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Author Topic: ai ages  (Read 5322 times)

miados

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ai ages
« on: 16 Aug 2017, 22:00 »

I just notice doing a reread that right before momo gets her full body chasis that she actually tells us her age, allbiet in seconds (ill link below) 85147200 to be exact. it lets us know that she is 2.7 years old. I know she isn't young to us but it got me to thinking with how things are going with winslow how old are the pcs we have gotten to know. To me winslow always felt more like a kid and momo as a young to middle teenager for some reason while pintsize seemed like a highschool/college age frat boy.

Do we actually know more of their ages? I dunno just something i noticed that we have a form of verifying how old they can be. Also how they mature etc compared to humans. do you think the body they are in has an impact? i know the experiences they have would. i mean winslow didn't have much in his life. heck he couldnt even stand up without help if he fell over, momo had a wear eel thing, we know may has been in jail for a while and bubbles had military service and pintsize well...... anyway for some reason seeing that made me wonder age vs maturity like in one justice league episode where they have a similar discussion about actual age versus maturity and mental age.

any thoughts?

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1995
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BenRG

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #1 on: 17 Aug 2017, 04:02 »

There is a disconnect between age and mental/emotional maturity. In the strip where May is looking for a job, one of the application forms specifies an AI-specific mental maturity measure (something about what level of a Turing test they could past). So, yeah, chronological age probably has very little to do with an AI's actual perceptible ability to 'do adult'.

Of course, run time will almost certainly affect developmental levels but it probably is a very compressed scale compared to humans. It also is not always at the same rate. I suspect that Pintsize and Bubbles are probably around the same age; now compare their levels of mental and emotional maturity. It's kind of weird how much they are like humans: Just being the same age does not guarantee whether they've grown up!

Another thought: Station once told Marten that teenage Hannelore had named some of the Ellicott-Chatham AIs involved in the space program (and that she wasn't that creative when it came to the names). This means that we can start establishing a baseline of maximum ages. IMO, I don't think any of the AIs are older than six to ten years and most of the AIs we are familiar with are probably no older than three years.
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Cornelius

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #2 on: 17 Aug 2017, 04:48 »

Of course, run time will almost certainly affect developmental levels but it probably is a very compressed scale compared to humans. It also is not always at the same rate. I suspect that Pintsize and Bubbles are probably around the same age; now compare their levels of mental and emotional maturity. It's kind of weird how much they are like humans: Just being the same age does not guarantee whether they've grown up!

I'm not sure run time is a very good indication. I should think it very much depends on the efficiency, and the kind, of processes they have running. If an AI with limited resources is investing most of its resources to just maintaining its conscience, that doesn't seem to leave much room for improvement.

I thought you were making a very good point of Pintsize and Bubbles being the same age, as Bubbles did claim that the program that produced her chassis ran parallel to the one that produced Pintsize's. There's two problems, though; being that Pintsize's current chassis is a replacement of his original one, and that Bubbles volunteered to serve, implying that she had been conscious before that.

An important point might be that the first true AI, according to the book Momo was reading on the subject, asked for civic rights, and perhaps a glass of champagne, on the very evening its consciousness was confirmed. That seems to indicate a high level of maturity out of the box, so to speak. Of course, we cannot know how, exactly, that AI had been developed, and where the threshold for the researchers to claim consciousness lay.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #3 on: 17 Aug 2017, 09:28 »

On top of the variables already mentioned it seems likely that there's already some difference in maturity levels when they leave the VR crčche.
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miados

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #4 on: 17 Aug 2017, 12:09 »

I think this is mostly something for companion ai types. I am unsure if you will see a large amount of change in say a toaster ai who is happy being one and wants to stay one forever. At least in the sense where they need to worry about social and economic things.
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flondrix

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #5 on: 17 Aug 2017, 12:49 »

Another thought: Station once told Marten that teenage Hannelore had named some of the Ellicott-Chatham AIs involved in the space program (and that she wasn't that creative when it came to the names). This means that we can start establishing a baseline of maximum ages. IMO, I don't think any of the AIs are older than six to ten years and most of the AIs we are familiar with are probably no older than three years.

Hannelore has had her own apartment since the very beginning of the strip, and a few years have to have elapsed in strip time sine then.  She must be in her mid-twenties at the very minimum.  That makes Station at least 10 years old; hpwever, I would not be surprised if he were among the very first AIs.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #6 on: 17 Aug 2017, 12:55 »

In context it sounded like Station was included when Eminence Grise talked about "elders".
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Cornelius

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #7 on: 18 Aug 2017, 00:58 »

I should think so too.

At any rate, within the comic's time, there has been a very swift revolution with AI. Within the timeframe of the comic, we have seen them gain civic rights, and anthropoform chassis have gone from uncanny valley to fairly commonplace. Though, to be honest, I seem to remember an anthropoform AI at the placement office in the flashback when Marten was paired with Pintsize.

At the same time, maturity as a function of their function seems a difficult call. How much maturity does an assembly arm, by that reasoning need? And yet... Compare also the military installations Pintsize has managed to rile up.

As such, it doesn't seem impossible that specialised AI, like Station and Ship, have evolved before freestanding AI, as a natural evolution of what were very complex self-adjusting systems.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #8 on: 18 Aug 2017, 07:11 »

I am unsure if you will see a large amount of change in say a toaster ai who is happy being one and wants to stay one forever.

You might think Trashbot has a crappy job, but he really likes it. He likes it a disturbing amount, actually.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #9 on: 18 Aug 2017, 13:59 »

As an aside, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of my appliances having a consciousness... My toaster spends altogether too much time in the back of the cupboard.

Another question is to what degree hardware determines the possible level of maturity. To what degree would that limit, say, a toaster? Which also begs the question: what are the criteria for a system to be recognised as an independent, conscious AI? That is something the levels of Turing test passed might indicate.

Another interesting question, but perhaps for a different thread, would be if the degree of maturity/human equivalent age, plays a role in the civic duties/rights they can exercise. Somewhat like how legislation protects minors (and equivalent) in our world.

For now, we seem to be focusing on very human-like AI's - quite naturally, as they are most present in the comic - however, would the consciousness of Trashbot, or a toasterbot work in a similar way? Someone in the comic already mentioned that the very large AI's just treat human consciousness as just another subroutine. I can imagine it can be very difficult to consider the maturity / human equivalent age of what is essentially an alien mind.
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miados

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #10 on: 18 Aug 2017, 14:12 »

As an aside, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of my appliances having a consciousness... My toaster spends altogether too much time in the back of the cupboard.

Another question is to what degree hardware determines the possible level of maturity. To what degree would that limit, say, a toaster? Which also begs the question: what are the criteria for a system to be recognised as an independent, conscious AI? That is something the levels of Turing test passed might indicate.

Another interesting question, but perhaps for a different thread, would be if the degree of maturity/human equivalent age, plays a role in the civic duties/rights they can exercise. Somewhat like how legislation protects minors (and equivalent) in our world.

For now, we seem to be focusing on very human-like AI's - quite naturally, as they are most present in the comic - however, would the consciousness of Trashbot, or a toasterbot work in a similar way? Someone in the comic already mentioned that the very large AI's just treat human consciousness as just another subroutine. I can imagine it can be very difficult to consider the maturity / human equivalent age of what is essentially an alien mind.

I forget the name he had but that one robot arm ai that took over for corpse witch seemed pretty mature to me despite the fact he didn't have a full body to work with by our own standards at least. Sort of like how we have most alience in the likes of star trek and wars look mostly humanoid (not all but most) as opposed to a book series i read when younger where the aliens were very unhumanoid. (animorphs)

i keep thinking about how then one young justice cartoon they are talking about superboy with his body being less than five years but his mind closer to 20 how they should determine criteria. along with shazam who had the wisdom of soloman and when not in that form just a normal kid.

Somehow i feel that each ai has a different rate of maturity. like even if the same age for some reason i see winslow as maybe 9 or 10. momo as closer to 18 and pintsize as a mix between a young teen you hear on call of duty or a college frat boy stereotype maturity wise.
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Cornelius

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #11 on: 18 Aug 2017, 15:21 »

Merlin is also a good example of a wise and mature infant; there is a legend, how he was literally the Devil's own son, but was baptized just in time. Now, having a son with the Devil, did not go over well with the authorities. And So, his mother was put on trial. Now, even back then, they're were procedures to be observed, and she was allowed an attorney. Cue Merlin, at the ripe and mature age of seven days, pleading before a court, in the language of the learned, and actually managing her acquittal.

End of the off topic but. My apologies, I can't help myself whenever that story is in the slightest relevant.

I really suppose that in universe, there is some kind of standardised testing.

Jeremy was the one I was referring to earlier. Of course, an assembly arm is a versatile piece of equipment, and would need more intelligence and maturity than, say, a toaster. However, an issue toaster might really screw up your mornings.

Personally, I think of Winslow as 13-ish. Can't rationalise it, but it seems to fit, for now.

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miados

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #12 on: 18 Aug 2017, 16:17 »

Merlin is also a good example of a wise and mature infant; there is a legend, how he was literally the Devil's own son, but was baptized just in time. Now, having a son with the Devil, did not go over well with the authorities. And So, his mother was put on trial. Now, even back then, they're were procedures to be observed, and she was allowed an attorney. Cue Merlin, at the ripe and mature age of seven days, pleading before a court, in the language of the learned, and actually managing her acquittal.

End of the off topic but. My apologies, I can't help myself whenever that story is in the slightest relevant.

I really suppose that in universe, there is some kind of standardised testing.

Jeremy was the one I was referring to earlier. Of course, an assembly arm is a versatile piece of equipment, and would need more intelligence and maturity than, say, a toaster. However, an issue toaster might really screw up your mornings.

Personally, I think of Winslow as 13-ish. Can't rationalise it, but it seems to fit, for now.
well without a way to quantify maturity since even among people of the same age there is a lot of fluctionation. i just picture somewhere in the highest preteen ages for winslow. not sure why but i just feel it fits. sometimes thats all you can say. it just feels right.
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Gyrre

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #13 on: 22 Aug 2017, 17:32 »

It would seem that nobody has addressed 'clothed cognition' yet. It'd be interesting to learn just how much the appearance of an AI's chassis might affect their self presentation.

Here's a vid:

Imagine Pintsize getting a chassis that looks like Uryū Ishida from Bleach in his school uniform.. Just how much more serious might he act? Or would he simply seem to be acting even more outlandishly when going about his usual antics?
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miados

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Re: ai ages
« Reply #14 on: 22 Aug 2017, 22:55 »

It would seem that nobody has addressed 'clothed cognition' yet. It'd be interesting to learn just how much the appearance of an AI's chassis might affect their self presentation.

Here's a vid:

Imagine Pintsize getting a chassis that looks like Uryū Ishida from Bleach in his school uniform.. Just how much more serious might he act? Or would he simply seem to be acting even more outlandishly when going about his usual antics?

not the type of games they meant but in dungeons and dragons i was a teifling wizard with armour typically equal to or just one below our tanks whose roll was the tank, but i had ways to boost stats and stuff and often was the tank despite wearing basic leather and only holding a staff. it was fun using this little stereotypical wizard figure as an off tank doing flame blasts and stuff as she would fight and it worked surprisingly well. although i got us kicked out of a town once when i forgot about my familiar. i was riding it because i had a ritual that made it horse size and was riding it into town. problem was teifling riding a horse sized dismembered hand wasn't an appealing sight to the town.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #15 on: 29 Aug 2017, 06:42 »

Pintisze keeps costumes on hand and seems to get into character when he puts them on (how does he do that anyway?)
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #16 on: 29 Aug 2017, 23:41 »

Pintisze keeps costumes on hand and seems to get into character when he puts them on (how does he do that anyway?)

Remember the Regional Settings stint where Pintsize was very stereotypically British?

I do wonder sometimes if with the AI stuff now, Jeph wishes he could retcon some of the older comics so there's a bit more consistency.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #17 on: 30 Aug 2017, 01:12 »

Personally, I'm wondering if that was in fact his regional settings, or whether he was just using that as an excuse.
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #18 on: 30 Aug 2017, 16:35 »

Personally, I'm wondering if that was in fact his regional settings, or whether he was just using that as an excuse.

I would assume that it was both.

Some things might be straight up programmed as things for that area that are viewed as important being things pushed into the system for the early points of the switch to fit traditional norms for the area (greetings, some traditions such as tea times and the like)) With the assumption that the regional settings are normally only triggered at initial bootup in the body. Some might be things that are hardcoded such as accents.

Then you have the personality having other things to do with it on a baseline level combined with later superceding other things as they develop.

I really wouldn't want to deal with the mayhem of some origin settings...
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Re: ai ages
« Reply #19 on: 30 Aug 2017, 20:48 »

Personally, I'm wondering if that was in fact his regional settings, or whether he was just using that as an excuse.

I would assume that it was both.

Some things might be straight up programmed as things for that area that are viewed as important being things pushed into the system for the early points of the switch to fit traditional norms for the area (greetings, some traditions such as tea times and the like)) With the assumption that the regional settings are normally only triggered at initial bootup in the body. Some might be things that are hardcoded such as accents.

Then you have the personality having other things to do with it on a baseline level combined with later superceding other things as they develop.

I really wouldn't want to deal with the mayhem of some origin settings...

Here's hoping racism/xenophobia are never included as "traditions".
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