Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

  • 26 May 2020, 20:02
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

What will Ardent's answer reveal?

Exactly what he said, a friend hacked the transporter console and he woke up on Earth.
It was actually someone no one ever heard of that promised this and Alice was wrong about the Praeses.
The Praeses are playing dumb and Laridia is just there to convince them they had nothing to do with Ardent going to Earth.
There's actually a rogue element among the Praeses in cahoots with a mysterious 3rd party.
Nothing.  Spookybot will wake up suddenly and realize this was all just a nightmare.

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 13   Go Down

Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?  (Read 89232 times)

moriastar

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #300 on: 11 Jul 2017, 18:19 »

So, sorry I'm late to this and I tried to read through everyones comments to make sure I'm not repeating. I apologize if I missed someone's post that said the same thing.

Concerning why they don't use their powers like crazy- the statement was the event horizon of the blackhole would simply get bigger the more they broke the rules around them. This means if they aren't careful a blackhole could get so big as to put their world in danger. Church may have been more crazy and a little more loose with his abilities because of relative distance to his world is far greater than the others, but still close enough to be somewhat careful. Alice's could be much closer (say center of our galaxy) and thus she wouldn't want to risk the power up needed to take Church on.

Now a theory on the death of most and everything going on. If my above theory is correct, then someone who's black hole was the furthest possible away of all would have the most power. Alice may know what really happened but didn't cause it. She may have indirectly caused it however. Perhaps someone cared for her very deeply that was on the same level as her and Church. This someone heard how Alice wanted the war to end. That there were only a few options that the human  race could live in peace. This person, with their black hole being so far away and their desire to make Alice be happy and at peace took those ideas and made them all happen in an instant. This would involve destroying the lives of everyone who could potentially create the path for this level of tech again. it meant Alice didn't have to worry... and possibly the person disappeared into what we would consider nothingness. Why nothing? Well, possibly they thought that Alice would then be able to make the others disappear. Perhaps they used themselves up TRYING to make the others disappear and couldn't because they can all bend reality too... meaning they didn't disappear because they thought they SHOULD exist. Or that one disappeared because Alice made them think they shouldn't exist by accident. Which means what Alice said would have been true minus her personal theories, but she'd feel responsible once she realized what her words probably did and the missing companion.

Which now takes me back to one thing we may have forgotten about by now. The Nanobots that shot off the beam to the moon could be a failsafe. If the two separate worlds should come together, perhaps the missing weapon then can try resetting everything again if they did not cease to exist.

I'm sorry my thoughts are a bit all over. These are just various theories I have.
Logged

DaiJB

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 169
  • Dazed and bemused by this thing called Reality
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #301 on: 11 Jul 2017, 18:33 »

I wonder - would Alice have let Pate live if he had just admitted that he had done things wrong?
But instead, his last words were just self-aggrandizing and finger-pointing... so, Goodbye Mr. Pate.
Logged

Stoutfellow

  • Curry sauce
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 260
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #302 on: 11 Jul 2017, 18:36 »

Or, in the words of Cordelia Vorkosigan: Wrong answer.
Logged

WareWolf

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
  • Makin' This Up As I Go
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #303 on: 11 Jul 2017, 18:41 »

Walker: "Oh, I get it. Moral ambiguity. The hallmark of all early 20th-century American fiction."
Texas Ranger: "Great analysis, Walker."
Walker: "Thank you."
Logged

Tova

  • comeback tour!
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,626
  • Defender of the Terrible Denizens of QC
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #304 on: 11 Jul 2017, 18:54 »

I wonder - would Alice have let Pate live if he had just admitted that he had done things wrong?

Personally, I doubt it.
Logged
I've sworn an oath of solitude until the pestilence is purged from the lands.

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,972
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #305 on: 11 Jul 2017, 19:14 »

Quote
Alice was a weapon, one designed to destroy any enemies in her path. Pate was just another in a very long line of enemies.

Consider that before we judge Alice.

She was able to spare Ardent's life even though he was an ongoing danger. She has free will to the extent any of us does. She could have refrained from murdering someone who had been consummately nerfed. She has probably asked herself why she didn't pull back during the war, before she became a thousand Hitlers.

Not that it's his fault or justifies his death, but Mr. Pate might have stopped to think that it reduced his chances of living to remind her of how many times she'd killed before.
Logged
"Non-compliance is a social skill"
Quote from: an unnamed minister's sermon
In your face, darkness!  We are the light and we outnumber you!

A small perverse otter

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 219
  • Staying well enhydrated
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #306 on: 11 Jul 2017, 19:37 »

I wonder - would Alice have let Pate live if he had just admitted that he had done things wrong?

Personally, I doubt it.
Yeah, me neither. I don't see Alice as being terribly obsessed with the notion of "redemption", her own or anybody else's.

Logged
"AGH! Humans are so STUPID sometimes!" -- QC #3668

WareWolf

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 232
  • Makin' This Up As I Go
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #307 on: 11 Jul 2017, 19:38 »



Not that it's his fault or justifies his death, but Mr. Pate might have stopped to think that it reduced his chances of living to remind her of how many times she'd killed before.

"You're a mass murderer."

"Yes." DEATHSTRIKE.
Logged

A small perverse otter

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 219
  • Staying well enhydrated
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #308 on: 11 Jul 2017, 19:40 »

If all the Praeses' simulations are equally 'real', then maybe Pate missed a key point: humankind is bound to this Hell in this simulation, but maybe not in all simulations? Perhaps there are simulations in which he becomes a dictator, and the outcome is not very nice.
Logged
"AGH! Humans are so STUPID sometimes!" -- QC #3668

dexeron

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
    • My Twitter
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #309 on: 11 Jul 2017, 19:54 »

And now we see Alice is fundamentally the same. Fortunately, she is compelled to serve humanity,

That actually makes her more potentially terrifying than Church.  Her only moral compass is "that which serves humanity."  Any act, no matter how violent, no matter how depraved, is permissible if she can rationalize it as being ultimately in the best interests of humanity.

Asimov's "Zeroth Law." Leto's "Golden Path."  All serve the greater good.  All are, ultimately, necessary.  But all are freaking terrifying to the average person who might inadvertently stumble into the path of their unfeeling, pitiless, unstoppable wheels.
Logged

Castlerook

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,075
  • Captain Sarcastic
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #310 on: 11 Jul 2017, 20:07 »

Quote
Alice was a weapon, one designed to destroy any enemies in her path. Pate was just another in a very long line of enemies.

Consider that before we judge Alice.

She was able to spare Ardent's life even though he was an ongoing danger. She has free will to the extent any of us does. She could have refrained from murdering someone who had been consummately nerfed. She has probably asked herself why she didn't pull back during the war, before she became a thousand Hitlers.

Not that it's his fault or justifies his death, but Mr. Pate might have stopped to think that it reduced his chances of living to remind her of how many times she'd killed before.

The difference could simply be that Ardent didn't intend to hurt anyone, while Pate knew exactly the kind of damage Church could do. Otherwise why let the rabid attack dog off the chain, so to speak?
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

Neko_Ali

Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #311 on: 11 Jul 2017, 20:15 »

Which is an important point to those leaping to Pate's defense. He literally just tried to murder all of them by proxy. In fact, it was that act and Sedna's sacrifice that left him without his protector. The very moment he realized he was no longer being stopped by Gavia's blade,  his first thought was to kill them all. No talk about his 'desire to help humankind' changes the fact that given the ability he wanted to kill them, again. What else were they going to do with him?
Logged

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,972
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #312 on: 11 Jul 2017, 20:35 »

Ignore him? Arrest him? As a baseline human with no weapons or combat skills he was only slightly more dangerous than a stuffed animal.

New caption for all pictures of Alice: "She doesn't seem nice".
Logged
"Non-compliance is a social skill"
Quote from: an unnamed minister's sermon
In your face, darkness!  We are the light and we outnumber you!

Castlerook

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,075
  • Captain Sarcastic
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #313 on: 11 Jul 2017, 20:58 »

Yeah, ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away. In fact, ignoring a problem like Pate just allows them to fester and become worse later on.

Imprisoning him? Do prisons ever work in fiction? Because I'm pretty sure most of them have revolving doors installed and are made from cardboard.

Pate knows just enough to make him very dangerous. Not a direct threat to Alice, but more than capable of danger through ignorance. Suppose he is returned planetside and let go. What's to stop him from using information he no doubt gleamed from Church to look for some old bunkers. Church was nuts enough to probably note the biochemical sites or viral sites if those weapons were used during the war. If note, well there's always that old demon of war in the shape of nuclear weapons. A little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. Especially in the hands of someone like Pate. So no doubt in Alice's mind, why let him get to that point? How many more people would have to die because of him? At what point would those deaths become her responsibility?



Now, all things being said. I'm beginning to suspect that the one in prison is Alice. Some sort of timeloop or something, where each time she gets just that close to getting out, the whole thing resets. Every iteration is slightly different to keep her from getting complacent. This time its Argent and Gavia, but the next iteration could see a different pair. 5000 years of time looping? Could lead to quite a high body count. And it starts all over again.

Meaning I think the final scenes we see will be almost the same as the beginning: Someone running and calling to Alice who is working away on something.
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

Neko_Ali

Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #314 on: 11 Jul 2017, 21:03 »

Arrest him... and then what? The Praeses doesn't seem to care what the earthlings do. They're far out of the jurisdiction of Alice or Pate's domains. Pate may be harmless to Alice now, but what about the kids. Again, he just tried to have them killed, after kidnapping them and hauling them against their will and under the threat of killing them and/or the people at the dig site if they didn't comply? Ignore him? The last time they did that for a few seconds he tried to have them all killed. Just because his weapon is out of commission for now doesn't mean he won't try again if given another chance.
Logged

dexeron

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
    • My Twitter
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #315 on: 11 Jul 2017, 21:55 »

Oh god I just had a horrible thought.

Church's different colored eyes.

Spoiler for gore:

(click to show/hide)
Logged

brasca

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,316
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #316 on: 11 Jul 2017, 23:12 »

Wish I weren't so busy all of a sudden otherwise I could read through all of these posts since I don't want to be redundant. 

I think today's strip ultimately came down to a clash between philosophies and at the end of the day Alice is only marginally better than Pate.  Both have convincing arguments which I'm sure we could debate endlessly.  Alice believes humanity is better off being held back since she was there for the worst of it and perpetrated as much.  She's got more blood on her hands than all of Earth's worst tyrants combined.  Pate on the other hand believes that humanity is being unfairly restrained just because his ancestors made some mistakes.  He too is not without blood on his hands albeit indirectly and on a scale that's virtually nothing compared to Alice.  However, Alice now has qualms about killing needlessly.  If she ultimately decided that the end justifies the means she would've killed Ardent to prevent him from destabilizing the world.  Instead she kills Pate who was much in the same position Ardent was and with no remorse whatsoever.  http://www.alicegrove.com/post/126634213464/rip-ardent-you-were-very-blue

Perhaps things might've been different if Pate had demonstrated that he wasn't so ruthless to Ardent and Gavia.  If he ordered Church to restrain Sedna and Ellie he could've convinced Ardent and Gavia that Alice was the unstable one and that he was seeking to restore Earth to what it once was and would help them get back into orbit if he could tag along to chat with the Praeses.  Instead he had Church crush Sedna's shoulder, killed Ellie and was generally menacing once he dropped the facade.  And they in turn ultimately sabotaged his plans in such a way that lead to this eventual downfall. 

That being said there are a number of unanswered questions that I hope will be resolved in the few pages that remain. 

Alice, Church, and Sedna seem to be all that's left of the super soldiers which seems like a low number.  What happened to the rest?  Were they sealed away in lava or something else that could contain them indefinitely or did they conspire with Alice to save humanity from themselves and collectively used up all their powers to trigger the blink.  Alice, however, chose to remain behind to atone for what she did and keep humanity from making the same mistakes.  Or maybe the other soldiers became the Praeses. 

And what of Alice's mission to keep humanity in an agrarian dark age?  It's been 5000 years and this is all the progress there is.  Maybe Alice is responsible for killing other ambitious leaders and destroying strong kingdoms to prevent history from repeating itself.  Even if she tries to avoid a lot of collateral damage the pain and suffering she inflicts probably doesn't make her feel any better about herself. 

And who was it that sent Ardent and Gavia to Earth?  Was it a Praeses trying to test the waters or a faction we have yet to see?
Logged

JimC

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 522
  • Alice liked fluffy toys...
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #317 on: 12 Jul 2017, 00:51 »

Another thought to ponder is that Alice has stated ( http://www.alicegrove.com/post/101720779304/ardent-gets-it , http://www.alicegrove.com/post/126112043354/at-last-the-central-conflict-of-alice-grove-is ) that the world exists in carefully balanced harmony. Alice and Sedna can't have been doing that on their own, especially as they weren't even aware Church was active. Who (else?) was doing the balancing?
Logged

starkruzr

  • Emoticontraindication
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 50
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #318 on: 12 Jul 2017, 07:05 »

Pate is bad, but he's also not wrong. Holding humanity in stagnation is fucked up.
Logged

JimC

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 522
  • Alice liked fluffy toys...
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #319 on: 12 Jul 2017, 07:15 »

Holding humanity in stagnation is fucked up.
Who says? The balanced, sustainable non-destructive lifestyle of the post blink earth seems to resemble the ideals of the green movement, and if you take the Benthamitte idea of greatest good o the greatest number then an earth where no-one is in want, everyone has safe lives etc etc looks awfully good to what a lot of the world's population experiences now. One person's stagnation may be another person's blissful contentment.
Logged

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #320 on: 12 Jul 2017, 08:22 »

Oh god I just had a horrible thought.

Church's different colored eyes.

Spoiler for gore:

(click to show/hide)

I'm not certain she didn't just slap Pate.  Enough to break his face, but still a slap.  We've seen Alice's  spear hand before, here and here - fingers all straight and parallel, wrist straight, hand in line with the forearm, elbow cocked back, arm pointed at her target.  This time her hand is pointing up, fingers more relaxed, wrist bent.  She's poised for a swat, not a stab.  That would serve to underline her point to Jesper, "Church isn't in any position to come to your defense."

Or she may have chopped into the bridge of his nose and killed the irritating little pipsqueak.
Logged

Mark7

  • Pneumatic ratchet pants
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 319
  • My sandbox is crunchy
    • My Music
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #321 on: 12 Jul 2017, 08:28 »

It's basically the same thing as with the Reapers from Mass Effect:
(click to show/hide)

(click to show/hide)

Also, someone on reddit posted THIS in regards to Alice's powers.

Observation. Jeph's a Look Around You fan
Logged
Will be at your local record store this Friday handing out the hot dickings

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #322 on: 12 Jul 2017, 08:41 »

Something I just noticed - Jeph usually draws Alice with quite a lot of expression in her face, but in the last two frames here she's wearing a flat affect like Church does most of the time when he's "on bodyguard duty." (The only time he lets any expression through is when he's prosecuting a personal grudge.)
Logged

derech

  • Plantmonster
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 28
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #323 on: 12 Jul 2017, 09:28 »

Well, assuming any of them are real real and assuming Pate is dead and no longer a danger to anyone.

Honor, justice, morality, being practical, and various  higher, advanced thought-pattern sentiments.   Clothing and feeding a freezing starving immature being of  one's species is likely fairly clearly on the side of some more absolute good, something just and desirable, as it would be the other way around should the recipient of such benefit murder their benefactor for some willful but arbitrary reason.  That's all somewhat more subjective at some times than others, certainly, requires awareness and intent and understanding.   Also, something like willfully torturing Ardent for hours for your own amusement is on the evil side of things, as would be betraying your closest ally on a whim or for an amount of money you'd consider trivial, even if it had been foretold, even had it been desired.      Not that some don't have a moral compass that works off of something more like anti-magnetism, not that some wouldn't agree with or side with such.

So then, what is the difference between an unwilling dupe harboring no ill-will and a knowing manipulator attempting to reach goals by any means needed regardless of who has to be hurt?  A cooperating potential danger in a somewhat known way versus a confrontational variable danger of unknown quality, there appears little correlate.   Not a fair thing to treat them equally, we might say.    Laws here and now, what system is that within?  Seems in this situation, Alice and her task of doing what she thinks best for everyone as a whole.   Altruistic, hopefully moderated by some higher goal rather than personal desire.    Her behavior seems so, at least out here.

Still, laws in general don't always stop all behaviors they ostensibly mean to, they instead (when they fail to guide and push into conformity) mostly codify the consequences of behaving in ways that are undesired.   Laws in a social context, behaviors that are damaging to society.   Although some societies have different ideas of what evil might be, and similarly, some other society may just come take them to task for how they operate.   Potentially put in something worse.    One has to have intent though.  Free will, choices, understanding of actions, seems required here in such abstract things.   Regardless of how interesting the idea of evil horses or chickens is.

In any case, executing Pate for unleashing Church upon baseline humans.  Seems potentially fair.   But wait there's more.  For kidnapping four others including yourself.  Even more so,  for just recently basically ordering Church to go kill you.     Perhaps what Alice probably just did isn't "good", yet maybe somewhat justified, and probably a sort of justice for at least one murder Pate could have been counted as responsible for.  Again too, if Sedna is permanently out from having to get rid of Church because of Pate.   Demonstrably, there are a lot of reasons to consider Pate a greater danger who simply isn't currently in a position to do anything more.   Call it preemptive.  Or simply a delay, a bit of explanation before the already moving executioner's axe hit its mark.

If Alice is whatever destroyed everything in the Blink, as she just said, it appears more and more like some expected result of bleeding off something like what might have been "the event horizon having no surface left to store anything" and Alice being the one who released it to even everything out.    Reversing the irreversible, reducing the number of chances that normally only increase, shoving the genie back in the bottle with a rusty spatula.   Not what she'd have wanted perhaps, but better than the alternative probably. Which if these habitats like what they're on were the arks of sorts put into place by her before carrying out  that unfortunate but necessary action of flooding the world, that doesn't necessarily make her a villain, and it could even make her a hero.   Not that she doesn't feel bad about being the one who crushed the car so its metal could make a new one.

Nothing is wrong with Pate wanting more for humanity, perhaps he is correct.  Maybe his idea was workable, and would have left the Earth some paradise.    Or maybe he and Church would have taken over what's on Earth and in space and made everything far worse, heaven run by cruel manipulative sadistic overlords.  At least until Pate died, and then only Church.     Either way, Pate's methods seem to have left much to be desired, and even if they were good and pure in intent,  he appears to have paid for the manner of their implementation. 
Logged

LKR1009

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • I am an entropy magnet.
    • Facebork
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #324 on: 12 Jul 2017, 10:10 »

*refreshes once every 10 minutes*
Logged

LKR1009

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • I am an entropy magnet.
    • Facebork
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #325 on: 12 Jul 2017, 10:30 »

Aaaaand there it is.

Thanks, Jeph! ♡
Logged

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #326 on: 12 Jul 2017, 10:31 »

Comic's up!

Looks like Gavia is applying Nanobot Healing Mojo to Sedna's right shoulder, so I'm assuming she lives.  She does look pretty out of it, though.  If Church isn't dead, he's going to need some help recovering, too.

And Alice still has lizard eyes, but they're back to blue.
Logged

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,972
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #327 on: 12 Jul 2017, 10:50 »

Killing someone for their past deeds without legal process is the road to tyranny.

Killing someone because they might do something bad later is the road to evil.

Executing a POW is a war crime.

I have no argument with the temptation, but
Quote from: Gandalf
Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

----

What motivates the Praeses?
Logged
"Non-compliance is a social skill"
Quote from: an unnamed minister's sermon
In your face, darkness!  We are the light and we outnumber you!

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #328 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:03 »

Killing someone for their past deeds without legal process is the road to tyranny.
Just for the sake of argument:  What court will claim jurisdiction?  They're in orbit and the Praeses haven't shown much interest in anything beyond generating a border quarantine officer to deal with these newcomers.  If some constituted legal authority does elect to prosecute, Alice can (probably successfully) plea exigent circumstances.  It's looking like Pate's weapon, Church, will at some point revive which will again make Pate an active threat, and he has repeatedly demonstrated his hostile intent against her and her party.

Logged

Method of Madness

  • His Dudeness, or Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.
  • Globe Moderator
  • Awakened
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 18,378
  • The Bootysattva
    • Me!
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #329 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:06 »

After all, who really wants to live forever?
...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
Logged
They call me Mr. Madness.

Quote from: Polonius
Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.
MR ARCHIVE-FU MADNESS
Does anybody really know what time it is?
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

fayelovesbubbles

  • The German Chancellory building
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 482
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #330 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:25 »

Comic's up!

Looks like Gavia is applying Nanobot Healing Mojo to Sedna's right shoulder, so I'm assuming she lives.  She does look pretty out of it, though.  If Church isn't dead, he's going to need some help recovering, too.

And Alice still has lizard eyes, but they're back to blue.

Nah, Church can rot.
Logged
...and Bubbles loves Faye.

A Duck

  • Curry sauce
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 267
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #331 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:25 »

So it appears the praeses are actually alien. In fact, they act a lot like benevolent ME Reapers.

The "third party" theory some people were bouncing around here also seems to be true.

Now the question is: are they extraterrestrial aliens, or do they simply come from a dimension outside the "real" dimension?

After all, who really wants to live forever?
...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
I never understood that whole argument either. Immortality sounds like so much fun!

Logged

Castlerook

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,075
  • Captain Sarcastic
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #332 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:35 »

After all, who really wants to live forever?
...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.

Okay, lets just pick one person living forever and look at how it might go wrong.
- Everyone you know will eventually die, leaving you alone. This will colour your view of the world and the lives of those around you, after all, why form relationships when they're doomed to end with a headstone. Why love when you watch your partner age and die in the blink of a temporal eye? Or would you want to carry those memories with you forever?
- Immortality does not guarantee perfect health or eternal youth. Look at how the world's oldest people. Now imagine what you might become at 200, or 500 or 10000 years. Likewise there's no guarantee that you would completely immune to illness. Suppose you could not die from illness, but you still had to suffer it. What if you developed cancer and could never be rid of it? CJD? Parkinsons? Imagine an eternity where your body would not be under your control.
- There only so many places in the world. You can only see something new once. How often can one be struck with awe of the sunrise of the Serengeti before it becomes "Meh". After a couple of centuries, it just gets horribly monotonous and repetitive.
- You might see the fall of your civilisation. The ideas of your people, their hopes and aspirations will mean nothing in the flow of time. Their monuments, their art, literature and music will crumble to dust, leaving you as a living remnant. The last monument to a forgotten people.
- Would you want thousands of years of memories? There's a theory that why the human brain is far more powerful than most computers, there is a point where the brain cannot form those synapses for memories and that it actually can't keep memories in the long term. Suppose you have a child only to one day realise you can't exactly remember the colour of their hair? Or the fact that they died several thousand years ago?
- Let's say for a moment, that you can leave Earth and travel the galaxy and the universe. Even there in the openness of space, you will see the limits of mortality. Planets die. Suns will all go supernova eventually. Galaxies crash into each other. Eventually you will see the end of the universe. The Big Rip. Or maybe Heat Death. Possibly the Big Crunch. Who knows?
- Maybe your immorality will leave you immutable. Maybe you will see the Human species end and its descendants rise. You will be the one left behind. You will become as simple to them as Sahelanthropus was to us, an evolutionary remnant, left behind n the dust.

You think immortality would be amazing? Why? Because there will always be a tomorrow?
I think the limited time we have means that we must always look ahead because we can't guarantee we'll be here tomorrow. There are some fates worse than death, immortality is right up there.
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,972
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #333 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:37 »

Quote
It's looking like Pate's weapon, Church, will at some point revive which will again make Pate an active threat

Ahh. There have been hints Church is alive. "Imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm" is a standard that Pate meets if Church is going to regenerate. It's the Anglo-Saxon legal standard for killing in self-defense. So that could be an ethical justification.

"He needed killin' " is not.

Quote

    Alice More: Arrest him!
    More: Why, what has he done?
    Margaret More: He's bad!
    More: There is no law against that.
    Will Roper: There is! God's law!
    More: Then God can arrest him.
    Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
    More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
    Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
    More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
    More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake.
Logged
"Non-compliance is a social skill"
Quote from: an unnamed minister's sermon
In your face, darkness!  We are the light and we outnumber you!

JimC

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 522
  • Alice liked fluffy toys...
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #334 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:37 »

After all, who really wants to live forever?
...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
You will when you get older. Swift's Struldbrugs are a very real curse. Multiple lifetimes worth of joys also means multiple lifetimes worth of regrets.
« Last Edit: 12 Jul 2017, 12:49 by JimC »
Logged

brasca

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,316
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #335 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:39 »

It looks like Alice is starting to feel more like herself now.

I'm a little confused by how the Praeses factor into this.  I thought the space habitats were created by the Blink.  Now it seems like they wandered into Earth's war and decided to imitate its human lifeforms in the most idyllic setting.  If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?
Logged

RSDeuce

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #336 on: 12 Jul 2017, 11:45 »

I don't *know* that Jeph and Randall know each other, but they have linked to each other for pretty much forever, and if I were Jeph and had the option to run some sci-fi shit by XCKD I sure would.

Two comics in a row that seem particularly relevant. I really do think Randall is at a minimum watching with us, and possibly colored the world's physics back when Jeph was working on the concept.

https://xkcd.com/1862/
Logged

BenRG

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,888
  • Boldly Going From The Back Seat!
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #337 on: 12 Jul 2017, 12:09 »

I'm wondering if the Praeses are like the Horatio in Endless Space 2: Attempting to extrapolate the perfect life-form and/or society by sampling as many worlds as possible and gathering data on every possible response by each species to every possible scenario. From this huge database, they intend to synthesise the perfect being that can take its place at the top of the universe's evolutionary heap.

However, I suspect that they underestimated the hacking capabilities of Earth's surviving AIs and have instead been synthesising the human race v.2.0 as part of the AIs plan to fix the current situation. Maybe Ardent is the prototype for phase 2 - Upgrading the real world. He's also an attempt at social integration with the planet-bound humans (much less successful).
Logged
~~~~

They call me BenRG... But I don't know why!

Is it cold in here?

  • Administrator
  • Awakened
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,972
  • He/him/his pronouns
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #338 on: 12 Jul 2017, 12:25 »

>If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?

1. She's a soldier and likely predisposed to think of such things.
2. Laridia may be lying.
Logged
"Non-compliance is a social skill"
Quote from: an unnamed minister's sermon
In your face, darkness!  We are the light and we outnumber you!

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #339 on: 12 Jul 2017, 12:36 »

So it appears the praeses are actually alien. In fact, they act a lot like benevolent ME Reapers.

I was thinking pathogens.  We don't have enough information to know whether they're parasitic or symbiotic - maybe it differs depending on the system they colonize or infect, depending on your viewpoint.
Logged

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,414
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #340 on: 12 Jul 2017, 12:46 »

He's also an attempt at social integration with the planet-bound humans (much less successful).

Struck me that he was doing just fine with that (perhaps a little bit too fine) until he got reined in.
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

JimC

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 522
  • Alice liked fluffy toys...
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #341 on: 12 Jul 2017, 12:47 »

  If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?
You don't think you'd find a bunch of mysterious space aliens turning up, settling themselves in orbit and abducting a sizable percentage of earth's population mildly suspicious?
« Last Edit: 12 Jul 2017, 13:14 by JimC »
Logged

RSDeuce

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #342 on: 12 Jul 2017, 12:57 »

  If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?
You don't think you'd find a bunch of mysterious space aliens turning up, settling themselves in orbit and abducting a sizable perecntage of earth's population mildly suspicious?

Well, in that case I would say they have "Conquered", not so much are wanting to.

I am still a little perplexed by the core concept of Alice assuming that the Prases have an agenda (going way back in the comic.)

If they sent Ardent, why (at all) would they have sent him to her town. She has no capability of knowing what is going on even a few day's travel away. Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.

Unless there are lots of Ardent's on the planet (off camera) and Laridia (or the Prases she represents) is lying I don't see how they are anything except for being used here.
Logged

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #343 on: 12 Jul 2017, 13:42 »

He's also an attempt at social integration with the planet-bound humans (much less successful).

Struck me that he was doing just fine with that (perhaps a little bit too fine) until he got reined in.
That little blue horndog will be hitting on Laridia as soon as he's not scared fecesless.

Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.
It's not the ability they lacked, it's the inclination.  I don't doubt Sedna could whip together something a damn site more sophisticated than a spark gap transmitter and a crystal receiver, but the do have better wireless stuff than that.  (I wonder if that red button is going to re-enter the story?)
Logged

RSDeuce

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #344 on: 12 Jul 2017, 14:17 »

Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.
Quote
It's not the ability they lacked, it's the inclination.  I don't doubt Sedna could whip together something a damn site more sophisticated than a spark gap transmitter and a crystal receiver, but the do have better wireless stuff than that.  (I wonder if that red button is going to re-enter the story?)

That is a really good point. I just re-read everything and forgot about that button. Wonder if it works if she is in space?
« Last Edit: 12 Jul 2017, 14:33 by RSDeuce »
Logged

dexeron

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
    • My Twitter
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #345 on: 12 Jul 2017, 14:37 »

So many thoughts:

1. Look at Alice's hand over her eye.  I'm calling it now; she's TOTALLY popping a Pate eye in there right now to replace her old one.

2. So the Praeses are alien after all?  Why do I get a distinctly "Lavos" feeling from all of this?

3. So were the people in the... um... simulations real humans taken from the planet during the Blink (or perhaps their descendants) or are they completely "original" people created by the Praeses based on "data" from observing the planet below?

4. Did the arrival of the Praeses trigger the war, or did they arrive at/after its conclusion?  Did their arrival spark a philosophical debate as to existence itself that led to war over which direction humankind would go, or were they perceived as invaders (or WERE they invaders) who had to be fought? 

5. If Gavia and Ardent's simulation was based on a version of Earth without resource scarcity, are there other, darker, simulations, ones where everyone's lives are a living hell of endless, brutal Hobbseian conflict?

6. If the people in the simulations were "created" by the Praeses after all, how can we know that Gavia and Ardent even existed before they appeared in Alice's town?  How can we know that their memories are even real, and that either of them is any more than a few weeks old at this point?

7. Is this entire story itself taking place inside a Praeses simulation?

8. It's pretty clear that there's a third party at play here, and I'm guessing Alice has figured it out and is about to reveal who that is.
Logged

FunkyTuba

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,297
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #346 on: 12 Jul 2017, 15:00 »

No particular order/ sorry if I repeat someone's point:

Jeph and Randall do know each other, have for quite a while

Not all black holes are created equal, their mass can vary by many orders of magnitude. Sedna is probably quantum-entangled to a black hole with maybe 10 times the mass of our sun, Alice 103, Church 105. That would explain the varying strength. I would also guess that they were originally human, which would account for their varying capabilities. Sedna=tinkerer, Church=grunt, Alice=command

Alice had to kill Pate to de-link Church's need to serve a master. From the magma-encasement scene, it looks like Church was trying to indenture himself to Alice after whoever was previously holding his leash was defeated, which she was having none of. When he recovers from the arm-sword injury, rather than being unleashed, he will have a desperate need for a new leader and will choose the dominant party. He probably won't choose Alice again, even though she defeated his master(again). Maybe the Praeses? Maybe Sedna since she defeated him?

Re:windmills, Alice has had plenty of time to redevelop new technologies if she wanted to, not to mention quantum-entangling them from thin entropy. Or maybe Sedna dug them up.

QC is one of the simulations running in one of the Praeses. For that matter so are we.
« Last Edit: 12 Jul 2017, 18:00 by FunkyTuba »
Logged

jwhouk

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,521
  • The Valley of the Sun
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #347 on: 12 Jul 2017, 16:13 »

I would contend there is at least one fictional character who is in the midst of his own personal battle over whether or not he truly wishes to "live forever." Unfortunately, we have to wait until the Christmas Special to find out what happens.
Logged
"Character is what you are in the Dark." - D.L. Moody
There is no joke that can be made online without someone being offended by it.
Life's too short to be ashamed of how you were born.
8645

brasca

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,316
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #348 on: 12 Jul 2017, 16:20 »

  If that's the case then why did she suspect the Praeses were attempting to conquer Earth?
You don't think you'd find a bunch of mysterious space aliens turning up, settling themselves in orbit and abducting a sizable perecntage of earth's population mildly suspicious?

Well, in that case I would say they have "Conquered", not so much are wanting to.

I am still a little perplexed by the core concept of Alice assuming that the Prases have an agenda (going way back in the comic.)

If they sent Ardent, why (at all) would they have sent him to her town. She has no capability of knowing what is going on even a few day's travel away. Although Sedna and her know each other they clearly had no ability to communicate, even in an emergency. Even if every settlement has a super-soldier care-taker, they obviously have no ability to coordinate on a planetary scale.

Unless there are lots of Ardent's on the planet (off camera) and Laridia (or the Prases she represents) is lying I don't see how they are anything except for being used here.

I don't think I would call that abduction JimC since there's a lot we don't know about what happened during the Blink.  Considering that the Praeses took half of the survivors off a resource scarce planet meant there was more for the people that remained behind.  That probably helped a lot with the postwar stability and they were actually doing a favor for Alice. 

And that right there RSDeuce is why this whole scheme is so suspicious.  Out of all the places on Earth Ardent was sent to was the village protected by Alice.  Whoever did it could've sent him to Pate's city or the other side of the world.  By the time she figured out what was up it would be too late to stop it especially with Church guarding the operation.  I still think this whole scheme was to lure her away from Earth, but I don't know if the Praeses are behind it.  Laridia acknowledged the scarcity problem with Earth so it seems doubtful they would want to colonize it.  Life as the space dwellers know it is too good to venture out unless you're like Ardent.  Most people are probably like Gavia and want nothing to do with the planet they orbit so the Praeses would be hard pressed to find willing colonists.  Perhaps Alice's paranoia has convinced her that Earth is more desirable than it really is. 

After all, who really wants to live forever?
...me? Lots of people? I genuinely don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want to.
You will when you get older. Swift's Struldbrugs are a very real curse. Multiple lifetimes worth of joys also means multiple lifetimes worth of regrets.

That and if you have no other immortal friends it would get lonely very quickly.  Friendship wouldn't be a lasting thing and even if you could have children watching generations of offspring eventually die would be depressing too.  The only other person like Alice is Sedna and they don't get along too well.     
Logged

RSDeuce

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #349 on: 12 Jul 2017, 16:35 »

I don't think I would call that abduction JimC since there's a lot we don't know about what happened during the Blink.  Considering that the Praeses took half of the survivors off a resource scarce planet meant there was more for the people that remained behind.  That probably helped a lot with the postwar stability and they were actually doing a favor for Alice. 

And that right there RSDeuce is why this whole scheme is so suspicious.  Out of all the places on Earth Ardent was sent to was the village protected by Alice.  Whoever did it could've sent him to Pate's city or the other side of the world.  By the time she figured out what was up it would be too late to stop it especially with Church guarding the operation.  I still think this whole scheme was to lure her away from Earth, but I don't know if the Praeses are behind it.  Laridia acknowledged the scarcity problem with Earth so it seems doubtful they would want to colonize it.  Life as the space dwellers know it is too good to venture out unless you're like Ardent.  Most people are probably like Gavia and want nothing to do with the planet they orbit so the Praeses would be hard pressed to find willing colonists.  Perhaps Alice's paranoia has convinced her that Earth is more desirable than it really is. 

I actually really like the 'lure her from Earth" angle.

Sedna is "weak", and presumably the most common type.

Church is more powerful, but must 'serve' and can be controlled.

Either Alice severed a need to serve a person, or maybe she is simply the most free-willed or most dangerous of her kind and the (Praeses, baddies, whoever) wanted her off-planet, or maybe just out of town for a bit.

Maybe that particular village is under her protectorship not because she likes it there, but because there is something there (or in her protection) that is very, very important.

Why would that odd beast of a NightWalker happen to be in that particular forest all of the time? Earth is big. Wouldn't it have roamed?
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 13   Go Up