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Favourite part of last week?

Clinton and Elliot getting to know each other
- 19 (37.3%)
Tall bread tales
- 3 (5.9%)
Sentient orbs of light
- 3 (5.9%)
Brun's happiness
- 11 (21.6%)
Brun's amusing obliviousness to Clinton's and Elliot's feelings
- 10 (19.6%)
I can't believe that you didn't mention ....
- 5 (9.8%)

Total Members Voted: 51


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Author Topic: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)  (Read 10938 times)

ckridge

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #150 on: 29 Mar 2018, 09:35 »

My nose has been broken and doesn't have that bump, but the bump is the conventional way to draw a broken nose. It might have been that guy who busted him in the face with a beer bottle.
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Scyne

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WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #151 on: 29 Mar 2018, 11:26 »

I really like this strip. It is both funny and bitterly ironic, with Clinton giving Elliot just what he wants in a form in which it is of no use to him.

The chance of a polyamorous relationship has dropped sharply, since both Clinton and Elliot are treating Elliot's crushing on both Brun and the unnamed cute guy as a dilemma, a choice between incompatible alternatives. If that's the way they think of it, they think of it that way.
...


I don’t think it has dropped that sharply. Hi I’m Ki, the non binary person. You may know me from my post last week begging for this to be a canonical “thruple.” (Is that a word?)

Anyway this is very close to how MY very own poly relationship started. The three of us were super awkward and we did not realize that this was actually an option so we started awkwardly bumbling around the idea for months. Now we have been in this relationship for years.

The hurdle that they have to overcome is communication. This is why I love this paring. None of them either know what they want or know how to express what they want. I see this going the route of Clinton running into another one of those “JUST FUCKING SAY WHAT YOU THINK” moments and he expresses emotion to Elliott and they start something but still both have a thing for Brun. That starts this whole thing of “am I a good person? I still like her...” and somehow they end up with Martin’s mom telling them just fucking talk about this shit for fuck’s sake and they kinda just explain how they feel to Brun after a long winded emotional adventure.

Brun is all “Oh, you want to date me. I’ve never had someone not suggest some explicit sexual act right from the get go. You two are nice. I kinda understand you. Ok I’ll date you both.”

And then I cry tears of joy. Queer joy.


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Scyne

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #152 on: 29 Mar 2018, 11:48 »

Oh an also I think it’s important to note that being poly does not mean just having group sex.

My husband is Ace and while we do the do do from time to time it’s not all about the sex between the three of us, it’s about the relationship. Being able to have a third party that cares deeply about both of you to say, for instance, “hey you were a dick about (blank) and that’s why they are mad at you” to prevent the usual cold shoulder that happens when you are afraid of making things worse. Sure you may have friends like the robots that help explain how stupid you are being Dale, but shit like that does not always happen, the bots did not HAVE to do what they did. Also depending on the friend they may only be invested in one of you and disregard the feelings of the other.

While that is one oddly specific example I think what I’m trying to say is I don’t realistically see them as a fuck puddle. Could it happen? Maybe over a long time. I mainly see them as going on dates, the three of them, and seeing movies, getting drunk together, sharing deodorant.

Not in a fetishized way... Brun is just a sweaty and likes the way they both smell.


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ckridge

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #153 on: 29 Mar 2018, 12:26 »

I have no dog in this fight except that I would particularly like to see Elliot happy. It's not good when the ones who take care of other people can't take care of themselves, and it's not good when anyone is paralyzed by fear. A polyamorous relationship of some sort seems the simplest way to make everyone happy, so I would like to see that. They might not be that way inclined, is all.

From little bits of hints on Jeph's Instagram and Twitter, I think he gets characters by drawing them. After he has drawn them for a while, he begins to get an idea of who they are, and then this idea unfolds as they appear in the strip. If this is correct, he is not free to drop them into relationships just because it would make him or us happy, or because it would be politically useful, or because it would make plotting easier. I suspect that the part of his imagination that makes people is semi-autonomous, and that he would force it at the peril of having it shut down.

What he is free to do, apparently, is to tease us indefinitely with the possibility of relationships, and to torment characters indefinitely by dramatic delay of relationships. Like some dom romance novelist, he provokes shipping at the same time he forbids it.
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awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #154 on: 29 Mar 2018, 13:12 »

From little bits of hints on Jeph's Instagram and Twitter, I think he gets characters by drawing them. After he has drawn them for a while, he begins to get an idea of who they are, and then this idea unfolds as they appear in the strip.
That stands to reason. Unless he had the entire continuum already written up in a 42-volume boxed set of novels, he kind of has to write the story as he goes. Obviously, he has a general idea of where things are headed, but I know from experience that you can put something on the page and then look at it and say "wow, I didn't expect that", and things change. Even in fiction, the future is always in motion. The characters - just as real people - are always changing and maturing, and occasionally they surprise even the people who know them the best.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #155 on: 29 Mar 2018, 14:36 »






...Which are that they seem to hug all the time, and are standing close as well. So the conclusion is that they just say that because it's me and they don't like me...

I'll give you my personal take here: I have trouble with people standing close to me, but after some time, when I know someone very well and am familiar with their behavior, have had time to get used to the growing proximity, it starts being fine and nice.
I think a lot of people actually work like that and I am just a bit more sensitive in the beginning.
In general I think you cannot conclude from this information that they don't like you. This is an often seen error in judgement; explaining someones behaviour as against you, while it is just reactive to their own feelings. It could simply be that they are not used to you in this way yet. You haven't slowly grown from further to closer, and to them, it's just like you are suddenly jumping the gun. Like you would talk softly before and suddenly shout: that is quite disconcerting.

I've seen people flirting in a similar fashion like Brun did (being that close), and the consent seemed implied, no one asks permission to flirt first.

Actually people do, by using body language. e.g. You make a slight inclination into their direction and you see if people start backing up a little, stay or come closer. Coming closer is the 'permission' thing. It's like asking "is this okay?" and a "yes". After that you keep notice if they are comfortable and when there is discomfort, you ask if everything is okay. If this is difficult, you can in general help yourself by just asking sooner :)
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #156 on: 29 Mar 2018, 16:04 »

None of them has their own robot companion to advise them.  Momo could come along and play Mary Worth but there's no really natural way for her to come on the scene. Claire could bring her library boss to the bar. Tai might size up the situation correctly.
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Scyne

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #157 on: 29 Mar 2018, 18:16 »

I have no dog in this fight except that I would particularly like to see Elliot happy. It's not good when the ones who take care of other people can't take care of themselves, and it's not good when anyone is paralyzed by fear. A polyamorous relationship of some sort seems the simplest way to make everyone happy, so I would like to see that. They might not be that way inclined, is all.

...

What [Jeph] is free to do, apparently, is to tease us indefinitely with the possibility of relationships, and to torment characters indefinitely by dramatic delay of relationships. Like some dom romance novelist, he provokes shipping at the same time he forbids it.

Yeah you are totes right. I also don’t think you have no word to put in in this fight, if we could even call it a fight. You have some very good points. It’s good keep and open mind, but also consider what we know as fact as well.


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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #158 on: 29 Mar 2018, 18:49 »

I'm trying to find that bit of advice Pintsize gives Martin about going in without expectations, as it seems like it would be the appropriate response for all of the 'I hope'/'I want' comments here.

EDIT: Found the comic.
Seems I misremembered  his advice. Not so much clearing one's mind of expectations to help avoid dissappointment but instead to avoided clouded judgement. Both are good advice tough.
« Last Edit: 29 Mar 2018, 19:04 by Gyrre »
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #159 on: 29 Mar 2018, 19:11 »

So I would like to project all over Clinton for a bit. I consider myself "mostly" straight but I'm fairly sure that any outside observer probably views me as straight without a "mostly" to modify it (including family/friends). I've only dated men and we don't tend to talk about crushes in my social circles much. So until I hear clearly from Clinton himself, I will not rule out the possibility that he might be open to dating Elliot, even if he is (in general) more likely to be attracted to women.

I don't think Elliot will ask Clinton out though as I think Elliot is too shy. Instead I feel like this arc is heading towards Clinton asking Elliot out - not immediately, but down the track. First he has to connect Elliot's crush to himself and then there might be some soul searching over whether he (Clinton) is interested in men as well as women. But finally Clinton decides he would like to ask Elliot out.

I can see various possibilities for Clinton getting a clue about Elliot's feelings:
1) Talking about this evening the next day with Claire and Marten and one of them lets slip the idea Marten had.
2) Brun comes into the scene and misinterprets Clinton hugging Elliot - and sorting out the misunderstanding leads to realisations
3) Clinton is pondering Elliot's sentence at a later time and has a light bulb moment along the lines of "Wait, Elliot said please don't hug me at work - does that mean he wouldn't mind outside of work? Am I the guy he thinks is really cute?

But if I am wrong about this and this arc is leading to something involving all three of them (a triad or a V ), that would also be good.


When you say you've only dated men, are you saying you'd be open to dating a woman? How do your circumstances relate to the possibility of Clinton being open to dating a guy?
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #160 on: 29 Mar 2018, 19:18 »


I'm a stocky 5'5" (65cm) and 226 lbs (~102.5 kg), so the estimate feels like it lines up to me.

Any tall guys with broad shoulders want to weigh in this?

The weight sounds about right; I was talking more about the body fat.

EDIT to avoid doublepost: wow, Clinton came really close to outing Claire there.  If Elliot becomes a member of their circle, he may well connect the dots.  (...well, maybe not him, but someone else in his position might.)  Maybe he should keep her in mind next time he decides to get drunk outside private gatherings.
« Last Edit: 29 Mar 2018, 20:21 by Near Lurker »
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War Sparrow

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #161 on: 29 Mar 2018, 20:30 »

So, I will admit, usually Clinton irritates me.

But this super supportive, "all are friends!" thing? I am here for it.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #162 on: 29 Mar 2018, 21:17 »

Smooooth Elliot
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #163 on: 29 Mar 2018, 21:37 »

I hope for one of those 'pancake-morning' awakenings for Eliot after this night... They seem pretty much connected to the Augustus clan.
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jesslc

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #164 on: 29 Mar 2018, 21:54 »

So I would like to project all over Clinton for a bit. I consider myself "mostly" straight but I'm fairly sure that any outside observer probably views me as straight without a "mostly" to modify it (including family/friends). I've only dated men and we don't tend to talk about crushes in my social circles much. So until I hear clearly from Clinton himself, I will not rule out the possibility that he might be open to dating Elliot, even if he is (in general) more likely to be attracted to women.

I don't think Elliot will ask Clinton out though as I think Elliot is too shy. Instead I feel like this arc is heading towards Clinton asking Elliot out - not immediately, but down the track. First he has to connect Elliot's crush to himself and then there might be some soul searching over whether he (Clinton) is interested in men as well as women. But finally Clinton decides he would like to ask Elliot out.

I can see various possibilities for Clinton getting a clue about Elliot's feelings:
1) Talking about this evening the next day with Claire and Marten and one of them lets slip the idea Marten had.
2) Brun comes into the scene and misinterprets Clinton hugging Elliot - and sorting out the misunderstanding leads to realisations
3) Clinton is pondering Elliot's sentence at a later time and has a light bulb moment along the lines of "Wait, Elliot said please don't hug me at work - does that mean he wouldn't mind outside of work? Am I the guy he thinks is really cute?

But if I am wrong about this and this arc is leading to something involving all three of them (a triad or a V ), that would also be good.


When you say you've only dated men, are you saying you'd be open to dating a woman? How do your circumstances relate to the possibility of Clinton being open to dating a guy?
I was explaining why family, friends and other outside observers would think I'm straight, whereas I consider myself only "mostly" straight. They can't see the thoughts inside my head, they only see the past relationships I've had. While I definitely have more crushes on men, sometimes I have crushes on women too. (And yes, I would be open to dating a woman). The reason I included it in my post was because lots of people have being claiming that Clinton is not into guys - and I was trying to say you can't be certain about that based on what we've seen of Clinton.

 And looking at today's comic - I was right. He is open to the possibility of dating a guy. :)
« Last Edit: 29 Mar 2018, 22:05 by jesslc »
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #165 on: 29 Mar 2018, 21:58 »

I hope for one of those 'pancake-morning' awakenings for Eliot after this night... They seem pretty much connected to the Augustus clan.
I think Clinton is the one who is due for a "pancake morning awakening". He is drunk, whereas Elliot is not.
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brasca

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #166 on: 29 Mar 2018, 22:36 »

"Pisstracted" is a good term to describe someone so drunk they forgot they had to urinate. 
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jesslc

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #167 on: 29 Mar 2018, 23:13 »

Quote from: Near Lurker
wow, Clinton came really close to outing Claire there.  If Elliot becomes a member of their circle, he may well connect the dots.  (...well, maybe not him, but someone else in his position might.)  Maybe he should keep her in mind next time he decides to get drunk outside private gatherings.
Well I'm not trans so feel free to take what I say with a pinch of salt...

I think the way he paused in the sentence indicates that he was keeping her in mind and searching for what he could say. He didn't misgender her and personally I don't think what he actually said is risky. (But I will defer to any trans people who want to weigh in)

Personally I think that someone hearing Clinton's comments would just assume that his sister is bisexual and she has discussed that with Clinton a few times. (Including maybe some conversations along the lines of "Don't be so rigid in your thinking bro! I also thought I only liked the opposite sex before I met [insert name here]"). If I overheard their conversation without knowing Claire, that's the conclusion I would jump to.

You shouldn't out someone as bi without their consent either but I will cut Clinton a bit of slack because Elliot has already shared that he is bi - clearly Elliot is not going to be biased against people who are bi. Also someone jumping to the conclusion that Claire is bi (incorrectly or correctly) is far less likely to be risky for her than someone jumping to the conclusion that she is a trans woman.

So, YMMV - but I believe Clinton is keeping his sister's safety in mind.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #168 on: 30 Mar 2018, 00:38 »

That's one thing about drinking copious amounts of alcohol: You may find yourself revealing truths that you would never normally discuss, either for reasons of personal insecurity or because, in the end, it isn't your place to discuss them. It also apparently makes Clinton a ranting drunk, it seems.

That said, I really admire Clinton's reasons for not wanting to approach Brun romantically. For all it is sort of stripping her of agency a tiny little, I can admire that he does not want to cheapen a genuine act of noble charity by making it look, no matter how indirectly, like a cynical attempt at pulling a girl (much as Renee basically accused him of doing). I also admire the fact that, in the end, he doesn't really address her apparent non-neuronormative behaviour in any way. It's mostly because he doesn't want to appear the creep.

Meanwhile, Clinton fails to read body language. Panel 4 is as close to Elliott non-verbally telling Clinton that he is his crush as we're going to get.
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chris73

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #169 on: 30 Mar 2018, 03:01 »

"I mean shes super hot" I see Clintons got those beer goggles firmly on
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #170 on: 30 Mar 2018, 03:17 »

Super "sweet"??   :-D
OH yeah - I suspect Clinton is more attracted to guys than he thinks...

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ckridge

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #171 on: 30 Mar 2018, 03:41 »

It would appear that Clinton is something much more uncommon than a bisexual polyamorist who is open to threesomes. He is an actual good guy. He isn't trying to exploit having had a chance to help Brun, and he isn't competing with Elliot for her affections, because he likes Elliot.  He is an actual good guy in a gawky, awkward, drunken way, but then, he is only just barely old enough to be in that bar.
« Last Edit: 30 Mar 2018, 07:20 by ckridge »
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #172 on: 30 Mar 2018, 06:03 »

Clinton seems to be the new Marten (or at least fulfilling some of the angsty relationshippy role).
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #173 on: 30 Mar 2018, 07:03 »

"I mean shes super hot" I see Clintons got those beer goggles firmly on

Global Moderator Comment I strongly suggest you have another read of the rules. Comments like this are unacceptable.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #174 on: 30 Mar 2018, 07:04 »

We are forgetting the most important thing about this entire story-line.

If Clinton actually gets in a relationship with someone, Claire is going to literally EXPLODE from excitement.  :claireface:
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ckridge

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #175 on: 30 Mar 2018, 07:05 »

Quote from: Near Lurker
wow, Clinton came really close to outing Claire there.  If Elliot becomes a member of their circle, he may well connect the dots.  (...well, maybe not him, but someone else in his position might.)  Maybe he should keep her in mind next time he decides to get drunk outside private gatherings.

I don't see how that sentence can be read as anything other than that his sister taught him a lot about being open to who you really are. Even in the context of the conversation, it could perfectly well mean that his sister follows him around the house saying "Clinton! You should be more open to who you really are! If you are gay, that's OK!" If Elliot ever meets Claire, he is likely to find this perfectly plausible.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #176 on: 30 Mar 2018, 07:13 »

It would appear that Clinton is something much more uncommon than a bisexual polyamorist who is open to threesomes. He is an actual good guy. He isn't trying to exploit having had a chance to help Brun, and he isn't competing with Elliot for her affections because he likes Elliot.  He is an actual good guy in a gawky, awkward, drunken way, but then, he is only just barely old enough to be in that bar.
Agreed.  Under that veneer of geekiness he's approaching Dale levels of fundamental decency.  But then, it appears he's the youngest adult member of the cast, so it's natural that he's slowly maturing before our eyes (you just have to watch real close).   

I don't recall Clinton ever meeting Sam.  That might be good for some comic relief since he'd be her step-brother-in-law, sort of.  Maybe she can slip a frog down the back of his shirt at a family picnic this summer.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #177 on: 30 Mar 2018, 07:30 »

wow, Clinton came really close to outing Claire there.  If Elliot becomes a member of their circle, he may well connect the dots.  (...well, maybe not him, but someone else in his position might.)  Maybe he should keep her in mind next time he decides to get drunk outside private gatherings.

Weighing in on this as a trans person, I don't think he did? I mean, you might be able to extrapolate that she's queer from the statement- or that she's just a very open person. Of course, to someone who already knows the Claire is trans, it's going to be obvious what he means. To someone who doesn't... Eh. Not so much. There's no reference to how she taught him to be true to himself, so it could potentially be anything from her being trans, as she is, to her making him watch a bunch of true to yourself cartoons when they were kids. Even drunk, I don't think he's too close to outing her.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #178 on: 30 Mar 2018, 09:22 »

"I mean shes super hot" I see Clintons got those beer goggles firmly on

*scratches head*

Friend, you do know that different people have different definitions of what constitutes "super hot", right?

Here's Clinton stone cold sober stating he finds Brun very attractive. Enough so that it triggers his 'inner caveman instincts'.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #179 on: 30 Mar 2018, 11:34 »

Well, Clinton was technically correct at saying she's super hot...

But the beer goggles comment was a bit much.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #180 on: 30 Mar 2018, 12:30 »

Faye and Renee are doubles: loyal if difficult friends, intrusive, prickly, pushy, mouthy. Faye is wounded, Renee is not.

Bubbles and Elliot are doubles: big scary-looking people, skilled at violence, hard on the outside, sweet on the inside, afraid of rejection. Bubbles is wounded, Elliot is not.

Any more?
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #181 on: 30 Mar 2018, 15:11 »

wow, Clinton came really close to outing Claire there.  If Elliot becomes a member of their circle, he may well connect the dots.  (...well, maybe not him, but someone else in his position might.)  Maybe he should keep her in mind next time he decides to get drunk outside private gatherings.

Weighing in on this as a trans person, I don't think he did? I mean, you might be able to extrapolate that she's queer from the statement- or that she's just a very open person. Of course, to someone who already knows the Claire is trans, it's going to be obvious what he means. To someone who doesn't... Eh. Not so much. There's no reference to how she taught him to be true to himself, so it could potentially be anything from her being trans, as she is, to her making him watch a bunch of true to yourself cartoons when they were kids. Even drunk, I don't think he's too close to outing her.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting the comment, but I don't think Near Lurker meant that Clinton actually said anything that almost outed Claire, but rather that he almost said it. It appears that he started to say something, but the ellipsis in panel 3 indicates that Clinton stopped himself from saying anything that might give her away. Clinton is extremely protective of his sister, and even when he's drunk, he is careful to maintain her privacy.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #182 on: 30 Mar 2018, 15:15 »

Faye and Renee are doubles: loyal if difficult friends, intrusive, prickly, pushy, mouthy. Faye is wounded, Renee is not.

Bubbles and Elliot are doubles: big scary-looking people, skilled at violence, hard on the outside, sweet on the inside, afraid of rejection. Bubbles is wounded, Elliot is not.
I must qibble. 

We know Faye and Bubbles are wounded, but we know little to nothing about Renee's and Elloit's backstories.  Each may or may not have experienced emotionally crippling traumas their own.  That's why I don't permanently attach a Certified Asshole badge to Renee no matter how often she seems to earn it.

(Elliot, OTOH, couldn't qualify for an asshole badge if he had a PhD in douchenozzlery and aced the state board exams.)
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #183 on: 30 Mar 2018, 17:07 »

It is true that we don't have backstory on either of the ones I am calling unwounded.

That's why I don't permanently attach a Certified Asshole badge to Renee no matter how often she seems to earn it.

Renee's a yenta, is all: pushy, busybodied, gossiping, in everyone's business all the time, and the first person to call if you are in a jam. I have a theory that she is hated, not because she crashes across boundaries, but because she is female, unwounded, capable, and crashes across boundaries. Angus dancing triumphantly in nothing but a purple condom outside Faye's door in Marten's own apartment, when Marten has lusted in vain after Faye, passes unnoticed because Angus is a guy. Hannelore walking in and out of Faye's and Marten's apartment at will passes unnoticed because Hannelore is wounded. Faye punching and saying mean things is unnoticed because Faye is wounded. Renee acting like everyone else while unwounded and female produces sudden shock that boundaries are being crossed. It is not like she is big and dangerous like Elliot or Bubbles. She is capable, is all. Capable women aren't dangerous, they are just capable. It is unjust and unfair to condemn them for acting like everyone else.  You don't have to like them, but that doesn't mean they are any worse than the next person.

I don't think that the crashing across boundaries is incidental or trivial either. Someone upthread points out correctly that much of the comedy in the strip runs off people crashing through boundaries, but that's not its only function. One of the strip's concerns is how you act when you live where all different kinds of people mix together. No one's village mores apply, because no one is in their home village anymore, and none of the village mores were designed for situations like these anyway. Instead, you rely on very basic courtesy, recently improvised rules of thumb, sincere good will, and apologies. QC is a comedy of bad manners because it is concerned with how you act when you are inevitably going to have bad manners sometimes. Clinton just made a gross social blunder by embracing Elliot and telling him to try his luck with the cute guy, but it will be OK because it was done good-heartedly. Renee blunders by overprotecting and micromanaging Brun's life, but it will be OK because it is done out of sincere concern. They all blunder, realize, apologize, and try again. It's how things work there.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #184 on: 30 Mar 2018, 17:36 »

It honestly surprises me when I see hate on Faye or Renee. Slapstick and and tsundere-adjacent behavior is such a mainstay of, at least, the media I consume that a lot of what they do sails right by me. Renee annoys me slightly but no more than that, and Faye is mostly alright in my book.

I don't act like that in real life, though. As far as I can estimate, tsundere-adjacent behavior is unlikely to be acceptable in real life; this isn't counting good-natured friendly trolling. I can't think of anyone I know personally or through meatspace culture that pulls it off, anyway. And if behavior like that is a viable rl archetype, it's not something I can possibly pull off; it's difficult enough to stay in favor even when I try to be overly obsequious.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #185 on: 30 Mar 2018, 17:59 »

I presume that those times that absolutely everyone seems unreasonably irritable are times I am blundering across boundaries or otherwise acting like a dick. I would like to think I do this as entertainingly as people in stories, but it doesn't seem likely.

I like Renee a lot. She tells Elliot right out that she finds him attractive and when he is completely unmoved, sucks it right up. Elliot and Bubbles should both take lessons from her.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #186 on: 30 Mar 2018, 18:20 »

It is true that we don't have backstory on either of the ones I am calling unwounded.

Renee's a yenta, is all: pushy, busybodied, gossiping, in everyone's business all the time, and the first person to call if you are in a jam. I have a theory that she is hated, not because she crashes across boundaries, but because she is female, unwounded, capable, and crashes across boundaries. Angus dancing triumphantly in nothing but a purple condom outside Faye's door in Marten's own apartment, when Marten has lusted in vain after Faye, passes unnoticed because Angus is a guy. Hannelore walking in and out of Faye's and Marten's apartment at will passes unnoticed because Hannelore is wounded. Faye punching and saying mean things is unnoticed because Faye is wounded. Renee acting like everyone else while unwounded and female produces sudden shock that boundaries are being crossed. It is not like she is big and dangerous like Elliot or Bubbles. She is capable, is all. Capable women aren't dangerous, they are just capable. It is unjust and unfair to condemn them for acting like everyone else.  You don't have to like them, but that doesn't mean they are any worse than the next person.

I don't think that the crashing across boundaries is incidental or trivial either. Someone upthread points out correctly that much of the comedy in the strip runs off people crashing through boundaries, but that's not its only function. One of the strip's concerns is how you act when you live where all different kinds of people mix together. No one's village mores apply, because no one is in their home village anymore, and none of the village mores were designed for situations like these anyway. Instead, you rely on very basic courtesy, recently improvised rules of thumb, sincere good will, and apologies. QC is a comedy of bad manners because it is concerned with how you act when you are inevitably going to have bad manners sometimes. Clinton just made a gross social blunder by embracing Elliot and telling him to try his luck with the cute guy, but it will be OK because it was done good-heartedly. Renee blunders by overprotecting and micromanaging Brun's life, but it will be OK because it is done out of sincere concern. They all blunder, realize, apologize, and try again. It's how things work there.

What? Do we even read the same comic? lol. The only person who rival's Renee's assholeish behavior is Faye who HAS been called on it, at least here in the forums - even as a main character. Also, Clinton hugging Elliot wasn't a gross social blunder??

  It has nothing to do with some weird vendetta against 'capable women'.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #187 on: 30 Mar 2018, 18:56 »

What? Do we even read the same comic? lol. The only person who rival's Renee's assholeish behavior is Faye who HAS been called on it, at least here in the forums - even as a main character.
Sorry, I don't see it. I thought I might be missing something, so I went back and re-read all the bits with Renee in them, but I just don't see her behaviour as that of an asshole. She's very overprotective of Brun, and despite her outgoing nature, she's almost as socially awkward as Brun. She wants her friends to be safe and happy, and she gets overly excited about trying to make that happen, but that makes her annoying, not an asshole.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #188 on: 30 Mar 2018, 19:23 »

What? Do we even read the same comic? lol. The only person who rival's Renee's assholeish behavior is Faye who HAS been called on it, at least here in the forums - even as a main character.
Sorry, I don't see it. I thought I might be missing something, so I went back and re-read all the bits with Renee in them, but I just don't see her behaviour as that of an asshole. She's very overprotective of Brun, and despite her outgoing nature, she's almost as socially awkward as Brun. She wants her friends to be safe and happy, and she gets overly excited about trying to make that happen, but that makes her annoying, not an asshole.

My main point was that in the forums, Faye's asshole-ish (like hitting people and saying mean things) behavior has been discussed so it def. isn't people having a problem with how "capable" Renee is and targeting her specifically. Some people just like different and dislike different characters.

I personally think she's a toxic friend who is condescending and that she sexually harassed Elliot. I also just don't like her which I will fully admit. I happen to like Dora a lot - and Dora is arguably the most capable woman in the comic. 
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #189 on: 30 Mar 2018, 19:28 »

Since you said "arguably" I'll take the opening to suggest Bubbles instead. But your point stands.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #190 on: 30 Mar 2018, 19:38 »

I'd introduce you to my mother for some better context, but I'm pretty sure she'd get herself and me (by virtue of association) kicked off of the forums in about a day.

Renée is a hell of a lot like my mother right down to the belittling (just liberal instead of conservative).

EDIT: Either that or I'm just reading too much into her character. But the similarities still hit awfully close to home.
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awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #191 on: 30 Mar 2018, 20:42 »

Either that or I'm just reading too much into her character. But the similarities still hit awfully close to home.
I think you may have nailed it. We really haven't seen a lot of Renee's personality in the comic. The few traits we have seen may be the same as those in a real person you know (e.g. your mother), but that doesn't mean that Renee's whole personality is the same. I just think it's a little early to make that kind of call with her.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #192 on: 30 Mar 2018, 21:03 »

Since you said "arguably" I'll take the opening to suggest Bubbles instead. But your point stands.

Bubbles is actually another great example of what I was talking about - a capable and well-liked female who is not held in contempt for being capable.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #193 on: 31 Mar 2018, 06:26 »

Quote from: Gyrre
But the similarities still hit awfully close to home.

Which happens a lot with a lot of people. It's a compliment to Jeph's characterization (and a complication for the moderators) that his characters often remind people strongly of someone in their own lives.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #194 on: 31 Mar 2018, 13:15 »

Do people really think physically threatening a stranger over the phone isn't asshole behavior?

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #195 on: 31 Mar 2018, 17:48 »

In real life, it clearly is the act of a rude and possibly dangerous person. In a strip that oscillates between realism and slapstick? Harder to tell.

I would avoid someone in reality who acted like Renee and maybe warn others away.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #196 on: 31 Mar 2018, 17:58 »

I agree with this. "I will bust you up if you hurt this person that I care for deeply," is very much a running trope in QC. It's not just Renee that's done that. If you hate Renee for this, there must be a list of female cast members you feel the same way about.
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awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #197 on: 31 Mar 2018, 18:38 »

Do people really think physically threatening a stranger over the phone isn't asshole behavior?
Considering that her threatening was in the act of protecting her best friend, who was in a very vulnerable position at the time? No, I don't think it was asshole at all. If I had been the total stranger in that position (and I have been exactly that in the past), I would not have been the least bit offended.


It's unfortunate, but society, as a whole, is so fucked up that it is not only not unusual, but it's expected that someone would tend to mistrust a total stranger who goes out of their way to help someone they've never even met before. Just like Renee did, people assume that such a good samaritan must have some ulterior motive. I never cease to be amazed when people don't think the worst when I go out of my way to help girls who hardly know me, especially when those girls happen to be young enough to be my own children. And I certainly wouldn't think anyone was an asshole if they did think the worst. And just like Clinton, I take pride in proving that people had no reason to worry.


Yeah, I know I tend to give people the benefit of a doubt - sometimes to my own detriment - but I'm just not convinced yet that Renee is as horrible as people are making her out to be.
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #198 on: 31 Mar 2018, 19:06 »

I'm with you.

The famous, "Ding Dong the Witch Is Dead" comic has done a lot to shape that view in many people's minds.
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Re: WCDT strips 3706-3710 (26th to 30th March 2018)
« Reply #199 on: 31 Mar 2018, 19:30 »

I'm with you.

The famous, "Ding Dong the Witch Is Dead" comic has done a lot to shape that view in many people's minds.
I have to admit, I forgot about that.
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