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Poll

What do you want to see wrapped up first?

Just what are Faye and Bubbles to each other?
- 31 (42.5%)
Will Roko ever find that intimate companion she wants?
- 9 (12.3%)
Will Melon be drawn into the core cast?
- 3 (4.1%)
When will Hannelore and Winslow return home?
- 5 (6.8%)
Will Dora need a new employee, if so, who?
- 0 (0%)
Is there anything left to develop with Marten and Claire?
- 3 (4.1%)
Just how will the Brun-Clinton-Elliott triangle resolve itself?
- 22 (30.1%)
Other (please specify in comment)
- 0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 73


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Author Topic: (CW/TW: Abuse) WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)  (Read 48108 times)

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #200 on: 03 May 2018, 12:50 »

There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........
It’s DAR by Erika Moen. I remember the ending from Tumblr. https://www.darcomic.com
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #201 on: 03 May 2018, 14:08 »

Which actresses would do the voice of Faye and Bubbles if this was an animated series? I was thinking about this earlier and I'd like to hear some people's ideas.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #202 on: 03 May 2018, 14:59 »

Faye: Marty, I think I'm in love with Bubbles.
Marten: Oh, okay.
Faye: Okay...?
Marten: (goes to front desk, picks up a densely scribbled piece of paper, gets phone out) Claire? Yeah, it's me. Who is... Tortura? Oh, Steve's weird Russian ex? Oh. Okay. She won the pool... wait a sec. Faye, did you talk to Bubbles about this yet?
Faye: N-no...
Marten (to Claire): Not yet, no. Still counts though, right? ...she specified Euros, huh? Okay, I'll go to the bank later.
Faye: what the fuuuu...
Marten: Never mind, Faye. Go talk to Bubbles. You two have some catching up to do. (To Claire) Honey, stop squeeing... I'm at work...
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #203 on: 03 May 2018, 15:06 »

Which actresses would do the voice of Faye and Bubbles if this was an animated series? I was thinking about this earlier and I'd like to hear some people's ideas.

There's a thread on this topic. It's around here somewhere. It might be a bit dusty... *digs aimlessly for a a few moments*

Ah, here we are.

QC the Animated Show - Voice Cast
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #204 on: 03 May 2018, 19:41 »

You know, I winced when first reading this comic, but honestly Faye does respond to feeling vulnerable with violence, and she's hella emotionally vulnerable right now, so I don't think anything else would make sense for the character.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #205 on: 03 May 2018, 19:47 »

It's a long time coming and we've seen it slowly develop. Something which I had advocated for back when the Faybles shippers started posting their ship support in the forums. It makes it more believable for a character like Faye whom up until Tuesday  hasn't had any indication of being romantically interested in the same sex. And, it's quite a relief that Jeph took this route instead of the 'I'm suddenly a lesbian' route webcomics like Spinnerette have taken in the past.
There are also people who genuinely experience their attraction changing over time. While Faye might find that Bubbles is more of an "exception" for her, it's also possible that going forward she begins to notice attraction to other women. In my experience, and in the experience of a number of others I know, it can also work that you need your moment of revelation to look back on your past thoughts and actions and be like, "Ooooohhh, I was being gay." And often others wouldn't have noticed either.

My position is that it doesn't make more or less sense for Faye to go on to identify herself as a lesbian, or as bisexual, or queer, pansexual, straight, anything, really. Now, what could be best in terms of writing is different. But any of it could make sense and be believable, based on what I've seen.

On a different note, I hope that people who put down shipping recognize that they're putting down an interest of people's that can be completely harmless. If this forum isn't the place for it, if people would rather not read things from it, that's all fine. But for a lot of people, shipping is just a fun thing, which can be undertaken in a playful manner, or a more serious manner depending on the person and ship. I find it interesting when people are like, "All shipping turns into x" or even "most shippers are like y," because those interpretations are very often different from my own. I ship things that I could actually see happening, like Faye and Bubbles, and random characters that I think could be good for each other, and in a more joking manner, characters who have no reason to be shipped. It's a fun way to enjoy media for me. I recognize that the last two approaches to shipping especially aren't fitting for this forum, but I also don't think they need to be put down.
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chris73

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #206 on: 03 May 2018, 20:58 »

Panel 4 is why I just can't warm to Faye or even care about any of her problems, shes still just a bully.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #207 on: 03 May 2018, 21:32 »

Quote from: Morituri
I object to the gleeful leaping-to-conclusions that ignores who the characters are. I object to the negation or deliberate defiance of the plot elements and character traits that the author has spent hard work building, so that he can tell the story of the characters struggling with these difficulties.  Jumping to HAPPILY EVER AFTER! without paying attention to the story still in progress is ignoring the author's hard work.

Global Moderator Comment What Morituri objected to here is close to what the moderators try to discourage. "Ignores who the characters are" is exemplified by the orientation-incompatible shipping.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #208 on: 03 May 2018, 21:41 »

Buildings resonate around the frequencies of earthquake oscillations. Smart engineers de-tune the buildings to minimize how resonant they are.

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #209 on: 03 May 2018, 22:29 »

So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, but what if Faye really shoots down the things that have happened between her and Bubbles as her body experiencing a glitch? She said it herself: She hasn't been physical with someone in a long time, and there is this strong bond of mutual trust and friendship between her and Bubbles… (Platonic) Intimacy even. Faye's body may just have short circuited and this made her act on a certain craving…

Just going through possibilities here…
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #210 on: 03 May 2018, 23:03 »

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.
To be fair, I didn't really see that as having anything to do with Momo being an AI, per se. Faye treated almost everyone with little regard for how she would feel if the situation were reversed. Even Raven called her on it.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #211 on: 03 May 2018, 23:09 »

Well taken point but I'd draw a distinction between being mean to someone and objectifying them.

For example, Faye ridiculed Marigold but never tried to look up her skirt.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #212 on: 03 May 2018, 23:12 »

Panel 4 is why I just can't warm to Faye or even care about any of her problems, shes still just a bully.

I think I understand how you feel, but my feelings towards Faye have been more... ambiguous? (Sure. I'll go with ambiguous for want of a better word). I have always read her punches to fall into the category of "cartoonish non-reality". Unreal elements of hyperbole that are included and accepted as a means to convey character or tell a story that would otherwise not come across as well. Elliot crushing Clinton's hand is resolved without consequence. Pintsize is repeatedly dented or crushed or filled with cake batter only to be fine in the next strip. Punchbot is routinely ripped to pieces. Sometimes Faye punches people.

But I also feel strongly about characters I identify with. I did cringe when Faye intimidated Claire over the hair in the drain. I like Claire. I identify with Claire. When I saw Faye bullying her, I wanted to jump into the comic and stand up for her. So I can absolutely see resistance to the idea that Faye's bullying should get a pass under cartoon logic.

So reading her character more in terms of actual human bullying, what should we make of her punches? Marten and Angus didn't seem to object; at least they didn't object to the point of limiting their contact with her. Should we read that as a sign that her punches are not harmful? That they are accepted? That shouldn't necessarily make it OK. Not everyone will stand up to an abuser. But should we judge her actions in light of deontological or teleological theories of morality? Is her behavior inherently wrong due to its great capacity to do harm? Or is it acceptable because it is acceptable to the objects of her actions and appears to do no harm? Should we recognize that her bullying behavior is rooted in emotional trauma and celebrate her efforts to resolve it? Or do we condemn harmful behavior regardless of its motivations?

For myself, I take a teleological approach to morality. The morality of an action is found in its consequences, not in any inherent moral property. If the objects of her bullying are not harmed and do not perceive harm, then her actions are not immoral. I also don't think her behavior should get a pass because of her past trauma. Her actions are ultimately her own responsibility and she is responsible for resolving that trauma. Any harm that comes of her actions is similarly her responsibility and she must accept the consequences. But I'd love to hear your take on her behavior, Chris.

Now, all that said, I still can't see her as "just a bully". She has shown herself to be incredibly sensitive, loving and supportive. Even going back as far as when Marten and Dora first started dating, Faye was willing to put aside her feelings and be a good friend to them both. She was hurt, but she talked it out with Dora and fully supported their relationship from then on (unless I'm forgetting something. Could be the case. It was a long time ago). She's been incredible with Bubbles; giving her the emotional support she needs to feel safe connecting emotionally with others and allowing her to do so in her own time rather than forcing her. She's a complex human being. She has very significant flaws that absolutely should not be ignored, but that doesn't make her problems less valid or worth caring about.
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #213 on: 03 May 2018, 23:14 »

Poor Faye is really confused and upset, isn't she? As has already been said, even the hint that she might be actually attracted to Bubbles is enough to trigger her old defensive violence response! I don't think that it is as much unwelcome as it puts her ill-at-ease. She's sort of found a comfort zone, a bit like Marten has a few times; she's understandably unhappy to be forced out of this.

I can see another reason why Faye may find her reaction unwelcome. Let's say for a moment that she's just feeling an 'itch'. If she misinterprets it and does something that she doesn't ultimately want to follow up, then she'll hurt Bubbles. That's something that she wants to avoid at all costs.

FWIW, I don't think Faye is sure right now what she's feeling. She needs to sort that out before she does anything else. In order to do that, she has to accept all the realities that she's been brushing off. That's going to be hard. As I said yesterday, it's going to be especially hard given how badly all of Faye's romantic relationships to date seem to have foundered; she might be afraid of those feelings and desires now.

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.

Regarding objectifying AIs, I've said this before but it deserves to be said again: Up to comparatively recently, AnthroPCs were objects both in a legal sense and how they've been viewed by society as a whole. So, Faye isn't really unusual in her reactions to them.

It is my view that a major part of the entire Faye and Bubbles arc has been Faye becoming to see the person behind the plastic, something that she's never had to do before because her limited interactions with AIs, even with Pintsize, only reinforced her 'not really people' reactions to them. Being in continual close contact with Bubbles and the other synthetics at the Skate Park for day after day for many months allowed her mind to start perceiving the person rather than the machinery and, over time, she almost forgot she was a synthetic.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #214 on: 03 May 2018, 23:16 »

So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, but what if Faye really shoots down the things that have happened between her and Bubbles as her body experiencing a glitch? She said it herself: She hasn't been physical with someone in a long time, and there is this strong bond of mutual trust and friendship between her and Bubbles… (Platonic) Intimacy even. Faye's body may just have short circuited and this made her act on a certain craving…

Just going through possibilities here…

I think she could have rationalized that way earlier on. At this point there are too many Tetris pieces for even Faye to ignore and they've fallen into place. No, she's stuck with this, even with a human's capability to rationalize things.

(Hey, is that a difference between organics and AIs? I can't remember a synthetic ever coming up with plausible-sounding reasons for a decision that was really something else. Pintsize doesn't even explain his decisions. Even Roko is covering up her bread fetish, not fooling herself about it).
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awgiedawgie

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #215 on: 03 May 2018, 23:18 »

Well taken point but I'd draw a distinction between being mean to someone and objectifying them.

For example, Faye ridiculed Marigold but never tried to look up her skirt.
Touché.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #216 on: 03 May 2018, 23:21 »

I find it interesting when people are like, "All shipping turns into x" or even "most shippers are like y," because those interpretations are very often different from my own.

It's horrible how people try to put down harmless activities of others by claiming, without evidence, that any instance of such activity, without fail, ends in [dire consequence x]. Even worse, when they make sweeping character-judgements of entire groups of people based on nothing more than their 'discomfort' at being confronted with a harmless, fun activity.

Maybe it will help calm your rattled nerves when I tell you that searches on this forum for the phrases "All shipping turns into" and "most shippers are like" turn up one (relevant) result each. Your own post.

Surely that is merely a result of your paraphrasing the despicable effluent of the undoubtedly numerous instances of incitement in a manner ill-suited to be found by search-engines. Luckily, there's an easy remedy: You can simply quote some examples to us. Two, maybe three examples for each transgression should suffice to convince any sceptic of the stunning scale of the problem and unmask the poster's vitriol.

We shouldn't suffer the reckless slander of our fellow forumites, should we?
« Last Edit: 03 May 2018, 23:28 by Case »
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #217 on: 03 May 2018, 23:21 »

(Hey, is that a difference between organics and AIs? I can't remember a synthetic ever coming up with plausible-sounding reasons for a decision that was really something else. Pintsize doesn't even explain his decisions. Even Roko is covering up her bread fetish, not fooling herself about it).

I think that, for AIs, the only element of their mind that is 'subconscious' is in their sensory responses and chassis management. Roko defined her 'ticklish' response to her foot being examined as 'psychosomatic', remember? Her subconscious was actually responding to a sensory input that might not even have physical reality or at least be nowhere near as intense.

All their decision-making and thought processes seems to be 'out in front' even if, as in Bubbles case, they are able to perceive that they are irrational and feel frustration that they are unable to break their ingrained behaviour patterns.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #218 on: 03 May 2018, 23:26 »

Quote from: BenRG
over time, she almost forgot she was a synthetic.

That's real progress but it's still in the problem range. Imagine a human telling another human "When I look at you I don't see black". Aside from the zinger "Oh really? Have you turned in your driver's license?", it carries a whiff of implication that treating the person as an equal requires not noticing their ethnicity.

As you point out, AIs were not legally recognized as our equals until recently. Faye could still be dealing with prejudice mutating through all the forms it takes as humans grow out of racism toward other organics.

"I almost forgot you're a synthetic."
"I would have thought it too obvious to overlook."
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #219 on: 03 May 2018, 23:44 »

I think I understand how you feel, but my feelings towards Faye have been more... ambiguous? (Sure. I'll go with ambiguous for want of a better word).

Ambivalent?

I think I understand what you mean.

I sympathise with her even while I recognise that punching people is bad, mmmkay?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #220 on: 04 May 2018, 00:08 »

Buildings resonate around the frequencies of earthquake oscillations. Smart engineers de-tune the buildings to minimize how resonant they are.

Faye treated Momo like an object twice that I can think of. There was tossing her in the air like a toy, and there was looking up her skirt.

Fundamentally, I agree with you. Her behavior towards Momo was very dehumanizing. Her presumptuousness was unacceptable.

But I also wonder about AI attitudes towards body autonomy.  From our experience with Momo, Winslow and May, changing bodies is almost like changing clothes for at least some AI. Though it seems Roko has a much stronger connection to her body. I remember Faye tossing Momo around being treated as a one-off background joke without Momo addressing it, but I don't remember her reaction to Faye looking up her skirt. Did Momo object?

I tend to think of human/AI relationships in terms of a line from Legion in Mass Effect 2. "No 2 species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." Treating AI with the same dignity and respect due to all sapient life is important, but we may have to learn new standards of what that dignity and respect looks like.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #221 on: 04 May 2018, 00:33 »

I didn't interpret Faye's interactions with Momo as being anything more than light hearted jokes, Faye doesn't come across as uncaring or mean to AI, at worst you could call it
 slightly ignorant but nothing malicious.

It is difficult to process a feeling of attraction towards the same gender especially if you believed you were hetero for your whole life, you question every moment and conversation and wonder if you were being nice or being gay. No wonder Faye tries to hide it behind a facade of not getting any in a while.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #222 on: 04 May 2018, 00:49 »

Probably just me, but Faye is looking more and more like Tilly over the last few days.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #223 on: 04 May 2018, 01:18 »

Panel 4 is why I just can't warm to Faye or even care about any of her problems, shes still just a bully.

I think I understand how you feel, but my feelings towards Faye have been more... ambiguous?

Hmm ok here we go, I guess I just don't understand certain things (sorry about how this comes across but it'd be easier in a bar) in this comic or indeed this message board. I see a lot of comics where female on male violence is generally treated somewhere between funny or well its bad but its not a big deal and I just have a real problem with that.

Sure violence can be funny but Fayes usually uses violence to threaten or shut down or just intimidate people and thats not funny and yet Faye seems to get a pass because she had a Traumatic Experience(TM) but her threatening, bullying behavior is still happening

Say that you think Tilly is a girl because she looks, talks, has the mannerisms, acts, dresses and has the interests of a girl and watch what happens yet someone punching other people and thats fine, apparantly

Yeah Faye has some good points but so do most abusers (my father certainly did) and I'm not sure how many years its been for Faye since her Traumatic Experience(TM) but as she says her own instinct is to punch (and Marten was already wincing in response to the blow) so for me that makes her a bully and as for Marten rwell he eminds me in certain ways of my own mother and in this instance thats not a good thing

Is it really a friendship where you have to worry about what you say because you'll get punched, no it isn't, Marten isn't Fayes friend hes her punching bag (emotionally and physically)




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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #224 on: 04 May 2018, 01:23 »

Imagine a human telling another human "When I look at you I don't see black". Aside from the zinger "Oh really? Have you turned in your driver's license?", it carries a whiff of implication that treating the person as an equal requires not noticing their ethnicity.
Interestingly enough, that's really close to how I see my friends. Sure, intellectually, I know some of them are black, some are Asian, etc., but for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking to them, I don't see their color. I see them as my friends, and as people. It's not a question of noticing their ethnicity, but rather of focusing on it. Most of the time, a person's race is almost entirely irrelevant. When you're hanging out with someone, or going to a concert, or the monster truck rally, or whatever, what difference does it really make what color skin your friends have? And in the few situations where one of my friends' race is a relevant detail, I have enough respect for them to treat it that way.


I feel like many AIs would love it if humans would occasionally forget that they are different, and simply treat them as ordinary people.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #225 on: 04 May 2018, 01:29 »

Yeah Faye has some good points but so do most abusers (my father certainly did) and I'm not sure how many years its been for Faye since her Traumatic Experience(TM) but as she says her own instinct is to punch (and Marten was already wincing in response to the blow) so for me that makes her a bully and as for Marten rwell he eminds me in certain ways of my own mother and in this instance thats not a good thing

Is it really a friendship where you have to worry about what you say because you'll get punched, no it isn't, Marten isn't Fayes friend hes her punching bag (emotionally and physically)

I think that the thing that Marten takes into account about Faye is that, at the time he first met her, she was seriously mentally ill. She had just recently been released from hospital after what was debatably a suicide attempt and ended up moving in with him after what was debatably another suicide attempt. Even now, at least two in-universe years later, she still has a mass of mental issues and is maybe six months down the road from a third suicide attempt and is under immense emotional strain.

I don't think that Marten knew just how badly messed up she was until The Talk around Strip 500. However, I think he was aware that she was fragile and damaged goods and acted appropriately. It's worth noting that most of Faye's violence was verbal and you can tell that she was visibly controlling herself the few times she physically lashed out. Marten would have had to have been some kind of fool not to have realised that there was a serious issue there and consciously chose to deal with it because (a) he was attracted to Faye and (b) he happens to be one of those guys who feels bound to help if he can.

Please also note that Faye realises that this behaviour is wrong and has frequently been shown (as she is today) going to almost ludicrous lengths to control her behaviour.

She isn't bad, she's hurting and it has induced many unhealthy and antisocial behaviour patterns but she is perceptibly trying to overcome them.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #226 on: 04 May 2018, 01:38 »


She isn't bad, she's hurting and it has induced many unhealthy and antisocial behaviour patterns but she is perceptibly trying to overcome them.

She may change sure but for as long as this comic has run (not sure of how many years it is in comic book time) she lashes out physically and is still threatening people, you only have to hit some people once (and shes punched Marten more than once) for them to be intimidated and shes also not above using that reputation on others (I'm thinking Claire)

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people



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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #227 on: 04 May 2018, 02:03 »

Hopefully, today's comic doesn't summarize everything she really understood, or else things haven't changed that much...
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #228 on: 04 May 2018, 02:13 »

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I think that may be very debatable. Verbal and psychological violence and abuse can be every bit as ugly - and are much less likely to be noticed or taken seriously by others.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #229 on: 04 May 2018, 02:31 »

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I think that may be very debatable. Verbal and psychological violence and abuse can be every bit as ugly - and are much less likely to be noticed or taken seriously by others.

If you had to choose between being physically abused or verbally abused and the physical abuse went on for as long as the verbal abuse what would you choose?

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #230 on: 04 May 2018, 02:35 »

Okay, Chris? Let's set aside all of the strawmen here and get down to cases:

1) This is about Marten, not me, not you and not anyone else;

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #231 on: 04 May 2018, 02:45 »

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word
I respectfully disagree with you. You have a very understandable personal bias against physical abuse, and I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing that. But verbal abuse can cause just as much psychological damage, and on a much more frequent basis. And verbal abuse can go entirely unnoticed by outsiders, so it tends to go on for a much longer time span. And possibly the worst part about it is that the abuser may not even realize that they are doing it unless someone points it out. I know a father whose 8-year-old son looked at him and said "Dad, you scare me." He was floored. He had no idea the effect he was having on his children up until then.


Don't get me wrong, I also think that some people are way too sensitive about certain subjects, but that has nothing to do with any kind of abuse.


That notwithstanding, I agree with you that Faye's treatment of Marten is infuriating. Sure, she has issues, but even she herself admitted that those are no excuse for behaving the way she does. She calls him her best friend, and yet routinely treated him worse than the bastard offspring of the neighbor's half-breed mutt. I am kind of a real-life Marten - I'll go out of my way to help people that others won't give the time of day - but there's no way in hell I would have put up with her hitting me more than once. Granted, I am bigger and stronger than Marten, so I could actually stop her if she swung at me. But even without the wherewithal to physically defend himself, Marten could still have given her a simple ultimatum - either knock it off, or find a new home.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #232 on: 04 May 2018, 02:47 »

I'm staying out of this, but I did want to request that posters do be careful when quoting, because if posts end up under the wrong peoples' names, the conversation gets a bit difficult to follow. Thanks!
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #233 on: 04 May 2018, 02:50 »

Okay, Chris? Let's set aside all of the strawmen here and get down to cases:

1) This is about Marten, not me, not you and not anyone else;

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

Thats the damn problem, she is abusive, physically abusive and no one calls her out on it, ever and shes never had to face up to the repercussions of her violence

Maybe if there was a storyline where she addresses her violence and understands what that violence does to others I might start to think of her differently but at the moment she lives a life where she can punch anyone she likes, threaten anyone she likes and generally be intimidating to whoever she likes and everything's hunky dory
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #234 on: 04 May 2018, 02:57 »

Let me just ignore everything in this thread.

It's obvious why Faye's freaking out. The nature of Bubbles' back rubs has been established before:claireface:
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #235 on: 04 May 2018, 02:58 »

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word
I respectfully disagree with you. You have a very understandable personal bias against physical abuse, and I don't want to sound like I'm trivializing that. But verbal abuse can cause just as much psychological damage, and on a much more frequent basis. And verbal abuse can go entirely unnoticed by outsiders, so it tends to go on for a much longer time span. And possibly the worst part about it is that the abuser may not even realize that they are doing it unless someone points it out. I know a father whose 8-year-old son looked at him and said "Dad, you scare me." He was floored. He had no idea the effect he was having on his children up until then.


Don't get me wrong, I also think that some people are way too sensitive about certain subjects, but that has nothing to do with any kind of abuse.


That notwithstanding, I agree with you that Faye's treatment of Marten is infuriating. Sure, she has issues, but even she herself admitted that those are no excuse for behaving the way she does. She calls him her best friend, and yet routinely treated him worse than the bastard offspring of the neighbor's half-breed mutt. I am kind of a real-life Marten - I'll go out of my way to help people that others won't give the time of day - but there's no way in hell I would have put up with her hitting me more than once. Granted, I am bigger and stronger than Marten, so I could actually stop her if she swung at me. But even without the wherewithal to physically defend himself, Marten could still have given her a simple ultimatum - either knock it off, or find a new home.

Fair enough, we all have our trigger points. After reading your post it just occurred that maybe whats bothering is the minimization of Fayes actions towards to Marten, has he ever actually told her to not hit him?

That and when Faye started intimidating Claire (the bit about marking her territory and the hair in the shower) and Marten didn't say anything, didn't step into protect Claire or anything, that really bugged me
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #236 on: 04 May 2018, 03:00 »

Hahaha, women hurting men, so funny
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #237 on: 04 May 2018, 03:05 »

What are your intentions?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #238 on: 04 May 2018, 03:14 »

If you had to choose between being physically abused or verbally abused and the physical abuse went on for as long as the verbal abuse what would you choose?

I'd rather not answer the question, as you usually don't get to choose. From my own experience, though, the physical violence has had much less long lasting impact.

...
Fair enough, we all have our trigger points. After reading your post it just occurred that maybe whats bothering is the minimization of Fayes actions towards to Marten, has he ever actually told her to not hit him?

That and when Faye started intimidating Claire (the bit about marking her territory and the hair in the shower) and Marten didn't say anything, didn't step into protect Claire or anything, that really bugged me

I can understand that. That's one of the points Marten needs to work on, standing up for himself, and others. In some of the comics, though, there is a very fine line between comedic hyperbole, and actual threats.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #239 on: 04 May 2018, 03:36 »

As I said, I can *see* why it may have happened. It's just a little jarring in my personal experience.
(I was a pro actor for many many years. And knew, met and was very close friends with a lot of gay guys, and lesbian women. But at no point did my love for them even think of developing into anything else. (And yes, I got offers!)   :)  )

Well ... your finding the experience of discovering that you're not as straight as you thought you were to be outside your experience is pretty much par for the course for someone who is exactly as straight as he thought he was, no?  :-D

I'm trying my best to parse that... But I think I'm failing!!  :)

Shortly before Jeph cliff-hangered the Faybles-arc, when we were all getting in each others' hairs about the nature of Faye's feelings for Bubbles, the matter of Faye's age came up, too, and there were two fellow forumites who said that this was pretty much their experience of discovering they weren't done learning about their orientation ...

(IIRC, one said that she had mistaken her attraction to her then-friend-now-partner as 'merely finding her aesthetically pleasing', until the "Oh? Ohhh!"-moment. I can't speak from experience, but I find that entirely plausible)


Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is (in fact I'm sure I said it before) what I find most jarring about this is that it IS so far from my experience.
To me, Faye has always been shown as (for want of a better term) 'straight', and neither interested in women, nor robots in a sexual sense.
It's been suggested (I think?) that being surrounded by robots and people of other sexualities has led Faye to suddenly 'discover' this latent, Les/BI/Whichever/RoboSexuality.
All I've been saying is that in my experience, being surrounded and great friends with, and loving gay and lesbian people... Didn't do anything to 'my' sexuality in the slightest.

I get that people can be 'in denial' about their own sexuality and then have that sexuality come charging to the fore - (I heard that story a lot from some of my gay male friends) - but Faye has never been seen to be "In denial" about her sexuality, and this sudden shift just jars with me... as it's outside my own experience.

(PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT saying it is WRONG! Only that it's outwith my experience... and thus seems strange.)
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #240 on: 04 May 2018, 03:43 »

I'm so glad to read this!  It's good to know I'm not the only one who dosen't understand some peoples NEED to staple labels on other folks foreheads.  I read a line somewhere that goes "The heart wants what the heart wants"
which pretty much sums my feelings on this.  There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........

Almost the plot of Chasing Amy, right there!
(Love that movie!)
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #241 on: 04 May 2018, 04:44 »

RE: physical vs. emotional abuse, I think I get what Chris is saying and there is a willful ignoring of a very major facet of abuse because people want to express that they value the mind more than the body... which, okay but consider: 

Physical abuse is also emotional abuse. You are not going to get physically abused on any kind of regular basis and not develop trauma. The abuser will often use gas-lighting and apologizing and manipulation to keep you in the situation and to alleviate blame or guilt. It may be easier to get support but that doesn't make the abuse less severe. Just because there one specific emotional abuser that did more abuse than one specific physical abuser does not change the nature of that type of abuse.

TLDR: physical abuse can end your life  or maim you in addition to traumatize. Emotional abuse can traumatize you.
« Last Edit: 04 May 2018, 12:46 by snufflebottoms »
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #242 on: 04 May 2018, 04:50 »

Interestingly enough, that's really close to how I see my friends. Sure, intellectually, I know some of them are black, some are Asian, etc., but for all intents and purposes, when I'm talking to them, I don't see their color. I see them as my friends, and as people. It's not a question of noticing their ethnicity, but rather of focusing on it. Most of the time, a person's race is almost entirely irrelevant. When you're hanging out with someone, or going to a concert, or the monster truck rally, or whatever, what difference does it really make what color skin your friends have? And in the few situations where one of my friends' race is a relevant detail, I have enough respect for them to treat it that way. I feel like many AIs would love it if humans would occasionally forget that they are different, and simply treat them as ordinary people.

This, unfortunately, is white privilege in action. It's great to have a colourblind attitude towards life in principle, but the world is simply not yet a good enough place for that to be something we can all rely on, because that same colourblind attitude is also part of what props up the establishment.

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I cannot disagree with this strongly enough. While obviously it can be true in many cases, it absolutely isn't true in all cases. To answer your other question, I would absolutely rather be physically abused rather than emotionally abused even if the time periods were equivalent. Physical abuse obviously has an emotional hangover too, but if it's choosing between the two I know that physical violence has had way less an effect on me than the emotional abuse I have experienced. That's just me, but that's my whole point - you can't just blanket statement things like this.

Thats the damn problem, she is abusive, physically abusive and no one calls her out on it, ever and shes never had to face up to the repercussions of her violence

Maybe if there was a storyline where she addresses her violence and understands what that violence does to others I might start to think of her differently but at the moment she lives a life where she can punch anyone she likes, threaten anyone she likes and generally be intimidating to whoever she likes and everything's hunky dory

This is a legitimate thing to raise, however; Jeph was a lot less 'woke' for lack of a better term in the early days, and so Faye's early period of physical violence is something that's kind of been retconned a little into the outward expression of someone who's been through abuse. Or Jeph has used that as a Trojan horse to reel people into her story, I don't know. But this comic is the first time I've even seen her violent tendencies mentioned in a little while.


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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #243 on: 04 May 2018, 04:53 »

So, playing devil's advocate for a moment, but what if Faye really shoots down the things that have happened between her and Bubbles as her body experiencing a glitch? She said it herself: She hasn't been physical with someone in a long time, and there is this strong bond of mutual trust and friendship between her and Bubbles… (Platonic) Intimacy even. Faye's body may just have short circuited and this made her act on a certain craving…

Just going through possibilities here…

I think she could have rationalized that way earlier on. At this point there are too many Tetris pieces for even Faye to ignore and they've fallen into place. No, she's stuck with this, even with a human's capability to rationalize things.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean 'rationalize', I meant Faye giving the situation a good hard thinking and then conclude 'Nope, this isn't who I am or what I want.'

The chance of her going down that route may be small, I don't know, but it's there, isn't it?
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #244 on: 04 May 2018, 05:11 »

You know, the older I’ve gotten the more I’ve come to believe that these words we use to try to define people aren’t very useful. We invent terms like “heterosexual”, “homosexual”, “bisexual” and try to assign people to distinct categories based on those words. But those categories don’t really match up to the way the world actually works. People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, they love whoever they love, categories be damned. And I say this as someone who actually fits pretty neatly into that “heterosexual” box, but I see many people around me who don’t fit any of those boxes. The concepts seem pretty well-defined until you start looking at the boundaries between them, and you see that those boundaries are so fuzzy that they don’t really exist. And the solution is not to invent more and more categories for each possible shade of meaning, because that just emphasizes our differences when we should be focusing on our similarities.

I'm so glad to read this!  It's good to know I'm not the only one who dosen't understand some peoples NEED to staple labels on other folks foreheads.  I read a line somewhere that goes "The heart wants what the heart wants"
which pretty much sums my feelings on this.  There was (still is?) a webcomic artist who was absolutely positively a lesbian, and then she went to a WebComic convention in Great Britain, met a guy who was an artist, fell in love and eventually got married.  She got a lot of grief from some of the more militant members of her group, but didn't let that get to her (too much).  I wish I could remember her name, but I'm old and so was the drive I had all my old bookmarks on.  I think her name started with a D........

Googling your description comes up with Erika Moen of Oh Joy Sex Toy fame. She seems to be disliked by lesbians and other people for a bunch of other reasons, so it might be simplistic to say it was because she married a man. You could be talking about someone else though.

Sexuality is somewhat fluid, not a straitjacket. It's like a line of best fit, it's not a perfect description but it describes the trend. Descriptions of sexuality are a type of taxonomy, and taxonomy always has uncertain factors to it (see the species problem). That doesn't make it worthless or mean we shouldn't try to describe things. Categories are actually extremely useful and they are how we understand the world (though there are certainly dark sides, like us vs them thinking), and without them communication would be extremely difficult if not absolutely impossible. If we couldn't talk about trees, but instead had to describe one particular elm (and you can't describe it as an elm, because that's a category too) that exists in your neighbourhood (and neighbourhood and house are also categories), you'd just get bogged down. But it's useful to call it a tree, and an elm, and also to say that that particular type of elm tends to grow in your area, but there are other types of elm as well.

When it comes to sexuality, self-identification is key. There are a lot of different patterns of sexuality (and we love patterns) which are worth describing, but you'll never get a perfect read on a person without their input. You might for example think that someone is heterosexual, but they've actually always had attractions to people of their own gender but just haven't had an opportunity to date someone of that gender. Because sexuality is so much of an internal thing, it's not something you can categorise from an external view. That doesn't mean the labels are useless, you just shouldn't label other people's sexuality. It's still perfectly possible for people to be obtuse about their self-description and describe a common pattern in a way that nobody else uses.

(And, as noted above, your understanding of yourself can change over the course of your lifetime.)
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #245 on: 04 May 2018, 06:34 »

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

2) Marten DID respond; he flinched.  As noted by someone else here, that's one of the signs of emotional trauma to repeated and expected physical abuse.

3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #246 on: 04 May 2018, 06:37 »

Physical violence is worse than any spoken or written word yet some posters here are more concerned that some characters feelings might be hurt and seem to not care that there is someone in the cast physically assaulting people

I think that may be very debatable. Verbal and psychological violence and abuse can be every bit as ugly - and are much less likely to be noticed or taken seriously by others.

If you had to choose between being physically abused or verbally abused and the physical abuse went on for as long as the verbal abuse what would you choose?

I happen to have had the opportunity to compare. There's a thread about it in RELATE. The broken bone was not directly from violence but I was running at adrenaline speed from a violent situation. Surgery to put it back together, 6 weeks for it to heal, and 6-8 months of rehab after that.

I also had what was mostly verbal abuse in grade school, thought it was always clear that physical violence was behind it if I stood up for myself.

The verbal abuse went on longer so I am not answering your exact question.

The surgery and fracture recovery had features including losing sleep because of pain breaking through oxycodone. It was more recent, so should be fresher in my mind.

The bone that was broken into three pieces which will leave me with a reduced range of motion the rest of my life was the better of the two.

You ask an important question but it doesn't quite apply to Faye. She both insulted people and hit them hard enough to cause bruises.

Momo, btw, was NOT OK with the upskirt incident.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #247 on: 04 May 2018, 06:47 »

BTW, I have not seen a movement or even a posse to dismiss male victims of domestic violence. There's a lack of awareness, which is why they don't have enough shelters. Different problem.
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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #248 on: 04 May 2018, 07:45 »

2) Marten clearly didn't feel abused because, even if he wouldn't have responded, his various girlfriends certainly would have - Definitely Dora;

3) The fact that nothing ever came of it indicates that Faye's behaviour was never as threatening or as abusive as you perceive it to be.

End of story.

2) Marten DID respond; he flinched.  As noted by someone else here, that's one of the signs of emotional trauma to repeated and expected physical abuse.

3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!

The way 'SJW' has been appropriated absolutely boggles my mind.
I can't speak for liberals at large, but if you think the consensus on this forum is that domestic violence is fine as long as the victim isn't female, then you are astoundingly wide of the mark.

Anecdotally, I have never seen a single person fitting the SJW profile that has advocated the reinforcement of gender roles.

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Re: WCDT strips 3731-3735 (30th April to 4th May 2018)
« Reply #249 on: 04 May 2018, 10:41 »

2) Marten DID respond; he flinched.  As noted by someone else here, that's one of the signs of emotional trauma to repeated and expected physical abuse.

3) It's not perceived to be as threatening, because it's done by a woman, and therefore, according to the SJW enforced gender constructs, can't be threatening.  Something is only seen as bad or socially unacceptable when society tells you it's bad or socially unacceptable.  In other words, that idea that women can't be abusive or threatening is a social construct.

Woman hits man: Oh he must have done something to deserve it.
Man hits woman: How dare you ask if she did anything to deserve it, that's victim-blaming!

The only times I have ever seen "SJWs" resistant to arguments about violence against men by women, it has been when those arguments were raised as an objection to arguments about intimate partner violence against women. As though the existence of violence against men negates the problem of violence against women. It is a rejection of the "whataboutism" used to diminish the significance of an issue.

And society's failure to recognize intimate partner violence against men as a problem is not rooted in feminism or the broader social justice movement. The social justice argument is that violence against men is normalized by the perception that men are stronger than women and that being the victim of violence by a woman makes a man weak; that it is emasculating. That idea falls under "toxic masculinity" that the modern social justice movement seeks to end.
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