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Poll

What will Ardent's answer reveal?

Exactly what he said, a friend hacked the transporter console and he woke up on Earth.
It was actually someone no one ever heard of that promised this and Alice was wrong about the Praeses.
The Praeses are playing dumb and Laridia is just there to convince them they had nothing to do with Ardent going to Earth.
There's actually a rogue element among the Praeses in cahoots with a mysterious 3rd party.
Nothing.  Spookybot will wake up suddenly and realize this was all just a nightmare.

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Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?  (Read 89304 times)

OldGoat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #150 on: 06 Jul 2017, 09:46 »

Remembering back to Alice and Sedna's fight Ardent remarked that she was fast, but Gavia countered that Alice was faster.  And seeing as how Church stopped her from ramming her hand through the back of Pate's head it would seem that he is as fast as he is strong. 

Notice Jeph's artwork in that scene.  It suggests something other than conventional movement, like teleportation or time-warp or whatever.  And, again, Church is in total dead-pan mode as opposed to the attacking shark when Sedna hit him. 

At any rate, "How could _____ have _____ when s/he's not as _____ as _____?" is irrelevant.  That's how Jeph  wrote and drew it so that's how it happened in Alice's grove.
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brasca

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #151 on: 06 Jul 2017, 10:35 »

Strip is up!   Alice seems more amused by the situation so maybe there's hope for Sedna.  Not much for Pate and I wonder who he's referring to. 
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #152 on: 06 Jul 2017, 10:36 »

Sedna was a handy and humerus option to do the cutting. 
Please tell me that was a brilliant pun on 'humorous".  Please tell me that...

I'm far too scapulas to come within a 10 foot radius of a pun that foul. 

Ulna.
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A Duck

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #153 on: 06 Jul 2017, 10:37 »

Comic!

I'm betting Alice's (and Sedna's and Church's) eyes are like Kurapika from HunterXHunter's eyes:

They're always red, but they have some sort of contact lenses hiding that. When enraged, said contacts "fail" in some capacity and the real color is visible.

Church probably destroyed some sort of contact lens and what we're seeing now is Alice's real eye.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #154 on: 06 Jul 2017, 10:39 »

Are all Earthlings that violent?

Well, considering we've had quite a lot of practice for many thousands of years and keep inventing news ways to enact that tendency...yes, yes we are.
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OldGoat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #155 on: 06 Jul 2017, 10:44 »

And Alice is referring to Church in the present tense.  Tell the coroner to disregard.

Edit - Whoa!  Dig the vertical pupil!  Lizard eyes and powers of regeneration - do the augmented humans have reptile DNA?
« Last Edit: 06 Jul 2017, 11:02 by OldGoat »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #156 on: 06 Jul 2017, 11:12 »

What are they, Pate? I suspect that Alice has revealed the secret of their powers: The ability to totally control their fundamental particles with conscious thought. Invulnerable, unstoppable and moving at near-infinite velocity? It's all about observing yourself to have a certain quantum value.

As for the eye? Maybe she's regenerating by way of fast evolution - From a collection of photosensitive cells to a human eye by way of all its precursors, including the reptilian eye.
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OldGoat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #157 on: 06 Jul 2017, 11:15 »

What are they, Pate? I suspect that Alice has revealed the secret of their powers: The ability to totally control their fundamental particles with conscious thought. Invulnerable, unstoppable and moving at near-infinite velocity? It's all about observing yourself to have a certain quantum value.
Given the beads of sweat on Jesper's face, he's thinking, "She's a lizard and I'm a BUG!!"
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derech

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #158 on: 06 Jul 2017, 11:35 »

Pate is looking up?   It would seem he'd already know about Church, and Alice and Senda, being like that, and violence and speed, given that he knows-knew Church outclassed them and things like doesn't-didn't sleep.   And really, all three were moving around in space with no air source or heat/cold protection.  He's not too surprised about Sedna and Church either.  So why be surprised about Alice?    But Laridia not being concerned is almost like how Pate isn't scared apparently, how neither is particularly upset about Church or Sedna.    Maybe it's Alice's reaction, or Laridia's, or something new has shown up.  It's rather perplexing all in all at this point who or why Pate is asking about what.      Alice not caring is not that much different than Church doing what he did-does.    OTOH maybe Pate is simply perplexed Alice doesn't appear  happy about Church or sad about Sedna or relieved about the situation or angry at Pate or surprised about Laridia.   Like she's given up, or never cared.

All three can move fast in some alternate reality sort of physics way, not that Alice has been all that clear, perhaps she lacks some of it.   Where Church simply outclasses the other two combined, usually, in speed (or an added ability to also kind of teleport like that no sleep thing) and in strength, when he's paying attention at least.   Still nothing says that Senda isn't faster, but doesn't have that teleport thing going on too.   Maybe too weak to be of much use normally, without both the element of surprise and a weapon to fight fire with fire.    Past if not present tense. 

As to our ancient human-likes.   They're not human with these changes and additions they have are they, almost a new life form based upon humans, but obviously not entirely natural or purely organic.  Not with these powers to do decidedly non-human things, like moving in warp or ripping off and tearing apart your own arm or not sleeping, whatever each has or is able to get.  Overall they are adjusted by DNA manipulation, breeding, cloning; genetic bespoking, whatever.  During each individual's "construction" also apparently cybernetic augmentation, nanobot cells, bionics.  Super-strong, nigh-invincible, extremely long-lived/effectively immortal, self-regenerating,  not requiring oxygen or suitable temperatures.   Something that lives 250,000 years (or what have you), is genetically tailor-made to destroy, self-repairing supersteelish instead of bones, and with artificial fiber muscles, can survive at least near-orbit space.....  Humaniform somethings.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #159 on: 06 Jul 2017, 11:52 »

Are all Earthlings that violent?

Well, considering we've had quite a lot of practice for many thousands of years and keep inventing news ways to enact that tendency...yes, yes we are.
It's probably why the aliens haven't invaded yet.  Even if they vastly out-tech us, they know that taking our planet is going to be a massive slog and resource drain.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #160 on: 06 Jul 2017, 12:01 »

As to our ancient human-likes.   They're not human with these changes and additions they have are they, almost a new life form based upon humans, but obviously not entirely natural or purely organic.  Not with these powers to do decidedly non-human things, like moving in warp or ripping off and tearing apart your own arm or not sleeping, whatever each has or is able to get.  Overall they are adjusted by DNA manipulation, breeding, cloning; genetic bespoking, whatever.  During each individual's "construction" also apparently cybernetic augmentation, nanobot cells, bionics.  Super-strong, nigh-invincible, extremely long-lived/effectively immortal, self-regenerating,  not requiring oxygen or suitable temperatures.   Something that lives 250,000 years (or what have you), is genetically tailor-made to destroy, self-repairing supersteelish instead of bones, and with artificial fiber muscles, can survive at least near-orbit space.....  Humaniform somethings.

Post-humans.
Also: Alice, sweetie, you've got uh... something in your uh... eye, there. You might wanna get that looked at. Or something?
« Last Edit: 06 Jul 2017, 12:19 by Verteiron »
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OldGoat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #161 on: 06 Jul 2017, 12:32 »

Alice, sweetie, you've got uh... something in your uh... eye, there. You might wanna get that looked at. Or something?

The hungry gleam?  Jesper sees it.   :lol:
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sitnspin

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #162 on: 06 Jul 2017, 13:12 »

Quote from: Sorflakne
It's probably why the aliens haven't invaded yet.  Even if they vastly out-tech us, they know that taking our planet is going to be a massive slog and resource drain.
Invasions in general are a huge slog and rarely worth the effort. If aliens want access to our rapidly depleting resources, there are much easier and efficient ways to get them than invasion.
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@syleegrrl

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #163 on: 06 Jul 2017, 15:57 »

I think Pate is not long for this world at this point.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #164 on: 06 Jul 2017, 16:05 »

I'm kind of hoping Sedna gets up in a second and groans "ohhhhh...man. that was intense."
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GhostlyJorg

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #165 on: 06 Jul 2017, 16:10 »

Alice, sweetie, you've got uh... something in your uh... eye, there. You might wanna get that looked at. Or something?

It's the same thing that happened to Church here: http://www.alicegrove.com/post/152175316869/bravery
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #166 on: 06 Jul 2017, 17:33 »

I have a dim hope that "What are you?" is going to lead to exposition.
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Castlerook

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #167 on: 06 Jul 2017, 17:45 »

"What are you?"

(click to show/hide)
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #168 on: 07 Jul 2017, 02:03 »

I remember the days when I used to check the comic once in a handful of weeks to catch up, rather than every couple of hours.  :psyduck:
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #169 on: 07 Jul 2017, 03:13 »

I'm starting to get a Glasshouse vibe out of the recent developments.

EDIT: and maybe praeses ≈ oankali?

Also, rereading old strips, Ardent is dreaming of a something that looks like a whale in a pink sky (gas giant? John Varley?)
« Last Edit: 07 Jul 2017, 04:37 by zmeiat_joro »
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #170 on: 07 Jul 2017, 04:34 »

I really don't understand what Alice is saying here.
It's funny that... Sedna figured out... That they could kill Church by stabbing him in the throat with a weapon while his guard was down?
Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the best way to kill people usually? Alice has clearly used weapons on Church before.
Or am I misunderstanding what she means by 'Force multiplier'? Is there a Jedi doing math just off-screen?
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sitnspin

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #171 on: 07 Jul 2017, 04:48 »


Quote
Force multiplication, in military science and warfare, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or group
Sedna's inherent strength combined with the inherent structural integrity of her bones was more powerful than either factors we're separately. Alice is impressed Sedna thought about that before she did.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #172 on: 07 Jul 2017, 05:11 »


Quote
Force multiplication, in military science and warfare, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or group
Sedna's inherent strength combined with the inherent structural integrity of her bones was more powerful than either factors we're separately. Alice is impressed Sedna thought about that before she did.
But... That's still incredibly obvious. If that really is all that 'Force multiplier' means in this context, then Sedna's idea amounted to 'Use a weapon', which should not have been a surprise to Alice, because we have seen Alice use a weapon on Church pre-Blink.
(Also: It's worth pointing out that Sedna was strong enough to snap one of her bones in half while holding it with one hand and her teeth. That does not imply the kind of structural integrity that would make for a particularly imposing weapon against someone as indestructible as Church.)
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Castlerook

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #173 on: 07 Jul 2017, 07:49 »


Quote
Force multiplication, in military science and warfare, refers to an attribute or a combination of attributes that dramatically increases (hence "multiplies") the effectiveness of an item or group
Sedna's inherent strength combined with the inherent structural integrity of her bones was more powerful than either factors we're separately. Alice is impressed Sedna thought about that before she did.
But... That's still incredibly obvious. If that really is all that 'Force multiplier' means in this context, then Sedna's idea amounted to 'Use a weapon', which should not have been a surprise to Alice, because we have seen Alice use a weapon on Church pre-Blink.
(Also: It's worth pointing out that Sedna was strong enough to snap one of her bones in half while holding it with one hand and her teeth. That does not imply the kind of structural integrity that would make for a particularly imposing weapon against someone as indestructible as Church.)

Force multiplication is a general term, the idea being that a force can take advantage of their environment/resources/abilities and use that advantage to do much, much more than they would without it. It doesn't have to be physical, but rather a mental advantage. In this case, you have Sedna ripping off her crippled arm and fashioning a bone shiv from it in a matter of seconds. Its not stabbing Church in the neck, its the actually act of ripping off her arm, tearing a chunk of meat off the bone and snapping a shard off. Its the sheer insanity of the act, because really, what kind of rational person with maim themselves like that to take down an enemy?! Who would think that someone would do that to themselves?! The element of surprise can be a powerful and devastating means of force multiplication.

Lets put it this way, if you have ever read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, he writes that the worst thing a commander can do is to drive an enemy force into a corner and giving them no way out. Why? Because the enemy has nothing to lose and will fight with even more ferocity under the belief that they are dead already.
« Last Edit: 07 Jul 2017, 10:58 by TheEvilDog »
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A Duck

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #174 on: 07 Jul 2017, 09:33 »

It occurs to me that Alice Grove will be the right length to be made into a movie without being horribly butchered. Maybe that's the idea?
I'm sure Jeph will at least collect it in book form
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #175 on: 07 Jul 2017, 12:39 »

Force multiplication is a general term, the idea being that a force can take advantage of their environment/resources/abilities and use that advantage to do much, much more than they would without it. It doesn't have to be physical, but rather a mental advantage. In this case, you have Sedna ripping off her crippled arm and fashioning a bone shiv from it in a matter of seconds. Its not stabbing Church in the neck, its the actually act of ripping off her arm, tearing a chunk of meat off the bone and snapping a shard off. Its the sheer insanity of the act, because really, what kind of rational person with maim themselves like that to take down an enemy?! Who would think that someone would do that to themselves?! The element of surprise can be a powerful and devastating means of force multiplication.

Lets put it this way, if you have ever read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, he writes that the worst thing a commander can do is to drive an enemy force into a corner and giving them no way out. Why? Because the enemy has nothing to lose and will fight with even more ferocity under the belief that they are dead already.
Okay, but this isn't a case of 'A far superior opponent with more strength, training, and experience was taken by surprise by a desperate act'.
It's a case of 'An enemy who was shown to be impervious to literally everything else was killed by a weapon that has no demonstrable reason to have been sturdier than previous weapons.'
Church was strong enough to shatter Sedna's bones by squeezing his hand slightly, with neither buildup nor any leverage. This does not imply that her bones will make particularly strong weapons.
Later, we see that it takes him Consecutive Normal Punches to get through the faceplate of Alice's armor, and that his bonecrushing strength is so dampened by her body armor that she survives a massive pummeling and is able to stand a couple minutes later, implying that the armor is INCREDIBLY strong relative to unshielded Sedna bones. Chruch's armor is at least as strong as Alice's, and can take hits from orbital laser cannons and warhammers built to kill supersoldiers, but... Does absolutely nothing against a shrapnelly bone?

I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
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OldGoat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #176 on: 07 Jul 2017, 13:22 »

I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
No, it doesn't.  Fictional stories are like that.  You can't be stingy with the suspension of disbelief when you follow them.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #177 on: 07 Jul 2017, 14:38 »

I'm pretty sure Pate knows what Alice is. ISTR that he noticed that she was like Church, just not as strong or fast. Which raises the question of who he's addressing his question to.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #178 on: 07 Jul 2017, 15:07 »

I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.
No, it doesn't.  Fictional stories are like that.  You can't be stingy with the suspension of disbelief when you follow them.
YeaNo.
That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
Suspension of disbelief is "I'll buy that this world has magic in it, and that characters have superhuman abilities that don't really exist". Or it can be "I'll buy that this world is populated entirely be attractive people with razor wit and acute self-awareness".
Suspension of disbelief is NOT "I will ignore major inconsistencies within a story's internal logic."

I'm fine that Godzilla couldn't really exist because of the square-cube law. But if Godzilla was just fine for 90% of the movie, then took a bad step and broke both his ankles because of his weight being too much for them to support, the movie would be bad.


This is important, too, because a story lives and dies on setup and payoff. (To make a sidenote: Subversion is still a form of payoff, as are intentional anticlimaxes.) If something isn't properly set up, it risks coming off as a deus ex machina, and is never as satisfying as something with actual buildup. If something is set up, and then that setup is directly contradicted or ignored, it robs the scene of tension and robs the whole story of consequence.
The whole scene with Church's death has so many plot holes and inconsistencies and elements that are either yet-to-be-explained or are simply never going to be explained that it is effectively impossible for any reader to realize that it could have happened. It's a deus ex machina, and it removes the largest source of conflict from the story at a moment when the drama should be rising, not falling. It's a bad payoff that weakens everything around it and cheapens the supposed threat and tension of the current situation.

I'm not going to bother listing the multitudes of reasons why this was either implausible, implied to be impossible, contradictory, or just poorly telgraphed, but there are lots of them. As a reader, you'd need to make assumptions verging on fanfiction to explain them all away.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #179 on: 07 Jul 2017, 15:20 »

Okay, but this isn't a case of 'A far superior opponent with more strength, training, and experience was taken by surprise by a desperate act'.
It's a case of 'An enemy who was shown to be impervious to literally everything else was killed by a weapon that has no demonstrable reason to have been sturdier than previous weapons.'
Church was strong enough to shatter Sedna's bones by squeezing his hand slightly, with neither buildup nor any leverage. This does not imply that her bones will make particularly strong weapons.
Later, we see that it takes him Consecutive Normal Punches to get through the faceplate of Alice's armor, and that his bonecrushing strength is so dampened by her body armor that she survives a massive pummeling and is able to stand a couple minutes later, implying that the armor is INCREDIBLY strong relative to unshielded Sedna bones. Chruch's armor is at least as strong as Alice's, and can take hits from orbital laser cannons and warhammers built to kill supersoldiers, but... Does absolutely nothing against a shrapnelly bone?

I'm saying that the physics of the thing don't make logical sense.

We know next to nothing about the Super Soldiers of Alice Grove; how are they created? Were they born and modified later in life? Were they grown in test tubes or in artificial wombs? Are they genetically engineered or modified with cybernetics or nanotechnology? Did different classes of super soldier get different levels of treatment/modification? Were they psychologically programmed to keep them in line (Sedna's compulsion to maintain machinery and Church's compulsion to serve)?  Or were they just giving drugs like Germany did with Pervitin during the Second World War.

You're asking questions to something we have no clue about. Could it be that the bones of the Super Soldier are laced with some nanomolecular polymer and makes their bones that much stronger? Because we've seen Alice and Church deliver punches that should turn their bones to dust.

As for the physics, armour can be resistant, but not resistant. Armour that is resistant to projectiles and blunt impacts could potentially be vulnerable to bladed and piercing weapons (knives). When a projectile is fired, it's basically expending energy as it passes through the air. Armour basically works by slowing a projectile, usually by passing through layers of materials, meaning that it should transfer that kinetic energy before it can harm the person wearing it. Knives and other stabbing weapons are able to maintain constant energy as they pierce the armour, meaning that armour designed for projectiles are useless.

So given that we don't know the details of what made Alice, Sedna and Church, there must be some serious modifications involved if the three of them can suffer the insane damage they have and remain standing (well, until the latest comic) and at this stage it would make sense for them to be able to turn themselves into weapons.

And if that doesn't suffice, then might I suggest the MST3K mantra, which is also the mantra for the comic discussion forum.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #180 on: 07 Jul 2017, 15:44 »

I've explained why this doesn't fall under 'Suspension of disbelief' (or the MST3K Mantra, if you prefer) and is a significant problem.
As for the physics... No, it doesn't make sense, unless you interpret every single possibility in the most generous way and ignore all the other problems. For a plot point this important, it should speak for itself, not require generous reinterpretation of the information given.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #181 on: 07 Jul 2017, 16:25 »


That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
Suspension of disbelief is "I'll buy that this world has magic in it, and that characters have superhuman abilities that don't really exist". Or it can be "I'll buy that this world is populated entirely be attractive people with razor wit and acute self-awareness".
Suspension of disbelief is NOT "I will ignore major inconsistencies within a story's internal logic."
That may be your, well, belief, but need it be true for everyone? Its funny, as I get older I spot more and more plot holes in stories I enjoy  but I don't let it spoil my emjoyment of the whole. As its probably next to impossible to create an absolutely consistent tale I think its probably just as well. Otherwise I risk ending up as the sort of sad git who writes scholarly papers about Shakespeare's errors but has forgotten about enjoying the plays...
« Last Edit: 08 Jul 2017, 02:08 by JimC »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #182 on: 07 Jul 2017, 16:32 »

There's a class distinction between Church and Sedna within the military organization they derive from. Church is a front line fighter. Sedna's a maintenance/tinkerer resource. Rear echelon support staff multiply the effectiveness of the force.

She engineered her humerus into a super sharp, possibly nano-thin at the point katana while Church had written her off as a threat. I understand Alice to be saying that Sedna herself is the force multiplier.

I also think, given the title of the comic, we still don't know what Alice's true nature is, so Pate's question is valid.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #183 on: 07 Jul 2017, 16:40 »


That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
Suspension of disbelief is "I'll buy that this world has magic in it, and that characters have superhuman abilities that don't really exist". Or it can be "I'll buy that this world is populated entirely be attractive people with razor wit and acute self-awareness".
Suspension of disbelief is NOT "I will ignore major inconsistencies within a story's internal logic."
That may be your, well  belief, but need it be true for everyone? Its funny, ss I get older I spot more and more plot holes in stories I enjoy  bit I dont letvot spoil my emjoyment of the whole. As its probanly next to impossible to create an absolutely consisyent tale I think its probably just ss well. Otherwise I risk ending up as the sort of sad git who writes scholarly papers.about Shakespeares errors but has forgotten about emjoying the plays...
Well... No, that's not my belief, that's what the term means. (And yes, I'm aware that at its most basic it is simply 'A willingness to believe the unbelievable', but in storytelling terminology the phrase carries more meaning than that.)
I'm not saying that the story can't be enjoyed with a flaw like this. One of my favorite films is Mad Max: Fury Road, which ends with a character who has displayed no supernatural strength up to this point (and neither has anyone else) ripping a bolted down, many-tons engine out of the War Rig. I'm saying that these holes make the story weaker. Alice Grove is not terrible, but this was a bad decision that took what could have been a really powerful, exciting moment of payoff and turned it into a neat bit of art that solves a problem in the story, I guess. It doesn't kill the comic, it just lessens it.

Jeph has never been great with this type of storytelling, but I was hoping he'd get better at it by the end of Alice Grove. So far, he hasn't.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #184 on: 07 Jul 2017, 17:29 »

I'm beginning to think we're not going to get a strip today.  I'm not complaining since we got almost a month's worth in one week, but I don't know if we'll have to wait a week to find out who Alice is. 
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #185 on: 07 Jul 2017, 17:50 »

I'm pretty sure Pate knows what Alice is. ISTR that he noticed that she was like Church, just not as strong or fast. Which raises the question of who he's addressing his question to.
I submit that Pate thought he knew what Alice is, but is surprised and dismayed that he isn't as well informed as he believed.  Or at least that's how I'm reading the facial expression Jeph gave him.

He's not a big guy and hasn't shown much in the way of any form of physical prowess, yet he's at the top of the food chain in the city state he rules.  That means he's pretty damn good at collecting, analyzing, and using information.  Realizing that his information is nowhere near as complete as he thought it was is terrifying, especially since it looks like his principle enforcer is down for the count* if not dead.  He's thinking, "Shitohdear Jesper, they might kill you!"

*Again, note that in panel 2 Alice speaks of the neck-pierced, brain-punctured, down-on-the-floor-in-a-pool-of-his-own-blood Church in the present tense.  He'll self-repair, but it's going to take him long enough that Alice feels no urgency with regard to dealing with him.
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LKR1009

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #186 on: 07 Jul 2017, 19:33 »

@brasca: I am feeling super spoiled by all of these strips Jeph has generously posted consecutively! If it's going to wrap up soon, I think I'm happiest receiving them rapidfire so I have been habitually refreshing the page.  :-D
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #187 on: 07 Jul 2017, 20:12 »

Oh, and then there's this:
[tweet]882988422775832579[/tweet]
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Tova

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #188 on: 07 Jul 2017, 20:14 »

@emsilly

This is a comic discussion forum. If milkmaxs has a criticism of a plot point of the comic then they are entitled to air it here, just as much as you or anyone is entitled to talk about the points we liked.

Personal insults of other forum members, on the other hand, tend to get frowned upon.

There's no need to take any comic criticism quite so much to heart as you appear to have done. If it makes you this unhappy, I'd suggest refraining from engagement.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #189 on: 07 Jul 2017, 20:51 »

I'm not going to bother listing the multitudes of reasons why this was either implausible, implied to be impossible, contradictory, or just poorly telgraphed, but there are lots of them. As a reader, you'd need to make assumptions verging on fanfiction to explain them all away.

If you're not, could you maybe shut up about it? Just a thought.

Your posts are so far the only ones that have made me not want to continue reading the discussion thread. Your posts basically just read like "it's shit because it's shit because Jeph is a shit storyteller".

Every single superhero movie or show I've ever seen is entirely physically implausible. I don't whine about it on internet forums though, because these shows by their very premise do not work on the same rules that the real world does. Since your posts read like a bad TV Tropes rant, here's a Tropes article for you:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

You have paid literally nothing for this content, but you are acting like an entitled child and insisting that the author should have written a story that you would find personally satisfying.

Grow up.
I wasn't going to list it all because I've posted many, many reasons in my various posts, just not in a list.
Also, again, being implausible is fine, but you need to be implausible and consistent. Superman is indestructible and can fly and is weak to a magic rock? Sure! But if he could suddenly pause time and read the future without an explanation as to why, then we'd have a problem.

Also also, this content was stretch goal on a Kickstarter that Jeph ran. So yes, I actually did pay for this content. That being said, I'd be saying the exact same thing if it hadn't been.
Also also also, this is a forum for discussing the comic. Are we only allowed to discuss happy things?


Like, I don't mind if we disagree, but you seem to have completely ignored all of my posts. I list reasons for why I'm not happy with the content. Very thorough, detailed reasons, both from a storytelling standpoint, and from a logical consistency/plausibility standpoint - If anything, I was worried that I was overexplaining. I never said that Jeph is shit. I never said that the story is shit.

Jeph is good at lots of things - Art, character dialogue, funny punchlines, personal character arcs. I'm glad that he's experimenting and learning new things. However, doing new things will almost always lead to those new things being initially bad, because you are still learning them. That's FINE. However, those new creations aren't immune to criticism because they're new, or they're free. If he's going to do something new, and risk doing it badly, I'm going to talk about what I like and what I don't like. Currently, all the potentially interesting/good elements of the story are up in the air, and their quality will depend on how well the reveals are executed in coming panels. The only thing that has a semi-solid resolution is that Church has been effectively eliminated.


Since I'm in a hotel room now and have nothing to do until I go to bed, I might as well compile that list now.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #190 on: 07 Jul 2017, 21:56 »

Alright, list! (This isn't to make any point I haven't already made, I'm just compiling everything, so I'm gonna slide this in a spoiler. It's an infodump. The point is not that any one of these issues breaks the suspension of disbelief, it's that all of them combined create too much of a burden of implausibility.)

(click to show/hide)
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brasca

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #191 on: 08 Jul 2017, 00:18 »

I'm pretty sure Pate knows what Alice is. ISTR that he noticed that she was like Church, just not as strong or fast. Which raises the question of who he's addressing his question to.
I submit that Pate thought he knew what Alice is, but is surprised and dismayed that he isn't as well informed as he believed.  Or at least that's how I'm reading the facial expression Jeph gave him.

He's not a big guy and hasn't shown much in the way of any form of physical prowess, yet he's at the top of the food chain in the city state he rules.  That means he's pretty damn good at collecting, analyzing, and using information.  Realizing that his information is nowhere near as complete as he thought it was is terrifying, especially since it looks like his principle enforcer is down for the count* if not dead.  He's thinking, "Shitohdear Jesper, they might kill you!"

*Again, note that in panel 2 Alice speaks of the neck-pierced, brain-punctured, down-on-the-floor-in-a-pool-of-his-own-blood Church in the present tense.  He'll self-repair, but it's going to take him long enough that Alice feels no urgency with regard to dealing with him.

Perhaps, but they shouldn't dawdle for too long keeping Pate in check.  If Church can survive that attack then he'll be recovering shortly. 
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JimC

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #192 on: 08 Jul 2017, 02:43 »

Well... No, that's not my belief, that's what the term means.
You appear to be on the borders of telling me what I should be thinking. Humpty Dumpty applies.

In this sort of circumstance I'm reminded of something in UK comics history. The comic 2000AD used to use, from time to time, an artist called Massimo Belardinelli, sadly no longer with us, who produced totally wonderful surrealist fantastic images, but had in some eyes the perceived fault that his 'human' characters tended to acquire some of the surreal features of his other characters. This offended those who for some reason thought that in fantasy comic artwork  every apparently human figure should have art school correct human anatomy. Think about how well that would have worked with say Picasso's art... Anyway, this art school correct anatomy way of thinking acquired an excessive influence on 2000Ads editorial policy at the time (something that they have gone into print as regretting with hindsight) with the result that Belardinelli was desperately underused, much to the loss of those of us whose suspension of belief included that we didn't much care how accurately the extensor carpi radialis longus muscle was portrayed in a story that included faster than light space travel...

I'll also venture to suggest that pointing out perceived plot holes to those who haven't noticed them is at least as much of a 'spoiler' as anything else one might do. So I fully support your decision to put your list in spoiler tags. For myself I tend to slide over such things, but maybe with hindsight there's some other things you might wish to edit and put in spoiler tags for future readers? I'm quite comfortable (as is obvious) with discussing aspects of the plot and story development, but I am much less comfortable with detailed criticism of plot holes and the like without spoiler tags, simply because such risks detracting the enjoyment of the strip from those who haven't spotted them. I recall decades ago someone voicing a specific criticism of a piece of music I loved. I don't think the criticism is valid, yet it still comes to mind, and detracts from my enjoyment of the music.

(click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: 08 Jul 2017, 04:16 by JimC »
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blt

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #193 on: 08 Jul 2017, 06:51 »

I never understood the idea of "you can't question it, because it was in the script".  When did you stop being allowed criticize art?

That being said I don't really have an issue, suspension of disbelief-wise, with Sedna's attack, since we know so little about the super soliders.  I just think it's a little rushed and could have been better handled.  Alice's explanation is a little lame too.
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #194 on: 08 Jul 2017, 07:18 »

To be clear, my problem isn't simply that it doesn't make sense, my problem is that it doesn't make sense in such a way that contradicts the established rules and stakes of the story. The story has gone to incredible lengths to show how indestructible Church is.

If there had been a moment where Alice said something like, "Our bones are the hardest objects on the planet, only another supersoldier can break them, etc," it wouldn't adhere to any set of physical laws that I'm aware of, but that wouldn't matter - The rules of the story would have been established in a self-consistent way.

By breaking its own rules (both literal and thematic,) the story undercuts itself and makes me unwilling to either care about the stakes or try and guess what's going to happen. Why should I bother? The story lied about what was actually a problem and what was possible.
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JimC

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #195 on: 08 Jul 2017, 08:21 »

If there had been a moment where Alice said something like, "Our bones are the hardest objects on the planet, only another supersoldier can break them, etc," it wouldn't adhere to any set of physical laws that I'm aware of, but that wouldn't matter - The rules of the story would have been established in a self-consistent way.
Can't help thinking that the bunker demolition in http://www.alicegrove.com/post/154299453294/bam would not have gone well with steel or carbon fibre bones.
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retrosteve

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #196 on: 08 Jul 2017, 10:44 »

Alright, list! (This isn't to make any point I haven't already made, I'm just compiling everything, so I'm gonna slide this in a spoiler. It's an infodump. The point is not that any one of these issues breaks the suspension of disbelief, it's that all of them combined create too much of a burden of implausibility.)


Agreed, and you've listed the sticking points out nicely, as I see it.

I am still hoping that there's another reveal coming that will make all of this bone vs. armor suddenly make sense. It has to be, at this point, a reveal based on a setup we've already seen (like the barehanded bunker busting), and is an unforeseen but logical consequence of that setup. 

I am losing faith that we'll see it, but I haven't totally lost hope.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #197 on: 08 Jul 2017, 11:32 »

I'm not worried by the bone-weapon, nor that the flexible part of Church's armour round his throat might be more vulnerable than other parts (yes, we can make up our own additions to the story's fantasies!); my problem with Sedna's attack is simply time - knowing how fast Church can be, for her to rip off her arm, clear the flesh off the bone, then come at him from behind, all before he even reaches Alice, is a combination of actions that just doesn't fit into the time available.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #198 on: 08 Jul 2017, 12:23 »

I'm getting the vibe that Jeph really wants to have Alice Grove done ASAP (He has basically said so) and is now rushing his narrative a bit. I agree with a bunch of the above points that the story has contradicted itself and I am also willing to see it out to the end to see basically what Alice is and how the story resolves.  Alice has always been more of a side project with Jeph and I wonder if he will be focused more on QC once it concludes or if he has another project in the works and really needs AG closed so he can focus more on it.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #199 on: 08 Jul 2017, 13:09 »

Let's not forget that Ardent and Gavia have learned that their whole life has been a simulation.

Whose to say that this isn't a simulation?

Inception-mode engaged!
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