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Poll

Who is going to put their foot in it this week?

Faye
- 6 (10.7%)
Bubbles
- 1 (1.8%)
Amanda
- 11 (19.6%)
Evie
- 13 (23.2%)
Someone else (Please list)
- 1 (1.8%)
All of the above!
- 24 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 52


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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)  (Read 44380 times)

OldGoat

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #200 on: 19 Jan 2018, 09:46 »

Dear Robo-Willie consultation fee debaters;

Far, far to much is being projected onto just a couple of snap-shot time slices such that you are picking the fruit long before it is ripe then complaining about how bitter it is.  Please give Cheph Jeph a chance to finish the arc before passing final judgement upon Faye for a single occurrence.  I believe we are to be served an entertaining Faye Guilt Stew in the near future.

Sincerely,
Geriatric Caprinea ("Old Goat")
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JimC

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #201 on: 19 Jan 2018, 10:26 »

One of the more interesting aspects to the £100 dollar consutation is that melon thought that  75 dollars was a lot for a new butt.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #202 on: 19 Jan 2018, 11:20 »

Speaking of offensive comparisons to dogs...

Adoption fees for a pet can be fairly high.  IIRC I paid an 80 dollar fee to adopt my cat.  From Melon's perspective, that's exactly what she's done: she's adopted a new pet.  Faye told her what it was and how to care for it, therefore she's the one who gets the adoption fee.  Still wouldn't really justify Faye *taking* the money, I suppose.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #203 on: 19 Jan 2018, 11:30 »

Those eyes in the second last panel are terrifying.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #204 on: 19 Jan 2018, 12:25 »

There is an alternative that people have not considered.

What if Melon wanted to give the business money?

Considering that her friend kicked down UR's door during their last visit, one might regard that as 'making amends' as much as 'charity'?

(Otoh, we're talking about Melon here, so ... yes)


I don't care if it's based on nothing but supposition - I will die on this Hill, because ...

Hope that comes out the right way: You, my friend, are a veritable one-man-one-hill occupation force!  :-D
« Last Edit: 19 Jan 2018, 12:31 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #205 on: 19 Jan 2018, 12:26 »


Part of my reaction to her is probably partly because of dealing with women like her in my women's studies courses when I was in college. Graduate students can be the absolute worst.

Yeah, I got that distinct impression that your impression of Evie has been somewhat (heavily maybe?) colored by your own negative experiences in college. Mostly because you seem to be transferring negative personality traits of those you encountered onto a cartoon character we know virtually nothing about. Some of your suppositions "I'm sure Evie lives in an echo chamber full of academics who think she has a brilliant mind" is not really based on anything.
If anything, PhD students are never treated as brilliant in academia, even when they may be. If anything, PhD students are reminded continually that they know basically nothing. I will say though that I am only speaking of those in STEM, I can't speak for those in humanities and social studies.

I agree though that graduate students can be the worst though...

Oh by the way, please note that I respect your opinion and am in no means trying to harp on you, it's mostly since your opinion on Evie seems to be by far the most negative here, and based on what we know atm I am surprised how anyone could have any particularly strong opinion yet about who she is. A strong opinion on how she interacted with Bubbles, sure, but sweeping conclusion on her personality/character or even upbringing (I think Morituri said 'wallowing in privilige', wonder where that came from??) are rather premature.

I will stop about this now.
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dutchrvl

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #206 on: 19 Jan 2018, 12:35 »

Bubbles herself says she doesn't know what her feelings toward Faye are. Love is a very real possibility, but so is a crush or an unusually tender friendship.

Yeah, I am also wondering what kind of love there is, even from Bubbles' side.
I agree that she clearly loves Faye, but you're right, she doesn't even know herself what exactly she feels.

Is it a real romantic interest? A very strong friendship-kind of love? The rather common crushing on your 'rescuer/savior'?

I'm leaning towards the first or last considering her "you're beautiful" comment, but who knows?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #207 on: 19 Jan 2018, 12:54 »

Now you are stretching things a bit. If you go that road, "bitch" is also an insult, but it's not the same word and not the same meaning. Ok, I confess I didn't knew the word "catty". I'm always happy to enrich my english vocabulary... :-)

Being called a "tomcat" isn't exactly a compliment in most cases either. Maybe not overtly insulting, but...

On topic: my concern at the moment is Amanda and Evie (especially Evie) potentially setting back any relationship development between Faye and Bubbles with not only unsolicited encouragement/enthusiasm, but Evie finding the relationship fascinating and wanting to intellectually dissect it, to their detriment.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #208 on: 19 Jan 2018, 12:59 »

Quote
I dunno what the answer to it is other than to scrutinise every single word and parse ever single sentence you may speak before you ever do so.

How is that different from checking for pedestrians before you drive your car through an intersection?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #209 on: 19 Jan 2018, 13:04 »

There is an alternative that people have not considered.

What if Melon wanted to give the business money?

Its clear that Union Robotics isn't doing that well if Faye isn't budgeting money for something vital like food. Sure, they're doing repairs and doing a little ink, but that's not going to keep things afloat for too long.

Word might have gotten out that UR is fairly quiet and to an eccentric AI like Melon, she might want to help without looking like she's helping. Therefore, grab a dildo, take it in for a "check", pays the fee and throws in a substantial tip.

Sure, this is a wild theory, but it still certainly merits some thought.

I think it's a better theory then straight up assuming Melon is an idiot, Faye is being exploitative, and Jeph is a terrible storyteller.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #210 on: 19 Jan 2018, 13:18 »

I really want Melon, Emily and Evie to interact. Especially Melon and Emily.

Edit- And this made me notice a business opportunity:
Dora and Faye should open a Coffee of Doom branded Tea kiosk inside Union Robotics. The AI clients will love it and we, the audience, can get to interact more with whatever part of the CoD staff that's working there for the day.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #211 on: 19 Jan 2018, 14:06 »

Quote
I dunno what the answer to it is other than to scrutinise every single word and parse ever single sentence you may speak before you ever do so.

How is that different from checking for pedestrians before you drive your car through an intersection?

When you run someone over in a conversation, it's a metaphor, when you run them over in an intersection, it's (potentially) negligent manslaughter?

P.S.: Please don't take that as my arguing against your point, IICIH, it's just ... maybe not the best example to illustrate it?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #212 on: 19 Jan 2018, 14:09 »

Quote
I dunno what the answer to it is other than to scrutinise every single word and parse ever single sentence you may speak before you ever do so.

How is that different from checking for pedestrians before you drive your car through an intersection?

Checking for pedestrians is a relatively simple (and nearly-instinctive) exercise in visual pattern recognition. Checking for offence in a written comment requires a prolonged consideration of every phrase attempting to predict in advance how the most unpredictable thing in psychology - the human consciousness - will respond to any given phrase for motives about which you can only speculate and are always mutating into new variations.
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #213 on: 19 Jan 2018, 15:52 »

And yet with exercise, over time some aspects of it will start to become habit.  It's not as though we don't already have controls in our thinking and speaking, after all.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #214 on: 19 Jan 2018, 16:04 »

Just so. Maybe a better example is checking spelling and grammar before releasing a document. All part of not embarrassing yourself, and consideration for your audience.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #215 on: 19 Jan 2018, 16:55 »

And yet with exercise, over time some aspects of it will start to become habit.  It's not as though we don't already have controls in our thinking and speaking, after all.

The chances of me putting my foot in my mouth are Oh so very high with what I'm about to say. But that seems relevant.

Language changes. And it does so quite quickly, within decades at the moment. Words and descriptions that were commonplace in my childhood are now offensive and taboo (this is almost always a good thing. This is not one of *those* posts.)

Problem is, we don't clock the language changes at an equal rate. For example, cis as a description of heterosexuality (See- this is *wrong*, and it's to do with gender as was kindly pointed out below, and if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go scream into a pillow for a while) became the accepted word faster than I realised, and I got caught out by it back in the day. And because humans don't always learn things well or perfectly, we still get caught out even after learning the new language once, twice or however many times before it becomes habit.

So while it's true to say we can control what we say and how we say it, it's more a case of trending towards the common norm, not reaching a point of perfection. Sadly.

That all said, I think that concluding that all human interaction becomes a minefield of offense so bad one may as well return to the trees we swung down from is wrong (and probably hyperbole on the parts of those who said it anyway). We only learn by talking and listening, and there's a reason loneliness is seen as an epidemic- we're too social a species to survive well on our own. Even if we do get on each others nerves, like, all the time. So many nerves. All of the nerves.

So yeah, I'm not exactly disagreeing, but just reflecting that getting language right isn't a smooth process.
« Last Edit: 19 Jan 2018, 17:38 by SpanielBear »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #216 on: 19 Jan 2018, 17:30 »

For example, cis as a description of heterosexuality became the accepted word faster than I realised,
This connects to your point, so I hope you don't mind me saying it-- "cis" does not refer to heterosexuality; there are plenty of cis gay people, for example. Cis refers to gender and means that one's gender identity aligns with the gender one was assigned at birth.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #217 on: 19 Jan 2018, 18:41 »

God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater...uh, I mean Jacques!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #218 on: 19 Jan 2018, 18:51 »

I feel like it's kind of pointless to attach these deep levels of meaning to a strip involving Melon.  Doesn't it feel to you as though whenever she comes on panel, the comic just takes a break from all that which is serious and / or rational? That it just becomes all about the punchline, in a way that QC normally is not? That's my take on it.

If you insist on looking at it seriously, Melon didn't seem in any way unhappy with the transaction. Doesn't that count for anything? Last time when she expressed dismay at the $75 fee for her ass, it was partly because she had expected or hoped to get emergency treatment for free. Which, at least in my culture, is not an entirely unreasonable thing for an intelligent being to expect. She had also lost (launched into orbit) her wallet, which is another reason she wouldn't be thrilled to pay out for her new ass.

Once the idea of payment was established, she didn't seem to object to the specific price.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #219 on: 19 Jan 2018, 18:53 »


Part of my reaction to her is probably partly because of dealing with women like her in my women's studies courses when I was in college. Graduate students can be the absolute worst.

Yeah, I got that distinct impression that your impression of Evie has been somewhat (heavily maybe?) colored by your own negative experiences in college. Mostly because you seem to be transferring negative personality traits of those you encountered onto a cartoon character we know virtually nothing about. Some of your suppositions "I'm sure Evie lives in an echo chamber full of academics who think she has a brilliant mind" is not really based on anything.
If anything, PhD students are never treated as brilliant in academia, even when they may be. If anything, PhD students are reminded continually that they know basically nothing. I will say though that I am only speaking of those in STEM, I can't speak for those in humanities and social studies.

I agree though that graduate students can be the worst though...

Oh by the way, please note that I respect your opinion and am in no means trying to harp on you, it's mostly since your opinion on Evie seems to be by far the most negative here, and based on what we know atm I am surprised how anyone could have any particularly strong opinion yet about who she is. A strong opinion on how she interacted with Bubbles, sure, but sweeping conclusion on her personality/character or even upbringing (I think Morituri said 'wallowing in privilige', wonder where that came from??) are rather premature.

I will stop about this now.


Like I said, I dislike her more than anyone else on this forum. And I'm fine with that. I don't really agree that we don't see who she is yet, but that's what you think, and that's fine.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #220 on: 19 Jan 2018, 20:41 »

Transference seems to be the number one cause of venemous character reactions on here. Goes all the way back to that skinny kid in the first strip... What was his name again?

;)

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #221 on: 19 Jan 2018, 20:57 »

Marven.
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OldGoat

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #222 on: 19 Jan 2018, 21:13 »

Like I said, I dislike her more than anyone else on this forum.
How do you objectively quantify anything as subjective as love or hate?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #223 on: 20 Jan 2018, 00:26 »

Marven.

No, no; Marvin was the robot.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #224 on: 20 Jan 2018, 00:48 »

No, no, I think cesium133 is talking about the comic book publisher.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #225 on: 20 Jan 2018, 01:00 »

Things started going off the rails when Tannelore went to Jupiter to find herself.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #226 on: 20 Jan 2018, 01:45 »

If we're going there, it all really started because Tanners was neglected by Neatrice.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #227 on: 20 Jan 2018, 06:22 »

No need to scream into a pillow. Life is an endless course of continuing education. I try to allow for people who are a week behind the accepted vocabulary :-)

(Make sure to get up to speed before you visit the trans thread of course).

One of my pet ideas is that keeping up with the latest vocabulary is what economists call "signaling".

If you follow some nonsensical rule like taking your hat off when you enter a building, there is no direct benefit to the host. But you have just proven you will follow social norms even at the expense of doing something that makes no sense. That's not proof, but a heuristic, that you will follow other social norms like not torturing them to death. It's a reassuring thing to have evidence of.

Not saying it's "nonsensical", but there's a similar dynamic interacting with minorities. If they see that you've kept up with all the memos and are using the current word for their ethnic group, that gives them a tentative impression that you're not going to commit a hate crime. It means you have provably put effort into addressing them respectfully. It's a reassuring thing to have evidence of.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #228 on: 20 Jan 2018, 14:26 »

And yet with exercise, over time some aspects of it will start to become habit.  It's not as though we don't already have controls in our thinking and speaking, after all.
Ja, but some people's brain-mouth filter don't always work.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #229 on: 20 Jan 2018, 15:00 »

I notice a lot of people hating on Evie for her utterly clueless, obnoxious, and appalling behavior towards Bubbles. Her behavior is inexcusable, but natural.

Any graduate student in the grips of their dissertation research, in any domain, lives that work. It's all that matters -- it is your life, at least if you actually want to get those extra three letters. Evie is just behaving naturally.  (Trust me: it was a good thing for me that many of my friends during my last year of my graduate studies were also dissertators. They understood why I kept going on about things that they knew nothing about and would not have cared about if they did know anything about them.)

So, yes, Evie's a total jerk in so many ways, and her behavior is inexcusable. Unfortunately, inexcusable or not, it is  understandable.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #230 on: 21 Jan 2018, 02:48 »

Seconding this. When I was a graduate student, my social circle consisted only of math grad students and their significant others. Comes naturally when a bunch of people relocate themselves across the globe to go to grad school.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #231 on: 21 Jan 2018, 02:57 »

Some work environments can have the same effect, though.  The more intensive computer workplaces of my working life would probably qualify.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #232 on: 21 Jan 2018, 09:46 »

Poll Results!
Faye- 6 (10.7%)
Bubbles- 1 (1.8%)
Amanda- 11 (19.6%)
Evie- 13 (23.2%)
Someone else (Please list)- 1 (1.8%)
All of the above!- 24 (42.9%)

I suppose everyone did screw up somehow this last week.

Well, lets see how they top that over the coming week.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #233 on: 21 Jan 2018, 12:06 »

I notice a lot of people hating on Evie for her utterly clueless, obnoxious, and appalling behavior towards Bubbles. Her behavior is inexcusable, but natural.

Any graduate student in the grips of their dissertation research, in any domain, lives that work. It's all that matters -- it is your life, at least if you actually want to get those extra three letters. Evie is just behaving naturally.  (Trust me: it was a good thing for me that many of my friends during my last year of my graduate studies were also dissertators. They understood why I kept going on about things that they knew nothing about and would not have cared about if they did know anything about them.)

So, yes, Evie's a total jerk in so many ways, and her behavior is inexcusable. Unfortunately, inexcusable or not, it is  understandable.

Seconding this. When I was a graduate student, my social circle consisted only of math grad students and their significant others. Comes naturally when a bunch of people relocate themselves across the globe to go to grad school.

Thirded (and the relocation bit seems strictly optional)

And that's before accounting for the "proneness for monomania" that comes with my particular brand of congenital non-standard neurology ...



If we're going there, it all really started because Tanners was neglected by Neatrice.

Despite all those C-beams to the Tannhauser gate ...
« Last Edit: 21 Jan 2018, 13:47 by Case »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #234 on: 21 Jan 2018, 17:03 »

One of the more interesting aspects to the £100 dollar consutation is that melon thought that  75 dollars was a lot for a new butt.

She never complained about the price of the butt, just that she had to pay for it in the first place, despite it being an emergency. And then she got Arthur to pay for it because her wallet was eaten by a leopard seal.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #235 on: 21 Jan 2018, 23:22 »

FWIW, I suspect that Melon and Arthur fit into the category of 'eccentric and well-off'.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #236 on: 22 Jan 2018, 06:55 »

Any graduate student in the grips of their dissertation research, in any domain, lives that work. It's all that matters -- it is your life, at least if you actually want to get those extra three letters. Evie is just behaving naturally.

I know this is what many PhD students think, but this is really only true if you have a dictator as your advisor. There are plenty of those around, of course, but they're still by far a minority. With most 'normal' advisors (talking in the USA now), you can get your PhD perfectly fine by still working hard (e.g. 50-60 hr workweeks) but not having to be excessive or obsessive about it.
Personally, I was lucky enough (well, I did chose him I suppose) to have such a normal advisor, and while I probably could've graduated 1-1.5 yr sooner had I been excessive about it, I was much happier by taking a little longer but having a perfectly normal live and treating my PhD as a more or less normal job with only the occasional craziness. I was by no means an exception either, it's mostly about the right advisor.     

It also doesn't help that many PhD students convince themselves that they HAVE to be excessive about their PhD in order to graduate, even when their advisor would not even expect it...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #237 on: 23 Jan 2018, 00:36 »


Thirded (and the relocation bit seems strictly optional)

Conceding the point about relocation being optional. But the experience is more intense if you also uproot yourself from your homestead.

Quote from: Case
And that's before accounting for the "proneness for monomania" that comes with my particular brand of congenital non-standard neurology ...

I speak no psychobabble. Can some kind soul confirm my suspicion that this is a generalization of graduate students' creed: "We are proud to be a math nerds! We are proud to work 80+hours per week." (implying that we look down on the peers who don't)


I know this is what many PhD students think, but this is really only true if you have a dictator as your advisor. There are plenty of those around, of course, but they're still by far a minority. With most 'normal' advisors (talking in the USA now), you can get your PhD perfectly fine by still working hard (e.g. 50-60 hr workweeks) but not having to be excessive or obsessive about it.
Personally, I was lucky enough (well, I did chose him I suppose) to have such a normal advisor, and while I probably could've graduated 1-1.5 yr sooner had I been excessive about it, I was much happier by taking a little longer but having a perfectly normal live and treating my PhD as a more or less normal job with only the occasional craziness. I was by no means an exception either, it's mostly about the right advisor.     

It also doesn't help that many PhD students convince themselves that they HAVE to be excessive about their PhD in order to graduate, even when their advisor would not even expect it...

Since I have supervised/advised 4 PhD students to graduation I feel like commenting. I didn't insist that they would be doing math 24/7, but they did tell me that I half expected them to. Two of them did work "hard enough" for me. Even though one of those (quitter!) once excused themself for family reasons just when the team was close to completing the proof of a result.

But, my only female PhD student also wanted to spend time on things like yoga, travelling, and teaching outside the Uni on the side. Causing me to frown. So I don't think very highly of her math, but she is very successful. The only one of us who has advanced to the position of a professor!  Among other things she is very skilled in getting funding for herself, the rest of the team as well her students, so there's that :-) (may be my sour grapes talking?)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #238 on: 23 Jan 2018, 01:09 »

Now you are stretching things a bit. If you go that road, "bitch" is also an insult, but it's not the same word and not the same meaning. Ok, I confess I didn't knew the word "catty". I'm always happy to enrich my english vocabulary... :-)

Being called a "tomcat" isn't exactly a compliment in most cases either. Maybe not overtly insulting, but...

On topic: my concern at the moment is Amanda and Evie (especially Evie) potentially setting back any relationship development between Faye and Bubbles with not only unsolicited encouragement/enthusiasm, but Evie finding the relationship fascinating and wanting to intellectually dissect it, to their detriment.

Let put me it that way: take the exact phrase said by Faye : "it's like makin' friends with a dog that got kicked. If you go right in for belly rubs, you're gonna get bit". Let's simply change the word "dog" for the word "cat". To me, it somehow sounds far less insulting. Does it make any sense?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #239 on: 23 Jan 2018, 01:10 »

Any graduate student in the grips of their dissertation research, in any domain, lives that work. It's all that matters -- it is your life, at least if you actually want to get those extra three letters.

I've not been there; but as a counter-example I offer my wife, who got her PhD in the usual three years, part time while having a full-time job.  It involved some seasonal field work (the grass concerned needed to be in flower), and she fitted in travel to Scandinavia for some of that.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #240 on: 23 Jan 2018, 04:13 »

Let put me it that way: take the exact phrase said by Faye : "it's like makin' friends with a dog that got kicked. If you go right in for belly rubs, you're gonna get bit". Let's simply change the word "dog" for the word "cat". To me, it somehow sounds far less insulting. Does it make any sense?

Yeah, but a cat is likely to scratch you regardless of prior kicks if you go for the belly - dogs have a reputation for generally being more placid, with the chomping being a direct result of being kicked here. I can see your point, though I disagree with it, and feel that the quote wouldn't work as well with a cat. Also, part of the insulting insinuation is related to stuff like"gone to the dogs", I presume, which will be intentional. Not like Bubbles is in the best state!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #241 on: 23 Jan 2018, 13:41 »


Thirded (and the relocation bit seems strictly optional)

Conceding the point about relocation being optional. But the experience is more intense if you also uproot yourself from your homestead.

I didn't get to that part until my first postdoc, but I'm absolutely ready to take your word on the intensity-bit.

Quote from: Case
And that's before accounting for the "proneness for monomania" that comes with my particular brand of congenital non-standard neurology ...

I speak no psychobabble. Can some kind soul confirm my suspicion that this is a generalization of graduate students' creed: "We are proud to be a math nerds! We are proud to work 80+hours per week." (implying that we look down on the peers who don't)

Errrhnope - I live with (I refuse to say "I suffer ...") a neurological disorder called ADD ("predominantly inattentive subtype" - though there's controversy about the usefulness of the whole subtype-idea, here I'll use "ADD" as meaning the former, "ADHD" as meaning "predominantly hyperactive/impulsive subtype" and "AD(H)D" when I refer to all three subtypes) since my birth (hence the 'congenital'), and have been wrestling with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) for more than two decades (though it's been a while since I last experienced acute 'Brainlock'; these days it's more like general anxiety and what is called "ruminations" - and with the SNRI's I get for that one, the anxiety is manageable).

ADD is a congenital (neuro-)developmental disorder (language disorders, learning disorders, motor disorders and autism spectrum disorders, ADD/ADHD ...) and people who were born with those specific flavours of borked headmeat are referred to as 'neuroatypical' (as opposed to the 'neurotypical', i.e. the rest of humanity. "Born this way", so to speak ...  :-D). Contrary to what many people in the 80s believed (including my family's physician), AD(H)D does not only afflict children - roughly one third of those diagnosed with AD(H)D in childhood "continue to experience significant symptoms into adulthood", and I am part of that third.

OCD, too, can by traced to a dysfunction of a part of the brain called caudate nucleus (in my understanding, the CN is part of the brain's internal 'taskmanager' - the part that adds a "done"-flag to a thought-process. But that's layperson-talk), so all the talk about neurosis notwithstanding, the root of OCD is also organic, i.e. neurological. Furthermore, I vaguely remember reading about speculation that when AD(H)D and OCD appear together, the former sort of 'induces' the latter - makes sense to me, since my most long-lasting intrusive thoughts revolve(d) around functioning and executive functioning, which touches on the areas where I'm "non-standard" -> "Am I even talented enough to understand math?" was a longtime tormentor companion (After the second advanced degree with high honours, it started feeling a little out of place, I guess  :evil:), more recently, it's cousin "You really sure there's no sign-change in that exponent? You only checked three times - maybe spend another three weeks checking the whole thing with Mathematica?" is applying for "resident torturer", despite my insistence that the position is no longer available ("Thank the Lord for Serotonine re-uptake inhibitors!")

ADD is basically about focus control : Nothing wrong with my ability to focus - in fact, like many people with ADD, I can access hyperfocus (and with medication, I can 'control' that state ... in the broadest sense of 'control'). The problem of the ADDer is controlling focus - my 'gaspedal' basically only knows the settings 'idle' and 'flank speed ahead' (and 'Are you nuts?', sometimes), and the latter highly depends on factors like 'interest in the topic' and carefully balancing eustress and distress (Trouble is that most employers don't really appreciate 'This stuff is simply too boring for me to perform well' as an explanation for underachievement, even if it's the literal, scientifically proven truth). I'm basically built for "panicked last-minute binge-learning", because anxiety is stimulating, which kicks in the hyperfocus. But that's kinda hit-and-miss, too: Miss the "stress-balance", and instead of "alert & driven, but not yet paralysed by fear", you end up really focussed on how royally screwed you are. That 'system' worked in school and the first semesters of Uni, but brute force sprint-learning simply doesn't cut it past a certain point - not to mention that it's not by any means enjoyable, even for a young person. I used to call that particular semiconscious mindgames-with-myself-but-pretending-not-to-notice "getting before the breaking wave", like a surfer getting into a 'tunnel' - with the implication that you'll be treated to a good trashing at best if you miscalculate and fall behind. There is a theory that AD(H)D might be related to an evolutionary adaptation in hunter-gatherer societies; I get where they're coming from (afaik, lots of folk with ADHD seriously enjoy extreme sports), but that one always felt a little too neat for me - either way, that's about as 'enjoyable' as that strategy of 'freaking yourself out just short of panicking' is: Like hunting a (dangerous) animal. When it works, it's a blast for a few seconds, but the rest of the time, it means constant anxiety to keep the guilt and self-doubt company (Nice to fantasise that my neurology would make me Mr. Big-swinging-cod-Mammoth-hunter in a stone age tribe - trouble is, it's not the Holocene anymore ...).
 The only other thing that works longtime is stimulant medication - and tons of therapy for the OCD and the after-effects of decades of guilt, anxiety and crippling self-doubt (One of the nasty things about ADD is that you know that you underperform, but you have no proof in the form of grades, and as much as any parent would like to believe their academically struggling offspring that they're really much smarter than their grades ... which struggling student wouldn't like to believe that they're much smarter than their grades? I have been dismissed by a psychiatrist as "giving myself ideas above my station/intelligence" when I was 12 and seeking help - sadly, that sick asshole is dead, so I can't make him eat a copy of my PhD-evaluation along with his words. Before reporting him to the "Ärtztekammer" ...)
 And OCD ... well it's not called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder because it's conducive to a regular and steady working/learning style, know what I mean? The resulting working/learning style I ended up with is ... not really standard. I have to use the tools I was given, I can't simply be someone I'm not. Stimulant medication for ADD doesn't make the ADD go away, it's more that it "makes the ADD go all the way until it works" (that's the way it feels, at least). And I'm still kind of a obsessive/compulsive character, even now that I'm "kindasorta cured".
 
Part of that strategy is "slow down to go faster" - painful, straightforward working against the disorders (e.g. like forcing myself to "think slowly and step by step" which my ADD-brain isn't really fond of. I've gone as far as making myself copying/extending a lecture in longhand just to force myself to "slow down") and part of it is trying to kind of 'harness' the strengths implicit in the disorders where they're useful: Sticking to rituals e.g. is really soothing, even if they're not the rituals your OCD wants to force you into - like tricking a kid by sweetening medicine that tastes bad. Especially when aided by medication, adhering to step-by-step "slow thinking" and simultaneous documentation has the side-effect that I can keep the whole calculation in my long-term memory (ADD is associated with weakened working memory) - at which point my proneness to associations and intuitive leaps turns from a weakness (association + weak short-term memory => distractability/loosing train of thought) into a strength (creativity, being good at making connections, seeing stuff that others overlook). But I need either medication for that, or meticulous, long-term preparation. I've heard that Actor Jim Caviziel, one of the "no meds, just working out and working through it"-faction, operates in a similar fashion: Meticulous preparation, in all levels of detail. Makes sense to me: I'm really, really bad at prioritizing, but when I 'simply' work through all the details, I have a mental model I can 'walk around in' and my ADD becomes an advantage. Sort of "Your working memory is weak and your shit at realtime prioritizing? That sucks. Here's pen & paper - your long-term memory is perfectly fine, and you don't need to prioritize in real-time if you write it all down". It's a strategy that nobody with a neurotypical brain would even think of trying - but there's tasks where this method not only compensates for the disorders, but actually gives me an edge.


And on top of that, I took to the "You're leaving? It's not even 8 pm!"-school of thought of getting a PhD that you mentioned above like a duck takes to water very anxious PhD-student whose advisor was one of those wunderkinder who finished his PhD in 18 months, got his Dr.Habil at 27, and considered stuff like "We'll limit your contract to two years initially - that should help motivate you" as helpful employer/employee interaction.



P.S.: Skewbrow? I think you're good people, but I'm not really cool with words like 'psychobabble', and especially not in the context of mental health trouble that cost me decades of heart-, and headache. Neither am I cool with the suggestion (or suspicion) that it might not exist at all. My headmeat stuff is not as difficult to deal with as that which many, many other people hereabouts live with daily - like autism spectrum disorders, major depression, or psychosis - and as far as I understand it, it's a walk in the park compared to gender dysphoria, but it's certainly not nothing, or 'psychobabble'. Or a generalization of what normal people do (not even for NatSci grad-student values of 'normal'). Both conditions were diagnosed by experienced mental health professionals, not the oft-cited "1st semester psych major bloke I met on Tumblr". Both conditions are listed in the "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders" - one requirement for the entry into that manual is that the condition "causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning". In other words: "No fun at all".
« Last Edit: 24 Jan 2018, 12:13 by Case »
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TheEvilDog

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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #242 on: 23 Jan 2018, 14:24 »

Now you are stretching things a bit. If you go that road, "bitch" is also an insult, but it's not the same word and not the same meaning. Ok, I confess I didn't knew the word "catty". I'm always happy to enrich my english vocabulary... :-)

Being called a "tomcat" isn't exactly a compliment in most cases either. Maybe not overtly insulting, but...

On topic: my concern at the moment is Amanda and Evie (especially Evie) potentially setting back any relationship development between Faye and Bubbles with not only unsolicited encouragement/enthusiasm, but Evie finding the relationship fascinating and wanting to intellectually dissect it, to their detriment.

Let put me it that way: take the exact phrase said by Faye : "it's like makin' friends with a dog that got kicked. If you go right in for belly rubs, you're gonna get bit". Let's simply change the word "dog" for the word "cat". To me, it somehow sounds far less insulting. Does it make any sense?

Depends on how you look at it. Dogs are consistently the animal that has been closest to humans for a large part of our history, to the point where we describe them as "Man's Best Friend". They embody traits we find admirable and desirable, such as loyalty, friendship. What Faye is saying here is that Bubbles is someone who has been betrayed and will lash out at someone she perceives as a threat towards her. But in taking her time, Faye regained some of that inherent loyalty and got Bubbles to open up. So by changing that to cat, you've kind changed the whole thing to where it makes no sense.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #243 on: 23 Jan 2018, 15:12 »

All right kids, story time:

Many years ago I adopted a cat who had been abused by his previous owner. He was a very sweet and gentle cat who never once tried to bite or claw me. But it took a solid year before he would stop flinching every time I reached down to pet him. Eventually he relaxed, at least around me - he finally realized that I was never going to hurt him. But he was still wary around other people, and absolutely terrified of one guy I knew who must have reminded him of his previous owner.

I have been around abused dogs, and their behavior is similar. On top of that, this cat gave me some insight into some of my own behavioral patterns - I realized I was constantly going into a (metaphorical) defensive crouch regardless of whether the situation warranted it or not, due to years of emotional abuse.

So speaking from personal experience, I’d say that Bubbles may very well recognize the similarities between her own behavior and that of an abused animal. The psychological reaction seems to be similar regardless of species.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #244 on: 23 Jan 2018, 18:04 »

Bubbles seems not to have had experience as a pet caretaker, though. I'm thinking of her over the top reaction to being responsible for a house plant.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #245 on: 23 Jan 2018, 23:04 »

Her analogy is sound though, so I imagine she's at least spoken to, or read about, someone who has had that experience.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #246 on: 24 Jan 2018, 12:49 »

P.S.: Skewbrow? I think you're good people, but I'm not really cool with words like 'psychobabble', and especially not in the context of mental health trouble ...... In other words: "No fun at all".

I apologize. Bad choice of words. I attempted to convey my own ignorance about psychology in general and psychological terminology in particular, but that's not how it came out. Sorry.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #247 on: 24 Jan 2018, 15:03 »

P.S.: Skewbrow? I think you're good people, but I'm not really cool with words like 'psychobabble', and especially not in the context of mental health trouble ...... In other words: "No fun at all".

I apologize. Bad choice of words. I attempted to convey my own ignorance about psychology in general and psychological terminology in particular, but that's not how it came out. Sorry.

No sweat & I was sure it was something like that - it's good to have confirmation, though. Thanks for that.

P.S.: I'm not really used to talking about it. This is sort of me learning to talk about the conditions, and the period of time during which I learned to 'deal with them' (not sure about the past tense. Not at all ...). So I'm probably a bit more defensive and mistrusting than warranted - still learning. There definitely are uncaring assholes, or even those who put the knife in, but ... they have a different 'smell' to them.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #248 on: 24 Jan 2018, 15:53 »

Global Moderator Comment I've exhumed an old OCD thread, inspired by the quality and usefulness of the discussion here in the WCDT.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3656-3660 (15th to 19th January 2018)
« Reply #249 on: 25 Jan 2018, 10:40 »

P.S.: Skewbrow? I think you're good people, but I'm not really cool with words like 'psychobabble', and especially not in the context of mental health trouble ...... In other words: "No fun at all".

I apologize. Bad choice of words. I attempted to convey my own ignorance about psychology in general and psychological terminology in particular, but that's not how it came out. Sorry.

Having said that I still have some bangs of guilt. You see, in my youth I had a strong tendency to dismiss sciences other than the exact sciences as, well, less exact. Something where "truth" varies from one decade to another has not IMNSHO really reached the "maturity" of the exact sciences. Later in life I have come to acknowledge that a field of study is worth pursuing even if they are still looking for the solid foundation. But, the comment exchange brought me back to those worry-free years of my youth. I dare not speculate whether attitudes I entertained back then also resurfaced here (subconsciously?) affecting my choice of phrase.
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