Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

  • 09 Dec 2019, 13:51
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Marigold. Foot. Mouth. Extraction method?

She realizes she made a mistake and apologizes.
- 1 (1.9%)
She buries her head under the covers until Momo forces her to apologize.
- 18 (34.6%)
She runs off and joins Hanners on her quest for self-fulfillment.
- 2 (3.8%)
She stubbornly refuses to acknowledge she screwed up, shoe-leather-aftertaste be damned!
- 15 (28.8%)
Purple Monkey Dishwashers.
- 7 (13.5%)
Spathe Ham.
- 4 (7.7%)
Something else.
- 5 (9.6%)

Total Members Voted: 52


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)  (Read 15208 times)

jwhouk

  • Awakened
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,394
  • The Valley of the Sun
WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« on: 18 Feb 2018, 19:52 »

No thread? I am shocked, shocked, I tell you...
Logged
"Character is what you are in the Dark." - D.L. Moody
There is no joke that can be made online without someone being offended by it.
Life's too short to be ashamed of how you were born.
8645

Case

Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #1 on: 18 Feb 2018, 20:36 »

FFS Dale! What ...? How do you ...? I ...!!! You ... IDIOT!
Logged
"Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter" - Rosa Luxemburg
"The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you're a member of the Dunning-Kruger club. People miss that." - David Dunning

zisraelsen

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 229
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #2 on: 18 Feb 2018, 20:47 »

My reaction to this strip was "I sure am glad Dale picked up on Marigold's jealousy from last strip! Hopefully he can Oh No Dale Stop"
Logged
Zack is easier to type than Zisraelsen, so

QuestionableIntentions

  • Larger than most fish
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #3 on: 18 Feb 2018, 21:05 »

So after Marigold's many screw ups now it's his turn.
Logged

OldGoat

  • Bling blang blong blung
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,006
  • Give me heresy, or give me death.
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #4 on: 18 Feb 2018, 21:14 »

Dale's fundamental decency as a human being sometimes masks the fact that he, too, is a total and absolute nerd completely lacking instinctual understanding of social interactions.  But he can and will learn.
Logged

shanejayell

  • Vagina Manifesto
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
    • Church of Yuri
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #5 on: 18 Feb 2018, 21:20 »

I just realized his glasses were glowing because he was checking online while he was talking to her.

DALE, THE INTERNET IS NOT FOR RELATIONSHIP HELP!

Tova

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,102
  • You're not the only one, no.
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #6 on: 18 Feb 2018, 21:32 »

Okay, now I'm hoping for a Momo intervention.
Logged
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." - Sir Joshua Reynolds (paraphrased)

A Duck

  • Curry sauce
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 267
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #7 on: 18 Feb 2018, 21:36 »

Wow. I knew Dale was most likely gonna screw this up, but... WOW.

Damn.

That is gonna take some work to fix.
Logged

brasca

  • Scrabble hacker
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,303
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #8 on: 18 Feb 2018, 22:15 »

I can sympathize with Dale to a point, but he’s been with Marigold long enough to of her insecurities.  He really should’ve exercised more tact.
Logged

Tova

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,102
  • You're not the only one, no.
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #9 on: 18 Feb 2018, 22:19 »

All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.
Logged
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." - Sir Joshua Reynolds (paraphrased)

hedgie

  • Vulcan 3-D Chess Master
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,924
  • Can't be buggered at all
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #10 on: 18 Feb 2018, 22:32 »

I can sympathize with Dale to a point, but he’s been with Marigold long enough to of her insecurities.  He really should’ve exercised more tact.

This *is* the guy who couldn't find a way to work up the nerve to just talk to her and so stalked her in WoW as an attempt at flirtation.  Without the intervention of May and Momo, they wouldn't even be together in the first place.  Out of Dale's virtues, being socially astute is not one of them.
Logged
"Madness is rare in individuals - but in groups, parties, nations, and ages it is the rule." -- Nietzsche

"Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space, 'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!"  -- The Pythons

BenRG

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 6,576
  • Boldly Going From The Back Seat!
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #11 on: 18 Feb 2018, 23:13 »

This is probably the biggest crisis that Dale and Marigold have had, although far from an unprecedented one. As has been exhaustively discussed in last week's thread, Marigold is very insecure about Dale's feelings for her and very insecure about her own self-worth. Because of that, they have had rough patches we've seen with her acting on her insecurity in a way that Dale would have been justified in taking as a red flag. In her defence, I can't imagine how Dale could have handled this worse. In fact, the way he put it suggests that, yes, he does find Emily attractive. However, that doesn't mean that he's planning on acting on it ever.

Ultimately, I empathise with Dale, also being bad at considering how my listeners may feel before I blurt out something. I wonder if he frantically had tried to plan out something in his mind only for Marigold not to react in accord with this imaginings, thus leaving him high and dry?
Logged
~~~~

They call me BenRG... But I don't know why!

Mordhaus

  • Larger than most fish
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 102
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #12 on: 18 Feb 2018, 23:45 »

When speaking with an upset woman, less is more. I try to keep it to 3 words or fewer.
    • I'm wrong.
    • You're right (insert absolutely if you are in deep).
    • I'm sorry.
    • I love you.
    • Yes, Dear.

    In dire times, you can string them together, but no more than 3.

    Like, "Yes dear, you're right, I am sorry."
Logged

gopher

  • Bizarre cantaloupe phobia
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 241
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #13 on: 18 Feb 2018, 23:51 »

Even the most secure, long term relationship with people who are experienced and knowledgeable in and about love would suffer to survive this kind of "honesty" , for two people in their first it could be terminal.
Logged

Castlerook

Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #14 on: 19 Feb 2018, 00:29 »

And for his next trick, Dale will shove his other foot into his mouth.
Logged
Whenever someone says "I'm not book smart but I am street smart.", all I hear is "I'm not real smart, but I am imaginary smart."

oddtail

  • Asleep in the boner patch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 763
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #15 on: 19 Feb 2018, 00:30 »

I'm facepalming so hard right now =D

The funny thing is, it's all about phrasing. Literally everything he said could've been rephrased in a way that'd be reassuring instead of upsetting and mildly insulting.

Dale doesn't have to shower her with compliments, he just has to say whatever he has to say in a slightly less... "she's better than you in every way" manner.
Logged

traroth

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #16 on: 19 Feb 2018, 01:00 »

Is QC turning into a silliness contest?

I mean, we all are oblivious sometimes, or say something inappropriate we regret later. But not everybody all the time!
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2018, 01:21 by traroth »
Logged
"Courage is freedom and freedom is happiness" --Thucydides

BenRG

  • WoW gold miner on break
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 6,576
  • Boldly Going From The Back Seat!
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #17 on: 19 Feb 2018, 01:20 »

Even though these two aren't the most, um, socially adept individuals, I'm surprised they're this bad at talking to each other.

I can't help but wonder if, normally they don't communicate much verbally at all. It's possible that their interactions are normally to playing games, watching (and critiquing) animé and sex. They've never really got to the point where they discuss feelings for each other, outside of reassuring each other that any doubts the other has are silly.

Basically, their relationship is that of a pair of dating teenagers. Maybe this arc is about them finding depth or just quitting because it's becoming too hard to maintain (let alone progress) the relationship any further.
Logged
~~~~

They call me BenRG... But I don't know why!

traroth

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 537
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #18 on: 19 Feb 2018, 01:27 »

All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.

To me, what happened is also a short story arc. I can't see any relationship recovering from what just happened.
Logged
"Courage is freedom and freedom is happiness" --Thucydides

SpanielBear

  • Pneumatic ratchet pants
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #19 on: 19 Feb 2018, 02:24 »

Last week Dale stepped on a landmine.

This week he jumps up and down on it.
Logged

Tova

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,102
  • You're not the only one, no.
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #20 on: 19 Feb 2018, 02:57 »

All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.

To me, what happened is also a short story arc. I can't see any relationship recovering from what just happened.

Relationships have recovered from more dire straits than these.

I'm not putting any money down, mind...
Logged
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." - Sir Joshua Reynolds (paraphrased)

DaiJB

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 145
  • Dazed and bemused by this thing called Reality
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #21 on: 19 Feb 2018, 03:03 »

Last week Dale stepped on a landmine.

This week he jumps up and down on it.

 :laugh:

Last week, Dale heard the "click" and belatedly realized he was in a minefield.

This week, he quickly looked up "How to defuse landmines" on Google and said to himself "This shouldn't be too hard..."

Logged

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,222
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #22 on: 19 Feb 2018, 03:14 »

Cheating leads to a breakdown of trust which is commonly irrecoverable; misunderstanding is comparatively easy to correct, though care may be required; suspicion, as in this case, falls in between.

Yes, this is recoverable; but yes, Dale needs to do some serious work to get there.
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #23 on: 19 Feb 2018, 03:16 »

All he had to say in panel 2 was, "'Cause you're the one I love, not her!" But that would have been quite a short story arc.

To me, what happened is also a short story arc. I can't see any relationship recovering from what just happened.

... I've BEEN in relationships that have easily survived much worse than that.

Idk. Yeah, he probably worded it badly, and she is being irrationally jealous, but to be honest, this doesn't seem like nearly as big of a deal as people seem to be making it out to be in the thread to me.

EDIT: Also, people need to get over the fact that more than likely, your SO doesn't think you are the most attractive person, the smartest person, the funniest person, the most whatever person on the planet. Maybe it comes from being poly myself, but it just seems like a really unhealthy thing to expect.
Logged

brightwings00

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #24 on: 19 Feb 2018, 03:33 »

Quote
EDIT: Also, people need to get over the fact that more than likely, your SO doesn't think you are the most attractive person, the smartest person, the funniest person, the most whatever person on the planet. Maybe it comes from being poly myself, but it just seems like a really unhealthy thing to expect.

What does being poly have to do with it? Genuine question.

And sure, I know I'm not Lupita N'yongo or Manny Jacinto, but how does my SO telling me that lead to anything supportive or productive? Attractiveness is all subjective, anyways. If what my SO had to say about my looks was "Well, sure, she's prettier than you, but..." you can bet your butt I'd be out of there. 
Logged

pwhodges

  • Admin emeritus
  • Awakened
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16,222
  • I'll only say this once...
    • My home page
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #25 on: 19 Feb 2018, 03:44 »

If what my SO had to say about my looks was "Well, sure, she's prettier than you, but..." you can bet your butt I'd be out of there.

I would ask you in turn: Why?  Isn't "prettiness" a rather arbitrary thing to feel judged over?
Logged
"Being human, having your health; that's what's important."  (from: Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi )
"As long as we're all living, and as long as we're all having fun, that should do it, right?"  (from: The Eccentric Family )

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #26 on: 19 Feb 2018, 03:48 »

Quote
EDIT: Also, people need to get over the fact that more than likely, your SO doesn't think you are the most attractive person, the smartest person, the funniest person, the most whatever person on the planet. Maybe it comes from being poly myself, but it just seems like a really unhealthy thing to expect.

What does being poly have to do with it? Genuine question.

And sure, I know I'm not Lupita N'yongo or Manny Jacinto, but how does my SO telling me that lead to anything supportive or productive? Attractiveness is all subjective, anyways. If what my SO had to say about my looks was "Well, sure, she's prettier than you, but..." you can bet your butt I'd be out of there.

Feels obvious to me on why being poly has to do with it? If my wife is dating someone else, I'm sure that they have at least some qualities where she prefers them over me, and the other way around, where I have some qualities she prefers over them. If she tells me what it is, it probably wouldn't phase me, as long as she still loves me, wants to be with me, then it isn't a big deal.

The thing is, I've always been a person where I'd rather have honesty than pretty lies. And there is a difference between someone telling you that out of the blue and someone responding to something you said with it.

By saying what she did, if Dale thinks that Emily is prettier than her (also notice that he did air quotes around prettier, he could have meant in a traditional sense, whereas he was going to say something about finding her more attractive regardless, we don't know because he got cut off) he is given three options: 1. Lie, which I don't think anyone should have to do in a relationship, or 2. Avoid the subject entirely, in which case Marigold is still going to have it confirmed in her head (of course, he avoided saying it, its because he believes it!) 3. Tell the truth but say it doesn't matter to how he feels (what it looked like he was doing).

People shouldn't be put in positions where they feel they have to lie in a relationship.

In my opinion, honesty in a relationship IS the best option.
Logged

brightwings00

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #27 on: 19 Feb 2018, 04:06 »

Quote from: pwhodges
I would ask you in turn: Why?  Isn't "prettiness" a rather arbitrary thing to feel judged over?

Quote from: Emperor Norton
By saying what she did, if Dale thinks that Emily is prettier than her (also notice that he did air quotes around prettier, he could have meant in a traditional sense, whereas he was going to say something about finding her more attractive regardless, we don't know because he got cut off) he is given three options: 1. Lie, which I don't think anyone should have to do in a relationship, or 2. Avoid the subject entirely, in which case Marigold is still going to have it confirmed in her head (of course, he avoided saying it, its because he believes it!) 3. Tell the truth but say it doesn't matter to how he feels (what it looked like he was doing).

I guess for me, it's just weird to quantify things like attractiveness and humour and intelligence, where it's like everything's on a scale and you can measure it. It'd be like saying "this apple is obviously better than this orange", only every single person on Earth is a different kind of fruit. (Maybe Emily has more of the traits society has deemed attractive--height, a thin frame, clear skin, etc.--but I think we can all agree that society has some BS expectations in the first place.) So when an SO says "Well, she's 'prettier' than you, but...", it's like a) that's not nice, helpful or useful for you to say, b) why is there a competition in the first place?

I mean, yeah, I believe Dale was getting at "you're beautiful and funny and smart to me, because you're you"--which is the important thing--but the way he worded it all was so atrocious I think even a non-chronically insecure person would be going 'what the everloving hell'.
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #28 on: 19 Feb 2018, 04:14 »

It isn't a contest. Marigold is the one making it a contest.

And despite what you say, I can't imagine you don't have friends you find funnier, friends you find more empathetic, friends you find smarter (to be fair, we usually break this down much further than just overall smart. I consider my wife to have much better language skills than me, but we both know that I'm better than her at math). It doesn't mean they are better as people, or that you care about them more or less because of it. Like you said: It isn't a competition. Not being a competition doesn't mean that we don't all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I mean, if your computer broke down (assuming of course, that you aren't the friend who is good with computers), you know which friend you would call right? It isn't a situation where all of them are equally smart.
Logged

brightwings00

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #29 on: 19 Feb 2018, 04:24 »

Quote from: Emperor Norton
It isn't a contest. Marigold is the one making it a contest.

And despite what you say, I can't imagine you don't have friends you find funnier, friends you find more empathetic, friends you find smarter (to be fair, we usually break this down much further than just overall smart. I consider my wife to have much better language skills than me, but we both know that I'm better than her at math). It doesn't mean they are better as people, or that you care about them more or less because of it. Like you said: It isn't a competition. Not being a competition doesn't mean that we don't all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I mean, if your computer broke down (assuming of course, that you aren't the friend who is good with computers), you know which friend you would call right? It isn't a situation where all of them are equally smart.

Marigold started it, but Dale said "You're not a super-genius" and "Well, she's 'prettier' than you, but..." He's really not helping. (It's possible I'm more sympathetic towards Marigold here because, well, I am Marigold in a lot of ways.)

And I do get what you're saying about strengths and weaknesses, but I think "good looks" and "humour" and "intelligence" are too broad as terms to be quantified as such. I mean, because one friend is good at computers doesn't mean she/he is/they are objectively smarter than the others. 
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #30 on: 19 Feb 2018, 04:31 »

Except Emily isn't just "good with computers". She is LITERALLY a super genius. She has done stuff that goes into the Arthur C. Clarke "indistinguishable from magic" level.

Honestly, I wouldn't consider being told that I'm not as smart as someone who is clearly on a level beyond 99.999999% of humanity as an insult. And I consider my intelligence to be one of my better traits (I've never felt intellectually challenged, not even at college. Most of the challenge I've faced mentally was boredom).
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #31 on: 19 Feb 2018, 04:43 »

Ehhh, keep in mind that the only one where he actually said that Emily was better was the super genius line.

He didn't say he found her funnier, he actually said that he thought they were both funny, just in different ways. And the "prettier" line was 1. He put prettier in air quotes, and 2. cut off, so we don't know what he was going to say. It could have been about what he finds attractive vs standard beauty, or that pretty didn't matter, or any other number of things. His wording was not "I find her prettier", It was "Even if she is "prettier"...". That isn't talking about from his perspective, that is talking from a general perspective. It's also not even taking it as a given that it is true.

I do think that he is not doing that well, but he was literally put in a situation where there is almost no answer that is going to fix it. Outside of outright lying, I'm not sure there was a response that would go well. (And even if he outright lied, who knows if she would believe any of it anyway. And if she does believe it, is deceiving someone you are in a relationship really a good idea? Or he could avoid the subject, which just makes her think that he is avoiding it on purpose... because of course it is true!)
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2018, 04:48 by Emperor Norton »
Logged

brightwings00

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #32 on: 19 Feb 2018, 04:58 »

Except Emily isn't just "good with computers". She is LITERALLY a super genius. She has done stuff that goes into the Arthur C. Clarke "indistinguishable from magic" level.

Honestly, I wouldn't consider being told that I'm not as smart as someone who is clearly on a level beyond 99.999999% of humanity as an insult. And I consider my intelligence to be one of my better traits (I've never felt intellectually challenged, not even at college. Most of the challenge I've faced mentally was boredom).

I get that. I do think that what we see as intelligence owes a lot to education, and upbringing, and application thereat, and cultural and sociopolitical biases, and so many different factors that it's hard to quantify people on exact scales of smartness. There's a lot of criticism out there of the IQ system, for example, by people like Stephen Jay Gould and Keith Stanovich.

I also think that for Marigold, there's an emotional difference between Dale comparing her computer skills with Emily's and her computer skills with, say, Steve Wozniak's, and that emotional difference isn't negligible--nor should it be dismissed out of hand in a healthy relationship. If you use the whole "comparison is the thief of joy" mentality, it's better to focus on what she is and what she's proud of--"you're good at x, you do x, you're x and x"--instead of what she isn't (a super-genius, as traditionally pretty as Emily), and you tell the truth in a positive way which boost hers instead of framing it in a negative way.
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #33 on: 19 Feb 2018, 05:13 »

Here is the thing, and I think it is a problem we are developing as we become more aware, and more understanding of mental issues. Yes, we need to be more empathetic to people with issues. But sometimes, I feel we are getting to the point where we give so much leeway to people with mental issues, we completely abandon empathy for the people who are having to react to it.

Dale could have reacted in any number of ways to Marigold's irrational jealousy. When he realized what it was, he could have gotten angry. I mean, to be fair, that isn't a completely unreasonable response. "I was just talking with a friend laughing, and she immediately acts like I'm cheating on her!" He could have just been like "No, I'm not dealing with this." He could have laughed because he thought it was absurd. All of those would have been reactions where I would basically just say yeah, he is kind of fucking up.

What he is trying to do is deal with it, by being honest and then... in all honesty we have no idea the and then part. Because she reacts by cutting him off, not letting him finish what he was saying (which for all we know was a list of the things he thinks are great about her), and then stomping off. (which, in my opinion, refusing to even listen to what your SO is trying to say is much worse than anything Dale is doing).

Dale was put in a near-impossible situation and was clearly trying to be sympathetic, and yet still because he didn't come up with a perfect response he is being treated as though he is socially clueless by the people on the board. This idea that he is fucking up and is at fault for trying to reassure her, even if it wasn't in the way that people think is "best" (which by the way, depends on the person, I still believe based on her personality, that avoiding responding to what she said, would just cause her to believe that he didn't respond because it is true), is bullshit.
Logged

SpanielBear

  • Pneumatic ratchet pants
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #34 on: 19 Feb 2018, 05:27 »

I think it's more a case of Dale doing the classic thing of answering the question that's being asked rather than the question that's implied. I don't think that's his fault or that it's something he should be castigated for, it's just that the nature of the discussion is completely different to what he first thought so he's been taken off guard. In a perfect world he'd be in tune with what his partner's red flags are and spot when they are triggered, but even the most loving of couples aren't going to get that right all the time.

At a basic level, I don't think Marigold cares whether Dale thinks she's the cleverest or funniest. What matters to Marigold is whether Dale cares for her. On an insecure level, living with the idea that someone is with you only because they haven't found someone better, with the continual paranoid belief that everyone is better than you-  I can see why Marigold would need some basic reassurance. Is that childish? Yeah, maybe. But anyone who thinks they are always adult about their emotions is in for a shock.

The point is, Dale isn't doing anything wrong, he's just being (briefly and unintentionally) emotionally illiterate- he's recognised that Marigold is jealous, but not why that is or how to resolve it. At the same time, Marigold needs to build up some emotional resilience and trust that when Dale says he likes her, he really means it. They're going to have to talk this out to grow stronger. Or else fall apart, break up, and end up having the same conflict over and over with each new partner until it finally clicks.

(Also- low self esteem =/= mental health problems. It often correlates, but isn't indicative. Not sure if that's what was being implied, but there was enough discussion last week about the risks of hasty pathologising that it seems worth mentioning here. It's fair to note that providing emotional support is hard work though.)
Logged

BryanP

  • Emoticontraindication
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #35 on: 19 Feb 2018, 05:37 »

I've been Dale level clueless in my life.  I turn 50 this year, so remembering my 20s accurately is a problem.

It's easy for me to say what he should have said.  Something like "She's a lot of things, including my friend, but she's not YOU." 

20 year old me probably would have said something as stupid and useless as what Dale just did.
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #36 on: 19 Feb 2018, 05:43 »

I wouldn't even consider it emotionally illiterate. I also wouldn't consider it "stupid and useless". We have no idea what his point was, or what he was about to say: She never let him finish talking.
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #37 on: 19 Feb 2018, 05:54 »

Here, let me explain more thoroughly by what I mean about a lack of sympathy for people who are having to deal with other people's mental issues (which I agree are self esteem issues are not necessarily pathological, but it is still on the list of things that we generally fall into this trap over)

I've had a lot of relationships with people who have had various issues. Depression. Self-esteem. Anger. Social phobias. Sexual issues stemming from abuse.

I have struggled with depression and self-esteem in the past, but for the most part, I've worked through it. For quite a while, I've been a well-adjusted adult who has a handle on their life.

When people who have issues lash out, people excuse it based on the issues they have. They get to act badly and it "isn't their fault, they are struggling with things".

On the other hand, if you don't react perfectly to every single thing they do, you get called "emotionally illiterate" or told that the things you did are "stupid and useless." People don't say "Wow, you got put in a bad situation and you tried your best, sorry that it didn't work out, I hope things go better." The sympathy isn't there for the person who has to try his best in a shit situation, instead, they get a list of what they did wrong. It's your failing. Every single time. You are considered to have failed. I just think we need to watch how we say things like that.

Is it some projection? Of course it is. All narratives are going to have some projection. But seriously, imagine yourself in a position where you get dealt a shit hand, you try, you are cut off, you never get to even finish your thought, and all people are talking about is how "he is jumping up and down on a mine" or how dumb what he is doing is. And you can say "Well we aren't talking to someone's face, this is just a fictional situation", but how much do you want to bet at least one person reading this thread has been put in a similar situation in the past?

(I will point out, that this isn't universal in a sense. There are definitely people who fall on the other end, but I've found that, especially in the more liberal, more "aware" groups, that sympathy for people dealing with mental issues gets so high, that people who are having to try and support those people are not given nearly as much sympathy.)

EDIT, some notes to point out what I mean:

1. It was 9 posts into this thread before someone expressed anything other than Dale being incompetent. And even that was just a mention of having "some" sympathy.
2. It was 11 posts in until someone actually said anything resembling that this was a difficult position he was put in, and even in that post the person describes things as "I still can't imagine how he could have reacted worse" (paraphrased).
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2018, 06:18 by Emperor Norton »
Logged

ckridge

  • Furry furrier
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #38 on: 19 Feb 2018, 06:16 »

We are a bunch of web comic fans discussing niceties of social behavior in an internet chat room. This is pretty much like a nest of naked mole rats discussing aerodynamics. None of us are likely to have any of this right.

That said, this sounds right to me:

I think it's more a case of Dale doing the classic thing of answering the question that's being asked rather than the question that's implied. I don't think that's his fault or that it's something he should be castigated for, it's just that the nature of the discussion is completely different to what he first thought so he's been taken off guard. In a perfect world he'd be in tune with what his partner's red flags are and spot when they are triggered, but even the most loving of couples aren't going to get that right all the time.

At a basic level, I don't think Marigold cares whether Dale thinks she's the cleverest or funniest. What matters to Marigold is whether Dale cares for her.

That nails it. The thing to say here is not whether, how, or in what respect Marigold is better or worse than Emily. The thing to say is that you like Marigold better than Emily. Then you say, not why you like her better, but how you like her better. You fuck saying it up completely, because you did not rehearse for this, but you reel forward blushing, sweating, and stammering, because your sweetie is suffering because of how she feels about you, and this is what you can do to help. With a little luck you get credit for having the right feelings though no ability to express them, and she feels better. What matters is that she should feel better. The whole concept here is that you care about how she feels.

I am coming down harder on Dale than on Marigold, because I have no idea how to be a good girlfriend but have studied on being a decent boyfriend. One reason he is messing up is because he can't quite believe that anyone would care about his feelings, and so is trying to speak of what is objectively the case. That is an easy mistake to make, but you don't have to make it.

You get an awful lot of second chances at this work, though. He can fix this if he thinks carefully what to do next.

Says the naked mole rat, speaking from his vast, Casanova-like experience of aerodynamics.
Logged

brightwings00

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #39 on: 19 Feb 2018, 06:22 »

Quote from: Emperor Norton
Here, let me explain more thoroughly by what I mean about a lack of sympathy for people who are having to deal with other people's mental issues (which I agree are self esteem issues are not necessarily pathological, but it is still on the list of things that we generally fall into this trap over)

=snip--no offence intended, just wanted to reply to the whole post=

Thing is (what I'd argue),

a) I honestly don't know if Marigold's putting Dale on the defensive so much as seeking validation. There's "So you like working with Emily, huh" and "What were you laughing about as I came in?", but that doesn't quite read to me as an accusation. I think if she was accusing him of cheating there would be a lot more of "How much time do you spend together?" and "You think she's pretty, huh? Tell me more". It looks like she wants reassurance, primarily, and when Dale doesn't provide it she storms off in a huff--which no, definitely not an ideal response, but, well, she feels hurt and upset, and if Dale's not allowed to be perfect than Marigold's allowed to not be perfect, too.

b) There is (depressingly often) a dynamic at play where people--guys, primarily--get away with being tactless or thoughtless or socially illiterate under the guise of "just being honest" or "I'm only being logical" or "oh, they're just like that", and other people--primarily girls--are expected to pick up the emotional labour. I don't think anyone expects Dale to be perfect at reading people's feelings, but I also kind of hope "don't your SO they're not as pretty/smart/nice/funny as x person" would be social literacy 101.
Logged

brightwings00

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 24
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #40 on: 19 Feb 2018, 06:24 »

That nails it. The thing to say here is not whether, how, or in what respect Marigold is better or worse than Emily. The thing to say is that you like Marigold better than Emily. Then you say, not why you like her better, but how you like her better. You fuck saying it up completely, because you did not rehearse for this, but you reel forward blushing, sweating, and stammering, because your sweetie is suffering because of how she feels about you, and this is what you can do to help. With a little luck you get credit for having the right feelings though no ability to express them, and she feels better. What matters is that she should feel better. The whole concept here is that you care about how she feels.

That's the nicest thing I've ever heard a naked mole rat say.  :-)
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #41 on: 19 Feb 2018, 06:43 »

Quote from: Emperor Norton
Here, let me explain more thoroughly by what I mean about a lack of sympathy for people who are having to deal with other people's mental issues (which I agree are self esteem issues are not necessarily pathological, but it is still on the list of things that we generally fall into this trap over)

=snip--no offence intended, just wanted to reply to the whole post=

Thing is (what I'd argue),

a) I honestly don't know if Marigold's putting Dale on the defensive so much as seeking validation. There's "So you like working with Emily, huh" and "What were you laughing about as I came in?", but that doesn't quite read to me as an accusation. I think if she was accusing him of cheating there would be a lot more of "How much time do you spend together?" and "You think she's pretty, huh? Tell me more". It looks like she wants reassurance, primarily, and when Dale doesn't provide it she storms off in a huff--which no, definitely not an ideal response, but, well, she feels hurt and upset, and if Dale's not allowed to be perfect than Marigold's allowed to not be perfect, too.

b) There is (depressingly often) a dynamic at play where people--guys, primarily--get away with being tactless or thoughtless or socially illiterate under the guise of "just being honest" or "I'm only being logical" or "oh, they're just like that", and other people--primarily girls--are expected to pick up the emotional labour. I don't think anyone expects Dale to be perfect at reading people's feelings, but I also kind of hope "don't your SO they're not as pretty/smart/nice/funny as x person" would be social literacy 101.

A second note, in combination of it being 9 posts before anything other than Dale is incompetent being posted in this thread: When the comic was posted that showed that Marigold was clearly jealous because Dale was having fun with a coworker, the first post had 0 accusations against Marigold, and the second post included both sympathy for Marigold in the situation and sympathy for Dale. Marigold is irrationally jealous = sympathy, Dale doesn't react perfectly = post after post about how incompetent he is.

And bringing gender into it muddies the water a lot more. A man with low self-esteem who reacts to their girlfriend enjoying the company of a male coworker with irrational jealousy would be considered literally dangerous. (There is also a lot to say about men having been culturally indoctrinated to bottle up their issues, solve every problem, and to try and never be a burden to their significant other with their emotions).

And again: The only area where he actually confirmed what she said was Emily's intelligence, which is in the level of literal super genius. He said they were both funny in different ways. The comment on prettier was in air quotes, wasn't taking it as a given that it was the case, and he never even finished his sentence so we have no idea what he was going to say. And again, she put him in the situation of having to respond to it, as even not acknowledging she said it is a response, which is an incredibly hard situation to be in.

Also a note on the whole burden of emotional labor: Everyone is talking about what Dale needs to do to fix this. Why is this being put solely on him to fix?
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2018, 07:12 by Emperor Norton »
Logged

SpanielBear

  • Pneumatic ratchet pants
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #42 on: 19 Feb 2018, 07:12 »

I specifically said that Marigold has to put in work to fix this.

I also think that in a lot of cases (and most definately mine, a naked mole-rat as romantically aerodynamic as a concrete donkey) the reason people focus on what Dale should have said is because we have all been there, and have spent quite a lot of time since then replaying that moment over in our heads going "I wish I'd said x". So when you see someone else falling down that rabbit hole, you watch through your fingers and go "Oh Dale... sweety, no. This is going to end sooo badly".

'Cause the other thing to bear in mind is that Dale also has the easier job when it comes to self-examination after the fact (easier, not easy). He just has a conversation to reflect on, and to think "well maybe she meant this". Marigold is going to have to recognise that her emotions and self-esteem issues are causing huge problems for her, before she can start to move beyond them. We're talking a major shake-up of her world view, which is a pretty big task. It's also a pretty specific problem- lots of people will be where Dale is, not as many will be where Marigold is. And if they are, a) they may, like her, not realise it or b) its not the kind of problem that one can point out how to fix in a pithy forum post.

You are right that men get pressured to always appear emotionally strong, and showing vulnerability is seen as weakness, that's true. But I don't think it's unbalanced to note that Dale's response, while honest, wasn't the one Marigold wanted to hear. That really isn't Dale's fault, but it's still the case that there are ways to navigate the conversation that wouldn't have resulted in Marigold exploding. My point about Dale's emotional literacy, or lack of it, is that I don't think he intended to make Marigold upset but due to misreading the situation he did anyway.

As a final point, I can't stress enough that I don't think Dale is a bad dude. He's still as decent a guy now as he was last week. Marigold has been sitting on her self-esteem issues for *years*, and been using physical intimacy with Dale as a sticking plaster at best. This is her problem. Dale is well within his rights to say "fuck it" to the whole thing because he doesn't have to put up with her issues. That's a fair choice, and he deserves credit if he sticks around for the hard part. But if Dale wants to be supportive (which I think he does), there are things that will help and things that wont. Learning which is which is his job.
« Last Edit: 19 Feb 2018, 07:19 by SpanielBear »
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #43 on: 19 Feb 2018, 07:18 »

I think that the idea that there was necessarily a way he could have navigated it that wouldn't have led to her exploding is assuming things we will never know. She was ready to explode before he even realized there was a problem.

If he had just expressed his feelings for her, or had just started listing things he liked about her, she could have exploded because she assumed he was avoiding the commenting directly on what she said because he DID think she was prettier, funnier, smarter.

If he told her he thought she was prettier, smarter, and funnier, Marigold could have exploded because she assumes he is lying to her.

The idea that there was a right answer is an assumption. She was already angry, and angry people don't tend to even listen to what people are saying. I'm not sold on the idea that there was something he could have said that would have made the situation turn out better.
Logged

SpanielBear

  • Pneumatic ratchet pants
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #44 on: 19 Feb 2018, 07:23 »

The idea that there was a right answer is an assumption. She was already angry, and angry people don't tend to even listen to what people are saying. I'm not sold on the idea that there was something he could have said that would have made the situation turn out better.

Fair enough. It's true to say that there may not have been a good answer. But I do think that in the list of possible answers the one he gave, even incomplete, was particularly ill-adapted for the environment and thus would probably not have succeeded.
Logged

Dal Gurak

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #45 on: 19 Feb 2018, 07:50 »

I guess for me, it's just weird to quantify things like attractiveness and humour and intelligence, where it's like everything's on a scale and you can measure it. It'd be like saying "this apple is obviously better than this orange", only every single person on Earth is a different kind of fruit.

It might be easier to think in terms of cars rather than fruit - that's always helped me with these things.  Different models, brands, options, parts; but also, different reasons for being built in the first place.  This one is made to be safe and careful - this one is flashy and pretty and fast - this one is made for working hard.  On the one hand it's still hard to compare in a lot of cases - whether the big pickup or the little compact is better depends on what you want out of the vehicle.  But on the other, yes, you can judge overall quality.  Better ones will cost more, but pay too little and it'll be something broken down that will need tons of maintenance.  Some of them aren't fit for the road in any way and will never be driven.  And some, while not objectively better than others in a measurable way, will always be popular just because there's something about them that people really like.  And none of this is bad.  It's not pretty for people like me who fall into the 'junkheap' category, but overall it's pretty accurate on how people handle these things.  Consider when someone has a bad vehicle but paints it, does some superficial work, and lies about it in order to sell it just long enough to get the buyer stuck with it. 

Anyway, probably beating the metaphor to death, but when asked "Why didn't you buy Car X instead of Car Y?" the answer hopefully is "Because I didn't want Car X"  It's a good make, nothing wrong with it, but it's not what you wanted.  Doesn't have to be a logical reason behind it or a set of numbers - there can be, but it can be as simple as "This is the one I like."
Logged

HiFranc

  • Cthulhu f'tagn
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 534
  • On a night out, October 2013
    • My LiveJournal page
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #46 on: 19 Feb 2018, 09:16 »

Dale, here's a slightly better approach:
http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2010/05/13/0164-tipping-point/
Logged
Francisco

NemesisDancer

  • Balloon animal serial killer
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 95
  • :3
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #47 on: 19 Feb 2018, 10:40 »

Firstly, Marigold's face in the second panel reminded me of Anne Bronte in this comic.

I'm in agreement with a lot of the points being made by Emperor Norton and SpanielBear; I don't think Dale's an "idiot" for upsetting Marigold, and that it's largely just his inexperience showing through. While a more confident partner may have appreciated his honesty, Marigold's lack of confidence means she's more likely to interpret Dale's favourable view of Emily as an indication that she herself is inferior. Having been in Dale's position before, I can sympathise with him, and I hope that both he and Marigold are able to get their points of view across to each other to avoid any misunderstandings.


I can't help but wonder if, normally they don't communicate much verbally at all. It's possible that their interactions are normally to playing games, watching (and critiquing) animé and sex. They've never really got to the point where they discuss feelings for each other, outside of reassuring each other that any doubts the other has are silly.

^ I think BenRG is definitely on to something with this interpretation - I had one or two relationships like this myself when I was younger (with people who were heavily into video games, similarly to Dale and Marigold, as it happens) - so I think their issues with communicating are largely down to inexperience, not just with romantic relationships but with interpersonal communication in general. Whether they're able to deal with their issues will depend on whether they're able to talk to each other on a more personal level as well as about interests they have in common.
Logged

Emperor Norton

  • I'm Randy! I'm eternal!
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 651
  • Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #48 on: 19 Feb 2018, 10:43 »

@HiFranc

Eh, it looks like a better approach because it was written to work.

Also, keep in mind that Dale wasn't actually allowed to finish what he was saying.

If the girl had cut him off after saying the bit in Panel 2 and walked off, would you still think it was a better approach? The exclamation marks indicate that he is raising his voice, and most of it sounds like an accusation of her being unfair to him. Without the 3rd panel to clean it up, it could definitely look a lot worse.
Logged

Tova

  • Methuselah's mentor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,102
  • You're not the only one, no.
Re: WCDT strips 3681 to 3685 (19-23 February 2018)
« Reply #49 on: 19 Feb 2018, 12:44 »

I think it's more a case of Dale doing the classic thing of answering the question that's being asked rather than the question that's implied.

I don't agree that he answered the question being asked, actually. All he did was reaffirm that, yes, Emily is smarter, prettier, and at least as funny. That's not answering the question, it's just reiterating all the reasons Marigold asked it.

Why wouldn't I be jealous?

Maybe he would have got there eventually, but to someone as insecure as Marigold, it would have sounded an awful lot like he was scrabbling for an answer.

Dale, here's a slightly better approach:
http://www.sandraandwoo.com/2010/05/13/0164-tipping-point/

Just the third panel, yes.

edited: for clarity
Logged
"There is no expedient to which a man will not resort to avoid the real labor of thinking." - Sir Joshua Reynolds (paraphrased)
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Up