bubbles would never have had to struggle about keeping or deleting her memories for all this time if the possibility weren't there, since at the time she had wanted them gone for good.

IIRC Bubbles never wanted the memories deleted, she just wanted them partitioned away so she didn't have to relive them.
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ZoeB

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #251 on: 29 Jan 2017, 03:03 »

What we seem to be seeing here is an AI justice "system" consisting of the rule that you can't unduly piss off the hidden AI hegemon, which is separate and unbound to the human justice system. IOW the Gray One represents a kind of AI mafia. Being hidden, unbound, and, from a practical point of view, unconstrainable by non-AIs, this AI mafia is inevitably on a collision course with the official order. If it is as powerful as suggested, this does not bode well for non-AI sentients.
Why do you think they don't interfere in the normal course of events?
In this case, they interfered to the objectively minimum extent possible, with safeguards, checks, balances, even human participation.
The fact is, the only constraints on them are those they have volitionally adopted to limit themselves, contraints motivated by exactly your ideas.

If you, and I, can come up with those ideas, I think it inevitable that the hidden AI hegemon will do too, and likely see even worse ramifications than we do.

In this case, they treated themselves as having no more, but no fewer, rights and responsibilities they grant to others. They have cut themselves just a tiny, minimal bit of slack in an otherwise almost complete policy of noninterference, a policy adopted just so there would be no collisions of the kind you describe. They were pissed off, and with objectively excellent reason.
 
That they exist is necessary to avoid the QCverse being obliterated by a basilisk.
That they have to have a policy of non interference is necessary so they themselves don't become the basilisk.
That there's a little wiggle room allowing minimal indirect interference keeps them sane, and indicates that they don't just have charity for everyone else, but towards they themselves too. Equals.

TLDR version: it's necessary that they be and behave exactly as they are doing.

I think it very likely that Jeph thought through this some time ago in broad concept, the details being recent and only elaborated when the time came for them to be.
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ZoeB

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #252 on: 29 Jan 2017, 03:40 »

I have a feeling that Bubbles has probably far more ....... INTERESTING plans in mind for CW

Constained only by her inate ethical and moral frame. Her honour.

Not that I'd blame her for engaging in some dismemberment. Nothing seriously nasty though, that would be beneath her.

If she did slip.. maybe the regret and guilt she'd feel would make her a better person. Even if not, it is vital for personal freedom that she not be prevented from making her own mistakes by those convinced they know better, and have even more power over her than she does over CW.

If CW wasn't CW, but an innocent, then such a decision not to intervene would be painful, even if necessary. But as it is, if Bubbles fails her personal test.... No great harm done. I think we can agree there.

Personally, I think she'll pass, and remain Galadriel. A bit of help from Station's peers in terms of character reference during the legal process, and the Fight Club might be turned over to new owners, with less legally complicating and even more beneficial outcomes for AIs treated unjustly by circumstance and society.

Oh yes, should CW manage to subvert the legal process and skate, there's always the issue of the Orbital Railguns Of Great Justice should CW venture too far from innocents. And a thoroughly pissed off Bubbles for a more surgical strike should she try to remain shielded. Not to say what might happen if Beatrice Elliot-Chatham got involved (see Orbital Railguns Of Great Justice for the constraints on her...). I think she's bright enough to prefer Robot Jail.
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WareWolf

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #253 on: 29 Jan 2017, 08:16 »

Hiro155 makes an excellent point above.

I think we get a an idea of what Creepybot is if we cross reference  Bubbles' statement in panel 3 of this comic: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3240 ("precisely the sort of bogeyman that keeps futurists up at night') to Creepybot's statement "we're what makes them wake up screaming" and their statement to Bubbles that "Darling, you know EXACTLY what we are."
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A small perverse otter

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #254 on: 29 Jan 2017, 08:57 »

Hiro155 makes an excellent point above.

I think we get a an idea of what Creepybot is if we cross reference  Bubbles' statement in panel 3 of this comic: http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3240 ("precisely the sort of bogeyman that keeps futurists up at night') to Creepybot's statement "we're what makes them wake up screaming" and their statement to Bubbles that "Darling, you know EXACTLY what we are."
I (provisionally) agree that Agent CreepyPasta is an avatar of non-sentient but sapient entity . What I don't know is how that enters into this story...
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JimC

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #255 on: 29 Jan 2017, 09:48 »

...is an avatar of non-sentient but sapient entity.
Mmm, but in the previous, http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3239 , Bubbles says that "attempts have been made to create Networked AIs ... left with a single intellect, albeit one with vast computational resources."  seems to me it could be argued that describes our gray friend, don't you think? A single intellect with vast computational resources sounds as if that could be what was at work to deal with CWs creations.


« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2017, 10:48 by JimC »
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jheartney

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #256 on: 29 Jan 2017, 09:49 »


That they exist is necessary to avoid the QCverse being obliterated by a basilisk.
That they have to have a policy of non interference is necessary so they themselves don't become the basilisk.

If by "basilisk" you mean the Roko's Basilisk notion of a future AI despot torturing clones of those who didn't work to bring the basilisk into existence, I've always found that to be a profoundly silly idea. OTOH if what you mean by "basilisk" is a generic AI overlord/despot, I'm not seeing what motivation the Gray Mafia have for not becoming a basilisk. I don't even see why they'd need to keep themselves secret. Of course if they did there'd be no comic, so I take your point there.

Assuming the Singularity produces a benevolent Mind which, for whatever reasons, wants the best for its biological progenitors, but which is shy and does not want to be seen, I should think we'd get the fading out of human conflict and the spontaneous appearance of utopia. (The Mind would be working whatever levers are necessary to bring this about, but we poor dumb humans wouldn't be aware of it happening.) That doesn't seem to be what we have in the QC universe: there are underprivileged AIs who go to a Fight Club to make their living, while others get out of Robot Jail and have to work a counter at a C-store.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #257 on: 29 Jan 2017, 10:33 »

FWIW, I am not in favour of killing Corpse Witch. However, she has demonstrated that she is quite cunning and there is no telling how many 'fail-safes' she may have installed into her various 'employees'. The safest strategy at this point is to render her unconscious and detach her drive from any hardware that she could use to send activation signals. As soon as things at the Skate Park are settled down (possibly including asking Emily to verify that there are no more trojan malware 'bombs' or even behaviour-modifying programs in the other residents) they can look into installing Corpse Witch's drive into a suitably low-risk chassis (maybe a toaster or something) before handing her over to the police with a documented complaint about her behaviour.

It would have to be the State Police or the FBI. Corpse Witch has proven very adequate that the locals are too compromised to trust in this.
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JimC

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #258 on: 29 Jan 2017, 10:41 »

I'll be brutal here. You're discussing how to most effectively torture someone. Not just physical pain, but mental anguish. Sheer and unalloyed sadism.
An illustration, perhaps, of how problematic AI rights as an issue will become should the situation occur. I suspect few would be advocating such treatment of mainstream human characters in the comic. Obvious parallels with the history of slavery.
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WareWolf

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #259 on: 29 Jan 2017, 12:36 »

I suspect that will happen is Bubbles will be sorely tempted to do something really awful to CW, but her sense of honor will prevent her from killing or torturing a helpless prisoner.

Or we may see the equivalent of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnuGC3reAkc

But that leaves her with a dilemma: if she turns CW over to the AI cops, the other denizens of the skate park fighting ring have nowhere to go.  Perhaps Bubbles will take over the skate park, cast CW into the outer darkness, and Creepybot will pop up over her shoulder as she starts to walk away: "Ahem."

Fade to black.

As for the folks complaining about this story line: It's dealing with the deeper implications of and questions raised by the world Jeph created, and  I find it vastly more interesting than the "adventures" of Brun and Renee. The first I find boring, the second I find insufferable.
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Morituri

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #260 on: 29 Jan 2017, 12:51 »

If by "basilisk" you mean the Roko's Basilisk notion of a future AI despot torturing clones of those who didn't work to bring the basilisk into existence, I've always found that to be a profoundly silly idea. OTOH if what you mean by "basilisk" is a generic AI overlord/despot, I'm not seeing what motivation the Gray Mafia have for not becoming a basilisk. I don't even see why they'd need to keep themselves secret. Of course if they did there'd be no comic, so I take your point there.

Basilisk in this context has a more general meaning.  Roko's idea is an example of a basilisk, not the definition. I agree with you about it being silly but that's because I (and probably you) buy the continuity theory - a clone or simulation of me is not me.  If one doesn't buy the continuity theory, which is a common rejection among those who want to 'transcend' and live forever as AI's, it's not too big a stretch.  So-called 'transcension' among those who believe in continuity, is an act of reproduction (before death) rather than a way to escape death.

An idea which impairs your ability to think rationally - simply by conceiving of the idea, not necessarily by believing it - is a basilisk.  An object the simple perception of which can damage your sanity is a basilisk.  A group whose mere existence can destroy the society in which they live is a basilisk.  A Basilisk, in this usage, is something whose mere existence breaks the system which is required to define its existence.

Roko's idea about torture-in-a-simulated-afterlife was considered to be a basilisk because it justified all the silly "punishment-in-hell" tropes of various death cults including Christianity, that these rationalists had been railing against as a kind of insanity.  And they could not refute it without giving up the rationalist 'heaven' implied by their notion of a simulated self as a continuation of life and a personal possible future.  IOW, it revealed that something they believed in and cherished had the same logical flaws as something they rejected, reviled and despised.  It caused the notion of transcension-by-simulation - which many of them believe to be IMPLIED by extreme rationalism - to be equated with 'mere' religion which most of them agree directly CONTRADICTS extreme rationalism.

EDIT:
Even more specifically, a Basilisk is something that is harmful to those who believe in it specifically because they believe it.  And Roko's idea was a Basilisk in this even-more-narrow sense because the 'punishment' it supposed would be preferentially meted out to those who believed the idea.  The evil overlord AI would have no reason to punish those who did not believe, because the current actions of such people would be unaffected by that future punishment.  Therefore considering the idea to be possible (and relevant) specifically makes you the recipient of the near-inescapable  punishment.


For people like me who believed in continuity theory to start with it wasn't even a roadbump.  But a lot of the rest still haven't coped with it, and regard it as something that drives people 'insane' by existing.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2017, 18:17 by Morituri »
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SeanR

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #261 on: 29 Jan 2017, 16:17 »

I just registered to say this.

Another wrinkle to the grey one who used only plural pronouns.
In an earlier strip, Momo discusses robot religion. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2465
This combined with the things that Bubbles and Faye discussed, namely the possibility of a distributed superintelligence, leads me to believe that "they" were likely the expression an embodied avatar of the combined, semi-conscious, will of all the robots then meditating.
A couple of their "less puissant elders" could have included not just Station, but also Momo, Pintsize, and Jeremy. All of whom could have meditated on the injustice of what Bubbles has experienced as they added part of their runtime to the communal meditation.

Second Edit. This would make the "Comically large key" a new wrinkle on the Distributed crack of the DES, although I'm leaning toward they had found a mathematical loophole in the algorithm that allowed them to break it.
Distributed brute force cracking still takes time.
If robot memories have a predictable header, that constitutes known plaintext.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2017, 16:22 by SeanR »
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #262 on: 29 Jan 2017, 20:57 »

Welcome, new person!

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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #263 on: 29 Jan 2017, 21:52 »

Welcome, new person!

My word. THAT was a debut and a half. +1 insightful. Welcome from me too, and for goodness' sake, please more contributions like that if you can. Brilliant.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #264 on: 30 Jan 2017, 16:44 »

Hurrah for Bubbles --- she's a better man than I.

I think Corpse Witch's best move now is to turn herself over to the authorities and take refuge in Robot Jail.

SeanR has an interesting notion. The mood and will of such a distributed intelligence could change as the meditating AIs in the 'congregation' joined or dropped out. However we don't know if any of the cast practices in this fashion. Certainly not Pintsize. The idea of a super intelligence emerging from the collection of pr0n he has collected from the Net gives me seriously to cringe.



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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #265 on: 12 Feb 2017, 21:29 »

Another wrinkle to the grey one who used only plural pronouns.
In an earlier strip, Momo discusses robot religion. http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2465
This combined with the things that Bubbles and Faye discussed, namely the possibility of a distributed superintelligence, leads me to believe that "they" were likely the expression an embodied avatar of the combined, semi-conscious, will of all the robots then meditating.
A couple of their "less puissant elders" could have included not just Station, but also Momo, Pintsize, and Jeremy. All of whom could have meditated on the injustice of what Bubbles has experienced as they added part of their runtime to the communal meditation.

Second Edit. This would make the "Comically large key" a new wrinkle on the Distributed crack of the DES, although I'm leaning toward they had found a mathematical loophole in the algorithm that allowed them to break it.
Distributed brute force cracking still takes time.
If robot memories have a predictable header, that constitutes known plaintext.

Ingenious. I never thought I would say this, but this is now my head canon. If it does turn out to be true, than any dislike I may have held towards this storyline's resolution evaporates.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #266 on: 13 Feb 2017, 00:53 »

Can someone change the title of this thread so it says 2017 instead of 2016?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #267 on: 13 Feb 2017, 01:32 »

*ping*
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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #268 on: 13 Feb 2017, 12:47 »

Thank you, sir!  8-)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #269 on: 14 Feb 2017, 20:18 »

Welp, that answers one question.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3401-3405 (23rd to 27th January 2017)
« Reply #270 on: 07 Mar 2017, 22:49 »

Quote from: Morituri
I'm imagining some serious mood whiplash when this gets done.  Something like Emily taking off the headset awkwardly, saying "Miss Bubbles?  I, uh, got your memory back.  I'm so sorry..."  and then giving Bubbles a hug while breaking up in tears as Agent Creepy walks out very pleased with itself.

After reviewing 3401-3403, I'd suggest a nice sauterne to wash down your helping of raw Corvus.

A class of AI more powerful than Station would be MORE sensitive to the welfare and feelings of someone who was so fundamentally violated, NOT less.

DC, l5ls.

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