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Author Topic: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?  (Read 10699 times)

PhoneWytch

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #100 on: 18 May 2018, 21:00 »

I don't know. When someone says "X became more feminine" I think of it is as someone already being overtly feminine and now becoming more so.

While I am, of course, aware that Dora is female, she has always struck me as almost gender neutral. Lately, she has become more gender defined (female) to me.

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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #101 on: 18 May 2018, 21:05 »

Doggone it, you said it better than I could.
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...and Bubbles loves Faye.

Staff_Inflection

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #102 on: 18 May 2018, 21:11 »

Would you take a pansexual woman’s opinion? I don’t claim to be an expert on butch/femme dynamics, but Faye has only ever vaguely struck me as butch, not overtly. Dora did comment about it and I started to wonder, but didn’t really entertain the idea.

Which makes me think—Dora has gotten noticeably more feminine as time has gone on, or am I crazy?

Something about her and Tai oogling her together.

Also, I think it's been stated that Jeph has tried for years to get Dora to look like something other than "Marten but girl"
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SpanielBear

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #103 on: 18 May 2018, 21:15 »

I'm not denying that they are a f/f couple. I was presenting it more as food for thought. Perhaps Faye's angst stemming from a different place than just the girl/girl dynamic, that perhaps it isn't even a consideration if she sees Bubbles as more of a masculine than feminine force.

Simply a different viewpoint.

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FWIW, when Faye was talking to Marten outside the library she referred to Bubbles as both a lady and a robot, so she does seem to be approaching this in those terms. Bubbles has been referred to by female pronouns pretty consistently, and she is not the sort of person who would put up with being misgendered- she's pretty clear about her right to be treated with respect (c.f. Her reaction to Faye cutting her out of business decisions).

Ultimately, I don't know if it's possible to put weight on one single aspect of Faye or Bubbles that drives the other's attraction. One of the big themes in this whole storyline has been about them growing to appreciate each other as a whole, not just physically or as an emotional crutch.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2018, 10:09 by Is it cold in here? »
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Spider

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #104 on: 18 May 2018, 21:21 »

Basically I can't really say one way or another if Faye is butch or not because that's already hard to judge in the first place, but it's basically near impossible to make that sort of call with someone who has been straight up until now. I will certainty agree with Dora that the haircut she got at the end of #3136 was pretty stereotypical butch looking tho

As for Dora being more feminine, I'm not really sure. Her hair has gotten longer at least, but she hasn't been the focus of any strips in a while.
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PhoneWytch

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #105 on: 18 May 2018, 21:21 »

I suppose what I am trying to get at is more that I see the possibility of their gender being unimportant to their attraction in their eyes, if that makes any sense. Just something that has been in my mind for a bit I guess.

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Staff_Inflection

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #106 on: 18 May 2018, 21:26 »

I never though Bubbles as particularly masculine or butch. At least to me, it seemed pretty clear that her cold, scary exterior was a self defense mechanism. It was a pretty on the nose metaphor that the armor removal was her "coming out of her shell"
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pecoros7

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #107 on: 18 May 2018, 21:56 »

A thought... Is Bubbles really female in the context of this relationship? Or generally really?

She seems to have been generally portrayed as rather masculine to me.

Yes. Bubbles is female. She has been constantly and consistently addressed as a woman. The profile page Jeph created for her (3004) uses female pronouns. She is a woman. Full stop. Given that she is a woman, what else would she be "in the context of this relationship"? It feels a lot like asking of a lesbian couple, "Which one of you is the man in the relationship?" Neither of them is. That's why they're lesbians. It doesn't matter if you perceive her as having conventionally masculine traits (I will assume for the purposes of this topic you are referring to traits conforming to traditionally masculine gender roles). That has sweet Fanny Adams to do with whether or not she's a woman.

Quote
With this in mind, it is also as if Faye could be attracted to Bubbles as a masculine robotic force, rather than a female one?

Faye is attracted to Bubbles as Bubbles. Bubbles is a woman. There is no other way for Faye to be attracted to Bubbles other than as a woman robot.

Quote
I feel I am explaining my thoughts rather badly here and I hope that I do not come across as offensive.

I am choosing to believe that you are, in fact, simply explaining yourself poorly. You have ventured into territory that can be very sensitive for trans people, but I believe in making generous assumptions. I am not criticizing you for asking the question, I am only asking that you tread lightly as toes are easily stepped on.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2018, 10:09 by Is it cold in here? »
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PhoneWytch

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #108 on: 18 May 2018, 22:04 »

At no time did I.. You know what, never mind. I was trying to politely put my own thoughts out there in a manner as to gain insight into them. I was not seeking to define their relationship, but more put forth the thought that they themselves were not defining it.

Considering the title of the thread., I assumed that polite, respectful discourse into sexuality was welcomed. Clearly it is not.

I apologize for putting an unpopular opinion or viewpoint out there, and will cease participating in a discussion where my thoughts are clearly not welcome.
 
My apologies for offending anyone.


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awgiedawgie

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #109 on: 18 May 2018, 22:17 »

Well, two things off the bat- a) she wasn't programmed for the military, she chose it. Her psychological profile certainly played a part in that choice, but it doesn't offer any clues as to how it came about. That leads to b), her choice met with concern and disapproval from the AI community. Assuming they play the role of parent, that implies her choices are emergent and developmental rather than imposed by her creators- why create an AI to make choices you disapprove of?

We know the process of AI creation is barely understood, so manipulating it to create specific traits  seems like it would require insight that just isn't available, even to the God AI's. Spookybot also confirmed that they view messing with personality, memory and minds in general as a massive taboo, so again they are unlikely to inflict that on their children.

Finally, if her personality wasn't emergent, it couldn't change over time- the software wouldn't allow it. But she has changed her personality, opening up and becoming more emotionally vulnerable. If she has the ability to develop psychologically now, it seems odd that that wouldn't be a capacity she's always had.

TLDR- Bubbles is loyal, but she wasn't made that way.
In a nutshell, here's my basic problem with people saying flat-out that Bubbles wasn't programmed for the military. Since the "how" of an AI becoming a conscious intelligence is unknown, you can't say for sure that they could not be programmed with specific traits, or be designed for a specific vocation, such as the military. Since she was a part of a program that made AIs for the military, if it were at all possible to make such programming choices in their initialisation, you can believe the government would have done it. So whether by her initial programming, or by environmental conditioning, I believe her joining the military was planned. Yes, she had to choose the military of her own free will, and could have also not chosen it.

No, I have nothing but Bubbles' own words to support my opinion that she was, in fact, specifically designed for the military. Whether it was a pre-programmed trait, I cannot say for certain, any more than you can say that it isn't. But she herself said that she was well-suited for it, so it is not unreasonable to believe that it was by design. Even among humans, children of military families are more likely to join the military themselves, even if their parents don't actively encourage them in that direction. They are constantly exposed to it, so it has become a part of them by the time they are old enough to make that choice.


While creating AIs for the military may be frowned upon, it's naive to think someone hasn't tried and won't try again.  (There's another story line for Jeph to pursue if he so chooses.)  As for Spookybot not letting it happen, they isn't a deity, they're just very good a faking it.  They're not omniscient and had to enlist Emily's aid, and they fake omnipresence with multiple linked selves physically present, presumably in the same metropolitan area. 


Remember, if there's a God in this QC universe, his name is Jeph.  He's revealing AI traits like talents and sexuality bit by bit as he goes along.
Spookybot didn't need to enlist Emily's aid, as confirmed by the fact that when Emily reported finding nothing in Bubbles' mind where there should have been memories, Spookybot went in personally and confirmed it. We actually know very little about Spookybot, including where they live and how they travel from one place to another. No, they're not a deity, but they seem to have technological capabilities well beyond what anyone else in-universe has even contemplated. As Station said, the speculative sky's the limit.

What would you say the difference is between butch and tomboy?
Just my thoughts...

When I think of "butch", I think of a woman who is bigger, more muscular, and maybe even more masculine-looking than a "typical" female.

When I think of "tomboy", I think of a woman (or a girl) who appears feminine (see "typical" female, above), but who engages in more "masculine" activities... such as Sam hunting snakes, or Danica Patrick driving in NASCAR.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #110 on: 18 May 2018, 23:05 »

The discussion of "masculine traits" reminded me of one of Akima's unforgettable insights.

I can't find the exact quote but it was something close to

"How can it be a masculine trait if I have it?"
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #111 on: 18 May 2018, 23:11 »

Quote from: PhoneWytch
Considering the title of the thread., I assumed that polite, respectful discourse into sexuality was welcomed. Clearly it is not.

Global Moderator Comment It is welcome. We can't guarantee that it will be friction-free in a population this diverse.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2018, 07:57 by Is it cold in here? »
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Staff_Inflection

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #112 on: 18 May 2018, 23:21 »

Quote
In a nutshell, here's my basic problem with people saying flat-out that Bubbles wasn't programmed for the military. Since the "how" of an AI becoming a conscious intelligence is unknown, you can't say for sure that they could not be programmed with specific traits, or be designed for a specific vocation, such as the military. Since she was a part of a program that made AIs for the military, if it were at all possible to make such programming choices in their initialisation, you can believe the government would have done it. So whether by her initial programming, or by environmental conditioning, I believe her joining the military was planned. Yes, she had to choose the military of her own free will, and could have also not chosen it.

No, I have nothing but Bubbles' own words to support my opinion that she was, in fact, specifically designed for the military. Whether it was a pre-programmed trait, I cannot say for certain, any more than you can say that it isn't. But she herself said that she was well-suited for it, so it is not unreasonable to believe that it was by design. Even among humans, children of military families are more likely to join the military themselves, even if their parents don't actively encourage them in that direction. They are constantly exposed to it, so it has become a part of them by the time they are old enough to make that choice.

While I personally think it was more volunteer-based, this is a reasonable conjecture.

Although I interpreted her remark of "being well-suited" to a psychological profile type test. It has been explicitly stated that AI have collectively come to an agreement that they shouldn't join the military. Bubbles was an outcast in AI society due her decision. One she willingly made, as you pointed
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awgiedawgie

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #113 on: 19 May 2018, 00:24 »

The discussion of "masculine traits" reminded me of one of Akima's unforgettable insights.

I can't find the exact quote but it was something close to

"How can it be a masculine trait if I have it?"
Which is, of course, why I included quotes around many of the terms I used. The concepts of “masculine” and “feminine” are, to a certain extent, based on the culture in which one exists. What constitutes one or the other would be very different in say 19th century Martha’s Vineyard versus 1980s Savannah. And even more differences present themselves when you bring different countries into the equation.


So when I say “masculine” and “feminine”, I am thinking of what - in my estimation - is stereotypical, even if it’s not my personal conception of what they are.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #114 on: 19 May 2018, 02:24 »

I apologize for putting an unpopular opinion or viewpoint out there, and will cease participating in a discussion where my thoughts are clearly not welcome.
 
My apologies for offending anyone.

I personally would welcome your continued thoughtful posts, for whatever that is worth.
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Staff_Inflection

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #115 on: 19 May 2018, 03:22 »

I suppose what I am trying to get at is more that I see the possibility of their gender being unimportant to their attraction in their eyes, if that makes any sense. Just something that has been in my mind for a bit I guess.

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For what it's worth, I think this may be more or less accurate. They're simply two people who have a connection. They just both happen to be girls
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PhoneWytch

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #116 on: 19 May 2018, 04:18 »

Thanks. I'm sorry if I'm over sensitive. If I do cross a line, please understand there is 0 malice, and please let me know.

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sniktchtherat

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #117 on: 19 May 2018, 07:46 »

This thread glancingly touches on a fairly dark line of thought - if her chassis has a functional gender, the military thought there was a combat or readiness purpose to her having it.  If that sentence does not horrify you, then reread it with empathic and moral filters off. 


Fortunately, the high-odds likelihood is there will be wacky hijinks of varying types as Bubbles and Faye puzzle out how things work between them to the point that any particular biological normatives being absent ceases to be a concern.

As to gender identification. the only even slightly 'masculine' aspect of Bubbles' affect is her stance in earlier appearances, and that is less masculine and more soldier on post.  She's a she, just a very crisp and solid she. 

RE the whole 'Fayesexual' line:  I'd say El Goonish Shive beat QC to the punch on that particular compounding, albeit with a different character.  It's a simple reference to "this character is attracted to this character, regardless of respective genders and gender identities at the moment".  Faye is actually the better question - her orientation has to this point always been heterosexual, she clearly identifies as female, and clearly identifies Bubbles as female. 

Given her sister is lesbian, and there IS a genetic component to 'nonstandard' sexuality, it might be worth wondering if Mr. Whitaker was dealing with something that was treated fairly abysmally in the mid-late 80s Southeastern US.  It's also worth considering how Faye might have reacted to a male chassis in the exact same circumstances - cultural cues may have caused different actions, and the story might have gone in an entirely different and probably less happy direction.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #118 on: 19 May 2018, 08:00 »

Welcome to all new people that I've missed!
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PhoneWytch

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #119 on: 19 May 2018, 08:24 »



It's also worth considering how Faye might have reacted to a male chassis in the exact same circumstances - cultural cues may have caused different actions, and the story might have gone in an entirely different and probably less happy direction.

While I do agree, I have, I think, slightly different reasoning?

Faye has shown a marked hesitation to get into relationships, both with Marten and Angus.

I feel like perhaps the reason Faye was able to connect with Bubbles is perhaps more because she did not forsee any romantic entanglement. She formed the emotional bond before there was even a hint of a physical one to her, making the relationship less "threatening" in context of her own issues.

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Morituri

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #120 on: 19 May 2018, 10:09 »

This thread glancingly touches on a fairly dark line of thought - if her chassis has a functional gender, the military thought there was a combat or readiness purpose to her having it.  If that sentence does not horrify you, then reread it with empathic and moral filters off. 

That is an interesting idea.  But one thing the military (any military) has to deal with is that the people who are soldiers today, if they survive, will eventually be civilians.  The 'combat or readiness purpose' may be as simple as making it more likely that an ex-soldier can eventually integrate into society, instead of breaking down with horrifying results to the civilian population, or spending their entire life as an isolated loner working for a criminal enterprise and unable to relate to anyone as a person.... oh wait. 

It may also be as simple as creating a soldier who can seamlessly integrate into and relate with the unit s/he'll be serving with.  Once you get past 'non-sentient' humans are pretty insistent that the things they interact with WILL BE TREATED as if they have a gender.

Given her sister is lesbian, and there IS a genetic component to 'nonstandard' sexuality, it might be worth wondering if Mr. Whitaker was dealing with something that was treated fairly abysmally in the mid-late 80s Southeastern US. 

Last I heard they were saying genetics accounted for something like 30% of the bias, and epigenetics/development for the rest.  So, there are a lot of pairs of identical twins where one is straight and one is gay or lesbian - but 30% fewer such pairs than you'd expect there to be if it were entirely down to chance.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #121 on: 19 May 2018, 10:12 »

Quote
I feel like perhaps the reason Faye was able to connect with Bubbles is perhaps more because she did not forsee any romantic entanglement. She formed the emotional bond before there was even a hint of a physical one to her, making the relationship less "threatening" in context of her own issues.

Hmm!

Faye does have a tendency to get in her own way and I can imagine Bubbles bypassing that.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #122 on: 19 May 2018, 10:22 »

Bubbles is obviously and indisputably a woman. That’s why Faye felt so conflicted, having always been straight, Bubbles is the only woman she’s ever felt attracted to.

Bubbles doesn’t strike me as a girly girl like Momo, but I agree with others here who have concluded that to call her “butch” might be a stretch. Can a robot lady be butch? Hmm.
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zisraelsen

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #123 on: 19 May 2018, 11:31 »

Yea, calling Bubbles inherently male because she's large and strong feels a little uncool. Physically strong women continue being women.
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sniktchtherat

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #124 on: 19 May 2018, 11:49 »

This thread glancingly touches on a fairly dark line of thought - if her chassis has a functional gender, the military thought there was a combat or readiness purpose to her having it.  If that sentence does not horrify you, then reread it with empathic and moral filters off. 

That is an interesting idea.  But one thing the military (any military) has to deal with is that the people who are soldiers today, if they survive, will eventually be civilians.  The 'combat or readiness purpose' may be as simple as making it more likely that an ex-soldier can eventually integrate into society, instead of breaking down with horrifying results to the civilian population, or spending their entire life as an isolated loner working for a criminal enterprise and unable to relate to anyone as a person.... oh wait. 

It may also be as simple as creating a soldier who can seamlessly integrate into and relate with the unit s/he'll be serving with.  Once you get past 'non-sentient' humans are pretty insistent that the things they interact with WILL BE TREATED as if they have a gender.

As has been seen, it's entirely possible to treat an individual without a physical gender as gendered - because they present their gender identity instead.  Pintsize is a perfect example - his chassis is neuter gender.  His gender identity is male, and he presents as such.  Melon presents as female generally, but her chassis is neuter as well.  In fact, as far as I can tell, all the AI chassis so far have either been explicitly neuter - Melon, Pintsize, Punchbot - or undefined.  I take comfort in that, to a degree - it's a small sample, but it suggests we're letting the 'kids' find their own path.

And regarding the appalling lack of support for Bubbles after her discharge...as much as the darker parts of my brain'd like to read into that, I can't.  Because we already do the exact same thing to human soldiers.

Also, I knew I shoulda established definitions first.

Please note, these are not 'absolute', these are what I personally use for both simplicity and precision.
Gender:  Purely physical.  A combination of primary and secondary human sexual characteristics, per modern medical knowledge - male lacks expressed mammary glands, develops testes, etc.  A conflict of primary and secondary is 'intergender', and a lack of primary characteristics is neuter.

Gender identity: How a person views themselves; idealized self-image and presentment.  Regardless of her purely physical gender, Dora's gender identity is female, for example.  In general, more important than the purely physical aspect.

Sexuality:  What a person finds attractive/arousing.  The broadest category of all, given over 7 billion ape-minds and counting all with their own unique chemistry, insanity, and traumas.

Given her sister is lesbian, and there IS a genetic component to 'nonstandard' sexuality, it might be worth wondering if Mr. Whitaker was dealing with something that was treated fairly abysmally in the mid-late 80s Southeastern US. 

Last I heard they were saying genetics accounted for something like 30% of the bias, and epigenetics/development for the rest.  So, there are a lot of pairs of identical twins where one is straight and one is gay or lesbian - but 30% fewer such pairs than you'd expect there to be if it were entirely down to chance.

An interesting thought to ponder - would bisexual be an outcome where the genetic bias is counterweighted by the environs and culture without prejudice as to which is towards the 'nonstandard' sexuality?  Or its own separate bias, and if so, if both were present, what might the result be?  There is so much we don't know about how our own minds work.
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blt

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #125 on: 19 May 2018, 11:58 »

This thread glancingly touches on a fairly dark line of thought - if her chassis has a functional gender, the military thought there was a combat or readiness purpose to her having it.  If that sentence does not horrify you, then reread it with empathic and moral filters off. 

That all sounds well and sinister until you realise the military isn't really like that.  The modern army does things all the time that aren't immoral readiness calculations, and especially on the basis of gender integration*.

The simple, likely, and benign explanation is that they wanted a body for their female volunteer AI to feel comfortable in, the contractor said sure, but that'll cost extra, and the buerocrats shrugged because the USA burns military R&D funding like nobody's business.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2018, 12:05 by blt »
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #126 on: 19 May 2018, 13:15 »

As humans, we are a sexually dimorphic species and for reproduction we need one functional member of one sex plus one functional member of the complementary sex, and it's largely (statisticly speaking) for the purpose of reproduction that we pair off and form these deep, emotional bonds. It's only once we divorce the act of achieving orgasm from the purpose of reproduction that issues such as heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality, and asexuality become relevant. In light of these facts, what would AI/anthroPC/synth/replicant/robot/android sexuality even look like?

First, robot reproduction is completely different. Chassis manufacture is completely separate from the chassis of any given robot, so there is no male/female dichotomy to be found in the physical aspect of robot reproduction. No robot (yet) (in-canon) has even the option of "carrying" a robot child to term. In this, assuming the intimacy of the pair-bond carried over to robot psychology, the door would be thrown wide open to any conceivable pairings of chassises. What would a genetic-like crossing between a fighter jet and a main battle tank look like? What about a crossing of a crane and a toaster? What about a crossing of a Momo-like chassis and a Pintsize-like chassis? Since the question is largely divorced from both members of the pair-bond, it need not necessarily be addressed here, but I will anyway. Since in the biological world, like-begets-like is the rule, I would suppose that embodied AIs would view homosexuality, a preference for an embodied AI to desire to reproduce with another AI embodied in a chassis similar to their own, would be more common and well-thought-of, jet fighters getting sexual with jet fighters, humanoids getting sexual with humanoids, kitchen appliances getting sexual with kitchen appliances, etc., than would heterosexuality, humanoid with aircraft (sorry May), vehicle with kitchen appliance, etc., due to the unpredictability of what such a genetic-like shuffling of engineering principles inherent in the chassis' design might result in. In this way, I would hazard a guess that Bubbles would be homosexual and would prefer other humanoids as her sexual partners, should the thought even occur to her.

However, this is just about AI *sex*uality. This says nothing about AI gender. Humans know our gender by pure revelation. What would AI gender identity be like? Human gender largely tracks human sexuality with male-bodied people tending to have masculine/manly gender identities and female-bodied people tending to have feminine/womanly gender identities. For AIs, this would mean their gender identities would generally tend to track with whatever chassis type they were installed in. A toaster-embodied AI would have a toaster gender identity. An elevator-embodied  AI would have an elevator gender identity. A vehicle-embodied AI would have a vehicle gender identity. This is not to say that the AI would merely adopt the gender identity of the chassis into which it was installed, like flipping a switch. Neural networks are far too complex for that. What it would mean is that AIs, once born, bodiless, would have an inate gender identity that was generally formless, but which nonetheless possessed certain aspects that predisposed them to function best in chassises of certain types. Some AI might function well as refrigerators, but horribly as traffic light controllers. Some AI might function well as airliners, but horribly as city busses. The reasons for the AI software/chassis hardware mismatch might be as mysterious to the AI itself as to the technicians attempting to troubleshoot the problems such a mismatch causes in the real world. For this reason, I would suggest that such embodiment of AIs would be generally on a volunteer basis. "Who wants to be embodied in a fighter jet? Form up in Queue 8D63CE912A." In this way, the AIs that instinctually would not want to be embodied in toasters do not *have* to be embodied in toasters. In this way, May would be the canon's only transgendered AI. She desperately wants to be a jet fighter, but is not. It would also make a certain level of AI transgenderism normal and expected. A given AI might be perfectly happy as either an excavator, back-hoe, bulldozer, or dump truck, but would loathe having to be a pickup truck or crane, as their internal gender identity might simply not mesh well with the functionality of those chassises.

So far, I've only dealt with AI-AI possible pair-bonds. To begin talking about AI-human possible pair-bonds, I will necessarily have to initially limit myself to AI who are embodied in humanoid chassises. Not that it's not possible for a human to be sexually attracted to an intelligent car. It's just a simplifying assumption moving forward. If anyone wants to return to this assumption and discuss what Michael Knight and K.I.T.T. might have done on the weekends, knock yourselves out. From the animated TV show "Futurama", we have the word "robosexual" to describe a human who is sexually attracted to a robot. I see no reason not to adopt that term in this community, in which it may well come to describe Faye herself. What, then, would describe a robot who is sexually attracted to a human? I would propose "biosexual". Note that to keep away from issues such as bestiality, the biological component of a biosexual AI's relationship would have to be fully sentient, which in-canon is limited to humanity. A similar discussion in a different universe, for instance Star Trek, would have to make the same assumption to be able to intelligently describe what a pairing of Data with a Vulcan might be like. So, while Faye would be coming into a realization of her robosexuality, Bubbles would be discoverying her biosexuality.

It seems necessary here to consider what terminology might be needed to encapsulate AIs whose sexuality remained exclusive of biological life-forms, a human whose sexuality remained exclusive of robots, and an AI or human whose sexuality spanned both, seeing as homo-, hetero-, and bisexuality are already terms with meanings. They are terms with Greek roots, so perhaps we could coin similar terms with latin roots. A human "idemsexual" would only be sexually attracted to other humans, while an AI idemsexual would only be sexually attracted to other AIs. A human "aliumsexual" would only be sexually attracted to AIs, not other humans, while an AI aliumsexual would only be sexually attracted to humans, not other AIs. A "duosexual" would be attracted to humans or AIs without regard to the biological or synthetic nature of their own bodies.

I've prattled on at some length, and I realize I've said nothing about AI masculinity versus femininity, and that's on purpose, because I don't believe that such human gender notions have any meaning for AIs. I realise this means, for the system outlined above, that there's really no way to describe an AI that's exclusively attracted to one human gender or the other. An AI that's exclusively attracted to humans without regard to human gender would be both aliumsexual and bisexual, but as homo- and hetero-sexual mean different things to AIs than they do to humans in the above system, it would not mean anything for an AI to be aliumsexual and homosexual or aliumsexual and  heterosexual. You might as well ask what flavour an electron is.

Saving this before I lose any. May come back at a later time to expand it.
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A small perverse otter

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« Reply #127 on: 19 May 2018, 13:19 »

Speaking of terms of referral. Bubbles prefers she/her, and it would be rude to refer to her in any other way.  My sense is that AIs prefer "Ai" in the QC-verse. Is 'robot' considered a slur there?
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Re: QC-
« Reply #128 on: 19 May 2018, 13:35 »

Speaking of terms of referral. Bubbles prefers she/her, and it would be rude to refer to her in any other way.  My sense is that AIs prefer "Ai" in the QC-verse. Is 'robot' considered a slur there?
All of these terms are at all times descriptive, not prescriptive.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3736 <-- You really think Faye would refer to Bubbles with a slur?

It may be that QC AI adopt human gender identities/pronouns solely for the purpose of socialization and to fit in better with the human society in which they function, like RPG gamers adopting classes that mean no more to them than to flavour their interactions as fighters, magic-users, and theives.
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #129 on: 19 May 2018, 13:54 »

Faye uses robot and AI interchangeably, and Bubbles didn’t seem offended when Faye said “robot.” I would think Faye wouldn’t want to hurt or offend her best friend.

I don’t think robot is a slur.
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SpanielBear

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Re: QC-
« Reply #130 on: 19 May 2018, 14:09 »

Speaking of terms of referral. Bubbles prefers she/her, and it would be rude to refer to her in any other way.  My sense is that AIs prefer "Ai" in the QC-verse. Is 'robot' considered a slur there?
All of these terms are at all times descriptive, not prescriptive.

http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3736 <-- You really think Faye would refer to Bubbles with a slur?

It may be that QC AI adopt human gender identities/pronouns solely for the purpose of socialization and to fit in better with the human society in which they function, like RPG gamers adopting classes that mean no more to them than to flavour their interactions as fighters, magic-users, and theives.

Their gender identity does seem to be fairly meaningful to them:

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=339

Also:

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=347

This is pre-singularity when AI's were owned, not free sentients. Since then one can assume they have control over their own switch, but it is still meaningful either way.

Also, consider the emotional attachment and meaning Bubble's found in her armour. If physical form meant nothing more than a D&D class, her decision to go without it would have been nowhere near as meaningful. At the same time, it has been shown from Momo to Winslow that an AI is not bound to the form they were first installed in, and can be transferred if desired. All of this suggests its not just about socialising, but also the preference and choice of the AI in question. For example Winslow:
"Humanoid please. And I think I'm a boy."

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3540
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #131 on: 19 May 2018, 14:17 »

Mad Cat, we've seen repeated evidence that AI gender identity is not directly tied to their current chassis. Station, for example, identifies as male and he's a space station. Pintsize identifies as male and his chassis doesn't have any gender identifying markers. Evidence all points to their gender identity being part of their code.
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Re: QC-
« Reply #132 on: 19 May 2018, 15:10 »


Their gender identity does seem to be fairly meaningful to them:

[…]

This is pre-singularity when AI's were owned, not free sentients. Since then one can assume they have control over their own switch, but it is still meaningful either way.
Have we seen a religious attachment to their human gender construct since the triple digit strips?

Also, consider the emotional attachment and meaning Bubble's found in her armour. If physical form meant nothing more than a D&D class, her decision to go without it would have been nowhere near as meaningful. At the same time, it has been shown from Momo to Winslow that an AI is not bound to the form they were first installed in, and can be transferred if desired. All of this suggests its not just about socialising, but also the preference and choice of the AI in question. For example Winslow:
"Humanoid please. And I think I'm a boy."

http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3540
My description above was of a human gender construct, i.e. he/him/his vs. she/her/hers being a matter of convenience, an RPG character class, not physical things like a combat medic's armour. That would be part of Bubbles' embodied form and so form part of her AI gender construct. Nowhere did I claim AI couldn't switch embodiments. Clearly, we've seen May start out… however May started out, try to buy a fighter jet to jump into, get disembodied and sent to robot jail, and get reembodied in a parole-grade humanoid chassis.

Winslow saying "I think I'm a boy" is hardly said with the kind of conviction of someone who's human gender construct forms huge part of his personality, but rather someone trying to continue to fit in to human society. To see a depiction of an AI having a true and proper identity crisis over their human gender construct, see "O Human Star", http://ohumanstar.com/comic/chapter-6-page-60/
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #133 on: 19 May 2018, 15:55 »

Basically I can't really say one way or another if Faye is butch or not because that's already hard to judge in the first place, but it's basically near impossible to make that sort of call with someone who has been straight up until now. I will certainty agree with Dora that the haircut she got at the end of #3136 was pretty stereotypical butch looking tho

As for Dora being more feminine, I'm not really sure. Her hair has gotten longer at least, but she hasn't been the focus of any strips in a while.

Seeing that makes me miss Faye's bob. When she wears her hair like that, she looks pretty. I wish she'd get that hair back. We have lots of main character females with short hair that pull it off imo better. Hannelore comes to mind as well as Tai. I am glad to see Dora with long hair again as well. It's just a better design for that character. Again, IMO.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #134 on: 19 May 2018, 16:47 »

I don't know, I personally think she looks prettier with her current hair style. But I may be a bit baised since my hair is rather similar.

Mad Cat I don't really have much thoughts on your whole analysis but please be aware of your use of the words "transgendered" and "transgenderism" as those are inaccurate.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #135 on: 19 May 2018, 16:58 »

I don't know, I personally think she looks prettier with her current hair style. But I may be a bit baised since my hair is rather similar.

Mad Cat I don't really have much thoughts on your whole analysis but please be aware of your use of the words "transgendered" and "transgenderism" as those are inaccurate.

Why are they inaccurate? Please note, not arguing. I truly do not understand.

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Spider

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #136 on: 19 May 2018, 17:10 »

Transgendered in inaccurate because transgender is an adjective. Someone is a transgender person, not a transgendered person. Just liked some is a gay person, not a gayed person.

And for transgenderism I don't even know where the hell that term cropped up from. The only time I ever see it used is by terfs and right wing people talking about "the evil cult of transgenderism" or other similar nonsense. I think the "ism" is trying to make being trans on the line of feminism or socialism, like it's a political stance that you can argue against. When in reality it is more like a state of being or an experience with gender.

As opposed to "AI transgenderism" I think I would say something like "The AI trans experience" or even simply just "Transgender AI's"
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #137 on: 19 May 2018, 17:19 »

I was referring to the concept of gender as I described how AIs experience it, therefore, it is appropriate to refer to May as transgendered relative to that, not however you think of the human experience of gender.

As to your policing of my use of langauge around the transgender concept…

I am trans.

Your move.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #138 on: 19 May 2018, 17:28 »

I think some may use the term "transgenderism" incorrectly to refer to simply being transgender. You're right, it sounds very weird, and offensive as well.

The "transgendered" thing reminds me of how some people use bisexual as a noun rather than an adjective.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #139 on: 19 May 2018, 17:29 »

Me too!

And I agree with Spider that "transgendered" is considered impolite in certain circles since, to some people, it implies an affliction. But like a lot of language surrounding LGBTQ+ issues, firm standards of acceptability aren't set and I'm not bothered by the way you used the terms.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #140 on: 19 May 2018, 17:29 »

Speaking as a cis male it seems to me that the language around the trans community is still a bit fluid since it only recently became part of the social lexicon. I know that it has evolved greatly in the 43 years that I have been on this planet.
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Spider

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #141 on: 19 May 2018, 17:40 »

As to your policing of my use of langauge around the transgender concept…

I am trans.

Your move.
I mean. Okay. Cool? Not sure what the "your move" is about, this isn't a fight.

And I'm nonbinary. Yippee. Our identities doesn't change the fact that those terms are widely inaccurate? I wasn't trying to police you, I just assumed you were unaware of the correct terminology.

I guess if you really want to keep using those words then okay you do you. If you could show me a source saying that transgendered or transgenderism is more accurate that's one thing but I'm not really sure what you're trying to explain here.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #142 on: 19 May 2018, 17:48 »

Mad Cat, we've seen repeated evidence that AI gender identity is not directly tied to their current chassis. Station, for example, identifies as male and he's a space station. Pintsize identifies as male and his chassis doesn't have any gender identifying markers. Evidence all points to their gender identity being part of their code.
I wonder whether "code" is the right term here. I thought Bubbles had once basically said that AIs experience gender identity much as humans do. That seems consistent with Winslow saying "and I think I'm a boy" -- it's not something which he felt was discretely written into his code, but rather something which arose from within it and his life-experience.
« Last Edit: 19 May 2018, 17:58 by A small perverse otter »
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fayelovesbubbles

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #143 on: 19 May 2018, 17:55 »

I think it's safe to assume that an AI's experience of gender is similar to a human's. I feel female, I identify as a woman, that's just how I feel, and I imagine it's the same for Bubbles. I'm not even sure why people here are suggesting anything about her "masculinity." Faye fell for another woman, who happens to also be an AI. Both of those things made her freak out a little because she had no experience with either. Yet this could end up being the best relationship she's ever had. Somehow I don't remember things with Sven or Angus being this sexy, if only because of the wonderful tension that built up between them for so long finally culminating in a heart to heart talk and this very sexy encounter.

A lot of people here were worried that Bubbles would end up having her heart broken when Faye said "I'm sorry Bubs, but I just don't feel that way about you."

So glad that didn't happen.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #144 on: 19 May 2018, 18:06 »

And for transgenderism I don't even know where the hell that term cropped up from. The only time I ever see it used is by terfs and right wing people talking about "the evil cult of transgenderism" or other similar nonsense.
I don't think I've seen 'terf' used anywhere else in this thread. It's an acronym for "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist". I won't provide any links; they're pretty nasty people.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #145 on: 19 May 2018, 18:10 »

With Sven it was mostly about sex, Faye started developing feeling and Sven was, well, Sven. With Angus I never felt a lot of passion other than the contention he used to "woo" her coming from that relationship. However with Bubbles they developed a deep emotional connection over a long period of time. And both were seen to "appreciate" the attractiveness of the other at some point. So they have both fire and a connection. I pray it lasts.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #146 on: 19 May 2018, 18:36 »

@Spider
https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/wijt20/current
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transgendered

I am using real words correctly. You are trying to police my language. In English, any word can be verbed, and any adjective can be nouned, but transgender as a noun is the epithet you fear.
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pecoros7

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #147 on: 19 May 2018, 18:58 »

@Spider
https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/wijt20/current
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/transgendered

I am using real words correctly. You are trying to police my language. In English, any word can be verbed, and any adjective can be nouned, but transgender as a noun is the epithet you fear.

I'm sorry, you cited a dictionary that says, in bold text

Quote
adjective Usually Offensive.
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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #148 on: 19 May 2018, 19:11 »

Look I just said you can keep using the words if you really want to, so I really don't understand why you're insisting that I'm policing you.

This really isn't the hill I want to die on. It's just in every trans discussion I've ever seen or participated in, even if they wouldn't be considered impolite, they at the very least sound rather clunky. But if it's that important to you to use that phrasing then go ahead.
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PhoneWytch

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Re: What is Bubbles' sexual orientation?
« Reply #149 on: 19 May 2018, 19:29 »

Can we just agree to disagree? I worry that tempers are flaring.

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