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What will Ardent's answer reveal?

Exactly what he said, a friend hacked the transporter console and he woke up on Earth.
It was actually someone no one ever heard of that promised this and Alice was wrong about the Praeses.
The Praeses are playing dumb and Laridia is just there to convince them they had nothing to do with Ardent going to Earth.
There's actually a rogue element among the Praeses in cahoots with a mysterious 3rd party.
Nothing.  Spookybot will wake up suddenly and realize this was all just a nightmare.

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Author Topic: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?  (Read 89264 times)

BenRG

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #550 on: 21 Jul 2017, 01:36 »

. In QC, it is always allowable (even necessary) to leave issues unaddressed because you want something you can write further strips about. However, in a distinct, self-contained story with a defined start and end, you can't do that. You have to be much clearer about developing plot, identifying stories and, if not wrapping everything up at least giving a clear pointer towards where things have gone

This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.

Perhaps but it is the form of storytelling that I like.

[Edit]
I hope that I'm not coming across as too negative and confrontational because that's not what I want. What I want to emphasise is that Alice Grove really has exposed what I regard as rough edges in Jeph's ability to write a long, integrated narrative. Too many things were given too much emphasis or not enough emphasis. Too many character arcs were brushed over and not enough attention given to significant elements (like Gavia having to function without nanotech or a villain group being introduced and then having no clear and unique role).

I'm not saying 'must do better', I'm saying 'can do better'. Alice Grove is not something to which I will be coming back to re-read (a must, IMO, my favourite books I will read tens of times). In the end, what it needed was more depth (perhaps being about 50% longer). Maybe a little more work on the end to emphasise why Alice chose perpetual exile and how she handled the way this was going to hurt those she cared about.

I may try to novelise it on Fanfiction.net or somewhere (Jeph, PM me if you don't want me to do this; you have the final and absolute veto over publication of 'my version') and modify it considerably to deal with those problems that I feel it has. The ending may even be considerably different, especially if I can't justify things like Alice running away as I get close to that point.
« Last Edit: 21 Jul 2017, 01:55 by BenRG »
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KevxD

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #551 on: 21 Jul 2017, 01:45 »

Such a disappointing ending. Really get the feeling Jeph just got fed up with it and wrapped things up ASAP. Such a strong contrast to the slow pace of things earlier in the comic is really jarring. I've no problem with leaving things open, but in this case you get the feeling it was an excuse to not flesh things out rather than provoke discussion.

Enjoyable comic, deserved a better ending.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #552 on: 21 Jul 2017, 01:55 »

This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.

Possibly, but I think that's overstating it; he and I are probably not alone in feeling that the main themes of a story should be brought to some point by the time of the ending, even if that ending leaves further explanation and development open-ended.

Still (@BenRG, who displays a talent at making story predictions), there is, as has already been said, lots of scope for fan-fiction, both to fill in the past and develop the future.  I don't personally feel any urge for that in this case, though.

Such a strong contrast to the slow pace of things earlier in the comic is really jarring.

The change from once a week to once a day made that more apparent than it needed to be.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #553 on: 21 Jul 2017, 02:18 »

Registered just to post my thoughts.

Iíve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, Iíve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.

I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writersí conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc arenít being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.

I think it just doesnít bear true that this was intentional from the beginning. The way in which the conclusion was presented, is nowhere near comparable to the way in which the introduction was presented.

I think this shows in so many aspects of the comicís presentation:

Simple page numbers: What Alice Grove has given us is roughly 220 pages, approx 160 beginning, 40 middle, and 20 end.

Locations: Where the intro gave us 5 or 6 different locations and a fleshed out world, the progression of the story from then on gave us an underground bunker, the void of space and the lobby of the Praeses.

Ideas: where a lot of the ideas were fleshed out, given cliffhangers, had surprises thrown into them or were otherwise developed, the narrative style changed and the last 20 pages just gave us what I felt were hasty explanations.

The laughing: is it just me or do multiple strips where you see nothing but a character laughing maniacally seem like filler at best. Bad writing at worst.

ÖI could go on but I donít want to write too much. You get the point.

And its either that bad writing is what this comes down to, or something worse.

I only really see two possible scenarios:

a) It was intended to be this way from the start. If thats the case, this was a badly planned, badly executed, badly written piece of work, for all the reasons mentioned above.

b) Something changed to make what was originally an open-ended, enjoyable piece of space comicry, become too much to want to deal with and AG was wrapped up in a rush.

I have to say, I strongly lean towards the latter.

- I donít feel that one would commence all these plot points, introduce all these ideas, locations and characters, with the intent to swiftly kill them all and wrap up in this way.
- I find the whole Patreon system and the kick-starters to fund books, the constant advertising etc quite unpleasant. I get the strong feeling AG was killed because it was not worth it in financial terms, and that everything is for profit with this guy.
- At the end of the day the story just didnít end up *being very good*! And given the quality of the ideas, concepts, art and writing at the beginning, the huge weighing of the content towards the start of the overall arc, and the speed/length of the conclusion, my inference is that it could have been much better, but was completely abandoned.

The final thing I donít understand is when JJ has been happy to keep updates every 2 weeks or more for years, why now it was an update every day. If this was intentional and he enjoyed writing it and was proud to finish, I think it would have still been better received if the updates came weekly.

If there had been more story to write and more plans to develop, to produce it weekly, fortnightly or ad hoc wouldnít have been an issue. Everything points to completely giving up on this project and I am really surprised there is a single person here who thinks this has been a satisfactory conclusion given the usual tendency to pick at even the smallest inconsistencies.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #554 on: 21 Jul 2017, 02:31 »

Maybe Jeph always did intend to leave things unsaid (after all, what reason do I have to doubt him on this?) but to have major plot devices like the Nightwalker unexplained is just inexcusable. It just makes me think that he decided to do it because it 'looked cool' but didn't think about how to integrate it into the story. Maybe others (professional writers who write novels for a living or who work for TV and movies) have done that too.

Tolkien did something of the sort with Tom Bombadil, who he explicitly said was a mystery, who didn't play any meaningful role in the plot, and whose absence wouldn't have impacted anything.  And he has taken heat over it ever since - to the point that many readers argue that Bombadil serves no purpose and really shouldn't be there, and most (all?) adaptations have dropped him completely.  Tolkien himself apparently couldn't explain why he felt Bombadil belonged there, just that he did.  But I think it is valid to argue that all Bombadil did was add 25 or 30 pages of atmosphere and padding to a book that needed more of neither.   The Nightwalker is arguably slightly different, since it did perform the significant act of stripping Gavia of her nanobots, but the act ended up temporary (and may or may not have really impacted the plot in the interim) and the reason for the action and its implications are never explained.

With regard to the overall story - as noted, Alice was basically an Indiana Jones character - not significantly affecting what (ultimately) will end up happening.  The only major thing that the entire action in the story after Ardent and Gavia arrived on Earth achieved was removing Church (and by her own choice Alice) from the field of play, and that seemed almost incidental.  The whole flight to space achieved only exposition (Church's demise(?) could have happened on Earth without really changing anything) - the readers (and the characters) learned some of what was going on, but it ultimately didn't really impact the outcome of the story.  I think Jeph created an interesting universe, stocked with a lot of characters, elements, and backstory that could have been much more deeply explored.  Whether because of lack/loss of interest on his part, lack of ideas of where those actually led, storytelling limitations, or possibly even financial reasons (the need to devote too much time to something with little return), Jeph didn't.  It's hard to buy his claim that all this was as he intended - that the dangling plot points, uninvestigated mysteries, and conclusion by wall of exposition and supposition was what he had planned from the start.  But it was his story, his comic, his choice to proceed and end as he did.  I personally think it could have been much more, but perhaps not in his hands, at least at his current level of storytelling skill?
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pwhodges

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #555 on: 21 Jul 2017, 03:20 »

- I find the whole Patreon system and the kick-starters to fund books, the constant advertising etc quite unpleasant.

It's a change from just buying or not buying something, I suppose - but for the artist it's a modern way to revive the old system of patronage (hence the name) that artists at all levels relied on for centuries as a means to put food in their mouths.

Quote
I get the strong feeling AG was killed because it was not worth it in financial terms, and that everything is for profit with this guy.

Of course it is - it's his job that he does to be able to live.  Do you not try to ensure that your job makes you enough money?  More famous artists than Jeph have dropped projects midway for financial reasons, and our regretting that is unlikely to change the pressures that caused his change of heart - which he is unlikely to explain to us in more detail.  The same applies if it was not a financial decision but an artistic one, or a life-style one.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #556 on: 21 Jul 2017, 03:39 »

Quote
It's a change from just buying or not buying something, I suppose - but for the artist it's a modern way to revive the old system of patronage (hence the name) that artists at all levels relied on for centuries as a means to put food in their mouths.

I understand what it does. I understand its a business model that takes the onus off the artist to finance self-publication by getting paid on promises. What I find unpleasant is the fact this takes the risk from the artist, who does (could/should) profit from a self-publicised venture, to the buyer. When the buyer(s) are then left without the promised product or quality, this is problematic.

Quote
Of course it is - it's his job that he does to be able to live.  Do you not try to ensure that your job makes you enough money? ETC ETC

I'm sorry, measuring my words has perhaps implied I don't understand this simple point. The fact of the matter is, we aren't being told AG finished due to financial pressures (which is understandable). We are being told its being completed to the standards and quality and remit that were always intended by the author. And I don't think the facts bear that out.

I guess I better make it clear to you that I do understand AG was produced for free.

This loops straight back to the first point. Had it been produced under a traditional basis, one might have reason for traditional complaint.

As it hasn't been, all we can do is speculate. But when AG is something provided by JJ to his Patreon, Kickstarter and QC audience, to abandon it like this removes a hell of a lot of confidence in the guy. I just find it a surprise (but maybe more people will speak up) that so many here are saying things along the lines of "I am satisfied with how AG turned out".

I'm not, at all. Under this model JJ puts forward one is expected to give him Patreon money, buy books and T-shirts, and fund via kickstarter his sub-par musical dalliances and anthology publications. I'm well aware of production and publishing costs for both printed and musical material and I find the sums he has spent or asked for on these projects crazy.

Most of this is expected to happen due to our affection for QC. On the basis of QC we are expected to put some level of trust in JJ as an artist, whether thats graphic, story or musical, and then fund his projects upfront. I like QC, I've bought a few bits, but its a habit, not something I hold in high regard.

AG was a departure from all of this and to me was the first thing JJ was doing that might hint at his potential. Perversely, had it been completed instead of abandoned, or even kept going under the same format as QC, with not so much happening but something habit-forming, it might have encouraged me to invest either emotionally or financially with JJ, but after this, I'm seeing everything he does in a very different light.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #557 on: 21 Jul 2017, 04:13 »

You're expressing a typical modern very highly consumer-centric view, in which the supplier is paid not for their efforts or the quality of their work, but for whether it happens to tickle the consumer's fancy.  Yes, that's part of the transaction between supplier and consumer - but it's only one part.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #558 on: 21 Jul 2017, 04:21 »

This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.

Possibly, but I think that's overstating it; he and I are probably not alone in feeling that the main themes of a story should be brought to some point by the time of the ending, even if that ending leaves further explanation and development open-ended.
It's the "can't" and the "have to" in BenRG's post I object to. There's a difference between saying "I prefer stories that follow a traditional narrative structure" and saying "you can't deviate from traditional storytelling techniques, it's the only way stories can work."
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Jeemy

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #559 on: 21 Jul 2017, 05:19 »

Quote
You're expressing a typical modern very highly consumer-centric view, in which the supplier is paid not for their efforts or the quality of their work, but for whether it happens to tickle the consumer's fancy.  Yes, that's part of the transaction between supplier and consumer - but it's only one part.

I don't think we'll reach an agreement on this. I don't think I am expressing a modern or unusual viewpoint. I have tried to put forward that I think categorically the AG situation is not one of personal preference as to how a piece of art is produced, but a provable situation in which an ongoing piece of work has been abandoned. If this were a painting he would have painted with great diligence the first 80% of the canvas and then emptied the yellow paint pot over the remaining 20% and walked out - and now you are telling me that I don't think its a good painting because I don't like the colour yellow.

One could argue that the only reason I, or those of my opinion, am in anything approaching the situation you outline, is because the artist has placed us there.

We are asked to fund an artist on the basis they'll produce work that is to our satisfaction. This may be on the basis of previous work they've done or because we like the premise of what they promise.

In that situation, if we don't like the previous work or premise, we are free not to invest in future work. I think it therefore behooves an artist operating this model to either show good quality in previous work, or provide an exciting premise that makes the risk worth taking.

I don't think the music has been good quality, I don't think QC is amazing enough to warrant indefinite trust in JJ and I felt AG was an exciting premise that might encourage patronage, investment whether emotional or financial from fans.

And now AG has been (in my view, provably) abandoned, yet we are being encouraged on the last page to continue to fund JJ, to watch with excitement for a new sub-project and that everything is intentional and to plan.

So no, I don't think I do view things in the way you state, and if I did, it wouldn't have any different end result.

If we were paying JJ by effort, he stopped putting effort into AG. If by work quality, I wouldn't be encouraged to pay for the future, to buy merch, to provide future patronage or funding on projects, given this poor quality effort. And on the model you state, no, it doesn't tickle my fancy to have something clearly abandoned.

I appreciate the difficulties these guys face. But I've lost count of how many projects I've expended money on for parts 1, 2 etc only to find them abandoned*. When something has a high production cost, thats understandable but it still encourages me to think that the traditional model, where the publisher foots the bill until the work is finished, and then the public are allowed to choose whether to invest, is my preferred model.

I could argue till the cows come home on your quoted point above. I think its ludicrous. To suggest that a consumer should pay a supplier for objectively good work, which has taken time and effort, when they don't like the end result is not a very modern consumer-centric view, its abusing a very basic right of the buyer.

In the traditional sense either the self-publisher foots the bill and then the public buy and the artist/self-publisher profits/loses, or the publishing house foots the bill for production and then takes a cut of the profits or all the losses, and they make this decision based on the quality of the artists' work.

We the readers/fans are being asked to stand in the place of the publishing house and on the basis of the quality of the artists' work, provide a part investment to the production bill, with no cut of the final profits, and in this case I think the quality of the artists' work has been revealed to be pretty haphazard and its reduced to zero the likelihood of me patronising JJ, QC or the associated products again.

*Its one of the great problems with episodic work. I'm fed up with good creative ideas being put into production and failing after a few episodes, yet we the consumer have been asked to pay on the basis of completion. Its completely put me off investing any goodwill in an episodic production again, and if AG had been put together in its entirety and released to review, I don't think the reviews would have encouraged me to go out and buy the graphic novel, or a publisher to invest in it.
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brasca

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #560 on: 21 Jul 2017, 06:25 »

I didn't know the last strip would be posted last night.  I was at the Watch Out for Snakes tour last night so it's just as well or I'd be on my phone missing the show. 

I will miss getting a Tumblr alert about this webcomic.  It was always a highlight. 

I'll miss my favorite, Gavia, but she's in a good place now.  She has her nanotech back.  It looks like her eyes are blue now and I preferred red, but that's just me.   

First and foremost I have no complaints about the story.  Yes, there were things that were left unexplained, but not to a frustrating degree like Lost.  As far as I'm concerned the Nightwalker was a leftover booby trap that targeted AIs employing nanotech and Gavia's overloaded it.

While I would've liked Alice to remain behind to keep humanity from destroying itself again I understand that she really couldn't handle going through all that again and probably fears she'd commit more atrocities just to prevent something terrible she thinks might happen.  And while I think she'd be the best person to lead because she really doesn't want the job humanity cannot rely on a god living among them to solve all their problems. 

Alice might disagree, but her actions were not for nothing because without a weapon like Church someone like Pate cannot subvert this new beginning to suit their own ambitions.  On that matter I'm going to presume he is dead or incapacitated with a bone shiv stuck in his skull so the Praeses probably jettisoned his body towards Mars or deep space where he could never harm anyone.  Sedna's arm didn't grow back and Alice's left eye is still red so some injuries may be impossible to recover from even for Maxwell demons. 

Arguing over the story has been fun too and will probably be something I'll continue doing when I return from work later. 

If you are reading this Jeph Jacques thank you once again for so much entertainment and I will gladly buy a copy if you publish it during the next Kickstarter. 
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #561 on: 21 Jul 2017, 08:33 »

This strikes me as a particularly narrow and restrictive view of storytelling.

Possibly, but I think that's overstating it; he and I are probably not alone in feeling that the main themes of a story should be brought to some point by the time of the ending, even if that ending leaves further explanation and development open-ended.
It's the "can't" and the "have to" in BenRG's post I object to. There's a difference between saying "I prefer stories that follow a traditional narrative structure" and saying "you can't deviate from traditional storytelling techniques, it's the only way stories can work."

Pretty much how I feel. A lot of the complaints I'm seeing here feel more like teddy has been thrown out of the pram, because the experiment in storytelling didn't follow a traditional style. Harsh? Maybe. Definitely true though. This was never going to be a traditional story, where the hero gets to live happily ever after and ride off into the sunset. Alice Grove was more like Shane, the job is over and the hero(ine) rides off, alone and dying in the saddle (or realising she's dying on the inside because she can no longer cope with the things she has done). There could be no other resolution and that became patently obvious when Alice broke down after nearly killing Ardent.

This story was never going to neatly tie up the questions it posed because each new answer raised more questions. And it reflects in the story, for all her strengths and all her abilities, Alice knew far less than she realised, a revelation that broke her and made her realised her time had long since passed.

So don't look for the answers that were never coming, but rather ask yourself what you can learn from Alice Grove; can you let go of the past? Can you survive realising you won't learn all the answers to what you were looking for? Ask yourselves, are you Ardent, Sedna and Gavia? Or are you Alice, Church and Pate?
« Last Edit: 21 Jul 2017, 18:44 by TheEvilDog »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #562 on: 21 Jul 2017, 08:48 »

Here's the thing: I'd be fine with the unanswered plot points, I'd be fine with unsolved mysteries and strange quirks that never got explained, I'd be fine with just about anything if the story structure actually held up.

Buuut it doesn't, not even the slightest. The pacing is just not good, and as Jeemy pointed out, the story spends about 3/4ths of its time on introduction and setup. Assuming Jeph is sticking to a standard three-act structure here:
The setup begins with Ardent coming down. That's the inciting incident. We then add Gavia. We get to know all three characters, learn about the world, and get to know the stakes, risk, and what could potentially go wrong.
Then, we start the second act when they leave the town, which happens a full halfway into the story, page-wise. This is when Alice first takes real steps to try and resolve the issue presented. We meet Sedna briefly, raise the stakes with the nanobird, get to a new town, and then reach a no-turning-back point when Pate comes in with Church.
Up until this point, the story has been paced very well for a story, assuming that the first act is something that we can gauge the rest of the story on. If the first act is a quarter of the main story, then we can assume a twelve chapter with all chapters being about equal length.

Instead, though, something goes wrong. We get a story that's only seven chapters long, with the first four chapters being 143 pages and the last three being only 77 pages. (That's a difference in about ten pages a chapter, btw.) The pacing completely falls apart. In the time that it took us to get to know the main characters and start to learn about the setting, we have the primary antagonist introduced, the stakes changed significantly, the goal of the story is reached, the antagonist is dealt with, and the problems that kicked off the story are all explained. 77 pages in, we're learning just what the Praeses are and why there are no AI.

And no, Jeph isn't just forgoing the traditional three-act structure. Or, if he is, he's not DOING anything with the subversion. It's not that you have to follow a certain story structure. It's that Jeph DID follow the structure, and did a very bad job of it.

The ending is horribly rushed. We didn't lose explanations because it was planned that way, we lost explanations because he wanted the story to be done and couldn't find a way to do that well without rushing things badly... So he just didn't do it well.

I would have been happier if he'd literally just started to explain things, then had Church murder everybody and end the story there. That would at least have been a twist I didn't see coming but that makes sense and is plausible.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #563 on: 21 Jul 2017, 10:22 »

Put me down in the same camp.  I'm fine with unanswered questions and mysteries that build the world, but the ending just felt extremely rushed, like it hit a turning point where Jeph just wanted it to be over for being over's sake.  I enjoyed the project on the whole but I'm still a bit surprised it ended this way.

However I think Sedna and her plant arm all awkwardly off to the side and then kind of finally having her reconciliation with Alice is pretty cute.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #564 on: 21 Jul 2017, 10:25 »

The whole thing was a side project, a protracted doodle on a napkin that you look at and say, "Y'know, that's not bad!" but isn't really ready for prime time.

Writing for a comic like Questionable Content is, no doubt, like writing scripts for a soap opera.  Let it go where in may - as long as you maintain continuity you'll be okay.  You can even get by with pulling an Evil Twin out of your nether regions once in a while.  Alice Grove was conventional SciFi novel writing, a format Jeph's not so familiar with, and it shows.

I suspect the same factors that led him to use a deus ex machina plot device in CQ were at work when he decided to wrap AG up, frayed ends and all.  He's made it clear all along that QC was the first priority.

What it does leave is a bunch of plot threads that can be picked up as sequels/prequels.  There's the backstory of Pate and Church, and Pateopolis could be the setting for all kinds of things.  The Nanobird.  Alice and Sedna.  The Lives and Times of ArcheophilesWildlife in the Post-Blink World.  And, of course, the Further Adventures of Sedna, Ardent, Gavia, and Laridia*.  Maybe Jeph will pick one or more of these up again - or not.  But they're there.

Disappointing, but not disgusting.  I'll still buy QC t-shirts from Jeph when they tickle my funnybone.

*She stayed on the surface with the others after traveling there in Alice's spiffy new Botanovalkyrie (which only Alice is seen boarding).  She, too, has been exposed to the "discontinuity" presented by Ardent and Gavia and cannot be safely reabsorbed into Cupressaceae.  OTOH, Cupressaceae and the other Praeses have an interest in what happens down here.  She's their agent in place.

« Last Edit: 21 Jul 2017, 11:05 by OldGoat »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #565 on: 21 Jul 2017, 10:38 »

I do think this ending is objectively bad. But I don't think it's because Jeph is a bad writer. He's just done with it. It was a side project he's been working on for nearly three years, and he has another side project he'd rather do instead now, so he decided to end his commitment to this one. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Nobody was paying for this comic, so it's not like he had any obligation to continue the story for three more years to resolve all the plot threads and give it a proper ending. To suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.
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Emperor Norton

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #566 on: 21 Jul 2017, 10:40 »

The thing is, it ends with no one accomplishing much of anything, and a whole lot of info dump at the end with a whole lot of telling and not a lot of showing.

The ending is rushed and feels wrong based on the pacing of the beginning. It is just bad writing. (not Jeph is a bad writer, the ending of AG is just bad writing. We aren't always on our A game).
« Last Edit: 21 Jul 2017, 10:55 by Emperor Norton »
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Jeemy

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #567 on: 21 Jul 2017, 11:22 »

Quote
To suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.

From Mr Jacque's Patreon, today:

Quote
This Patreon funded the creation of my stand-alone sci-fi comic Alice Grove, and will fund more projects in the future. Contributors will get special access to all sorts of neat features like early comic updates, bonus comics not available anywhere else, Q&As, and other fun stuff.

People were most definitely paying for this comic. No, maybe he isn't "obligated" to provide them with a "proper" ending or to "resolve the plot threads" but if you are paying somebody to create, I don't think its unreasonable to expect things not to be abandoned mid-way. Its certainly not unreasonable to withdraw future patronage based on being told quite literally: Alice Grove is finished, and is as intended or I will drop projects whenever I feel like them.

That makes me feel that anything else produced by JJ will be to the same unfathomable yardstick. I am sure there is a list of people a mile long ready to continue paying the man and trying to support him but I am not one.
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mil

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #568 on: 21 Jul 2017, 11:30 »

Yep, I'm another lurker registering to throw in my two cents. Alas, I agree with the posters expressing negative opinions of AG's ending. I loved the story's original pace and writing: gentle, languorous, almost whimsical at times. I became hugely invested in Alice, Ardent and Gavia's lives, the growing conflicts set up and the seemingly near-impossible quest to get into space and reach the Praeses. Sedna's appearance was perfectly timed and added another layer of conflict and backstory-based intrigue, and the Night Walker's shot at the moon was a wonderful mystery to leave hanging until later. We then met Ellie and her gang, and the antagonists came on the scene.

Then everything went wrong.

From that moment on, everything happened ridiculously quickly - the exploration of the bunker, the literally instant journey into space, a quick fight scene then a rapid denoument that came out of nowhere was more gigantic infodump than carefully plotted story. The protagonists didn't do anything to EARN the cruicial revelations that explained the story's plot; they just showed up somewhere and things were described to them. I didn't have a problem with Church's death the way it was presented, BTW; it made sense to me. And then BAM! the story's over, just like that.

So, in short, a wonderful setup ruined by a dreadfully hasty and lazy middle and end. I read the whole thing through again last night, which only made the problem more obvious. I understand that some things can be left open at a story's end, but some of the plot points left unexplained were unforgivable - why devote so much time to the Night Walker and his assault on the Moon, then leave it hanging? Simple bad writing, alas. Jeph clearly gave up on this story, or found he didn't know how to carry it on the way he started. A dreadful shame, given its initial promise.

The point that he wrote AG for free isn't exactly correct, either. -Some- people read this for free, sure, but others paid for the privilege of him writing AG via the Patreon, which allowed everyone to read it. That's fair enough, obviously, but I agree with the poster above who pointed out that AG's rushed ending doesn't represent good value for money to his loyal Patreons.

I don't mean to be overly negative - I still enjoyed AG despite the huge flaws, and I continue to enjoy QC. I just feel a little short-changed. I was hugely looking forward to JJ writing AG, and so I paid money to give him the chance to do so. What was originally a good investment now feels rather hollow, and not because thae story was badly written - quite the opposite! - but because it was ultimately rushed to an untimely conclusion then abandoned (I also get the impression that the >$1 rewards have fizzled out somewhat too, but perhaps I'm wrong on that) OK, maybe AG was supposed to play out this way all along, but if so, it shows JJ's long-form writing craft needs a huge amount of work. Perhaps I should see AG as a worthy but flawed experiment, and look forward to what he comes up with next, but right now I'm not sure it's worth it :(
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Castlerook

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #569 on: 21 Jul 2017, 11:33 »

Quote
To suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.

From Mr Jacque's Patreon, today:

Quote
This Patreon funded the creation of my stand-alone sci-fi comic Alice Grove, and will fund more projects in the future. Contributors will get special access to all sorts of neat features like early comic updates, bonus comics not available anywhere else, Q&As, and other fun stuff.

People were most definitely paying for this comic. No, maybe he isn't "obligated" to provide them with a "proper" ending or to "resolve the plot threads" but if you are paying somebody to create, I don't think its unreasonable to expect things not to be abandoned mid-way. Its certainly not unreasonable to withdraw future patronage based on being told quite literally: Alice Grove is finished, and is as intended or I will drop projects whenever I feel like them.

That makes me feel that anything else produced by JJ will be to the same unfathomable yardstick. I am sure there is a list of people a mile long ready to continue paying the man and trying to support him but I am not one.

Jeph is one of a handful of professional webcomic artists who earn their living through their comics. Meaning that much of his earnings come from what he makes through adverts or through conventions. Its not a very profitable business.

Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.

So Patreon helped fund Alice Grove. It also helped fund QC and DeathmÝle (even with the latter's kickstarter).

But you don't want to fund Jeph's Patreon anymore? That's fine, its your money, do what you want.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #570 on: 21 Jul 2017, 11:57 »

Quote
Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.

Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.

I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.

I would argue that every business owner in the creative or any other industry has to pay for their own flight & accomodation costs. Printing & shipping *should* be recouped by the sales made. There may be a shortfall between sales and costs, and that either gets funded by loans, profit from existing revenue streams, or funding whether that be Patreon, business loans or whatever. If that shortfall never reduces, its not a viable business.

I am sure 5,300 Patreons x between $1-5 per month does a pretty good job of covering flights to conventions.

A $200,000 kickstarter to print QC Vol 6 at $10 per person would be 20,000 copies. Printing costs on 20,000 160pp perfect bound books are under £20,000 GBP, so about $30,000 USD?

And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #571 on: 21 Jul 2017, 12:00 »

How many people still wonder, often actively, such things as the actual architects of the Giza Plateau and its sturdiest buildings,  who Jack the Ripper really was, what happened to Amelia Earhart, the identity of the Zodiac Killer, and now, what was/is the NightWalker and why did/does it shoot the moon with stolen nanotech thousands of years ago/from now.   

I might read through AG again at a pace that flows the same from start to end, as having a timing-lopsided experience is not conducive to much in the way of gauging a whole lot of things.     A curious interesting side-project patronized by some and not by others.   Hopefully, at least in aggregate, everyone got their money out of it.   Although hopefully everyone realizes that whenever you pay for art, you are taking a chance you'll like it enough to justify to yourself its cost.       

As far as this ending, it, and a lot of other story elements, could have gone a lot farther in a lot more detailed ways.  So yes it's somewhat incomplete.  Sure the story is kind of rambling, and the end just an end.   A slice of story at a given time, in such a long time as Alice Grove herself has been around, maybe pretty accurate as to how she might see things.   But the ending, yes.  A little terse.      However, it's likely not so bad to make just about anyone and everyone never want to see any of it again at all.   

Chopping off any second reading/watching/viewing by the bulk of an audience, that's a real danger sometimes; in one case, you end up in a logical but somewhat depressing state, not bad itself.  But combined with how seemingly random so much of the bulk of the material preceding it is, and how in so many ways is pointless, gives not much reason (short of a real love of the situations and actors and actresses) to watch again.    For example, I felt that way about Six Feet Under.  Worth watching once, but that's about it.     On the other side of that, you can get an ending that is so amateurish and sloppy, so horribly and numbingly terrible, that you have a reason to not watch again even the "good seasons" if out of nothing more than spite, at best.    For example, I felt that way about Dexter.   Then you've got material that might be worth watching again even if that's just to remind yourself on how good filmmakers and storytellers would never do things, because unless you're a megafanboi willing to forgive anything, there's nothing but a smidge or two of coolness (or acting) to redeem a work.    Inglourius Basterds, here's looking at you.    On another side of that, somebody who almost never gets to finish anything plot-wise because they've apparently not thought of any way to tie things up (which often turns out okay, for them, as the shows get canceled anyway because all the threads snap at once), doesn't understand the material they're working with (because they are not a fan of the original) and surprise their characters are shallow hollow representations of the original, the work having none of the benefits of the original, the time-travel elements a mess.   Hi, reboot of Star Trek (movies).   But not everyone likes scifi to begin with.  Still, you hire a person who doesn't like the original to reboot it?   Seems rather odd.   Yet there you are.

Although there are probably plenty of people who are big fans of all of those things in spite of everything else, and that's okay too.       And who's to say here that if there was a reprinting of this in physical form that there might not be some additions or subtractions, or that other things might come out of it.   Not everyone likes instrumental heavy metal experiments, or one person bands, but there's plenty of jazz (pop, rock, classical, opera, etc) out there and lots of multiple people bands if that's your thing.     Perhaps the next side project (musical or comic or otherwise) will be better, maybe it will be worse, some will fund it, some won't. 
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mil

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #572 on: 21 Jul 2017, 12:10 »

To highlight my suspicion that AG was ended abrubtly, I'd point out alicegrove.com/page/17, where JJ's text at the bottom states:

ďThat does it for chapter 6. Weíre getting towards the end, I think. Not sure how long itíll take but weíre getting there. Alice will be back in 2 weeks while I write the next stuff. Thank you for reading.Ē

I can't speak for anybody else, but when I read that I wasnít expecting the end to come 16 panels later, i.e after less than 10% of the total artwork/script content and considerably less than 1% of that ineffable concept ístory timeí.

Just one of the problems this rapid end brought writing-wise: in page 21, Pate ends up with Gaviaís energy blade in his heart. In page 18 Pate points out that killing him lets Church off his leash, and ďyouíve got the tiger by the tail and youíd better not ever let go.Ē Thatís a great moment of tension, but unfortunately it's utterly ruined by the fact that maybe 5 minutes of real time passes and no scene changes occur before Churchís leash is loosed.

In the interest of being constructive as well, I liked the fact that JJ left Alice's role in the pre-Blink war ambiguous. I also can't fully condemn her for the revelation that she caused most of the war's deaths; as she says in alicegrove.com/page/130, "I'm sorry Ardent. If I'm right, you're being used as a weapon. That's a terrible thing to be. I should know. I was a weapon once", then as good as bursts into tears. She clearly had the authority to make whatever bad decisions she made in the war of her own volition, but nevertheless, I feel like there was some bigger power there compelling her to do so in some way...
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Welu

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #573 on: 21 Jul 2017, 12:57 »

I thought Alice Grove was an interesting project. It's generally fun to see creators you like stretch their wings and enter new territory. I enjoyed getting to know these characters and seeing some of their stories. I'm unsure how I feel about the end.

I liked the last page. It felt appropriately bittersweet.
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mil

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #574 on: 21 Jul 2017, 13:56 »

Gifting Patreons a pdf of AG was a nice gesture. Thanks, JJ!

I liked the last page too, I have to say. The impact of Alice's departure on Ardent, Gavia and Sedna was very well done. Finishing up with the wind turbine prominent in the last frame called back to the start very nicely too.
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SmilingCat

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #575 on: 21 Jul 2017, 17:50 »

The meaningless thoughts of a psuedo-lurker:

I was left wanting more. And I hope we'll see more exploration of this particular universe in later stories.

The nightwalker bit had a sort of lovecraftian "things beyond our understanding doing things we can't comprehend", and in that context, I didn't feel bad about not having a payoff for that.

Still, left wanting more. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing is more a matter of personal preference. For me, it's a good thing.
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Tova

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #576 on: 21 Jul 2017, 17:54 »

Obviously, you either liked the story overall or you didn't. It's kind of interesting to explain what you found satisfying or unsatisfying, but really, there's no need to bend over backwards to justify why you did or didn't like a story. It's not as though anyone can claim that you're mistaken about what is obviously a 100% subjective viewpoint. And it is interesting to read about what aspects of the story you did or didn't like.

Personally, I, like many others, did find the ending a little rushed. However, overall, I found the story reasonably enjoyable, and didn't find that the rushed ending soured the story for me. But for me, the enjoyment stemmed from watching the emotional arc of the characters, not so much in knowing concrete explanations of this, that, or the other. Hitchcock, for example, was famous for throwing red herrings into the story to bamboozle the viewer that never got explained. I am fine with all that. Again, whether you found there were too many loose ends is subjective.

I also agree with Welu's well expressed post above. The final page was nicely bittersweet.

There is something about fandom which occasionally I find perplexing or annoying, I admit, and this is something I've tried to approach before. One aspect of it is that while generally people will say "I enjoyed that," or "I disliked that, it's not my cup of tea." But it seems to be the fandom's bailiwick to say, "That was right," or, "That was wrong." This is what tends to provoke argument. But hey, if you felt that the comic was badly written, then as I say, that's fair enough. But unless you are a well regarded author yourself, forgive me if I don't take too seriously your ministrations on the right and wrong ways to tell a story.

If you're complaining about funding though Patreon a project you didn't like, I would have to point out that this is the very nature of Patreon - it's in a way speculative, in that you hold the artist in some regard, and you want to encourage their endeavours, but there is no guarantee that the fruit of the artist's work will be to your liking, and of course you are at liberty to cease funding at any time you choose.

The PDF was a nice gesture, and I personally will continue to fund.

Still, left wanting more. Whether that's a good thing or bad thing is more a matter of personal preference. For me, it's a good thing.

Yes, it's better to leave your audience wanting more than to overstay your welcome. :)
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retrosteve

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #577 on: 21 Jul 2017, 18:06 »

Quote
To suggest that he was obligated to, that he shouldn't have dropped the project when he felt like it, would be pure entitlement.

From Mr Jacque's Patreon, today:

Quote
This Patreon funded the creation of my stand-alone sci-fi comic Alice Grove, and will fund more projects in the future. Contributors will get special access to all sorts of neat features like early comic updates, bonus comics not available anywhere else, Q&As, and other fun stuff.

People were most definitely paying for this comic. No, maybe he isn't "obligated" to provide them with a "proper" ending or to "resolve the plot threads" but if you are paying somebody to create, I don't think its unreasonable to expect things not to be abandoned mid-way. Its certainly not unreasonable to withdraw future patronage based on being told quite literally: Alice Grove is finished, and is as intended or I will drop projects whenever I feel like them.

That makes me feel that anything else produced by JJ will be to the same unfathomable yardstick. I am sure there is a list of people a mile long ready to continue paying the man and trying to support him but I am not one.

I think ultimately this is the measure of satisfaction. The number of people who remain with Jeph's Patreon or join it anew will be the review of how well Alice did. We can argue about it all day, and I think that's important to do, but the feelings of the readers will determine the continuing Patreon.

Jeph should by no means feel guilty about abandoning the story early. He did what he promised, to a level of quality that satisfied him. That's his part of the contract. Our part is to keep funding him for more, or not, as we each see fit.
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Case

Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #578 on: 21 Jul 2017, 20:15 »

Registered just to post my thoughts. Iíve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, Iíve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.

I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writersí conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc arenít being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.
Quote
Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.
Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.

I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.
And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.

Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?

Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
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Jeemy

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #579 on: 22 Jul 2017, 02:26 »

To Case (don't know how to quote people).

No, I didn't think AG sucked. The first 80% or so was great. It had loads of potential - the frustration is due to the fact I really feel its been abandoned, not finished as always intended, like we are being told.

I didn't think your discussion of AG sucked; I lurked here because I was always interested to see what others thought, but mainly you guys' thoughts were on the physics of the world and events, whereas I maybe took more of the history of the planet, characters and events as the interesting part of AG. So I lurked but never chimed in as I have nothing to say on the physics side. Sorry to have caused offence.

I don't know why you picked the 2nd or 3rd quotes as they don't seem to relate to anything you are saying to me.

I just found it interesting, and maybe did not phrase it right, that while for a random example, a hearty discussion was held on exactly how the super-soliders could propel themselves in a vacuum. Yet when things like Sedna suddenly being able to tear her arm off and kill Church, where he'd previously been too fast and strong, people suddenly started to justify why this, and many other things within the end, could/should fit within the world view, where I feel they've been shoehorned in to get rid of AG quickly and with little reverence.

Yes, I really felt I DID have to communicate the frustration with AG to you guys, whether you care for my opinion or not. I've been here since the beginning same as you, and who else am I gonna tell? I was very let down by it and as I say, I'm getting sick of the way a lot of content is abandoned mid-production when promises of whatever kind have been made and money has changed hands.

And no I likely won't stick around which I am sure doesn't bother you one way or the other. What would I stick around for? AG is finished, QC is a bit of fluff really, all good fun, but not a huge amount to discuss or think about. I really thought AG was going to create a good story, and instead its been abandoned, not finished. So I certainly won't be paying for anything else from this author again. And this is my issue with the Patreon system and the abandonment of AG; yes artists have the right to stop due to any kind of pressure, and yes you invest on the basis of potential not firm product, but we are told AG is finished and as it should be, and that doesn't bear out the quality and potential of the first 2 or so years, compared what we've been served over the last 2 weeks....

Thats all I really had to say. Sorry for any offence caused to anybody.
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USS Martenclaire

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #580 on: 22 Jul 2017, 03:18 »

It was a fun little universe and had giant birds in it.
« Last Edit: 22 Jul 2017, 06:16 by USS Martenclaire »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #581 on: 22 Jul 2017, 05:34 »

(don't know how to quote people).

Try pressing the button at the top of the post with "Quote" written on it.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #582 on: 22 Jul 2017, 08:30 »

It was a fun little universe and had giant birds in it.
And I don't recall seeing any dogs, cats, pigs, cows, or horses.  Some lizards, a nasty-ass bat thing, and some goddamn big birds used as draft animals, but none of the domestic critters we share our world with. 

(Waitaminute, there was that spooky-eyed deer thing early on, too.)
« Last Edit: 22 Jul 2017, 08:36 by OldGoat »
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mikmaxs

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #583 on: 22 Jul 2017, 10:36 »

Registered just to post my thoughts. Iíve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, Iíve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.

I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writersí conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc arenít being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.
Quote
Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.
Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.

I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.
And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.

Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?

Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
What do you mean, "We?" I've been here a while. I agree with the people who think that the ending was kind of terrible, especially when compared to the mostly-pretty-good earlier story.
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Case

Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #584 on: 22 Jul 2017, 11:18 »

Registered just to post my thoughts. Iíve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, Iíve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.

I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writersí conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc arenít being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.
Quote
Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.
Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.

I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.
And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.

Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?

Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
What do you mean, "We?" I've been here a while. I agree with the people who think that the ending was kind of terrible, especially when compared to the mostly-pretty-good earlier story.

Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)

Genuinely confused here: It looks a bit like your saying you're feeling excluded on account of being implicitly (but apparently erroneously) included?
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #585 on: 22 Jul 2017, 11:22 »

Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)
"pseudo-highbrow?"  There's noting pseudo about it, and it's High Unibrow, if you please.
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Case

Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #586 on: 22 Jul 2017, 11:31 »

Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)
"pseudo-highbrow?"  There's noting pseudo about it, and it's High Unibrow, if you please.



(My apologies to the resident ladynerds for the sexist erasure implicit in that pun joke meme thing - But ... it's Thufir Hawat!)
« Last Edit: 22 Jul 2017, 11:38 by Case »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #587 on: 22 Jul 2017, 11:33 »

I mean, we can go lowbrow if thats what people want.

Hey guys, did you see the...the...nope, can't do it. I need to go into full intellectual thinking mode and exercise my brain by sharing insight with the rest of the forum and hoping that other people agree, thus allowing a complex message to be disseminated to as much of an audience as quickly as possible.

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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #588 on: 22 Jul 2017, 12:32 »

Registered just to post my thoughts. Iíve lurked here for a long time as although I am interested to know what others think about AG, I always found the discussion a little too pseudo high-brow, Iíve never felt the point of this comic was to raise discussion about the exact physics of a situation, more the ethics.

I had to post my thoughts however as I am so surprised that a group of people who are accustomed to picking apart the holes in the viability of some of the writersí conceits in terms of physics, quantum physics, logistics etc arenít being more critical of this abrupt ending to AG.
Quote
Know what Patreon usually covers? Flight costs, printing costs, accommodation, shipping fees. Which would probably be considerably higher since Jeph moved to Canada a couple of years ago.
Keeping it brief as I have little more to say on the matter: Perhaps this seemingly patronising response is indicative of the fact that you think most people would not realize this.

I think most people would understand exactly this. I especially understand the costs involved for multiple reasons, I have decades of first-hand experience in many of the fields including printing, publishing, music recording and self-employment.
And you're right, I don't want to fund his Patreon anymore as I feel that this abrupt end to AG has not just been slightly odd, its been completely cut-and-run.

Sooooh ... basically you registered to tell us that AG sucks and that our discussion of AG sucks - mostly because we're having some nerdy fun with ze Deus-ex-entanglementz rather than appreciating the frustration you just had to communicate to us. That about the size of it?

Uhmmmmh, so ... you stayin' for lunch?
What do you mean, "We?" I've been here a while. I agree with the people who think that the ending was kind of terrible, especially when compared to the mostly-pretty-good earlier story.

Sooooooh - you also have a problem with the "pseudo-highbrow discussions" hereabouts? (cf. the quote right at the top of your post ...)

Genuinely confused here: It looks a bit like your saying you're feeling excluded on account of being implicitly (but apparently erroneously) included?
Your response to Jeemy painted with a pretty broad brush. If you were solely responding to his comment about high-brow discussion, I'd have stayed out of it, but you didn't. You included many quotes covering a wide variety of topics, most of which were not a comment about the discussion here being a high-brow physics debate.

Your post turned it into an 'us-vs-them' argument. "We people who have been on the forum for a while are in the right, and you newcomers disagreeing with us are not only wrong, but shouldn't be here because the things you want to discuss don't fit with what we do here."

That's how it came off to me. I was pitching my support behind the new guy because I agree with him on most points.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #589 on: 22 Jul 2017, 12:53 »

Global Moderator Comment This thread is for views on Alice Grove, not on each other. It is an established principle in this forum that we accept, welcome, and respect a wide range of opinions in the hope of enriching our own views rather than drowning ourselves in confirmation bias.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #590 on: 22 Jul 2017, 15:22 »

To be honest, most, if not all of Jeemy's posts have come off as dismissive of the other points of view, or outright rude.

There's no "us versus them" on this forum. You have discussions that can sometimes run a little hotter than normal, but often the tone is considerate because you do want to foster an environment where people can share their viewpoints. So while there might be discussions that get a little heated, the views of others are considered, taken on board and hopefully something is learned by both parties.

That's not going to happen when someone comes in and just wants to crap over everything. There's no chance of discussion, nothing to be learned because they cannot allow themselves to be open to the idea that there are merits to the other side of the discussion. That kind of mentality isn't healthy and is not conducive to healthy debate.
Maybe it's just me, but I didn't see Jeemy's posts as 'Just wanting to crap over everything'. He was a bit smug at the beginning, yes, but then he posted opinions with reasonable, if rather long-form explanations for why and arguments backing up his opinion. I agree with most of what he had to say. He explained why he thought the ending was rushed, and why he felt like the Patreon system was bad for storytelling since it created an incentive to drop a story that wasn't providing immediate financial gains, at the cost of that story. (Whether or not this is actually why Jeph rushed the ending is a debate we can't answer, but it's an interesting idea that has some weight to it.)
There was then a reasonable debate about the merits of this funding, in which many good points were raised. He didn't dismiss other points of view, he provided lengthy arguments about why he disagreed. The only thing dismissive I saw in this part of the conversation was when Jeemy was accused of simply being salty for not getting something that tickled his fancy.

(It's worth pointing out that Jeemy's argument style and my own are quite similar: I also tend to favor overly long statements that cite sources and generally explain in too much detail what I'm trying to say. That may be why I saw fit to defend him.)

Jeemy didn't 'Crap on everything'. He pointed out what he liked - Namely, the setup and first 80% or so of the story and the ethical questions raised by various events. He simply has a very strong disagreement with the other more recent aspects (and the money-related implications with those aspects,) and was explaining thoroughly why he had those opinions and why he didn't agree with the people who didn't share those opinions. He was a little blunt and perhaps not entirely tactful, but neither were many of the responses to what he had to say.



After reading all this and interpreting what I saw in the way I explained above, I disagreed with :
1, The assertions both that Jeemy was just trying to say that 'our discussion sucks and Alice Grove sucks',
2, The implication that because Jeemy had signed up to join the discourse at this stage that he shouldn't have bothered sharing his opinions, and
3, The further implication that the ideas he was sharing were something that he was bringing into the discussion that hadn't previously existed and that without him the thread was just people having fun with deus-ex plot points, and nobody else shared Jeemy's frustrations.

With all that in mind, I posted in Jeemy's defense. I tried to keep it brief, but apparently my reasoning and point was lost, so now I'm reverting to my style of long-winded overexplanation so that my point can't possibly be lost.
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Case

Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #591 on: 22 Jul 2017, 15:56 »

Your response to Jeemy painted with a pretty broad brush. If you were solely responding to his comment about high-brow discussion, I'd have stayed out of it, but you didn't. You included many quotes covering a wide variety of topics, most of which were not a comment about the discussion here being a high-brow physics debate.

Your post turned it into an 'us-vs-them' argument. "We people who have been on the forum for a while are in the right, and you newcomers disagreeing with us are not only wrong, but shouldn't be here because the things you want to discuss don't fit with what we do here."

What the ... ?

I don't have the slightest idea how you could possibly arrive at that from what I actually posted, but that's your beer, not mine. What is important to me is that I'd appreciate your stopping to put words in my mouth.

After reading all this and interpreting what I saw in the way I explained above, I disagreed with :
1, The assertions both that Jeemy was just trying to say that 'our discussion sucks and Alice Grove sucks',
2, The implication that because Jeemy had signed up to join the discourse at this stage that he shouldn't have bothered sharing his opinions, and
3, The further implication that the ideas he was sharing were something that he was bringing into the discussion that hadn't previously existed and that without him the thread was just people having fun with deus-ex plot points, and nobody else shared Jeemy's frustrations.

With all that in mind, I posted in Jeemy's defense. I tried to keep it brief, but apparently my reasoning and point was lost, so now I'm reverting to my style of long-winded overexplanation so that my point can't possibly be lost.

I have the strong suspicion that was also an allusion to my post - see the quasi-citation in pt. 1 and the deus-ex reference in pt.3 - If so, same salad applies here: Your interpretations/impressions and my 'assertions' are very different things, and I'd appreciate your stopping to pretend they are the same.

P.S.: You can kinda tell the difference by the distinct absence of any assertion from my post above.
« Last Edit: 22 Jul 2017, 16:07 by Case »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #592 on: 22 Jul 2017, 17:33 »

I am not a mod, but would like politely to request that this line of conversation finish three posts ago, thanks.

Edit: Well, four posts ago, now that I've posted.  :roll:
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #593 on: 22 Jul 2017, 18:46 »

Global Moderator Comment I am a mod and will lock this thread if present trends continue.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #594 on: 22 Jul 2017, 19:35 »

Hey, we've never had an AG thread get locked before!

 :roll:

Bottom line is that the ending kinda left me - and it sounds like a lot of others - rather dissatisfied.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #595 on: 22 Jul 2017, 21:27 »

Sadly I am also disappointed with the outcome.

Enter now the realm of disjointed ramblings if you dare.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #596 on: 23 Jul 2017, 03:41 »

Just for the record:

I liked AG and always saw it as a side project by Jeph. A little something he took interest in for a while. And now that while is over.
I too think, that the end feels rushed and I am a bit disappointed. But this is more a thing of the speed of storytelling in the end than of the end itself. The last chapter raised a lot of questions I would love to have answered. This would have been enough stuff for several chapters to fill with. But Jeph wanted to get to the end quickly and we have to accept the artists decision in this case.

And apart from the rushed storytelling and the open questions, I have so say that the end is pretty satisfying in my oppinion. I have encountered worse in science-fiction. For example the end of "Against A Dark Background" by Ian M. Banks.  :wink:
I am thankful, that Jeph took his time to bring AG to a decent end. If he had carried on, he could have reached a point where he complete loses interest and never finishes the story instead. But he didnīt and I have to express my gratitude for that.

Alice Grove is finished and I liked it. The story, the artwork and the characters (especially Sedna). The end feels rushed, but I can live with that.
Thanks Jeph, for sharing your little story with us.

Already curious for your next project:
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« Last Edit: 23 Jul 2017, 03:56 by Timemaster »
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #597 on: 23 Jul 2017, 06:46 »

Yep, ending was crap.  Damn shame.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #598 on: 23 Jul 2017, 10:13 »


I am a mod and will lock this thread if present trends continue.


And then AG will be truly over and soon forgotten.
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Re: Alice Grove MCDLT - THE END...?
« Reply #599 on: 23 Jul 2017, 10:16 »

Yep, ending was crap.  Damn shame.

Can't be more concise than that.

There's a lot of room for sequel or at least stories in the same 'verse. For example, there's apparently a crater full of stripped and stolen nanotech on the Moon. That can't be good. But Jeph hasn't given any indication he's going to turn any of those dangling threads into stories.  A pity.
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