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The Praeses have finally shown their hand

11 (23.9%)

Sedna has 'Powered Up'

2 (4.3%)

Super Gavia has come!!!

12 (26.1%)

Pate has decided to keep Alice alive

5 (10.9%)

Angry Ardent - not to be trifled with

2 (4.3%)

Parentl Intervention

4 (8.7%)

APlot Twist commences

4 (8.7%)

Spathe Ham with Spathe Pizza, Waffles and Spathe Coffee

2 (4.3%)

Purple Monkey Space Mechanic

2 (4.3%)

Spacebutts!!!!

2 (4.3%)

Total Members Voted: 26

[Kugai]

Hoo boy

[Case]

What's a 'Valkyrie' in this context? Is it what Alice & Sedna were called before the blink?

Regarding Gavia's powers vs. Church's (or Alice's) - I figure that Gavia's nanotech is a more recent development than whatever empowers Alice, Sedna and Church? Quite possible that she could best Church in a fight, but chose to threaten Pate instead because it is the faster way to get him to let up on Alice.

In panel 2 on p.7, Church is blocking 'shots' (or whatever) - I'd figure that either Gavia or Sedna where doing the shooting (and Sedna doesn't appear to have shooty things on her atm.). If it was Gavia doing the shooting, then she might have originally planned to attack Church outright, and only switched tactics because Church was on the verge of killing (or irrevocably hurting) Alice?

[jwhouk]

The Valkyrie is the vehicle they took to get into space - what they found in the cavern.

[jheartney]

I don't see why Alice would have lost control; she's badly injured, and in pain, but despite that she's taking the opportunity to laugh in Church's face.

The thing is, look at how Alice is laughing, how Jeph has portrayed it. The jagged look of it, the halted nature of it. That's not a "Har har, you're Pate's bitch" kind of a laugh. That's a straight up evil laugh or even sanity slippage.

Alice has lost it, precisely because she's been badly injured. She's a weapon and she's been broken and that's manifesting in that scary looking laughter.

Or she's been badly messed up by Church's attack, and given her half-destroyed face/mouth, this is what her laugh sounds like.

[TheEvilDog]

I don't see why Alice would have lost control; she's badly injured, and in pain, but despite that she's taking the opportunity to laugh in Church's face.

The thing is, look at how Alice is laughing, how Jeph has portrayed it. The jagged look of it, the halted nature of it. That's not a "Har har, you're Pate's bitch" kind of a laugh. That's a straight up evil laugh or even sanity slippage.

Alice has lost it, precisely because she's been badly injured. She's a weapon and she's been broken and that's manifesting in that scary looking laughter.

Or she's been badly messed up by Church's attack, and given her half-destroyed face/mouth, this is what her laugh sounds like.

There'd be a lot more burbling or trying to take in air. No, I'd be willing to bet that's the laughter of someone who has snapped and is going to get vicious.

[Is it cold in here?]

It is the author's sovereign choice how to balance exposition and enigma.

That said, I am surfeited with enigma.

[Tova]

My vote is for the insanity interpretation, for whatever that's worth.

Also, with regards to "controlling two immortals." Would I be right in suggesting that one far from a given, and the other is temporary unless she can maintain the blade while asleep.

[brasca]

It's definitely dependent on Gavia holding Pate hostage, but the reason why Church answers to Pate is still a mystery.  If Pate dug him out of the ground then he seems honor bound to obey him since there doesn't appear to be any other way for him to keep him in line.  As such it's theoretical, but if saving the life of an immortal gives that person control over them Alice may still hate the situation no matter who it is.  While I doubt Gavia holds a grudge and probably feels indebted for her saving her from the Nightwalker Alice was once a weapon controlled by others and for the last 5000 years shes been free so even if she's oblligated to follow a good person  she still hates the loss of independence. 

[retrosteve]

if saving the life of an immortal gives that person control over them Alice may still hate the situation no matter who it is.  While I doubt Gavia holds a grudge and probably feels indebted for her saving her from the Nightwalker...

I really can't see stories of any kind built on artificial rules controlling sentient beings. Church shows sadism, anger, lust for revenge. He's sentient, not some sort of rule-based AI. He may or may not have a sense of honour. He doesn't have a robotic "I am controlled by whoever last saved my life" switch, any more than you do.

If I'm wrong, I'll be seriously disappointed in the story, for turning sentient creatures into automata, which would be awfully useful at times, but doesn't happen.

[brasca]

Then how would you explain Pate's control over Church?  If Church was just following him until he could satisfy his revenge then he wouldn't back down once he got it. 

[sitnspin]

Honor? Gratitude? There are countless reasons why Church might follow and protect Pate. His desire for revenge doesn't have to have anything to do with it.

[Method of Madness]

Also, I don't think Pate saved Church, it sounded like he dug himself out.

[TheEvilDog]

We don't know that much about Alice, Sedna and Church other than the fact that they are remnant weapons of before the Blink.
We don't know why Church and Alice had a battle 5000 years ago or why she was forced to imprison him under molten rock.
We don't know the circumstances of Church's release or the cause of his attachment to Pate.

There's a lot we don't know and thus every theory about their origin is left open until outright proven wrong.
It might not be a case of Church being indebted to Pate, but rather Church being a defective soldier who sees in Pate, a person in authority as a commanding figure, a replacement general. It could be that while he was imprisoned, Church seethed while Sedna and Alice were able to develop in their own ways. It could also be a case of Church being the murderously psychotic Lennie Small to Pate's slightly in over his head George Milton.

Who knows? Not us, yet, anyway.

[retrosteve]

Then how would you explain Pate's control over Church?  If Church was just following him until he could satisfy his revenge then he wouldn't back down once he got it.

Every movie or book plot ever has someone refraining from doing something they want to do, because someone else tells them not to. Common reasons include
* Love
* Blackmail
* Curiosity
* Fear
* Loyalty
* Allegiance / Fealty
* Belief in authority
* Sense of duty

All of these are way more interesting than programming.

[brasca]

Honor? Gratitude? There are countless reasons why Church might follow and protect Pate. His desire for revenge doesn't have to have anything to do with it.

Could be and if so then he has a stronger code than most.  He could've abandoned Pate, killed Alice, then Gavia, Sedna, and Ardent leaving no witnesses to say otherwise except himself.  Perhaps he's not completely devoid of any honor or integrity.  In fact his tenacious adherence to a leader no matter how terrible is why he was sealed up.  Maybe all he believes in is his code of honor.

[Method of Madness]

He could've abandoned Pate, killed Alice, then Gavia, Sedna, and Ardent leaving no witnesses to say otherwise except himself.

Maybe. But then what? Maybe Pate doesn't control him, but he has some sense of purpose while Pate's alive, and that might be more than he's had in thousands of years, and more than he sees having post-Pate.

[jheartney]

I know it's a convention of most sci-fi that everywhere has 1g gravity and a breathable atmosphere, but in point of fact all our heroes and villains are in orbit well above the Earth. So apparently the inside of wherever they are has gravity and life support (this despite the rather large hole Church made in it), or else Gavia has extended her bubble around all the proceedings, and her bubble has artificial gravity along with instantly generated atmosphere.

So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth. I hope they (the praeses) get off their wooden butts and do something soon, as the main characters seem to have arrived at an impasse. (Given Church's apparent lack of need for sleep, I bet on him winning any temporary standoff.)

[BenRG]

What's Church's game? He's seen lots of little guys who dream of being something big. He figures that hanging around Pate and his ambitions will give him plenty of excuses to murder people. He sort of needs excuses; it's part of his genetic programming to only use lethal force in something approaching self defence or 'for the cause'.

[jwhouk]

It may be that the supersoldiers were the reason for The Blink, because when one became damaged, they went out of control. So the Powers That Be shut everything down.

A lot of backstory that could be told by Jeph here - and if memory serves, Jeph's only scratched the surface of this story...

[TheEvilDog]

It may be that the supersoldiers were the reason for The Blink, because when one became damaged, they went out of control. So the Powers That Be shut everything down.

A lot of backstory that could be told by Jeph here - and if memory serves, Jeph's only scratched the surface of this story...

Exactly.

For all we know, Church could have developed the equivalent of brain damage and could have latched onto Pate as a commanding figure.

[brasca]

I know it's a convention of most sci-fi that everywhere has 1g gravity and a breathable atmosphere, but in point of fact all our heroes and villains are in orbit well above the Earth. So apparently the inside of wherever they are has gravity and life support (this despite the rather large hole Church made in it), or else Gavia has extended her bubble around all the proceedings, and her bubble has artificial gravity along with instantly generated atmosphere.

So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth. I hope they (the praeses) get off their wooden butts and do something soon, as the main characters seem to have arrived at an impasse. (Given Church's apparent lack of need for sleep, I bet on him winning any temporary standoff.)

Since they're inside the habitat I imagine some automated system has already sealed the hole and artificial gravity and life support have taken over so Gavia isn't responsible for keeping them alive beyond taking Pate hostage.  Perhaps the Praeses will finally show themselves or maybe we'll get some long awaited exposition.  Either from a cracked Alice or if Gavia orders Pate to order Church to talk.

[Morituri]

As I read it:  (Conjecture, really)...

We've already seen that Alice and Sedna have a thing going where Sedna's abilities aren't as great as Alice's, nor does she feel a personal duty to a community and human welfare in the same way that Alice does.  We've already conjectured that Alice is a "more advanced" or later version of whatever advanced weapons program produced them both.  Church is a "More advanced" model than Alice and Sedna.  He was developed later, when both the knowledge about how to make somebody that strong and about how to keep somebody that strong under their control was more advanced than it was when Alice and Sedna were produced. 

So when it was over - when the old world had gone to shit and there was really and truly no more point in fighting - Church was the one who couldn't stand down.  He had orders from some recognized authority and could not overcome his compulsion to obey them.   He was stronger, faster, more durable, and as ruthless or more ruthless than anyone else standing, and could not stop fighting.  Alice felt duty to human welfare and so on, but she was free to reinterpret her duty and make choices about how to carry it out, and because Church didn't have that freedom, he had to be taken down. And taken down he was, with Alice to wield a hammer and an orbital laser strike to make a handy pool of lava.

Now that Church is above ground again, we see him under the exact same compulsion he could never overcome, to obey orders from some recognized authority.  I don't think loyalty or gratitude or valuing that entity as a person or anything like that comes into play here.  Church is literally stuck on a compulsion, as in an obsessive-compulsive disorder, that he can't overcome.  Pate is some kind of recognized authority figure, whether he sees Pate as a worthless worm of a man or not, whether Pate ever did anything for him or not, and when a recognized authority figure gives an order, Church obeys it.

And now Alice is laughing at his predicament.  His is greater strength than hers, greater speed, greater endurance and durability, but this one crucial weakness - the very same weakness that forced her to put him down fifty centuries ago (possibly even the same type of threat that forced him to stand still for it) - prevents him from taking his revenge on her.  That's some high-grade irony there.  Her sanity hasn't broken; there's an element of nervous laughter there as she experiences relief instead of death, of course, but this is to me clearly a laugh at a situation which is funny as hell if you have a very very dark sense of humor.

[KevxD]

Church looks like a teenage girl about to throw a temper tantrum...

[hitmiccs]

Alice might be laughing about the fact, that Gavia made herself Church's enemy no.1 by threatening Pates life directly. Gavia might now be an even greater priority than Alice for Church - she will not have a single moment of peace from now on and has to be aware of Church at any time. The moment Gavia removes the life-threatening blade, Church will attack, if he sees a chance.

[OldGoat]

So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth.

Twins?  I was under the impression that Gavia is the elder by a few years (or cycles, or whatever Orbitals use to mark time).

Church's expression when Ellie tried to cold-cock him was the first time we'd seen him drop his flat affect, like he was thinking, "You've crossed the line - now I can act."  The appearance of his eyes seems to signal which mode he's in.  Even a threat to Pate doesn't appear to release the control, whatever it is, but a threat to his own person does.

If he's programmed, Alice may be chuckling because she knows that Church's perception of the threat to himself will diminish, he'll drop back to 'droid mode, and the knife in Pate will attenuate into part of the background.  At that point all Gavia has to do is prevent Pate from issuing instructions to Church and she can snooze (if she even needs to now - we don't know what effect the nanobots have on that part of her physiology). 

We also know from early in the story that Ardent elected to not use nanotech.  He may still be able to adopt it, especially if they can retrieve another nanopod from the wreckage of the Valkyrie.

[Method of Madness]

Was that supposed to be the same link thrice?

[OldGoat]

Was that supposed to be the same link thrice?

No, it wasn't.  Damn.

I'm too sleepy to mess with it right now, though.

Edit - 06:00 PDT Fixed 'em.  Thanks for the proof-read.

Something occurs to me.  Alice is known to her village and identifies herself as a witch.  It's not uncommon for Wiccan groups to hold outdoor gatherings in a designated grove.  Alice's nemesis is Church.  Hmmmm....was the pre-Blink conflict a religious war?

[sitnspin]

I think it's more that humans tend to refer to any woman with abilities they don't understand as a witch. She never called herself a witch, she just accepts that that's what the villagers call her.

[OldGoat]

She never called herself a witch . . ..

Really?
"You have meddled in the affairs of a witch..."

[Stoutfellow]

True, but she also called Gavia a demon in the same speech, which was addressed to children. I think we can take both statements with a large dollop of salt.

[sitnspin]

There's this verbal trick people sometimes use called "irony".

[brasca]

So far these vaunted praeses have yet to actually do anything in the story other than allowing the twins to make a trip to Earth.

Twins?  I was under the impression that Gavia is the elder by a few years (or cycles, or whatever Orbitals use to mark time).

Church's expression when Ellie tried to cold-cock him was the first time we'd seen him drop his flat affect, like he was thinking, "You've crossed the line - now I can act."  The appearance of his eyes seems to signal which mode he's in.  Even a threat to Pate doesn't appear to release the control, whatever it is, but a threat to his own person does.

If he's programmed, Alice may be chuckling because she knows that Church's perception of the threat to himself will diminish, he'll drop back to 'droid mode, and the knife in Pate will attenuate into part of the background.  At that point all Gavia has to do is prevent Pate from issuing instructions to Church and she can snooze (if she even needs to now - we don't know what effect the nanobots have on that part of her physiology). 

We also know from early in the story that Ardent elected to not use nanotech.  He may still be able to adopt it, especially if they can retrieve another nanopod from the wreckage of the Valkyrie.

We don't really know much about Ardent and Gavia's ages.  Being genetically augmented they could be older than Pate, but age very slowly.  Gavia's upgraded nanotechnology may allow her to stay awake longer than she previously could or possibly indefinitely, but none of that may be necessary if they take Pate somewhere he can't communicate with Church.  Gavia could temporarily remove the knife to sleep and Church would never know.  However, that's not possible at this time since they are currently within the outer surface of the habitat.  Unless there's a door they'll have to leave out the hole and try to find a docking entrance.  As for Ardent I know he doesn't believe in using nanotechnology, but he might not be capable since he's not acusstomed.

[Thrudd]

Just chiming in one the source of control thread;

So far everyone has put forth something psychological as a control.
Why not something a bit more material?
Like the dragons hearts used on Escaflowne or the life links used in so many anime scifi/fantasy mecha series.
Or maybe there are bits of Pate that were used to reboot our psycho-killer and the loss of Pate would mean total shutdown?

[brasca]

It's a possibility, but it seems unlikely that Pate could figure out how to control an immortal super soldier since I doubt an instruction manual survived the ages and even if it did you'd need someone who could translate a 5000 year old language. 

[Tova]

Well, if anyone could...

Old broken machines in the ground, strange lights in the sky, the bones of ancient mega-structures across the land. What knowledge might be gained, what mysteries solved, what power attained?

Indeed. The inclusion of Mr Church in that frame is kinda interesting.

[brasca]

When Pate was first introduced he reminded me of Big O's Alex Rosewater.  Both are men of power seeking to unlock past secrets.  I'm still not sure how Pate could control someone like Church with so little information, but if he stumbled into it then I doubt he would look such a gift horse in the mouth. 

[Tova]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

[Method of Madness]

Btw, are we still on chapter six?

[brasca]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.

[Tova]

Not ruling it out either. Just not buying it yet.

[jwhouk]

Btw, are we still on chapter six?

Yes. We haven't gotten any indication of a chapter break yet.

Sent from my NXA8QC116 using Tapatalk

[retrosteve]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.

I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.

[Storel]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.

I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.

One of my favorite books is Sylvia Engdahl's Enchantress from the Stars, which starts off sounding like a fairy tale and turns out to be a science fiction story. Turnarounds can be awesome if done well.

[retrosteve]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.

I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.

One of my favorite books is Sylvia Engdahl's Enchantress from the Stars, which starts off sounding like a fairy tale and turns out to be a science fiction story. Turnarounds can be awesome if done well.

Yes ... and no.  Charles Stross's The Merchant Princes series starts out looking like a fantasy and turns SF over the first couple of books. That's taking what looks like magic and carefully defining its parameters until you realize it's science. That's actually pretty cool.

Going the other way, where you assume the universe has science rules, and then open it up to arbitrary magic, is... not so cool. It says the writer didn't really make up the rules in advance, he just threw a bunch in later. It's magic ex machina. And I won't have it.

[brasca]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.

I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.

One of my favorite books is Sylvia Engdahl's Enchantress from the Stars, which starts off sounding like a fairy tale and turns out to be a science fiction story. Turnarounds can be awesome if done well.

I would also include Babylon 5's technomages.  They have extremely advanced technology that gives them abilities that seem magical, but I think Elric is more eloquent in his explanation: 

 

Gavia would be right at home with them. 

[A small perverse otter]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

I agree, that seems a stretch to me, too.

I wonder if the original creators of the super-soldiers had some kind of explicit control over them? If I'd built Church, I'd have made damned sure I could make him do what I wanted, and, more importantly, make him unable to turn on me. If Pate got ahold of that mechanism before he unearthed Church, then Church would be completely under his control, like it or not.

[BenRG]

There is some difficulty that comes from understanding why Church and Alice's armour seems to be of the same design. I suspect that they originated from the same faction. So, why were they fighting? I suspect that Church was designed too well - Nearly-indestructible, self-repairing, self-powering and (most fatally) with no control backdoors. Simply put, there was no way to override him once active. His creators were, of course, 100% sure that their control over him was failsafe. They were wrong and Alice was possibly the last of hundreds of super soldiers that were needed to stop him. All the others fell so that she would have the chance to deliver that last hammer-blow.

I suspect that Church was genetically programmed to seek out and destroy all perceptible enemies but had a dangerously imprecise IFF coding. This meant that he ended up slaughtering whole populations because they were insufficiently zealous and fanatical for the cause.

[OldGoat]

I wonder if the original creators of the super-soldiers had some kind of explicit control over them? If I'd built Church, I'd have made damned sure I could make him do what I wanted, and, more importantly, make him unable to turn on me. If Pate got ahold of that mechanism before he unearthed Church, then Church would be completely under his control, like it or not.

Perhaps the Warhammer is that mechanism.

[Method of Madness]

I'm keeping my mind open, but to be honest, the 'rescuing a being enslaves them to you' theory doesn't ring true to me.

It's how genies and some other mythical figures work and seeing as how Church is old and powerful enough to be one I wouldn't rule it out.

I'd be pretty disappointed if I was reading a science-fiction story and in the last chapter it turned out to be a fantasy.

A. Last chapter? What? Why?
B. I'm pretty sure this has always had elements of both sci-fi and fantasy.

[blt]

True, but she also called Gavia a demon in the same speech, which was addressed to children. I think we can take both statements with a large dollop of salt.

http://www.alicegrove.com/post/115349455399/think-about-it

Alice also refers to herself as a witch here too, speaking to Gavia and not her townspeople.  I think she puts more stake in the "witch" thing than just irony.