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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)  (Read 11515 times)

JimC

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #150 on: 20 Apr 2017, 13:09 »

More shipping than the Panama canal here at the moment...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #151 on: 20 Apr 2017, 13:20 »

Quote from: Bubbles
You cannot modify individual memories

Her memory is known to work differently from one of today's file systems, then.
Indeed.

When Emily is sent in to try and recover those memories, its outright stated by AIbino that they created an interface to allow Emily to actually perceive access to Bubbles' memories. We have no point of reference to how memories would be stored in an AI, meaning that the AIbino needed to create a filter to make it easier for Emily (and by extension, us) to navigate.

Would a large cylindrical shape, filled with doors be easier to get through than, say, an infinitely complex web of constructed connections numbering in the billions?

Also, I just can't see AI memories being recorded like:
3/4_4:55pm_repaired_punchbot_again.mem
4/4_1:25pm_faye_gas_station_burrito_lunch.mem
4/4_1:30pm_faye_regretting_gas_station_burrito.mem


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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #152 on: 20 Apr 2017, 14:28 »

Quote from: Bubbles
You cannot modify individual memories

Her memory is known to work differently from one of today's file systems, then.

At least not all of it - part of it may well be capable of storing long strings of data. But humans can do that, too - we even train capabilities like that, e.g. memorizing poems in school, or 'cram learning'.

Remember that files & folders are abstractions of human external memory storage - they complement our memory, they don't replace it. Just as conventional computers are meant to complement symbolic manipulation abilities and logic abilities that we are capable of, but find it hard to execute flawlessly, every time (*).

I'd go farther and ask: Why would AI's find it even useful to be able to recall files from internal memory when they can wirelessly access human-readable external storage? There's no indication that QC-verse-AI can download learned capabilities - i.e. the result of the processing of data - in a Matrix-y way ("I need to be able to fly a Bell 212 helicopter ..."). It seems they have to 'work through' information in order to 'make it their own', just as we have to.

So why would they clutter their internal storage with raw, unprocessed data?



(*) That was actually at least as important a reason for their invention as sheer speed - the most famous incident being the Royal Navy's competition that led to Babagge's difference engine. Turns out that no matter how many humans you throw at the problem of calculating logarithm tables for nautical navigation, no matter how many rows of human 'error-checking computers' you add, there's no guarantee that they'll not make a mistake that'll sink a ship later on. Which actually happened.
« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2017, 14:38 by Case »
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Mehre

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #153 on: 20 Apr 2017, 14:41 »

Yes i do have CS-background, specializing in neural networks, currently finishing degree and it looks like i will go on to  postgrad.

What makes you think that QC-verse AI don't incorporate building blocks that function like neural networks? ...

Nothing in the comic i remember suggested it really, although it may be in some form. As im no physicist, it sounded to me as technobabble when i read it and didnt really paid attention to it. I guess it could be some form of implementing neural networks, however as implementation details change so does many other things. Typical nn's in computers and in biology are so vastly different, that some things just doesnt translate (and there are many things we do not know about biological nn's). If this was some yet different form of concept it may not have same characteristics.  In short,  better safe than sorry.

Quote
Could you elaborate on the meaning of those two terms? And how they relate to memory? From what I've found, the term 'subsymbolic' relates to processing, not necessary storage (though the latter is a part of the former, to some degree):

Its just matter of working with information. In past people tried symbolic approach(i.e knowledge systems, math logic and such) and while they made great advances, they found out it has its weaknesses. Since then it always kinda oscillated, currently subsymbolic is on top, but that can change. In neural networks, information is distributed over many neurons and vice versa, thus creating something which resembles chaos even if it is not. I hope it makes things clearer, although i doubt it. I will try to find some good source.

Yeah, we are capable of both. Why? Im not sure, neuroscientist would be better suited for that, but if i would have to guess we kinda emulate it. Or it is matter of abstraction/scope, similar way to how physics theories can be so fundamentally different at different scopes. Turing machines(not our class of computets), RAM machines (our class of computers) and neural networks are proven to be equivalent in types of problems they can solve and they can emulate each other. Thus i would say that parts of our mind emulate symbolic approach. And so we get to your last question, no it is not divide between machine/human divide, because there isnt any divide to speak of. We can do both, so can our computer and any other computational model at par with these three.

Quote
..i can memorize notebook..

What i meant by those notebooks in mind is that this hypothetical AI doesnt need to remember it cause she has it on her hard drive. Its not part of her model, but she can read it at will. What you are describing are various types of our human memory. Imagine Siri or some assistant like that, on your phone, hovewer advanced you like. She doesnt need to remember your itinerary because she can access your files at will, at the same time those files are not part of her being/model/software/stuff. Thats not how our memory works, even if it can do same stuff.

Edit: as to why would AI use such file based memory...look at Pintsize :D
« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2017, 15:05 by Mehre »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #154 on: 20 Apr 2017, 16:10 »

Jeph once said that such Human/AI relationships  do exist, but he would probably never explore it 'In Comic'.  (I'm paraphrasing here, so excuse  me  if I'm not being entirely accurate).   It may or may not be that he's decided to do so.


Still, they do look cute together, even if  in the long run they wind up as close as sisters.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #155 on: 20 Apr 2017, 16:11 »

Edit: as to why would AI use such file based memory...look at Pintsize :D

I find it slightly troubling how easily modern CS-applications are justified with the "Because Pron!"-argument ...

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« Last Edit: 20 Apr 2017, 16:34 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #156 on: 20 Apr 2017, 17:33 »

Legally, in the absence of her name on the lease, I don't think Claire is considered to be living in the apartment unless she gets mail delivered there. She can have all her stuff there, spend all her non-working hours there, and still not be an actual occupant.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #157 on: 20 Apr 2017, 17:42 »

Quote from: Claire
"Wait a minute, do I live here?!"

Ah! One of those mornings ...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #158 on: 20 Apr 2017, 18:08 »

Legally, in the absence of her name on the lease, I don't think Claire is considered to be living in the apartment unless she gets mail delivered there. She can have all her stuff there, spend all her non-working hours there, and still not be an actual occupant.

That depends on your residential laws. Where I come from, I think you are considered to be an occupant if you spend more than 50% of your non working time at the residence, but I can't be sure.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #159 on: 20 Apr 2017, 18:12 »

Legally, in the absence of her name on the lease, I don't think Claire is considered to be living in the apartment unless she gets mail delivered there. She can have all her stuff there, spend all her non-working hours there, and still not be an actual occupant.

There probably isn't an issue with the landlord.  Someone who's a stickler for rules would've evicted on account of Pintsize years ago, but Bubbles has difficulty to determining why something is serious and in this case Claire is shocked to realize she's living with her boyfriend.  I imagine it's a big step for her and it just happened.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #160 on: 20 Apr 2017, 19:29 »

This takes me back to one of the early episodes of Big Bang theory where Sheldon informs Leonard that his girlfriend has moved in without him noticing.

Also on the mid week comics I would've thought that the weight of Bubble's armour would have collapsed the bed.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #161 on: 20 Apr 2017, 20:51 »

Hmmm....a budding Claire/Bubbles friendship.  When Claire tells her that she's transitioned genders, will that make Bubbles realize, "I don't HAVE to occupy this combat 'droid chassis."?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #162 on: 20 Apr 2017, 21:29 »

I'd like to give a shoutout to everyone for being so mature in debating the nature of Faye's and Bubbles's relationship.

It's a nice change of pace from most fandoms hurling insults and accusations at those they disagree with.

*bows sincerely*
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #163 on: 20 Apr 2017, 21:32 »

Morning Claire is so cute, especially when she's winking.  :wink:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #164 on: 20 Apr 2017, 22:55 »

Hmmm....a budding Claire/Bubbles friendship.  When Claire tells her that she's transitioned genders, will that make Bubbles realize, "I don't HAVE to occupy this combat 'droid chassis."?

What is this interest in Bubbles dispensing with her combat chassis?  There's been a lot said that she doesn't need to hold onto the past, but did anyone ever think that the chassis she has is important for the line of work they want to get into?  Bubbles can lift more than an average AI chassis and since he has armor plating she doesn't need shielding when welding or soldering.  It makes sense to keep a utilitarian chassis for work purposes.  It would be like trading in a working tow truck for a convertible.   
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #165 on: 20 Apr 2017, 23:25 »

This takes me back to one of the early episodes of Big Bang theory where Sheldon informs Leonard that his girlfriend has moved in without him noticing.

Also on the mid week comics I would've thought that the weight of Bubble's armour would have collapsed the bed.

I'll hand wave it with 'They live with Pintsize, so precautionary measures.'
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BenRG

Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #166 on: 20 Apr 2017, 23:36 »

Claire has just had the experience of many other a person who has moved in with their Significant Other without actually knowing it. Individually, every element of the move was made for its own reason (mostly convenience) or even without any real conscious decision-making process at all. Then, one morning, you wake up and realise that you only technically are still resident at your previous domicile!

Poor Claire! Such a shocking revelation! Still, I think that she'll get over it. First though, she's going to have to deal with Marten and Faye teasing her about it (and Bubbles too, in her quiet way). I wonder if the angst from this realisation is going to be the  theme of next week's strips, along with Marten and Faye assuring Claire that it's okay really.

I'm still wondering if Jeph is ultimately planning for a grand move of the entire Apartment Block Cast (including Hannelore) to that mansion that Hanners mentioned a while back as her fantasy. Alternately, maybe he's moving towards a weird 'reverse move' plot where they move to Claire's old house and her mother moves to the apartment because she doesn't want such a huge space more-or-less to herself anymore.

EDIT
Fixed a whole load o' typos and grammar errors
« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2017, 00:01 by BenRG »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #167 on: 20 Apr 2017, 23:51 »

Yes, even if the individual can regenerate neurons. Deadpool should have worse amnesia than Logan.

He did, for the longest time. Granted, that was actually because he was being given a ton of amnesia drugs, going by a semi-recent retcon, but it's been a recurring plot point in the comics that he can't remember most of his past.

Not at all related to the comic but goddamnit my nerdery will not go unheard.
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Case

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #168 on: 21 Apr 2017, 00:04 »

Yes, even if the individual can regenerate neurons. Deadpool should have worse amnesia than Logan.

He did, for the longest time. Granted, that was actually because he was being given a ton of amnesia drugs, going by a semi-recent retcon, but it's been a recurring plot point in the comics that he can't remember most of his past.

Deadpool should have some serious bodily odor issues ...

Not at all related to the comic but goddamnit my nerdery will not go unheard.

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #169 on: 21 Apr 2017, 00:08 »

Alternately, maybe he's moving towards a weird 'reverse move' plot where they move to Claire's old house and her mother moves to the apartment because she doesn't want such a huge space more-or-less to herself anymore.

That seems extremely unlikely.  Far more unlikely than my parents' move from one half of a semi-detached pair to the other (by way of owning both for a while).

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #170 on: 21 Apr 2017, 00:12 »

You do not live in a new place until certain minor lapses in judgement from the past have moved wardrobe as well (I am looking at you, purple hat in my wardrobe).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #171 on: 21 Apr 2017, 00:14 »

My wife determined the crucial change in our relationship as being when she let me leave my toothbrush in her bathroom.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #172 on: 21 Apr 2017, 01:03 »

Hmmm....a budding Claire/Bubbles friendship.  When Claire tells her that she's transitioned genders, will that make Bubbles realize, "I don't HAVE to occupy this combat 'droid chassis."?

btw: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3337
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #173 on: 21 Apr 2017, 02:34 »

Yeah but Bubbles memories literally ARE files, as mentioned above, and shown in the strip, cos Bubbles is a computer, not a person.

OK, this is nitpicky, I admit, but Bubbles is a computer, not a *human*. It's established very well in QCverse that AI are actually conscious, intelligent and have individuality. They also have rights as citizens.

So Bubbles is very much a person, unambiguously so (in the legal, moral, and mental sense). A non-human person, but still.

Oh I don't disagree with a single word of that!

Luckily it doesn't impinge on my argument! :)
"Person" or not, their memories are handled as a machine's.

Uhmmmh - I don't recall evidence for that. In fact, Bubbles explanation of the functioning of QC-verses AI's suggests that AI memory recording and storage is significantly more complex. Furthermore, I recall a discussion from Jaron Lanier's "You are not a Gadget" where he explains that the entire paradigm of files (and nested folders) that contemporary operating systems utilize was a design-choice that first became popular, and later became 'locked in', as he calls it - but it's in no way necessary to organize even our conventional Turing machine's OS' in that way - so why should it be necessary for something that is on an entirely different level of complexity & capabilities? (*)

For example: Recall those stories about a Savant who is taken on a helicopter trip over the roofs of Paris, and who later on paints stunningly detailed pictures of precisely that aerial view of Paris? No 'normal' human being can do that - not because our brains and senses cannot (they can), but because our memory recording filters for important information (But 'important' is a choice - a choice that can become ... a narrative)
We recall: "Paris from above", "Roofs", "Shingles", "Up in the air", "Loud" (Choppers are loud!), "Anxious" (Fear of falling) -> The things that our brain deemed important (also important for our survival) at the time.

He recalls the position of every fucking window he's seen (no kidding, they actually compared the drawings to photograpy taken during the trip) ... But this guy, for all his amazing abilities, can't tie his own shoelaces (like literally, not metaphorically) - It's no question which mode of memory encoding grants an evolutionary advantage.



(*) With 'lock in' Lanier means design choices that become central to the entire functioning of parts of human activity's infrastructure not necessarily because they are good choices, but because so many subsequent applications crucially rely on them for their operation. Examples include the diameter of tubes in London's Underground that allow only a certain class of tracks, or Dolby's MIDI-protocol - oftentimes, those choices were 'proof of concept'-designs that impose significant limitations later on. Lanier theorizes that this is compounded in computer science because of conventional program's 'brittleness' - a single misplaced digit, or character can make the entire operation impossible, or - if the coder has not implemented good error-handling - even shut down the entire system, including other user's access to services.


Why does 'Complexity' alter the fact that AI's are still machines?
And that machines (as we know them, as we have no evidence to the contrary) do not 'forget' data unless programmed (or made) to do so.

I completely understand and agree with arguing for the *personhood* of the AIs in this universe.

But that does not alter the fact that they are not biological entities, and as such cannot have the same arguments put forward to compare them against the way we 'keen, neat humans' work.

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence... That, of course, is leaving aside degradation of storage systems etc... "The centre cannot hold..." and all that. 
But unless Bubbles is VERY old, surely the AI version of dementia hasn't kicked in?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #174 on: 21 Apr 2017, 02:49 »

Why does 'Complexity' alter the fact that AI's are still machines?
And that machines (as we know them, as we have no evidence to the contrary) do not 'forget' data unless programmed (or made) to do so.

I completely understand and agree with arguing for the *personhood* of the AIs in this universe.

But that does not alter the fact that they are not biological entities, and as such cannot have the same arguments put forward to compare them against the way we 'keen, neat humans' work.

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence... That, of course, is leaving aside degradation of storage systems etc... "The centre cannot hold..." and all that. 
But unless Bubbles is VERY old, surely the AI version of dementia hasn't kicked in?

I think that the key phrase in your post is "(machines) as we know them."

AIs in QC are not machines as we know them. What's more, they are an emergent species, and thus may well share some characteristics with biological species. But as we have no real evidence, as you say. We are left to speculate.

I am not here to categorically state that you are wrong. Merely to ask why you seem so confident in your opinion that AIs have perfect recall.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #175 on: 21 Apr 2017, 04:03 »

Pair of couples sharing a 2-bedroom apartment: hardly unusual for 20-somethings. The fact that Bubbles won't (for the most part) need the bathroom helps things a bit, and assuming the electricity account is in the name of the tenants, then mole-people landlord shouldn't care that much.

Eventually the logic of the situation will force some adjustments. Either Marten/Claire eventually vacate to their own place, or Faye/Bubbles does. Or all could move to a bigger place once they get tired of the cramped quarters. For the sake of the comic, the vacating couple could end up going to another apartment in the same building if it opens up (maybe Juicy will get a job in another state).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #176 on: 21 Apr 2017, 04:14 »

I think that Pintsize is the problem; he's people too, after all. Five people in a 2-bedroom apartment might violate minimum living space ordinances even though AIs don't really need all that much 'living space'.

Then again, it isn't impossible that Pintsize may point to Marten and Claire and then to Faye and Bubbles and say: "Mission accomplished; my work here is done!" Then he'll move into the Skate Park to act as Jeremy and Punchbot's publicist.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #177 on: 21 Apr 2017, 05:20 »

Hmmm....a budding Claire/Bubbles friendship.  When Claire tells her that she's transitioned genders, will that make Bubbles realize, "I don't HAVE to occupy this combat 'droid chassis."?

btw: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3337

ZOMG, Claireface in the fourth panel of that strip!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #178 on: 21 Apr 2017, 05:39 »

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence...

No, what we have is evidence that their memory can be erased by outside influence, not that that's the only way data might vanish from their memory. "Absence of evidence != evidence of absence"

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« Last Edit: 21 Apr 2017, 13:54 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #179 on: 21 Apr 2017, 06:36 »

I believe my moving in with the girl who would become my wife three years later commenced with me loaning her my TV, and ended when my motorcycle and VW bus both arrived in her parking area.  Until then it had been one or the other, not both.  Somewhere in between my laundry had shown up, but her place was less than a block from a laundromat, so that was a more reasonable thing. 

Sometime between the laundry and the motorcycle was the beer in her fridge, too.  All signposts along the way...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #180 on: 21 Apr 2017, 08:19 »

 :-D That was cute.

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #181 on: 21 Apr 2017, 13:38 »

Pair of couples sharing a 2-bedroom apartment: hardly unusual for 20-somethings. The fact that Bubbles won't (for the most part) need the bathroom helps things a bit, and assuming the electricity account is in the name of the tenants, then mole-people landlord shouldn't care that much.

I just want to say, again, how much I love Claire in the first panel of that linked comic.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #182 on: 21 Apr 2017, 17:01 »

An epiphany moment for Claire

It shall be interesting to see where it goes from here.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #183 on: 22 Apr 2017, 01:19 »

So I know my limits enough to know better than to get too deeply between Case and Joe et al on that discussion, but I did want to point out that there's all sorts of random/semi-random errors that corrupt data a lot faster than just digital memory drift.

I mean if my poor computers are any indication, that is... ;)

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #184 on: 22 Apr 2017, 01:58 »

I'd probably be enquiring more about the weight limit - I can't remember if AIs generally use the same style of dwellings as people, beyond anthroPCs; much less combat droids. Is the flat new enough to be constructed to meet this kind of thing?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #185 on: 22 Apr 2017, 02:40 »

Yes, even if the individual can regenerate neurons. Deadpool should have worse amnesia than Logan.

He did, for the longest time. Granted, that was actually because he was being given a ton of amnesia drugs, going by a semi-recent retcon, but it's been a recurring plot point in the comics that he can't remember most of his past.

Not at all related to the comic but goddamnit my nerdery will not go unheard.
Ah, wasn't aware. Thank you for the correction.

I mostly stick to webcomics, thus my ignorance on the matter.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #186 on: 23 Apr 2017, 11:58 »

My wife determined the crucial change in our relationship as being when she let me leave my toothbrush in her bathroom.

Toothbrushes at both apts, or just one toothbrush at hers? Because the latter is REAL commitment.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #187 on: 23 Apr 2017, 12:36 »

It had to be two, as at the time I was working in a city 100 miles away and doing a weekly return journey.  The toothbrush marked the change from a weekly visit to her place to a weekly commute from her place.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #188 on: 23 Apr 2017, 18:58 »

So, the average American refrigerator is 67 to 70 inches (~170 to ~177cm) tall.

Looks like we can ball park Bubble's height around 6'3" to 6'7" (190 to 200cm).
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JoeCovenant

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #189 on: 24 Apr 2017, 02:34 »

Why does 'Complexity' alter the fact that AI's are still machines?
And that machines (as we know them, as we have no evidence to the contrary) do not 'forget' data unless programmed (or made) to do so.

I completely understand and agree with arguing for the *personhood* of the AIs in this universe.

But that does not alter the fact that they are not biological entities, and as such cannot have the same arguments put forward to compare them against the way we 'keen, neat humans' work.

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence... That, of course, is leaving aside degradation of storage systems etc... "The centre cannot hold..." and all that. 
But unless Bubbles is VERY old, surely the AI version of dementia hasn't kicked in?

I think that the key phrase in your post is "(machines) as we know them."

AIs in QC are not machines as we know them. What's more, they are an emergent species, and thus may well share some characteristics with biological species. But as we have no real evidence, as you say. We are left to speculate.

I am not here to categorically state that you are wrong. Merely to ask why you seem so confident in your opinion that AIs have perfect recall.

Ohhhh I am NOT confident in it. (Although, with nothing to say otherwise... No-one could be right or wrong I n this one, I think?)

I am merely puzzled by what seems to ME to be clashing facts. That Bubbles recalls the details of the attack, but not the faces of those engaged in it. At all. For all the time they were together.

As I said in another post, it seems a bit of a 'lazy' way to get some added pathos into Bubbles story, which is bugging me because (to me) Bubbles  has been one of the best written characters  in this entire strip.

However, answering logically... I guess the simplest answer is, "because we have no evidence of anything else."

Emily was shown a *depiction* of Bubbles 'memories. And if such a construct could be rendered to make sense to a human, then it also means those same memories can be understood in a "thoughts in a box" way. And if that is the case (which it clearly is), then those same memories must be able to be retrieved in the same manner... surely? Because if they could not... how could Emily see if they were there or not?

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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #190 on: 24 Apr 2017, 02:38 »

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence...

No, what we have is evidence that their memory can be erased by outside influence, not that that's the only way data might vanish from their memory. "Absence of evidence != evidence of absence"

Um.. That's what I said in the first line above...
"The only evidence we have to date."

And that's all we can state for certain... everything else is hypothetical.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #191 on: 24 Apr 2017, 02:41 »

So I know my limits enough to know better than to get too deeply between Case and Joe et al on that discussion, but I did want to point out that there's all sorts of random/semi-random errors that corrupt data a lot faster than just digital memory drift.

I mean if my poor computers are any indication, that is... ;)

:) Which was actually a thought I had early on... but dismissed it as having to be a fairly hellish semi-random error to wipe out only Bubbles company's faces! :)

(Oh.. and the way this debate seems to be headed.. I think your line above could be altered slightly to "get between Joe and Case et al!)  :)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #192 on: 24 Apr 2017, 04:42 »

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence...

No, what we have is evidence that their memory can be erased by outside influence, not that that's the only way data might vanish from their memory. "Absence of evidence != evidence of absence"

Um.. That's what I said in the first line above...
"The only evidence we have to date."

And that's all we can state for certain... everything else is hypothetical.

I think you misunderstood Case's post, read it again.

To put what he said in a different way, there is no evidence that they have "total recall."
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #193 on: 24 Apr 2017, 09:36 »

To use your example above, the only evidence we have to date (Emily in Bubbles mind) is that AI's are like those savants you discuss above. They have total recall, unless acted upon by an outside influence...

No, what we have is evidence that their memory can be erased by outside influence, not that that's the only way data might vanish from their memory. "Absence of evidence != evidence of absence"

Um.. That's what I said in the first line above...
"The only evidence we have to date."

And that's all we can state for certain... everything else is hypothetical.

I think you misunderstood Case's post, read it again.

To put what he said in a different way, there is no evidence that they have "total recall."

No, I didn't misunderstand it at all.

Computer based Machines have Total Recall of anything they have been asked, forced, chosen to remember...
Those memories (data) will remain unless acted upon by an outside influence (or, as has been mentioned previously, a slight chance of data degradation.) (or lack of storage space and if that happened then I would imagine AIs would have a chance to back up their memories or select what to forget.
(Who needs memories of walking to work for 5 years?)

Bubbles memories were expected by everyone, including the Omni-scient/present/potent Creepybot... (but not CW, for obvious reasons) ...to still be there, intact.
Which might not have been the case if machines did NOT have Total Recall... as there then would have been a chance she had simply *forgotten* them.
At no point in the story, up until Faye and Bubbles heart to heart, was anything even suggested that machines can simply forget memories through nothing else but the passage of time.

Nothing points to a *fact* that these machines do not have total recall.
Any evidence we *do* have, no matter how slim, points to the contrary.

Which (and this is the entire crux of my ire) is why I'm aggrieved at the, 'for pathos purposes', that Bubbles has handily 'forgotten' the faces of her team... who are apparently so important to her, that they were the focus of the entire arc we saw played out.
All it would have taken would have been for the dialogue to omit the detail of the attack. And this particular conversation would never have had to take place.
Or even that the details of the attack were in the deleted memories... *that* would have given a similar (if not deeper) pathos, as it would have fully explained Bubbles' loss.

Unfortunately, all we now have is, that she just *forgot* what her beloved colleagues looked like...?
As I said above, that just rubs me up the wrong way.
In the same way as Faye saying she can't remember the voice of her father.
(But, I admit, I don't know myself what the story behind that is, re: her age when it happened, and how long ago it was.)

If it's been mentioned in the strip.. I've forgotten it...

...'cos I'm not a machine...  :wink:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #194 on: 24 Apr 2017, 11:56 »

Very interesting series of points made in this discussion but one phrase made the hairs on my neck stand on end and a chill run down my spine.
I was getting flashbacks from philosophy 101 / Modern Inductive Logic 310. Two courses where the professors would have annihilated each other if they ever met, sort of like a loopy electron and a no-nonsense positron.
Nothing points to a *fact* that these machines do not have total recall.

The absence of evidence that something does not exist is not evidence that it exists.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #195 on: 24 Apr 2017, 12:38 »

Anyway, what Bubbles said sounds like an after-action report or a deployment debriefing.  It would for damn sure be a matter of record before she left the military forces, assuming she remembered it at the time.  The AARs are always, always, always a high priority after any contact with the enemy. 

Anyway, it sounds to me like somebody read back to her her own testimony from the standard debriefing.  Even if she doesn't actually remember the events themselves, she'd know what happened.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #196 on: 24 Apr 2017, 13:15 »

Computer based Machines have Total Recall of anything they have been asked, forced, chosen to remember...
Those memories (data) will remain unless acted upon by an outside influence

This assumes that QC's AIs use our current technology.  But we know that our present AIs cannot approach the capabilities of QC's AIs - so I assume they use some different technology, as our own brains do.  Whether it's like Asimov's positronic brains, or some form of quantum computing, or something completely else, I cannot say; but that it's different we probably can.  And given the possibility of "brains" or "cpus" that maybe use some statistical methods in their operation - who knows? - it is far from the bounds of possibility that their memories might also not be 100% accurate under some circumstances.

Another possibility is that they hold too much information to be searched efficiently, and so failure to find memories is another option, even if they are present.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #197 on: 24 Apr 2017, 15:40 »

If it's been mentioned in the strip.. I've forgotten it...

...'cos I'm not a machine...  :wink:

Interesting thing is, although you've forgotten it, it's almost certainly still there in your mind. Someone gives your memory a little prod, posts a link, and you'll say, "Oh yes, now I remember!"

When we forget stuff, it doesn't, generally speaking, disappear from our minds, our internal library of experiences. We just lose the index card.

Seeing as AIs are very like we humans in so many respects, it is highly likely that they are like us in this respect also. Bubbles' encrypted memories - had they truly been encrypted, though it turned out they weren't - but had they been, they would have been a very good analogy for repressed trauma, which I'm sure was Jeph's goal. I also see it as very likely that AIs "forgetting" an experience would be very like us - it's still there in their AI mind, but they can't "recall" it (i.e. bring it back into their conscious mind). As pwhodges suggested, they experience "failure to find memories."

I honestly cannot comprehend how certain you are in your belief based on a slim bit of evidence that AI memory must resemble that of a computer (which I doubt) - but then, when presented with much stronger evidence (Bubbles has forgotten the faces of her teammates), you would rather act aggrieved and assume Jeph got it wrong than review your belief. How extraordinary.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #198 on: 25 Apr 2017, 02:32 »

Very interesting series of points made in this discussion but one phrase made the hairs on my neck stand on end and a chill run down my spine.
I was getting flashbacks from philosophy 101 / Modern Inductive Logic 310. Two courses where the professors would have annihilated each other if they ever met, sort of like a loopy electron and a no-nonsense positron.
Nothing points to a *fact* that these machines do not have total recall.

The absence of evidence that something does not exist is not evidence that it exists.

You're absolutely right.
But this is a made-up universe, upon which we can only transfer our 'own world' realities, until we are presented with something that actively stands contrary to what we know.

What we know is, computers store data which they are fed, and unless pre-programmed to do so, will not lose that data...
And logically, what sense does it make to program a Combat AI to have the capacity to *forget* what it's squad mates look like?

(Mind you, that might deny the old oxymoron... "Military Intelligence" :)  )

There is no evidence that memory loss *does* happen, so that's all we can go with.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3461-3465 (17-21 April 2017)
« Reply #199 on: 25 Apr 2017, 02:36 »

Anyway, what Bubbles said sounds like an after-action report or a deployment debriefing.  It would for damn sure be a matter of record before she left the military forces, assuming she remembered it at the time.  The AARs are always, always, always a high priority after any contact with the enemy. 

Anyway, it sounds to me like somebody read back to her her own testimony from the standard debriefing.  Even if she doesn't actually remember the events themselves, she'd know what happened.

I think I may have made similar comments above.
And as I have now said too many times it's what bothers me about the way this has been written.




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