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Repairs! Tattoos! What else should Union Robotics branch out into providing?

Espresso machines!
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Steam reduction valves!
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Fighter Jet Conversion!
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Dermal covers - for HUMANS!
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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)  (Read 3795 times)

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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #100 on: 08 Aug 2018, 08:04 »

The issue is that Faye simply didn't imagine that she needed to ask someone to watch Sam whilst she was not doing so. That's a mistake that I doubt that she'll make again, at least not for a long time.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #101 on: 08 Aug 2018, 08:58 »

The issue is that Faye simply didn't imagine that she needed to ask someone to watch Sam whilst she was not doing so.

That is, of course, the main point, My (admittedly subsidiary) point is that the presence of Bubbles should have reduced the likelihood of Faye making that mistake.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #102 on: 08 Aug 2018, 09:12 »

I don't know how old she is, but I can't imagine she's 15. She shouldn't have been left to operate a piece of equipment unsupervised.
She was 14 about 600 comics ago so she may be 15 now.

She does often seem younger than that to me too, but I'm not around teenagers very often so I may not have a good sense of how mature most 14- or 15-year-olds are.  And of course there's a lot of individual variation.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #103 on: 08 Aug 2018, 09:33 »

I was talking more about the post before mine saying its a training experience, as in Sam being too young to have that kind of training experience. In fact most apprenticeships that work with such tools require the apprentice to be at least 16.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #104 on: 08 Aug 2018, 10:06 »

Bubbles is showing Leadership Qualities again. I wonder what her rank was.

Senior NCO, at least. If an officer, she was an NCO before going to Officer Candidate School. There is a certain style to the leadership of people with practical experience at the lower levels that butterbars and even Captains rarely have.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #105 on: 08 Aug 2018, 11:06 »

It occurs to me to wonder why Faye didn't ask Bubbles to keep an eye on Sam while she took her bathroom break. Bubbles can't have been too far away. (Granted, she may have been otherwise occupied.)

Or she could have told Sam to wait to start until she came back. Sam is impulsive, but strikes me as mature enough to pay attention when an adult specifically asks her to do (or not to do) something—especially someone like Faye who she really looks up to. In fact, if Faye had mentioned not ever to touch power tools in motion, this could have been prevented...but it's really easy to assume a child (especially an older one) has the same level of knowledge and common sense. It's a very easy rookie mistake to make if you haven't had a lot of experience watching kids.

Truthfully? Sam wasn't totally off. Dremel actually has a kit to trim pet nails, and I believe some people may use them for manicures, too, but those are totally with different attachments/and speed settings.

And I've actually held things in my hand before while using my Dremel—never metal things, though. The sparks alone can burn you, and the pressure on them is too high to hold onto.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #106 on: 08 Aug 2018, 12:01 »

Someone earlier mentioned gloves -- you NEVER wear gloves around rotating machinery.

Jim won't freak out or call a lawyer. Sam's taking a sword class, and Faye has been teaching Sam about dangerous stuff for a while now. He will not be shocked, upset, or the least bit surprised at this minor injury. Probably been expecting worse. He's a baker and he's seen much worse. It'll be a teachable moment all around. She's learned something valuable at a rather low cost, to be honest.

I was doing all kinds of potentially dangerous stuff at that age, and my parents would have never even thought to blame the people teaching me.

Sam probably won't be able to operate machinery until it's healed, and that will take a while. She can still do sprays, though.

I mean, the finger is still attached, so technically Faye's promise to send Sam home with all her fingers attached has been kept...

And of course Bubbles has a complete database on battlefield trauma and treatment... bandaging a ripped-out fingernail is trivial.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #107 on: 08 Aug 2018, 13:56 »

I'm frankly surprised how many people are freaking out that Faye took her eyes off of Sam for a second.  A) She's proven herself a capable worker when handling dangerous tools.  B) It is unreasonable to assume that an apprentice should be under 100% supervision at all times while working.  C) We now know that Sam made a conscious choice to do a dumb thing in a manner that Faye hasn't seen before (i.e. the willingness to knowingly put her body at risk, not just accidentally)

I think back to shop class, and working in my parents shop, and Appalachia Service Project (think Habitat for Humanity with church kids), etc. and how many times I was unsupervised with power tools.  I was also an accident-prone kid.  I once severed the tendon in my thumb with a Leatherman knife because I was trying to cut cable ties with it, a knife my grandfather had given me, and it slipped.  My parents never blamed anyone but me for the damage (and rightly so).  I had handled knives before, even did a report on knife safety, so it was a conscious level of stupidity, similar to Sam trying to trim her nails with a dremel.

Nails grow back, Jim may freak out a little and it'll cause drama, but it's not enough to shut a company down.  Maaaaybe small claims court for the medical costs of a box of band-aides, and a small consideration for emotional trauma, if he really wanted to be a hard-ass about it.  I can't even imagine a way (short of infection) for Sam to lose a finger with a grinding bit.  It would take a while to abrade your finger off.  Plus, Sam has clearly learned that she is, in fact, destructible.  I'd say that a grounding from the shop for a while (I like the extension due to considering lying to her dad) coming from both sides (Faye and Jim) should do enough for the lesson to sink in.

I disagree with you, and your parents. I don't really want to go further with that point because it's an ideological difference, and I'd be simply discussing rather than criticising, but you'd have a job managing to keep that topic going.

I have to say that I can't imagine Jeph as a writer really making legal action the next plot point here. To be honest I don't think it's very interesting.

edit: Now that I think about it, surely what Faye has done here is massively illegal? Especially in the US? Over here you could get away with 16 (I've worked with young people with power tools there) but they still need a parental consent form up to 18 to do anything like Sam is doing. I'm even talking about child endangerment or anything, I just mean Health and Safety.

And she sure as shit ain't covered by any apprenticeship laws unless we had a lovely time jump where we missed them doing a shitload of paperwork with the local authority!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #108 on: 08 Aug 2018, 14:53 »

I lost a nail at school once during a production of A Christmas Carol I think, my parents probably didn't even bat an eye. I was an "active" kid much like Sam and was a regular at the emergency room.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #109 on: 08 Aug 2018, 15:21 »

My kiddo's 9, and I can't imagine suing anyone over her losing a nail. I may not trust her to alone again with that person at her current age, but if she was a young teenager I may actually chalk it more up as a life lesson than blame the adult in charge. Kids cannot be bubble wrapped forever...

Unfortunately keeping your kids bubble-wrapped as long as possible is considered good parenting in many quarters these days, especially in light of things like school shootings and what not.  Never mind that it tends to produce young adults who can barely do anything for themselves, kids must be kept totally safe at all costs or you're a terrible parent! Yes the last part of that sentence was sarcasm - it's not possible to keep your kids totally safe at all times, no matter how much you may want to.

Anyway, I forgot that Jim's living with (married to?) Marten's mom Veronica these days. All things considered, he may be more chill about this than many of us think he will be, but perhaps Veronica won't be! Maybe she'll be the one who freaks out over Sam's injury and gets up in Faye's face about it. I suppose we'll have to wait and see how the rest of the week's strips play out...

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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #110 on: 08 Aug 2018, 16:06 »

I remember putting my nail to as well to a device that spins, it was funny because it made different sounds then, but nothing was damaged.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #111 on: 08 Aug 2018, 16:11 »

Note: I am pretty passionate about this particular topic, and many topics, and realise this can come across as aggression. I just really, really love discussion, and challenging my own attitudes through talking to people I disagree with. None of the below is intended aggressively, I'm just enthusiastic to discuss it, all is in good faith!

How many of the people here referring to what is and isn't good parenting are parents themselves, or have ever been responsible for the care of teenagers?

I don't think you understand how negligence works in this context, or at the very least, how the law tends to say it works, regardless of whether you share the law's opinion.

The point here is not 'when I was a kid I was left unsupervised and didn't die, nowadays kids need to be wrapped in bubblewrap.' The point here is that you were lucky. And 99.9% of people are lucky. And 0.1% of people are the 14 year old kid, left unsupervised by a 'responsible' adult, be that a teacher, a friend, or a parent, who does get fucking killed by one of these contraptions. That is what the law is there to prevent, because not a single one of those should ever happen.

One thing we do agree on is that it is impossible to keep your kid safe at all times, but there is definitely a middle ground between bubblewrap and not being left in a position where you could have done permanent damage.

This is a forum where attitudes and opinions are frequently challenged, and I am frankly baffled that I'm the only person so far arguing in against leaving literal children unsupervised with power tools simply because you guys managed to lose just a nail, rather than a finger or a hand, and presumably your tendon repaired itself, rather than costing you sensation or dexterity in that hand.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #112 on: 08 Aug 2018, 16:56 »

'One thing we do agree on is that it is impossible to keep your kid safe at all times, but there is definitely a middle ground between bubblewrap and not being left in a position where you could have done permanent damage.'

I agree and the thing is Sam has shown herself to be someone that doesn't have much common sense (or self preservation, whatever you want to call it) in the last strip she was going to hold the joint rather than use a vice and the first time she was in the shop she somehow ended up sprawled in the machine, running, tripping and falling maybe?

Faye knows what Sam is like and should have taken that into account, Sam has the maturity of...I don't know...a 12 year old at best and is overly-enthusiastic and Faye failed to take this all into account

Faye also seems to want to be Sams friend and co-conspirator and this also encourages Sam to act impulsively (something Sam doesn't need much encouraging in)

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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #113 on: 08 Aug 2018, 17:11 »

One thing we do agree on is that it is impossible to keep your kid safe at all times, but there is definitely a middle ground between bubblewrap and not being left in a position where you could have done permanent damage.

I also agree about the middle ground. I suspect we will disagree however, on where that middle ground should be. Personally, I think this is an important life lesson for Sam that she may not have learned any other way. Some kids are more hard-headed than others, you can tell them not to do a certain thing that you know will hurt them 'till you're blue in the face, and they'll just think you're stifling their fun. Then the moment your back is turned/you're distracted (and kids can get very good at noticing and taking advantage of those moments) they go do that thing, and get hurt. That pain may well be a better teacher than anything the parent has said. Yes, we don't like to see our kids hurt, but pain can sometimes be a more effective teacher than a hundred lectures.

Yes, Faye should have watched Sam like a hawk and not taken a bathroom break, or gotten Bubbles to watch her. Yes, she should have told Sam not to stick any body parts in a power tool's moving parts, and Sam might actually have listened. On the other hand, her curiosity has a tendency to override her sense of caution (does she even have one, I wonder?), and I suspect that sooner or later it may have lead her to "forget" such safety lectures. Better it happens with a Dremel, where she only loses a fingernail, than with say a metal saw where she loses a finger or worse. She will remember the pain of losing that fingernail, and her fear of being banned from the shop and from Faye, and is more likely to be careful in the future.

As an aside, it's a good thing this girl wasn't born in Australia, or any part of the US where rattlesnakes and their venomous relatives, and/or scorpions, were prevalent. With her curiosity, fearlessness and love of creepy-crawly things, she wouldn't have made it to her third birthday.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #114 on: 08 Aug 2018, 17:33 »

I'll take stitched over having a nail ripped off.

It hurts bad enough when I have to trim me in-grown nail. The last time I got stitches I watched the doctor sew them in.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #115 on: 08 Aug 2018, 17:48 »

and I am frankly baffled that I'm the only person so far arguing in against leaving literal children unsupervised with power tools simply because you guys managed to lose just a nail, rather than a finger or a hand, and presumably your tendon repaired itself, rather than costing you sensation or dexterity in that hand.

To be fair, you're not the only person. I may have not said it in as many words, but I do believe that anyone who is any sort of power tool does need someone with them at all times. Not just because of age, but its just common sense in case there is an accident.

16 years old, my parents had a hedge trimmer. In an attempt to prove how mature and responsible I was (that and there was a party I really wanted to go to), I decided to help my father and give him a break and show some initiative by trimming the hedge in our garden.

What no one told me was how much of a kick there was when the trimmer was activated, which left me reeling and taking a back step and accidentally kicking the power cable up. You can see where I'm going with this right? The cable getting caught by the blades of the trimmer? The blades cutting into the plastic coating and just millimetres away from the metal blades cutting the wires? The only thing that stopped me from getting electrocuted was a fraction of a second in letting go of the trigger.

Everyone here saying that they injured themselves years ago and that they're fine now. Good for you. Now consider the people who aren't fine afterwards and consider for one second that maybe, just maybe, people aren't as lucky as you have been.
« Last Edit: 09 Aug 2018, 04:48 by Castlerook »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #116 on: 08 Aug 2018, 17:52 »

The thing that strikes me most strongly in response to today's strip is Sam's reaction to the idea of Jim banning her from seeing Faye. It occurs to me that we've never seen Sam with friends of her own age, only with adults (although, in Faye's case, an adult who can act Sam's age if she wants to). I'm beginning to wonder if Faye is Sam's only close friend and that is the only reason she keeps turning up. That's something that I think Jim needs to start thinking about because, combined with her preference for 'independent learning' it might indicate that she is having pretty serious problems at school.

How boring would it be for Jeph to show us Sam playing with ordinary kids?
Hey, you seem to be forgetting about Momo. ... But I guess that sorta makes your point.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #117 on: 08 Aug 2018, 19:19 »

Strip is up!

All Hail Mommatron!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #118 on: 08 Aug 2018, 20:01 »

This is a forum where attitudes and opinions are frequently challenged, and I am frankly baffled that I'm the only person so far arguing in against leaving literal children unsupervised with power tools simply because you guys managed to lose just a nail, rather than a finger or a hand, and presumably your tendon repaired itself, rather than costing you sensation or dexterity in that hand.

You're not the only person arguing that, unless your interpretation of the multiple "Faye was stupid" posts is radically different from mine.

Also consider that there are probably people out there who haven't posted that opinion because it seems rather obvious (puts up hand).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #119 on: 08 Aug 2018, 22:00 »

Quote from: ThrillHo
I am frankly baffled that I'm the only person so far arguing in against leaving literal children unsupervised with power tools

Oh, I think there are others, but there's plenty of room to be baffled about a strain in American culture whose attitude to children is sink-or-swim-they-are-expendable.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #120 on: 08 Aug 2018, 22:43 »

Bubbles is showing her military squad leader experience here, even if she doesn't realize it. She turned the fearful Sam into a brave young lady simply by talking with her and showing her that she's stronger than she realizes...

Or maybe I'm looking too much into this and it's simply Sam being sarcastic with Faye being Faye not helping the situation...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #121 on: 08 Aug 2018, 23:05 »

The point here is not 'when I was a kid I was left unsupervised and didn't die, nowadays kids need to be wrapped in bubblewrap.' The point here is that you were lucky. And 99.9% of people are lucky. And 0.1% of people are the 14 year old kid, left unsupervised by a 'responsible' adult, be that a teacher, a friend, or a parent, who does get fucking killed by one of these contraptions.

Perhaps I was lucky; I was allowed a huge amount of freedom (considerably more than I allowed my children - or maybe I simply didn't know some things...).

But this was not without context.  It's not that I was just shoved out of the door and told to have fun however I cared to; I was taught about the dangers and warned of possible consequences.  And my relationship with my parents (and I hope my chidren's with me) was such that I respected them, and took what they said seriously - but without it inhibiting my willingness to interact with and learn about the world.  So yes, at age seven I was sent out to cycle into town after dark for choir practice; but when one time my bike was stolen during that practice, I also knew to go to the police station to report it, and so that they could call my parents to fetch me home.

I am trying to contrast this with a tendency I see towards laziness in parenting.  An unwillingness to sufficiently engage with one's children, and intead to restrict them to keep them safe rather than actually helping them learn about the real world and what risk actually is and how to assess it for oneself.

It is because I was allowed, and often encouraged, to push boundaries that I have made that a part of my life, and continue to engage actively with the world in new ways even after retirement.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #122 on: 08 Aug 2018, 23:26 »

Jim's business involves industrial mixers that can break an arm - a boobooed fingernail isn't going to look all that impressive to him.

It's different when it's your kid.  My wife was training to be a PA and had done an ER tour, seeing the working end of several bloody messes.  When our 3 year old daughter bonked her head and it was bleeding, I held her for a bit to calm her before bandaging it up.  My wife came home and saw the blood on the shoulder of my shirt after I'd told her about it, and she nearly puked.

I assume your daughter is your first? I promise you that by the time she's Sam's age, most things upsetting, gross and horrifying will have desensitized you and your wife. If you have more kids or spend time around a number of her friends (which can happen more when you have an only), all the more so. I remember freaking out and taking my kid to the hospital a black eye at 2 (it was scary swelling up so fast). Now, when she injures herself like that, it's like "Again?" And it's a list of check the injury, ice, ibuprofen, etc... Meanwhile, I get a few more grey hairs.  :lol:

My kiddo's 9, and I can't imagine suing anyone over her losing a nail. I may not trust her to alone again with that person at her current age, but if she was a young teenager I may actually chalk it more up as a life lesson than blame the adult in charge. Kids cannot be bubble wrapped forever. I've nicked myself with Dremel before, and I managed to slice off the tip of my index finger through the nail twice with an Xacto knife. Those kinds are injuries happen all the time.

Sam, however, does have impulse issues a little greater than other kids her age. I do agree with everyone that Faye should never have left her alone. She should have asked Bubbles to watch Sam until she was done in the bathroom. Close supervision is a given with any beginners who use power tools (even sewing machines) for the first time. Sam also probably should have had gloves on (though I find them cumbersome for something as little as a Dremel).

It was our first kid.  It was also 25 years ago.  Our second child was much more active, and was a "frequent flyer" at the local emergency room.  Somewhere around the age of 5 we started making her tell the nuns (it was a catholic-run hospital) what had happened to her, because most of the time it was so improbable.  Falling off a fire hydrant, slicing her foot open climbing on a pile of shale in flip-flops, the cat slicing the inside of her cheek... this is the kid who got stuck in the shower because she climbed the wall in the corner, and was too scared of falling to get back down. 

Eleven years later, she was the one who came down with thyroid cancer. It triggered an auto-immune response that made the doctors miss the tumor for four months.  The immune response destroyed a large part of her autonomous, sympathetic and reflexive nervous systems before they found the cancer. 

9 years cancer free, but she has a feeding tube and a wheelchair now. 



It hasn't slowed her down, and everyone at the hospital knows her name.  Still a frequent flyer. 
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #123 on: 08 Aug 2018, 23:32 »

We've seen this side to Bubbles before, specifically when she counselled Winslow about how best to deal with May but the politics sort of obscured what Jeph was really saying. What he was saying is that Bubbles does have a strong nurturing and parental side to her. Faye's approach is different but she's just as good with kids in her own way (specifically in directing their play so that dangerous instincts are controlled).

I know this might sound weird but is Jeph taking this in the direction of Faye and Bubbles ultimately adopting a child? Or at least telling us that this is something that they could do and make it work?

Panel 1 really does confirm in my mind that Sam has issues with social interaction of some sort. Interacting with Faye and the AIs at the repair shop seem to be a big thing for her right now.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #124 on: 08 Aug 2018, 23:34 »

Quote from: ThrillHo
I am frankly baffled that I'm the only person so far arguing in against leaving literal children unsupervised with power tools

I don't think you're the only one. The way I read the discussion, though, is that there's  lot of push back against the idea of litigation.

My point of view: it wasn't very wise of Faye to leave her alone. Starting her on a dremwel, where this is about the worst that can happen, with the  safety gear provided, was.

Gloves, and other safety gear don't always help, especially if it doesn't fit right. It's better to have  firm grip on  your tool and not be protected in case it slips, than be protected and virtually sure it will slip.

Incidentally , that might be a good metaphor for parenting as well. It's better to  protective, and give them  clear understanding of risk, and experience in handling it , than just give a set of restrictions , which doesn't build any kind of skill, so they are practically guaranteed to get in trouble later on.

As an aside, all I had when learning to use power tools , was eye protection, and my father's supervision. And not even eye protection for a dremel. I must admit to freehanding most of what I've used  dremel on, even if it's metal.


« Last Edit: 09 Aug 2018, 03:02 by Cornelius »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #125 on: 09 Aug 2018, 00:10 »

We've seen this side to Bubbles before, specifically when she counselled Winslow about how best to deal with May but the politics sort of obscured what Jeph was really saying. What he was saying is that Bubbles does have a strong nurturing and parental side to her. Faye's approach is different but she's just as good with kids in her own way (specifically in directing their play so that dangerous instincts are controlled).

I know this might sound weird but is Jeph taking this in the direction of Faye and Bubbles ultimately adopting a child? Or at least telling us that this is something that they could do and make it work?

This is a little unusual, but your thinking almost precisely parallels mine here.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #126 on: 09 Aug 2018, 00:55 »

I think Faye always has been the impulse and impulse control, while Bubbles has been the rational side to everything. That's how their dynamic works. It's why Sam likes Faye, similar impulsiveness, but with the lack of control - and that's why I think Jim lets Sam hang out with Faye and Bubbles. Faye does indulge Sam's impulses, but in a controlled manner. And Bubbles will dial both down in case it's a terrible idea.

I believe Faye was almost as freaked out by the incident as Sam was, but again Bubbles kept a cool head. There's no way Sam can fib how she lost her fingernail and got it bandaged probably professionally, at least not for long.
Bubbles gave Sam a good lesson there, maybe even two. Firstly, she can trust them (they won't "rat her out"), and secondly certain things can't be avoided, and better take care of them on your own terms. (also, it probably will teach Sam how to handle Jim better).


Seems to me I used the word 'Impulse' a lot in my first paragraph here. Looks like I have poor impulse control. Also, is that a raccoon?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #127 on: 09 Aug 2018, 03:35 »

While I'm not a fan of Faye, I find it hard to find her at fault here. Kids do stupid stuff and a Dremel is barely a power tool.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #128 on: 09 Aug 2018, 05:04 »

Bubbles running officer-qualities.exe there.

"That was the old trick; getting 'em to believe it was their own idea."
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #129 on: 09 Aug 2018, 07:41 »

Project Bubbles was an experimental program - I doubt very much that the Army would introduce a 'droid officer without first making sure AIs can function as enlisted personnel.  The brass would want to see if an AI would be accepted as a comrade, and then see if the AI emerges as a natural leader.  Only then would formal advancement in rank begin. 

I see her as a junior NCO with both her superiors and peers recognizing that she was functioning at a much higher level, waiting only until time-in-grade requirements had been met before promoting her.

Bubbles was definitely officer material, but it sounds like the program was terminated before she could advance that far.

As for Union Robotics' civil liability - forget it.  The injury isn't going to result in any permanent disability or disfigurement, especially since Sam has probably already acquired enough dings, dents, and scars to preclude her ever pursuing a career as a hand model.  A lost index finger is worth a little over $10K in Massachusetts these days, but that's permanent loss of function.  A finger nail might be worth a couple hundred dollars at the outside.  You'd need to lose at least a joint or two before any attorney is going to take the case on contingency, and I don't see Jim as the sort to go looking for that kind of a payday anyhow.

Now if the state agency that regulates industrial safety catches wind of the incident, they may be in for a bureaucratic heap o' trouble.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #130 on: 09 Aug 2018, 08:10 »

Note: I am pretty passionate about this particular topic, and many topics, and realise this can come across as aggression. I just really, really love discussion, and challenging my own attitudes through talking to people I disagree with. None of the below is intended aggressively, I'm just enthusiastic to discuss it, all is in good faith!

How many of the people here referring to what is and isn't good parenting are parents themselves, or have ever been responsible for the care of teenagers?

I don't think you understand how negligence works in this context, or at the very least, how the law tends to say it works, regardless of whether you share the law's opinion.

The point here is not 'when I was a kid I was left unsupervised and didn't die, nowadays kids need to be wrapped in bubblewrap.' The point here is that you were lucky. And 99.9% of people are lucky. And 0.1% of people are the 14 year old kid, left unsupervised by a 'responsible' adult, be that a teacher, a friend, or a parent, who does get fucking killed by one of these contraptions. That is what the law is there to prevent, because not a single one of those should ever happen.

One thing we do agree on is that it is impossible to keep your kid safe at all times, but there is definitely a middle ground between bubblewrap and not being left in a position where you could have done permanent damage.

This is a forum where attitudes and opinions are frequently challenged, and I am frankly baffled that I'm the only person so far arguing in against leaving literal children unsupervised with power tools simply because you guys managed to lose just a nail, rather than a finger or a hand, and presumably your tendon repaired itself, rather than costing you sensation or dexterity in that hand.

Yes it was a lapse of judgement on Faye's part and yes she hold responsibility for the incident however my anecdote was more to say that sometimes it doesn't matter how attentive the adult is some kids will find a way and once that happens it is how everyone reacts (or overreacts) that matters.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #131 on: 09 Aug 2018, 09:00 »

I'm going to say that we can be more precise than "unsupervised".

Sam was under orders, then left unattended for minutes, but with a responsible adult nearby who can move very fast.

It was inadequate supervision for someone like Sam. Even that is clearer in hindsight.

Let's see, we can certainly compare Faye's level of care to the balance of productivity, education, and safety that occupational safety law requires. Inarguably she has fallen short.

Should I start a "Free Range Kids" thread in DISCUSS or in RELATE?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #132 on: 09 Aug 2018, 10:39 »

Note: I am pretty passionate about this particular topic, and many topics, and realise this can come across as aggression. I just really, really love discussion, and challenging my own attitudes through talking to people I disagree with. None of the below is intended aggressively, I'm just enthusiastic to discuss it, all is in good faith!


I'm actually guessing a lot of these statements have a huge cultural influence in-bedded in them.
I'm quite surprised by the extend of some of the reactions here. Suing someone for this?
In my European country (the Netherlands) that would be unheard of.
There is a large believe in "don't be stupid". And this level of supervision is in general seen as adequate.
Moreover, similar treatments are standard in our education system.
Although i did a mostly academic oriented education, we had quite some basic wood/acrylic work in school; handling of hammers, basic sawing use etc was handled at 10-11. We had some basic training in using machine saws and drills at 14-15 with similar instruction level STANDARD.

To me Sam acts quite extra-ordinarily 'stupid' at this moment - and the consequences are also relatively minor.
Which is partly due to the fact that Faye gave her a relatively 'simple' (certainly compared to what I've dealt with) tool.

I can totally understand if people wouldn't be comfortable to have their kids handling these tools themselves, but to judge this to such an extend seem a bit detached from the wider perspective to me.

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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #133 on: 09 Aug 2018, 14:07 »

I'm quite surprised by the extend of some of the reactions here. Suing someone for this?
In my European country (the Netherlands) that would be unheard of.
Unfortunately, we USAians are an increasingly litigious society and some of our more dubious practices are attorney driven.  (I work for lawyers - some are the most ethical people you will ever meet, but others, well, not so much.)  In addition, we have fifty separate state court systems plus the Federal government and the territories, each with its own twist on rules of evidence and so on.  That makes for plenty of opportunities for court shopping, looking for a venue that tends to return large judgements on certain sorts of cases.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #134 on: 09 Aug 2018, 17:06 »

I've started a thread in RELATE about risk tolerance in child rearing in general, and of course the discussion about Sam can continue here.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #135 on: 09 Aug 2018, 18:31 »

New comic...

... and after reading panel 3, I can't picture Jim's voice as any other but Hank Hill's voice.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #136 on: 09 Aug 2018, 18:42 »

Strange that Jim wouldn’t have a stronger gag reflex working around food.  Mold and vermin go with the territory.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #137 on: 09 Aug 2018, 18:45 »

Some people can handle food grossness, but get queasy at any sort of bodily harm.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #138 on: 09 Aug 2018, 18:56 »

Someone earlier mentioned gloves -- you NEVER wear gloves around rotating machinery.

 

Ahhh... I never thought about it, but it actually makes sense. I have an aunt who lost her upper arm when she was Sam's age. Her sleeve got caught in machinery on my grandpa's farm. It happened so fast!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #139 on: 09 Aug 2018, 18:57 »

Strange that Jim wouldn’t have a stronger gag reflex working around food.  Mold and vermin go with the territory.

Or just being a parent—especially of a child like Sam who is bound to have had many childhood injuries.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #140 on: 09 Aug 2018, 21:36 »

Some people can handle food grossness, but get queasy at any sort of bodily harm.

It's the other way around with me, I don't mind bodily injury as I've already experienced the worst of it by nearly losing my arm when I ripped open my bicep climbing over a fence...get me near fish or onions and I can barely contain my stomach.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #141 on: 09 Aug 2018, 21:57 »

Panel 5: The moment that Jim remembers just how difficult it is to supervise Sam.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #142 on: 09 Aug 2018, 22:10 »

Well, at least Sam owned it up.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #143 on: 09 Aug 2018, 23:18 »

There is a lot of depth in this strip if you look. We can see just how deeply Jim cares for Sam; he does the usual male thing of masking it with anger but he's very upset that she's been hurt and nothing is more important to him than her well-being. Then you look at the photo of Sam in front of the Washington Monument and you realise that Jim values and loves her energy and the joy she finds in life. Then you see panels 4 to 6 and how he reacts to her confession and tears; he knows when she is being sincere.

Jim's job means that he doesn't spend enough time with Sam (certainly not as much as he would like) but he genuinely wants to do the right thing by her. I think he realises that, for a personality like Sam's, that might not be the obvious thing.

Finally, I find myself wondering just what was that previous incident to which Sam refers to in panel 6.

Panel 5: The moment that Jim remembers just how difficult it is to supervise Sam.

Personally, I think that's Jim processing just how sincere Sam is being and, as a consequence, just how important to her that her relationship with Faye has become.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #144 on: 09 Aug 2018, 23:56 »

While I am not exactly a fan of Sam, I think her being honest with her father and accepting the possible consequences (which I would view as 'dire' in this case, if it meant not being allowed to visit Faye and Bubbles for a while) deserves respect. 

I still wonder though if what happened in the shop will be the topic of a small discussion between Bubbles and Faye… Not in a "What the fuck did you think?" kind of way. More to the effect that they just cannot afford to make mistakes right now. If they fuck up, their business is done. This little accident could work as the ideal 'warning shot'.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #145 on: 10 Aug 2018, 00:04 »

'this time'...

I fully agree with Tova; at some point Jim realises keeping Sam safe is not an easy task, and there has been incidents on his watch as well. Small accidents can help avoiding big accidents. Live and learn...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #146 on: 10 Aug 2018, 00:30 »

Positive point of view: Taking responsiblity is a real sign of growth
Negative point of view: Nice reverse psychology manipulation, Sam!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #147 on: 10 Aug 2018, 01:57 »

Positive point of view: Taking responsiblity is a real sign of growth
Negative point of view: Nice reverse psychology manipulation, Sam!

Honestly, I think what she says is somewhere between the two. There can be a hint of calculation to her words *as well* as genuine feeling of responsibility. Human thought processes are complicated and full of contradictions.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #148 on: 10 Aug 2018, 03:01 »

Positive point of view: Taking responsiblity is a real sign of growth
Negative point of view: Nice reverse psychology manipulation, Sam!

I don't think Sam wants to guilt trip Jim into something he doesn't want to do. She is perfectly aware that not going to the shop anymore is quite a possible consequence to this.

Concerning the whole situation, Faye could've realised this was not going to end well, starting with Sam trying to "freehand" it.
It quite definetly was a warning shot for everyone involved. Serious enough to not be taken lightly, but nothing with lasting (physical) effect.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3801-3805 (6-10 August 2018)
« Reply #149 on: 10 Aug 2018, 05:07 »

SAM uses REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY on DAD!

It's Super Effective!
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