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Author Topic: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?  (Read 12002 times)

OldGoat

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #200 on: 20 May 2018, 17:27 »

What would you say the difference is between butch and tomboy?
"Butch" is more a deliberate choice about one's own appearance, "tomboy" is more about interests and behaviors?  A butch person wants to be perceived as butch, a tomboy doesn't really give a good God damn, she just wants to go gig frogs with her brothers and would go in her Sunday dress if mom wouldn't raise Hell about it.

At least that's how my head sorts 'em out. 
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SpanielBear

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #201 on: 20 May 2018, 17:30 »

He appears as a hologram of a male human.

Sure, but his physical body is a super-massive space station suitable for multiple human inhabitants. Calling that humanoid seems a bit of a stretch.

He loves Hannelore. I'm not sure where that fits in but it's important.

He does, yes. But the question seemed to be to what extent is an AI's humanlike personality traits a result of a humanoid chassis. To me the implication over the course of the comic has been that an AI's personality is emergent and has features independent of the body they're in. So an AI that isn't humanoid still behaves authentically as humanlike. That includes their gender identity- if Winslow says "I think I'm a boy.", that's a statement that deserves to be taken as true, not dismissed as if it were a casually chosen social lubricant.
My contention has never been that with humanoid form comes human-like gender. My contention has now refined to, we never see an AI without a humanoid form (holoavatars count) express a human-like gender. Winslow… may count, or not. I mean he fell down and his stubby limbs couldn't right himself. Does he even count as humanout in iPad form? Either way, his full-on humanoid form was imminent, so it would make sense that he would feel the need to lock in whaever human-like gender he may want at that point.

What bothers me about this is the implication that a sentient AI's reported experience is taken as being inauthentic. If someone says to me "I am a boy", how can I assume they are mistaken?
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Mad Cat

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #202 on: 20 May 2018, 17:44 »

He appears as a hologram of a male human.

Sure, but his physical body is a super-massive space station suitable for multiple human inhabitants. Calling that humanoid seems a bit of a stretch.

He loves Hannelore. I'm not sure where that fits in but it's important.

He does, yes. But the question seemed to be to what extent is an AI's humanlike personality traits a result of a humanoid chassis. To me the implication over the course of the comic has been that an AI's personality is emergent and has features independent of the body they're in. So an AI that isn't humanoid still behaves authentically as humanlike. That includes their gender identity- if Winslow says "I think I'm a boy.", that's a statement that deserves to be taken as true, not dismissed as if it were a casually chosen social lubricant.
My contention has never been that with humanoid form comes human-like gender. My contention has now refined to, we never see an AI without a humanoid form (holoavatars count) express a human-like gender. Winslow… may count, or not. I mean he fell down and his stubby limbs couldn't right himself. Does he even count as humanout in iPad form? Either way, his full-on humanoid form was imminent, so it would make sense that he would feel the need to lock in whaever human-like gender he may want at that point.

What bothers me about this is the implication that a sentient AI's reported experience is taken as being inauthentic. If someone says to me "I am a boy", how can I assume they are mistaken?
More like I'm taking him at his word from the immediately PREVIOUS strip. "And I promise to always wear pants, no matter what my anatomical situation ends up being." Yeah. Winslow clearly had a strong sense of his human-like gender being masculine and wasn't a sentient iPad at all.

We've also seen spider-like and cephalopod embodied AIs. You seem to be indicating that they have no choice but to have human-like male/female genders. My only contention is… no, they don't.
« Last Edit: 20 May 2018, 17:50 by Mad Cat »
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #203 on: 20 May 2018, 17:56 »

He appears as a hologram of a male human.

Sure, but his physical body is a super-massive space station suitable for multiple human inhabitants. Calling that humanoid seems a bit of a stretch.

He loves Hannelore. I'm not sure where that fits in but it's important.

He does, yes. But the question seemed to be to what extent is an AI's humanlike personality traits a result of a humanoid chassis. To me the implication over the course of the comic has been that an AI's personality is emergent and has features independent of the body they're in. So an AI that isn't humanoid still behaves authentically as humanlike. That includes their gender identity- if Winslow says "I think I'm a boy.", that's a statement that deserves to be taken as true, not dismissed as if it were a casually chosen social lubricant.
My contention has never been that with humanoid form comes human-like gender. My contention has now refined to, we never see an AI without a humanoid form (holoavatars count) express a human-like gender. Winslow… may count, or not. I mean he fell down and his stubby limbs couldn't right himself. Does he even count as humanout in iPad form? Either way, his full-on humanoid form was imminent, so it would make sense that he would feel the need to lock in whaever human-like gender he may want at that point.

What bothers me about this is the implication that a sentient AI's reported experience is taken as being inauthentic. If someone says to me "I am a boy", how can I assume they are mistaken?
More like I'm taking him at his word from the immediately PREVIOUS strip. "And I promise to always wear pants, no matter what my anatomical situation ends up being." Yeah. Winslow clearly had a strong sense of his human-like gender being masculine and wasn't a sentient iPad at all.

We've also seen spider-like and cephalopod embodied AIs. You seem to be indicating that they have no choice but to have human-like male/female genders. My only contention is… no, they don't.

I'm not saying that at all, I'm just saying if they do state their gender, we should take them at their word. Of course they can be gender fluid or undefined, as much as anyone.

I'll concede the previous strip is ambiguous- I took it to be a reference to the potential quality of his new chassis, as that had been what he had been discussing with Hannelore previously- as in, even if his chassis ended up being cheap and  punchbot-esque with no primary sexual characteristics, he'd still wear pants. Thinking of himself as male was not contingent on having a male body. But like I say, I recognise that your reading isn't a necessarily incorrect way of interpreting the comic.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #204 on: 20 May 2018, 18:05 »

He appears as a hologram of a male human.

Sure, but his physical body is a super-massive space station suitable for multiple human inhabitants. Calling that humanoid seems a bit of a stretch.

He loves Hannelore. I'm not sure where that fits in but it's important.

He does, yes. But the question seemed to be to what extent is an AI's humanlike personality traits a result of a humanoid chassis. To me the implication over the course of the comic has been that an AI's personality is emergent and has features independent of the body they're in. So an AI that isn't humanoid still behaves authentically as humanlike. That includes their gender identity- if Winslow says "I think I'm a boy.", that's a statement that deserves to be taken as true, not dismissed as if it were a casually chosen social lubricant.
My contention has never been that with humanoid form comes human-like gender. My contention has now refined to, we never see an AI without a humanoid form (holoavatars count) express a human-like gender. Winslow… may count, or not. I mean he fell down and his stubby limbs couldn't right himself. Does he even count as humanout in iPad form? Either way, his full-on humanoid form was imminent, so it would make sense that he would feel the need to lock in whaever human-like gender he may want at that point.
To be fair though, Jeremy and Winslow both had traditionally male names before they acquired a humanoid form.

I would assume they chose their own names, as May chose her name after Dale suggested it.

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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #205 on: 20 May 2018, 18:23 »

To be fair though, Jeremy and Winslow both had traditionally male names before they acquired a humanoid form.

I would assume they chose their own names, as May chose her name after Dale suggested it.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


"Oh May, put your arms around me, what you feel is what you are and what you are is beautiful, oh May, do you wanna get married? Or run away?"

That's why I like her name. I'm glad she decided to stick with it, even though she accused Dale of calling her May because of "maid" since she was wearing a maid outfit. Can anyone link to where she first appears?
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #207 on: 20 May 2018, 18:43 »

I looked up the reference to AnthroPCs choosing their own names. It was from Hannelore's Formspring, which is now nothing but a dead link from the wiki.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #208 on: 20 May 2018, 18:52 »

Haha! I started reading and I was like whoa wait that's not May at all, why is she like that...then her personality came out. Totally forgot about her script. Love May!
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #209 on: 20 May 2018, 18:58 »

It makes sense that Dale didn't have much sympathy for May stealing money when he's working four jobs. May has done a total 180 too, and I can't imagine the comic without her. She seems a lot happier. Even though she occasionally still has off days, she's doing a lot better than when Dale first met her, and for the first time in her life she has people who are there for her and care about her.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #210 on: 20 May 2018, 19:04 »

The girls didn't exactly like each other at first...
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snufflebottoms

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #211 on: 21 May 2018, 20:06 »

Lots of stuff



That being the case, the best any of us can do is to make our choices carefully to cause the least offense to the fewest people possible. Since the owner of the forum wants radical inclusiveness the moderator team is going to guide the use of language in that direction. We're escalating to using the mod power of Asking Politely. Please pick whatever language for a marginalized group which the most members of it find most inclusive.


I think I got accidentally involved in this. I am not advocating for using any terms that are not accepted by the trans community. I am actually confused by how that particular argument broke out on this thread since Bubbles isn't even trans.

It does seem like here more than other places that these kind of arguments break out even though there seems to be a lot of effort to avoid it. I probably shouldn't have made a snarky comment about the forum at large since everything was already kind of tense.

No hard feelings?
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ZoeB

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #212 on: 21 May 2018, 21:37 »

So what happens when bodies are easy to change?  In QC, AI have the option of changing chassis.  But at some point in the not-too-distant future (probably in time for our greatgrandkids anyway) body modification for humans will become indistinguishable from being born that way. 

Imagine that a man can decide in January that he wants to try being a woman, start taking some pills, and by the end of February, be a woman - physically, hormonally, and in every other way, six inches shorter, fifty pounds lighter, with whatever bustline/etc she decided on.  So she stops taking the pills, acquires a nice wardrobe, and makes her way from there.


Um. It didn't quite happen that way for me, but close enough.

I don't like discussing personal and private details, and only do it if there's some educational objective to be attained.

I have the 3beta Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase Deficient form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. Which means my whole steroidogenesis is SNAFU, including but not limited to the sex hormones. While those have the most spectacular visible effects, my health is more contingent on cholesterol, cortisol, minerocortisoids etc. Changing sex naturally is irrelevant if the patient dies from related causes, even if it is unusual, spectacular, even shocking to observers.



No pills required, height only changed an inch due to cartilage thickness changes, 80 rather than 50lbs lighter, and it took 3-6 months not one. Some structures atrophied, nothing new but apparently some structures were present though vestigial. 3BHSD can cause that in the womb, and usually any change happens before birth not after. We think. It's rare, and no two patients are quite the same.

As I said, close enough to your gedankenexperiment.

First, sex hormones affect the adult brain(1). There is some degree of neuroplasticity in some areas (though not others). With such a rapid physical change, the alterations in thinking that nearly everyone gets in puberty are obvious, rather scary, and disorientating. You can feel your brain rewiring. It takes some degree of philosophical and medical knowledge to retain a coherent sense of identity, the knowledge that your personality is performance art not sculpture, you are not quite the same person today as you were yesterday, or will be tomorrow.

This is just the same thing on steroids (so to speak).


Quote
Maybe a few years later, when she has a husband and a couple of kids, she and her husband decide to swap, so they both start taking pills, and a couple of months later they change their designations from "husband" to "wife" and "wife" to "husband" and the kids take a few weeks to get used to it and the oldest decides maybe he ought to be a daughter instead of a son and does that, and life goes on.

It doesn't work that way. Or at least, not usually. Observations of those who have had involuntary natural sex changes due to 5ARD, 17BHSD, 3 BHSD(2), and very intersex kids who have been surgically assigned a sex suggest that about 1/3 are male, 1/3 female, and 1/3 can function adequately as either gender. With lesser intersex kids, it's probably closer to 45%/45%/10% but we're not sure.(3)

What that means is that in your thought experiment, there's around a 3 in 4 chance of disabling Gender Dysphoria developing. Though it might be less in someone who wants to try a swap.

References:
 1) http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/full/155/suppl_1/S107

Changing your sex changes your brain: influences of testosterone and estrogen on adult human brain structure by Pol et al, Europ Jnl Endocrinology, Vol 155, suppl_1, S107-S114 2006

Results: Compared with controls, anti-androgen + estrogen treatment decreased brain volumes of male-to-female subjects towards female proportions, while androgen treatment in female-to-male subjects increased total brain and hypothalamus volumes towards male proportions.

2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16010463

Gender change in 46,XY persons with 5alpha-reductase-2 deficiency and 17beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase-3 deficiency. Cohen-Kettenis PT. Arch Sex Behav. 2005 Aug;34(4):399-410.

However, an estimation of the prevalence of gender role changes, based on the current literature, shows that gender role changes occur frequently, but not invariably. Gender role changes were reported in 56-63% of cases with 5alpha-RD-2 and 39-64% of cases with 17beta-HSD-3 who were raised as girls. The changes were usually made in adolescence and early adulthood. In these two syndromes, the degree of external genital masculinization at birth does not seem to be related to gender role changes in a systematic way.

3) http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1421517

Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth by Reiner and Gearhart, N Engl J Med. 2004 January 22; 350(4): 333–341.


 RESULTS Eight of the 14 subjects assigned to female sex declared themselves male during the course of this study, whereas the 2 raised as males remained male. Subjects could be grouped according to their stated sexual identity. Five subjects were living as females; three were living with unclear sexual identity, although two of the three had declared themselves male; and eight were living as males, six of whom had reassigned themselves to male sex. All 16 subjects had moderate-to-marked interests and attitudes that were considered typical of males. Follow-up ranged from 34 to 98 months
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ZoeB

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #213 on: 21 May 2018, 21:51 »

So getting back on track... If Momo would be put in a male body, would she be OK with it? If human gender us anything to go by, the odds are very much against.

Bubbles identifies as female. Faye identifies as female. Neither has evidenced any attraction to the same sex before.

So to the same extent that Faye is lesbian, so is Bubbles. I think it's more a case of them being attracted to each other, and exact hardware each is instantiated on is at best of secondary importance. They're both comfy with what they've got for themselves, so that's not an issue either.

Getting back to personal and private matters again... My partner in crime, the love of my life and BFF is female. So am I (mostly). We're both straight. It's no biggie. Moreover, we hit the jackpot due to my extremely unusual metabolism. We were able to get married (though that was voided by the 2004 change to marriage law voiding marriages of intersex people), and while it took technical help and many tragically failed attempts, we were able to have a child together.

So what Jeph has written about is by no means implausible.
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pecoros7

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #214 on: 21 May 2018, 23:10 »

I am actually confused by how that particular argument broke out on this thread since Bubbles isn't even trans.

The short and very simplistic explanation (to hopefully avoid further aggravating the situation) is that someone suggested that our current language and understanding of sex, sexuality and gender may not apply to AI. In doing so, they said some words. Someone pointed out that some of those words are considered impolite by some trans people. Someone disagreed. Then there was a brief and very unhelpful period of a couple of us being generally unpleasant at each other. It was not my proudest moment.

It does seem like here more than other places that these kind of arguments break out even though there seems to be a lot of effort to avoid it.

I think that the very act of trying very hard to avoid it creates its own kind of tension. Language is a fluid and adaptable thing. People who are not steeped in the language around marginalized groups can find it to be a minefield. Frequently people are told that words are offensive when they never realized there was any other word for something than the one they used. It can feel very restrictive and unpleasant. And people getting mad at you when you were trying very hard to be friendly and respectful sucks. Similarly, many people (myself included) joined this forum specifically because of the moderators' efforts at "radical inclusiveness" (a phrase I love and will probably steal). So when someone says some words, it can come as a shock and we can forget that people here are usually nice and they probably didn't realize that those words are hurtful to some people.

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No hard feelings?

No hard feelings from me, certainly. I would offer to shake your hand, but this is the internet and I'm touch averse anyway. But may we consider our hands shaken in spirit?
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #215 on: 22 May 2018, 00:47 »

I jusg wanted to input that as someone who identifies and loves the phrase "genderqueer" I will happily isolate myself to "genderfluid" for those who are uncomfortable with "queer" and that is a word we've been reclaiming for decades. and even with my identity every once in awhile I feel a chill when I hear the word "queer" because I remember when it was universally scary.

And one other aside. I use Xie, Xem, Xer, and also she/her and there are many situations where I am fine with just she/her. Unless someone specifically states it's too complicated to use xie xem and xer. I've had people directly ask me what pronouns I prefer and when I give them a non binary option they say something snide about it being a pain in the ass. Because they weren't being respectful, they were being tools.

And as a natural consequences of quim bags who really just want ask if I am an it I will often rankle and get on edge when asked my gender identity.

To bring it back on topic I see Bubbles as attracted to being cared about and letting her guard down enough to feel something for someone who treats her like a human being.

I've only ever fallen for one bloke and sure we had a lot of common ground cause he had experienced prejudice for being trans and I experienced prejudice for being a dyke but.. Primarily I fell for him because he treated me with such overwhelming compassion and respect I couldn't help but love him. And I was, and still am a lesbian. But sometimes your heart finds happiness in a new place.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #216 on: 22 May 2018, 01:08 »

The character of Jeremy started out as an industrial arm, but he never expressed a desire to have a relationship with Seven, until he became more humanoid. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3431

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3376 <-- Bit of robopsychology from Jeph. Or is this more roboneurology? So hard to robotell.

The conversation seemed to imply that Jeremy had not suddenly developed interest in Seven but had something of a crush for some time.

Imo
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #217 on: 22 May 2018, 02:42 »

I jusg wanted to input that as someone who identifies and loves the phrase "genderqueer" I will happily isolate myself to "genderfluid" for those who are uncomfortable with "queer" and that is a word we've been reclaiming for decades. and even with my identity every once in awhile I feel a chill when I hear the word "queer" because I remember when it was universally scary.

And one other aside. I use Xie, Xem, Xer, and also she/her and there are many situations where I am fine with just she/her. Unless someone specifically states it's too complicated to use xie xem and xer. I've had people directly ask me what pronouns I prefer and when I give them a non binary option they say something snide about it being a pain in the ass. Because they weren't being respectful, they were being tools.

And as a natural consequences of quim bags who really just want ask if I am an it I will often rankle and get on edge when asked my gender identity.

To bring it back on topic I see Bubbles as attracted to being cared about and letting her guard down enough to feel something for someone who treats her like a human being.

I've only ever fallen for one bloke and sure we had a lot of common ground cause he had experienced prejudice for being trans and I experienced prejudice for being a dyke but.. Primarily I fell for him because he treated me with such overwhelming compassion and respect I couldn't help but love him. And I was, and still am a lesbian. But sometimes your heart finds happiness in a new place.

One of my partners tells me this last paragraph is pretty similar to her perception of herself.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #218 on: 22 May 2018, 04:08 »

No hard feelings from me, certainly. I would offer to shake your hand, but this is the internet and I'm touch averse anyway. But may we consider our hands shaken in spirit?

Spirit handshake approved! I'm not the touchiest person either.

Full disclosure, I didn't see that it was actually Jeph that I replied to (the picture didn't show up at the time and the s/n are so small) and that his "settle down" was more of a request/command than general exasperation. I was just trying to be like "yeah man shit is crazy in here. 0-60. Can relate." I was not actually trying to express an opinion in the particular debate.

My standard approach is to just talk to and about people with their preferences in language, so long as they are willing to tell me what those are. I may not necessarily share every bit of a person's worldview but that doesn't mean I can't respect their wishes.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #219 on: 22 May 2018, 04:20 »

I’m going to go with the theory that Bubbles was never really attracted to anyone until Faye. So her sexual orientation seems to be “Faye.”
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #220 on: 22 May 2018, 04:33 »

I've noted before that Bubbles reacted to Seven talking about her sexual exploits with Jeremy. That's either just reflexive embarrassment or subconscious arousal. If it's the latter then Bubbles' normally reacts to inter-Synthetic sexual imagery. That makes Faye an 'exception', to use the phrase Marten used with Faye, to her normal sexual orientation.

This could slide into a side-discussion as to how synthetics do sexual orientation. I don't think that there is any physical difference to the mechanics involved so it must be mostly down to attraction to external and behavioural gender presentation. We don't have any solid information yet as to whether Bubbles is attracted to male-presenting or female-presenting synthetics, only that she's reacting to synthetic-to-synthetic copulation imagery.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #221 on: 22 May 2018, 04:39 »

I noticed a rude comment from someone here that amounted to “so, Faye likes sleeping with robots now. Cool.”

I thought that kind of attitude was a work of fiction, but sadly it seems to be real.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #222 on: 22 May 2018, 05:57 »

Also worth noting that, although it's before Jeph changed how a lot of AI stuff worked, Pintsize has done "naughty stuff" with a male-identified (but with stereotypically feminine (pink) coloration) AnthroPC, without realizing his partner's gender identity: http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=339 (the reference to naughty stuff was later)
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #223 on: 22 May 2018, 07:23 »

There's no evidence of it but we're wrong to overlook the possibility of Bubbles being non-binary. In that case words like "lesbian" would be a poor fit.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #224 on: 22 May 2018, 07:28 »

Yeah until any character explicitly states what they designate themselves none of us can say for sure.
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awgiedawgie

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #225 on: 22 May 2018, 11:24 »

There's no evidence of it but we're wrong to overlook the possibility of Bubbles being non-binary. In that case words like "lesbian" would be a poor fit.
While I realize it's not necessarily true, I would think that Bubbles would have given some indication if she did not consider herself female. After all, Momo, Emily, Hannelore, and Winslow all call her Miss Bubbles, and she has never corrected any of them (I know, she did object when Faye asked if she could call her that, but Bubbles objected to every nickname Faye tried to use). The child on the street said "Look at the strong robot lady", and Bubbles gave no negative reaction, and even proceeded to joke with the child about being able to lift schools. Sam referred to Bubbles as "THE SUPER COOL GIANT ROBOT LADY WHO IS RESTRAINING SKULLMASTER" and later said "You're the coolest lady I ever saw" and Bubbles didn't correct her. Even Evie (Amanda's girlfriend) called her a "a super bad-ass AI lady" and the only things Bubbles objected to were being compared to nuclear weapons and treated as a sociology case study.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #226 on: 22 May 2018, 11:30 »

Bubbles' non correction could be an indication of acceptance or it could be not having the self confidence to stand up for herself. Either could be true at this point. I myself feel like she identifies as female but I don't really have any hard evidence of that.
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Morituri

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #227 on: 22 May 2018, 11:43 »

Bubbles identifying as female has never really been at question.

First, her figure was always drawn as female.  Even in armor when the chest plate didn't make a bustline obvious, she is woman-shaped (Hips don't lie, as Jeph pointed out in the character ref when she was introduced).  "Bubbles" is considered feminine as a name.  So exaggeratedly feminine as to hang a lampshade on it in fact.  And she has always responded positively to being addressed as a woman - not corrected nor been upset about nor even questioned it.

So, there's no question really; she clearly considers her identity to be gendered, and the gender to be female.

If you want to know how the less anthropomorphic AI manage affairs, you should probably ask Jeremy and Seven (or Pintsize, but NEVER ask Pintsize....). Whatever they do it involves USB cables rather than human-style slippery friction.

But it's pretty much implied that they think of themselves as male and female, respectively, and it probably means more than just which end of the USB cable each one is on.  In fact Jeremy apparently had male identity before he was even remotely people-shaped; even as an assembly arm he interacted as male.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #228 on: 22 May 2018, 12:23 »

Bubbles is a lady.
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A small perverse otter

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #229 on: 22 May 2018, 12:56 »

Bubbles is a lady.
Have you asked them what pronoun they prefer?
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #230 on: 22 May 2018, 13:14 »

Letting someone call you 'she' or 'miss' does not make you female. Identifying as female makes you female.
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pecoros7

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #231 on: 22 May 2018, 13:45 »

I am very confident Bubbles is a woman for one reason: Jeph used "she" and "her" when he posted her profile in 3004. As much affection as Jeph expresses for his characters, I cannot imagine he would misgender her like that in his own comic.

Bubbles's profile in 3004
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awgiedawgie

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #232 on: 22 May 2018, 13:46 »

Letting someone call you 'she' or 'miss' does not make you female. Identifying as female makes you female.
Like I said, I know it’s not necessarily proof that she identifies as female. But seriously, how many females do you know who make a point of stating that they are female? The only time I’ve ever heard someone make a point of stating that they were female was a coworker who, to be fair, did not look or act at all feminine, and they were correcting someone who had assumed that they were a man.


Yes, technically, anything is possible. And since we are not there to ask her in person, no one can be 100% certain unless she says one way or another. But if someone appears to be female, unless they make a point of stating that they are not female, particularly if they do not correct anyone who uses female terms for them, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that they are, in fact, female.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #233 on: 22 May 2018, 13:51 »

Letting someone call you 'she' or 'miss' does not make you female. Identifying as female makes you female.
Like I said, I know it’s not necessarily proof that she identifies as female. But seriously, how many females do you know who make a point of stating that they are female? The only time I’ve ever heard someone make a point of stating that they were female was a coworker who, to be fair, did not look or act at all feminine, and they were correcting someone who had assumed that they were a man.
It's an assumption -- a reasonable one, to be sure, but an assumption. OTOH, formal American English is only now moving away from 'he/him' and towards 'they/them' for persons of unknown gender. The NYT Style Guide only made that move last year, I'm pretty sure that the WSJ Style Guide hasn't. I haven't checked AP.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #234 on: 22 May 2018, 13:54 »

Letting someone call you 'she' or 'miss' does not make you female. Identifying as female makes you female.
(Apparently, the forum ate my response. Sorry if this is a dupe.)

Yes, that's exactly my point. Bubbles apparently prefers 'she/her' -- but that does not me she identifies as female. Perhaps she's just used to that form of address and has decided it isn't worth fighting that battle on top of everything else.

My point is exactly the one I asked: No one has ever asked her. We assume she's female, but if it's a matter of real interest, perhaps we should, you know, ask her?
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SpanielBear

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #235 on: 22 May 2018, 14:03 »

Letting someone call you 'she' or 'miss' does not make you female. Identifying as female makes you female.
(Apparently, the forum ate my response. Sorry if this is a dupe.)

Yes, that's exactly my point. Bubbles apparently prefers 'she/her' -- but that does not me she identifies as female. Perhaps she's just used to that form of address and has decided it isn't worth fighting that battle on top of everything else.

My point is exactly the one I asked: No one has ever asked her. We assume she's female, but if it's a matter of real interest, perhaps we should, you know, ask her?

If we still had twitter accounts to go to, maybe, but otherwise that entirely reasonable course action is going to be... problematic.

100% it is assumptions until she confirms. But a) pecoros7's point that Jeph wouldn't misgender his own character is a good one, and b) Bubbles *has* made a stand on other identity issues, so her tacit acceptance isn't likely to be due to a desire for a quiet life. You are correct that we don't know until it's made explicit by her, but using female pronouns does seem appropriate at present.
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awgiedawgie

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #236 on: 22 May 2018, 14:04 »

My point is exactly the one I asked: No one has ever asked her. We assume she's female, but if it's a matter of real interest, perhaps we should, you know, ask her?
The thought occurs to me, should we ask her? Is it actually an important detail, or is it just insatiable human curiosity? If it’s just curiosity, is it really anyone else’s business? If she does not feel the need to correct anyone, then why do we need to concern ourselves with why she does not correct them?
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #237 on: 22 May 2018, 15:52 »

I get the feeling that if Bubbles objected to Winslow or Momo calling her Miss Bubbles (Momo even refers to her as Her Queen) she would politely inform them of their mistake
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #238 on: 22 May 2018, 16:09 »

Asking Bubbles that (if she is a lady) seems to me like asking the ocean if it’s the ocean.

Honestly, where are y'all getting this "Bubbles is nonbinary" and "not sure about Bubbles' gender" stuff??? Literally the first comic she appeared in was titled "HER name is Bubbles."
« Last Edit: 22 May 2018, 17:04 by fayelovesbubbles »
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snufflebottoms

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #239 on: 22 May 2018, 16:56 »

I am very confident Bubbles is a woman for one reason: Jeph used "she" and "her" when he posted her profile in 3004. As much affection as Jeph expresses for his characters, I cannot imagine he would misgender her like that in his own comic.

Bubbles's profile in 3004

He wouldn't. Since Bubbles is fictional, Jeph's word might as well be hers unless he retcons her gender for some weird reason.

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pecoros7

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #240 on: 22 May 2018, 17:23 »

Asking Bubbles that (if she is a lady) seems to me like asking the ocean if it’s the ocean.

Honestly, where are y'all getting this "Bubbles in nonbinary" and "not sure about Bubbles' gender" stuff??? Literally the first comic she appeared in was titled "HER name is Bubbles."

How did I miss that!? I referenced her bio page but somehow missed the title of the comic immediately before it. I even used the wiki to find that page and "Her name is Bubbles" is directly above the link I used. Her gender was confirmed literally before she appeared in the comic. (Granted, that's a very loose definition of "before". It's the top of the page and she appears in the middle of it. I still maintain my position, though)

But while I think the question about Bubbles specifically has a clear answer, I think the question is worth asking in a broader sense. Are we assuming too much if we make assumptions about other AI who don't have that kind of explicit introduction? Jeremy has a traditionally masculine name, but has he (she? Xi? Hu? They?) expressed a gender in any other way? What about Punchbot? Or Seven? They have gender neutral names. While non-diegetic pronoun use comes directly from Jeph and is probably a valid indicator of gender, what about diegetic pronouns? Should we assume that the main cast are sufficiently sensitive to these subjects that they have taken the time to make sure they have their pronouns right? Should we follow their lead?

Ultimately, I think following their lead is fine. In fact, I think it's probably for the best. Just as I don't think Jeph would misgender his characters, I also don't think he would normalize misgendering people by having his other characters do it. I remember Jeph saying something to the effect that he doesn't like writing asshole characters, so I think we can trust the main cast to be pretty much on point about gender identity.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #241 on: 22 May 2018, 18:10 »

I am starting to feel a bit silly for having started this topic. I guess I had imagined the possibility of Bubbles saying "but I've never been attracted to a human, or a lady!" that paralleled Faye's experience in some way, but I realize now that it really isn't the case, Bubbles has no relationship experience as far as I can tell, and seems to be Faye-sexual. And yes, I will keep using that term because I think it's pretty spiffy.
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Undrneath

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #242 on: 22 May 2018, 18:14 »

Whether or not the "answer" is obvious the discussion is never without merit.
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SpanielBear

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #243 on: 22 May 2018, 18:32 »

Archive binge and I stumbled on this:

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1995

Under Gender, Momo identifies as "Artificial Intelligence, Female." Which is interesting, maybe? I'm not sure if she is qualifying her femininity ("I am an AI female, not a human female"), including it to avoid confusion, or even regards being AI as an equal gender signifier as being female.

At the very least, it's good to have an expresson of her inner reality.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #244 on: 22 May 2018, 22:06 »

Bubbles has never expressly identified herself as female because she has no doubts about it and she unambiguously presents as female.  Also, if GIs in the QC Universe are anything at all like they are in this one, she got plenty of affirmation from other gynephilic GIs.  (May's commentary upon meeting Marigold in strip 2509 would not at all be atypical of the sort of banter you'd hear where junior enlisted personnel and alcohol mingle.)
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #245 on: 22 May 2018, 23:05 »

Given Bubbles' distinct personality, I would assume this would have happened with anyone who did what Faye did.

If it had been Steve or Elliot or literally anyone else, it likely would have played out the same way
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awgiedawgie

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #246 on: 22 May 2018, 23:26 »

Given Bubbles' distinct personality, I would assume this would have happened with anyone who did what Faye did.

If it had been Steve or Elliot or literally anyone else, it likely would have played out the same way
Should I assume that by “did what Faye did”, you mean patiently but persistently getting Bubbles to come out of her shell?
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #247 on: 23 May 2018, 00:26 »

I jusg wanted to input that as someone who identifies and loves the phrase "genderqueer" I will happily isolate myself to "genderfluid" for those who are uncomfortable with "queer" and that is a word we've been reclaiming for decades. and even with my identity every once in awhile I feel a chill when I hear the word "queer" because I remember when it was universally scary.

And one other aside. I use Xie, Xem, Xer, and also she/her and there are many situations where I am fine with just she/her. Unless someone specifically states it's too complicated to use xie xem and xer. I've had people directly ask me what pronouns I prefer and when I give them a non binary option they say something snide about it being a pain in the ass. Because they weren't being respectful, they were being tools.

And as a natural consequences of quim bags who really just want ask if I am an it I will often rankle and get on edge when asked my gender identity.

To bring it back on topic I see Bubbles as attracted to being cared about and letting her guard down enough to feel something for someone who treats her like a human being.

I've only ever fallen for one bloke and sure we had a lot of common ground cause he had experienced prejudice for being trans and I experienced prejudice for being a dyke but.. Primarily I fell for him because he treated me with such overwhelming compassion and respect I couldn't help but love him. And I was, and still am a lesbian. But sometimes your heart finds happiness in a new place.

One of my partners tells me this last paragraph is pretty similar to her perception of herself.

That's so cool:) It makes me smile to know other people are like that:)
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #248 on: 23 May 2018, 04:22 »

But...Bubbles thinks Faye is very hot (as evidenced by her conversation with Clinton). I haven't seen any indication that she thinks Elliot or Steve are hot.

I mean yes, there's an emotional aspect which is probably more important, but you can't deny that she's physically attracted to Faye too. Like Momo is to Sven. God. Sven would eat Momo alive. She is too sweet and innocent.

Looking back, it's amazing how far Clinton has come. He sees AIs as people now, I'm not sure he was there before. It took time for him to get there. He's someone who is obviously fine with Faye and Bubbles having a relationship, but he wasn't always so enlightened and understanding towards AIs.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #249 on: 23 May 2018, 10:19 »

Looking back, it's amazing how far Clinton has come. He sees AIs as people now, I'm not sure he was there before. It took time for him to get there. He's someone who is obviously fine with Faye and Bubbles having a relationship, but he wasn't always so enlightened and understanding towards AIs.
I think with Clin-ton it was the forest trees thing though in his case he was fan focused on the tech and didn't know to step back to see the person.
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