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The denouement of Faye & Bubbles' first time

17 (32.7%)

Guest Strips!

0 (0%)

It's a Big Deal (Reaction to Faybles)

1 (1.9%)

Bubbles uses Psych Warfare on Pintsize

6 (11.5%)

Emily ponders mating practices of Dinosaurs

2 (3.8%)

Anthony Jones and Pintsize's group therapy

0 (0%)

"It's YOU who is the dork about it!"

1 (1.9%)

"Screaming Internally" face

2 (3.8%)

Brun, Clinton, Elliott doing the foot-in-mouth tango

3 (5.8%)

Roko: "You have soda bread?"

3 (5.8%)

Clinton explains about his father

0 (0%)

Bubbles gets a makeover!

0 (0%)

"Don't ever get romantically involved with a business partner."

0 (0%)

Swordsmary Stabitha gets a spray!

2 (3.8%)

Permanent Sex Hair

3 (5.8%)

Samantha vs. a Dremel

1 (1.9%)

"She's being brave, you twit." (with disappearing glasses!)

3 (5.8%)

Under the Sea with Hanners and Winslow!

4 (7.7%)

Claire's exam anxiety and Pintsize

2 (3.8%)

Pintsize gives Marten a clue-by-dildo upside the head!

2 (3.8%)

Total Members Voted: 49

[jwhouk]

And one of those mega polls to look back at the summer of 2018!

RIP John McCain, btw.

[chris73]

My wife, back in the day, wanted to be a librarian so following the advice at the time she went and got a double degree in English/History (shes book smart), once she graduated she discovered that she'd need a degree in IT so being heartily sick of studying by then she said bugger that and is now working in a completely different field, that was roughly 15 - 20 years ago

So basically Martens right and Claire needs to stop acting like a little kid and accept that what she wants she might not get, yeah it sucks but thats just how it is so either accept it or don't but its not going to change

[wlewisiii]

My wife, back in the day, wanted to be a librarian so following the advice at the time she went and got a double degree in English/History (shes book smart), once she graduated she discovered that she'd need a degree in IT so being heartily sick of studying by then she said bugger that and is now working in a completely different field, that was roughly 15 - 20 years ago

I never finished my degree but it wouldn't have helped my job prospects much anyway - a Philosophy/EngLit double major is the dictionary definition of an utterly useless but fun to get degree. I work as a hotel clerk and don't mind that; I've had far far worse.

So basically Martens right and Claire needs to stop acting like a little kid and accept that what she wants she might not get, yeah it sucks but thats just how it is so either accept it or don't but its not going to change

Yes.

The other hand is to try anyway. You can't win if you don't play the game.

[chris73]

The other hand is to try anyway. You can't win if you don't play the game.

Agreed, Who dares wins and all that

[TheEvilDog]

I originally did a degree in Biomedical Engineering, having been told that I would be designing new parts or working on new devices.

Two years in, I was then told that my degree would make me just qualified to operate a lathe.

I said screw it, dropped out and went on to get qualifications in Applied Science, Quality Assurance, Business, IT and Social Media Management. And I'm in a job that is kinda fun and allows me a degree of flexibility.

With regards to the comic, I'm getting the impression that no one has ever said "No" to Claire. I'm not saying she's spoiled or anything like, but I feel like no one has ever sat her down and said that sometimes dream never come to pass. Part of growing up is realising that yeah, those dreams crash and burn, but its not the end of the world. You build up from that, you find a new dream and you reach for that. And if that dream burns, you build up again and reach further. You are always building on the past to make it to the future.

And here, it just feels like if Claire doesn't pass the exam, she has nothing else to reach for.

[chris73]

With regards to the comic, I'm getting the impression that no one has ever said "No" to Claire. I'm not saying she's spoiled or anything like, but I feel like no one has ever sat her down and said that sometimes dream never come to pass. Part of growing up is realising that yeah, those dreams crash and burn, but its not the end of the world. You build up from that, you find a new dream and you reach for that. And if that dream burns, you build up again and reach further. You are always building on the past to make it to the future.

And here, it just feels like if Claire doesn't pass the exam, she has nothing else to reach for.

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

This did a massive disservice to a lot of people who ended up going to university and then dropping out, with massive loans of course, and discovering that there are other options (my path started in the military) out there for everyone

I'm wondering if Claire can only see one way, the way of the librarian, as the only path to happiness and fulfilment?
 

[Carl-E]

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

This did a massive disservice to a lot of people who ended up going to university and then dropping out, with massive loans of course, and discovering that there are other options (my path started in the military) out there for everyone

You're only about 15-20 years behind America, then.  The slow strangulation of the trades in favor of the fervent belief in a college education started in the late 60's-early 70's. 


I have a Ph.D. in mathematics from a major university. 

I teach part time as an online adjunct.  My career did not go as planned, and I lost all three of the tenure track positions I'd held over the years.  Part of that is a change in the academic landscape, along with several choices I made that in hindsight were ill advised (basically, I aimed too high, and slid off the target without sticking). 

Life sometimes takes you places you'd rather not have gone.  Claire's right to be scared, but she has Marten. 



Oh, and what's this about "if we weren't dating"?  I'd say living together is about two steps past dating...

[TheEvilDog]

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

This did a massive disservice to a lot of people who ended up going to university and then dropping out, with massive loans of course, and discovering that there are other options (my path started in the military) out there for everyone

I'm wondering if Claire can only see one way, the way of the librarian, as the only path to happiness and fulfilment?

Same in Ireland from around the same time. I finished Secondary School in 2003, and from when we started in 1997, it was drilled into our heads that college and university were the only worthwhile options available to us. No one ever said we had options, that apprenticeships or training schemes were viable. Just get into Uni or an Institute.

Which, looking back, was complete bollix.

[chris73]

You're only about 15-20 years behind America, then.

Ain't that the truth 

[chris73]

Which, looking back, was complete bollix.

Yeah so many kids get made to feel like failures if they're not suited to uni plus get saddled with student loans to pay off with nothing to show for it

Someone really screwed up

[Emperor Norton]

I have been one class away from finishing a degree in electronics for so long I think I can't even finish that degree anymore.

But hey I fell backwards into an online marketing and social media management job where I grew with the new division of a company to the point that if I left half our marketing would fall apart. I get paid well in something I'm surprisingly good at, that I would have never guessed 10 years ago, in a field I actually like (video games).

[shanejayell]

"So you'd kill me for my job?"

"I'm not answering that."

*later.....*

"Does this coffee taste funny?"

*THUMP*

"Yay! Employed!"

Or not....

[SeattleCrochetWoman]

My wife, back in the day, wanted to be a librarian so following the advice at the time she went and got a double degree in English/History (shes book smart), once she graduated she discovered that she'd need a degree in IT so being heartily sick of studying by then she said bugger that and is now working in a completely different field, that was roughly 15 - 20 years ago

So basically Martens right and Claire needs to stop acting like a little kid and accept that what she wants she might not get, yeah it sucks but thats just how it is so either accept it or don't but its not going to change

Well, yeah, but maybe give her a chance to mourn her dream a little bit? I mean, she just got out of denial. Just because she doesn’t immediately accept the death of a dream doesn’t mean she never will.

[derris_kharlan]

“please don’t take this as an attack but...”

“I’m totally going to deny any struggles you’ve had and ignore the point you are trying to make by pointing out you had something fortunate happen in your life that I’m jealous of.”

I’m not trying to be a jerk but...
I’m not racist but...
I’m not trying to belittle you but...

Geez Claire, there is a way to talk about your anxieties and worries without dumping on Marten.

[sitnspin]

His "point" was a meaningless platitude. "Everything will just work out, it did for me" is not a point. Marten dismissing her legit concerns by pointing out he fell backwards into a job he had no qualifications for is not helpful. He means well, but everything Claire said was true.

[brasca]

I voted for human-AI mating which is a beautiful thing when tastefully done.

I think this conversation may be why Claire was reluctant to talk about all this.  Marten is lucky to have the job he’s got and Claire can’t rely on the same.  She doesn’t want to attack him about it, but she’s right and this could easily be taken the wrong way, but they’re having a heart to heart talk which will diffuse a potentially touchy subject.  Good for them.

[Tova]

I think that her response to his "look at me!" assurance was on point, and wouldn't have sounded remotely like an attack if she hadn't denied it. Twice.

[brasca]

"So you'd kill me for my job?"

"I'm not answering that."

*later.....*

"Does this coffee taste funny?"

*THUMP*

"Yay! Employed!"

Or not....

Well there is the prison library although I think she’d prefer to be on the other side.  Seriously that might actually be one possibility since I had a colleague who graduated with an MA in Library Science and he works for the Corrections Department Library.

[Busch]

I always want to tell people that there's really only one way to be "privileged" that's actually real and works. It's not race or money or where you were born. It's connections. If you're privileged then you inherited some good ones from your parents. If your dad is the CEO or friends with the CEO then he can probably get you a better job opportunity than you deserve.

The real goal of anyone wanting to get ahead, then, is to make connections. This is the whole purpose of sites like LinkedIn. You never know when someone you worked with 5 years ago is going to find themselves in a great position, looking to bring more people in, and hopefully they remember you as a good worker, or at least not a douchebag (and hopefully you kept in touch).

Getting ahead with no connections is very, very difficult. Even if you land a great job, it'll dry up one day and you may be back to square one.

Marten had connections. It's way more common than Claire seems to realize or admit. She acts like it's a fluke but it's not. If you managed to inherit good ones then congratulations, you won the life lottery. If you're a standoffish bitter loner then you're probably going to have a hard time.

[BenRG]

Frankly, given how much she and Tai butts heads, I'm genuinely surprised to read that Claire is jealous of Marten's job. Of course, it is probably the fact that he works in a library that's the issue here, not necessarily the job or the specific location.

IIRC, back in the good old days, Marten told Faye and Dora that his dream job was professional music criticism as a back-up just in case Deathmřle didn't make it that big. So, yeah, Claire hit the nail on the head here and maybe she needed to hear this. Although she's put a lot of herself into her Library Science academic career, Marten is a warning that you don't always get your dream job and, sometimes, you have to make do with a job that doesn't suck with people who you don't despise in an organisation whose ethics aren't repulsive.

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life fulfilment?

In the UK, this one hit home in the mid-90s and it's most concrete outcomes have been a whole new class of chronically unemployable graduates with huge, unserviceable personal debts and people entering formerly-vocational professions like nursing with totally unrealistic expectations of the level of seniority and deference they will receive. This, in turn, has led to a recruitment crisis in said professions because no-one wants to study for years in college and go onto collecting bed-pans and taking temperatures every hour.

[derris_kharlan]

His "point" was a meaningless platitude. "Everything will just work out, it did for me" is not a point. Marten dismissing her legit concerns by pointing out he fell backwards into a job he had no qualifications for is not helpful. He means well, but everything Claire said was true.

Meaningless? I very much disagree. His point is that just because life doesn’t go exactly according to some grand master plan doesn’t mean it’s hopeless and everything will be bad. He uses himself as an example of ending up in a good place that he didn’t plan on. He wasn’t at all trying to say “hey, becoming a librarian is easy” yet that’s what Claire turned it in to. She missed his point entirely AND put him down in the process.

[Cornelius]

Getting ahead with no connections is very, very difficult. Even if you land a great job, it'll dry up one day and you may be back to square one.

That's exactly the problem my brother has. Even getting an unpaid internship is nigh impossible, if you don't have any connections in the sector. Hard work and building your own network, can work out in the long run. But it's long and hard work.

Frankly, given how much she and Tai butts heads, I'm genuinely surprised to read that Claire is jealous of Marten's job.

I might be mistaken, but I seem to remember a strip that implied, at least, that Claire thought even Tai shouldn't hold the position she does. It might be Tai's job she's after.

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

Seems much the same here. Of course, it's compounded by the fact that even some of the most basic jobs insist on qualifications - even if it's just cleaning. On the other hand, we don't have the same kind of fees - so the student loan issue is close to nonexistent. But it does mean that it's getting hard to find good tradesmen. The past decade has seen a stronger stress on trying to direct children back towards the trades. But then, the problem is they succeeded rather too well in convincing the current generation of parents that that was a second rate choice.

[jesslc]

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I don't think Marten even knew Tai before he started working with her. They became friends later. Or is Claire referring to someone else? (Who?)

So while Claire has a point that connections often play a part in getting a job, that wasn't what happened with Marten. It was purely Tai's unconventional approach to hiring. Well, he heard about a potential position due to Colette (I think) but she wasn't "in the building" and he didn't get the job because of her.

[pwhodges]

Getting ahead with no connections is very, very difficult. Even if you land a great job, it'll dry up one day and you may be back to square one.

That's only one of many, many perspectives and ranges of experience.  Taking just one anecdotal counter-example, it bears no relationship whatsoever to my own life's work experience.

[Pennepasta]

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life fulfilment?

In the UK, this one hit home in the mid-90s and it's most concrete outcomes have been a whole new class of chronically unemployable graduates with huge, unserviceable personal debts and people entering formerly-vocational professions like nursing with totally unrealistic expectations of the level of seniority and deference they will receive. This, in turn, has led to a recruitment crisis in said professions because no-one wants to study for years in college and go onto collecting bed-pans and taking temperatures every hour.
[/quote]

As someone who was sold the "uni or die" idea in the UK, a lot of it was the promise that you'd walk out of uni straight into a job. Never mind that physics has no direct applications outside of academia. Most people I knew at uni didn't end up with roles even vaguely related to physics (which most of us studied). My personal issue was more a motivation and suitability for academia one; I've since learnt ways to motivate myself, but academia doesn't fit well with me. I'm busy retraining in accounting, so hopefully getting back on track. But having few contacts in the area sucks.

Hilariously, the only person I know who walked straight out of academia into a related role is my partner. She did English and history at uni, tried and failed at pgce (teaching qualifications) for a year, then did a ma in library and information management. Walked straight into a college library and settled well. And English and history is the degree they said was useless!

[kyraeus]

His "point" was a meaningless platitude. "Everything will just work out, it did for me" is not a point. Marten dismissing her legit concerns by pointing out he fell backwards into a job he had no qualifications for is not helpful. He means well, but everything Claire said was true.

Yeah, going with a 'nope' on that one.  Life can be a completely random shot in the dark sometimes.  Marten didn't seem to be trying to dismiss anything entirely, just mitigate it.  Claire's kind of doing a classic 'glass is half empty' view here, and the honest counter to that is glass is half full.  'Yes, bad things can happen, and you can have things not go to plan...  But then good things can always happen even if it's just from being in the right place at the right time.'

Also, call me just a bit crazy, but I'm just not fond of her attitude.  I agree with some of the other comments to the tune of her never having heard 'no' about things growing up.   *sigh* This will be misconstrued as an attack, which it isn't, but legitimately in my experience many of the people I know, at least around here, who have done the transformative thing, have some symptoms like this, attitude-wise.  I could be entirely wrong, maybe it's a defensive reaction to all the negatives in their lives. (you know, along the lines of 'I'll be damned if I'll be told who and what I can't be'), or something like that.  Or it could just be a Claire thing.

Either which way, wasn't a huge fan of her essentially crapping on Marten for being (occasionally clueless) Marten last couple episodes, and to now crap on his attempts to make her feel better as well? Eh. 

Pretty clear to me she just doesn't WANT to feel better.  When someone tries to lighten your mood and help you not be overwhelmed, the appropriate response is NOT slapping the hand they reached out to you.  Least where I grew up anyway.

Last thing I want to point out is the 'again, this isn't an attack...'.   I've run into this a couple of times.  If you have to point out TWICE that something isn't an attack, then you probably ought to rethink what you're about to say.  Case in point, I did ONCE above, and STILL put some extra thought into it.  As my ex-wife used to say, 'Saying "Don't take this the wrong way", doesn't give you unlimited license to be an ass.'. 

'I need you to understand where I'm coming from', after all this basically my read would be she's coming from a place where she hasn't, doesn't, and isn't interested in considering anything except the (tm) 'One True Path' that she's divined for herself, and if/when it probably fails massively, given both the current ratio of jobs/collegiates in america and the history of the comic's characters, she's pretty much out of luck without EXACTLY the same kind of dumb luck of Marten's she's been dumping on a bit here.  Adaptation is key, and I'll be surprised to see her do that moving forward.

God, I'm getting old and it shows.

[LustFilledRunza]

Perhaps this is the start of the Who Killed Marten Reed arc.    Of course suspicion falls immediately upon Claire... but upon closer investigation it turns out a lot of people had an axe to grind with Mr. Reed...  The killer turns out to be the absolute LAST person we suspect,  the motive being totally justifiable too -- to the point where we all sympathize with the killer and genuinely feel bad when Bubbles crushes his or her head like an over-ripe melon.    The plot twist comes when Hanners introduces Marten's replacement clone,  Martin Reed -- because according to Heir To The Empire clones can't spell their original names correctly.

[dutchrvl]

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

Seems much the same here. Of course, it's compounded by the fact that even some of the most basic jobs insist on qualifications - even if it's just cleaning. On the other hand, we don't have the same kind of fees - so the student loan issue is close to nonexistent. But it does mean that it's getting hard to find good tradesmen. The past decade has seen a stronger stress on trying to direct children back towards the trades. But then, the problem is they succeeded rather too well in convincing the current generation of parents that that was a second rate choice.

Message string above edited for brevity by me

Perhaps you're also from the Netherlands, but that's exactly the issue here as well. About 5 years ago or so, it was again vocalized by the Dutch government as one of their main goals to have 80% (it may have been even higher) of the population have at least a college degree, somehow implying that the college graduation rate is a main measure of a country's success.
And yes, the past decades have really led to both parents and children being convinced that not going to college basically meant wasting your life and tossing any chance of success out the window.

Of course this has inevitably led to a shortage of good people in trades (and way too many people with business degrees) and a resulting slow but steady increase in appreciation for those trades. Unfortunately this doesn't yet mean more people end up in those fields. After all, everybody wants tradespeople (e.g. good plumbers), yet they all want other people to do it. Presumably this won't change until the shortage leads to skyrocketing service fees. After all, there is no better incentive to choose a profession than the prospect of good money!   

[jwhouk]

Yanno, sometimes getting your dream job - or even a job beyond your wildest dreams - ain't all it's cracked up to be.

I'm reading Paul McCartney - A Life, and at the point where I'm at, being at the top of your game can really suck rocks.

[dutchrvl]

Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I don't think Marten even knew Tai before he started working with her. They became friends later. Or is Claire referring to someone else? (Who?)

So while Claire has a point that connections often play a part in getting a job, that wasn't what happened with Marten. It was purely Tai's unconventional approach to hiring. Well, he heard about a potential position due to Colette (I think) but she wasn't "in the building" and he didn't get the job because of her.

No you remember correctly. Marten getting the job had nothing to do with connections. He saw the job opening on the window, went inside, passed the 'test' (iambic pentameter) and got hired. Not sure where Claire got the impression that connections played a role.

Besides, I might be wrong, but isn't Marten 'only' a library clerk or something? There are definitely actual librarians there as well, and Tai herself of course (not sure about her title). I realize that in a competitive field sometimes starting at a relatively low level is a good way to get your foot in the door, but to say many people with better/more degrees than Claire would kill for Marten's job (i.e. not a librarian) seems to be exaggerating a bit.

[dutchrvl]

His "point" was a meaningless platitude. "Everything will just work out, it did for me" is not a point. Marten dismissing her legit concerns by pointing out he fell backwards into a job he had no qualifications for is not helpful. He means well, but everything Claire said was true.

Meaningless? I very much disagree. His point is that just because life doesn’t go exactly according to some grand master plan doesn’t mean it’s hopeless and everything will be bad. He uses himself as an example of ending up in a good place that he didn’t plan on. He wasn’t at all trying to say “hey, becoming a librarian is easy” yet that’s what Claire turned it in to. She missed his point entirely AND put him down in the process.

I think that Marten's point was indeed what you took from it, but he worded it a bit weirdly. He could've/should've said something like "even if it doesn't go exactly how you expected it to go, that doesn't mean there are no other options/that you failed/that you missed out on the 1 path to happiness/ etc.
Instead, the way he worded it was more like "everything will work out, I promise", which is not great advice, as you'd still need to work hard on finding a diifferent path for yourself.

[Cornelius]

(click to show/hide)

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

Seems much the same here. Of course, it's compounded by the fact that even some of the most basic jobs insist on qualifications - even if it's just cleaning. On the other hand, we don't have the same kind of fees - so the student loan issue is close to nonexistent. But it does mean that it's getting hard to find good tradesmen. The past decade has seen a stronger stress on trying to direct children back towards the trades. But then, the problem is they succeeded rather too well in convincing the current generation of parents that that was a second rate choice.

Message string above edited for brevity by me

Perhaps you're also from the Netherlands, but that's exactly the issue here as well. About 5 years ago or so, it was again vocalized by the Dutch government as one of their main goals to have 80% (it may have been even higher) of the population have at least a college degree, somehow implying that the college graduation rate is a main measure of a country's success.
And yes, the past decades have really led to both parents and children being convinced that not going to college basically meant wasting your life and tossing any chance of success out the window.

Of course this has inevitably led to a shortage of good people in trades (and way too many people with business degrees) and a resulting slow but steady increase in appreciation for those trades. Unfortunately this doesn't yet mean more people end up in those fields. After all, everybody wants tradespeople (e.g. good plumbers), yet they all want other people to do it. Presumably this won't change until the shortage leads to skyrocketing service fees. After all, there is no better incentive to choose a profession than the prospect of good money!

Just south of there

It's not just plumbers; it's butchers, carpenters, anything, really. Mind, a lot is being picked up by workers from the East (stereotypically Polish and Romanians), and by migrants of all sorts.

There's also the fact, that there are quite a few people around, that are simply not happy doing the kind of work they have a degree for. Pressure towards higher education is not always a good thing. I mean, yes, democratising higher education is good - anyone who wants, and deserves the opportunity, should be able to take it. The problem is, though, that from leveling the field socio-economically, they've gone to seeing it as a general requirement, almost.

Mind, I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to go and pursue an education, and a degree - and that should be affordable, as it still is, in our little nook of the world. It's just that, valuable as it might be as an experience, it's not for everyone, and it most certainly is not the only way to happiness.

[bhtooefr]

Marten did have some connections, though, IIRC - granted, through the person who got fired from the job that he got, but still.

[judemorrigan]

This comic made me think about how I've always thought it was a shame that the "Marten starts a music blog" thing never really took off as a plot point.  Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% down with it not having been some sort of a massive success that became his full-time job.  But ... well, I came to terms a long time a ago that it's *ok* to have a job that lets you do the things you're passionate about rather than a job that is itself something you're truly passionate about.  But while he may take his job at the library seriously, I'm not sure I ever got the sense that it was something he really *cared* about.  It just seems like there's more he could do for his own personal (rather than professional) benefit and growth.

[pwhodges]

I think Marten's music blog went the way of Jeph's...

[dutchrvl]

Marten did have some connections, though, IIRC - granted, through the person who got fired from the job that he got, but still.

Well, yes, but she didn't really get him the job or even introduced, she merely pointed out that the library might be hiring.

That's akin to me telling my friend I saw a certain job posting.

Granted, perhaps she could've introduced or recommended Marten to Tai, but usually getting referred by the person who got fired from the same job is not a good way to start your jobhunt...

[dutchrvl]

(click to show/hide)

In NZ from roughly the late 80s onwards there was a massive shift away from apprenticeships and trades as options for schoolkids and was replaced by an almost fervent belief that University was the be all and end all and that without a degree (any degree) you'd be doomed to a, at best, mediocre life

Seems much the same here. Of course, it's compounded by the fact that even some of the most basic jobs insist on qualifications - even if it's just cleaning. On the other hand, we don't have the same kind of fees - so the student loan issue is close to nonexistent. But it does mean that it's getting hard to find good tradesmen. The past decade has seen a stronger stress on trying to direct children back towards the trades. But then, the problem is they succeeded rather too well in convincing the current generation of parents that that was a second rate choice.

Message string above edited for brevity by me

Perhaps you're also from the Netherlands, but that's exactly the issue here as well. About 5 years ago or so, it was again vocalized by the Dutch government as one of their main goals to have 80% (it may have been even higher) of the population have at least a college degree, somehow implying that the college graduation rate is a main measure of a country's success.
And yes, the past decades have really led to both parents and children being convinced that not going to college basically meant wasting your life and tossing any chance of success out the window.

Of course this has inevitably led to a shortage of good people in trades (and way too many people with business degrees) and a resulting slow but steady increase in appreciation for those trades. Unfortunately this doesn't yet mean more people end up in those fields. After all, everybody wants tradespeople (e.g. good plumbers), yet they all want other people to do it. Presumably this won't change until the shortage leads to skyrocketing service fees. After all, there is no better incentive to choose a profession than the prospect of good money!

Just south of there

It's not just plumbers; it's butchers, carpenters, anything, really. Mind, a lot is being picked up by workers from the East (stereotypically Polish and Romanians), and by migrants of all sorts.

There's also the fact, that there are quite a few people around, that are simply not happy doing the kind of work they have a degree for. Pressure towards higher education is not always a good thing. I mean, yes, democratising higher education is good - anyone who wants, and deserves the opportunity, should be able to take it. The problem is, though, that from leveling the field socio-economically, they've gone to seeing it as a general requirement, almost.

Mind, I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to go and pursue an education, and a degree - and that should be affordable, as it still is, in our little nook of the world. It's just that, valuable as it might be as an experience, it's not for everyone, and it most certainly is not the only way to happiness.

Plus there is now a sort of social stigma when it comes to not having a college-degree, almost as if people feel they need a college degree as to not be seen as 'inferior'.

[Cornelius]

Marten did have some connections, though, IIRC - granted, through the person who got fired from the job that he got, but still.

Well, yes, but she didn't really get him the job or even introduced, she merely pointed out that the library might be hiring.

That's akin to me telling my friend I saw a certain job posting.

Granted, perhaps she could've introduced or recommended Marten to Tai, but usually getting referred by the person who got fired from the same job is not a good way to start your jobhunt...

Well, seems like recognising iambic pentameter was enough for him to get the job. It doesn't look like Tai knew him.

[dutchrvl]

Marten did have some connections, though, IIRC - granted, through the person who got fired from the job that he got, but still.

Well, yes, but she didn't really get him the job or even introduced, she merely pointed out that the library might be hiring.

That's akin to me telling my friend I saw a certain job posting.

Granted, perhaps she could've introduced or recommended Marten to Tai, but usually getting referred by the person who got fired from the same job is not a good way to start your jobhunt...

Well, seems like recognising iambic pentameter was enough for him to get the job. It doesn't look like Tai knew him.

Yup, see also my earlier post.
I meant she could've introduced him, but never actually did. So Claire's assertion that a 'friend in the building' somehow helped him get the job is unfair towards Marten.

Yes, Tai/SMIF may have had an unorthodox hiring practice, but Marten did pass the initial test by recognizing iambic pentameter, which extremely few people would probably be capable of. Regardless of his qualifications on paper, he clearly showed a certain skill that they were looking for, so imo he justifiably got the job. He didn't lie, didn't overstate his qualifications, didn't mislead Tai or anything to that extent; he applied, passed the test/'interview' and therefore got hired.

Whether the hiring criteria were proper ones you would expect for that position is another question altogether.

Re-reading the comic, I actually have more and more issues with Claire's arguments. She also states that Marten was "objectively unqualified". Objectively? Sounds more like subjectively according to Claire......
Let's not forget that Marten was not actually hired as a librarian. In fact, from what we have seen his job does not seem to involve any particular skills/knowledge that he would be objectively not be qualified for. It does not appear to be a position you'd need a library degree or similar to.

[OldGoat]

If Gus Augustus was as much of the sort of asshole Clinton describes,  dream crushing is quite frequently part of their standard script.  Claire's likely heard "You'll never be able to ...." plenty of times, quite possibly along with some outright hostility around gender identity. 

Note also that she's pulled off a pretty much flawless gender transition - no one she's met in strip so far has had a clue she used to be a boy unless she's told them.  To some trans people that's an accomplishment of a lifetime.   Claire's come up hard against the realization that getting the job she wants could be even more difficult.

She is, of course, putting unreasonable expectation upon herself, and compounding two issues into one.  Unless she completely freezes up, the chances of her failing her final exam are nil.  She may not ace it, but she'll pass and do well (unless she psyches herself into failure).  Getting hired is another goal and her GPA will only be a tie breaker if she's neck and neck with another candidate.

[jwhouk]

I pointed out somewhere else that Marten's job security is due to something else entirely, which was something that Claire probably doesn't know about.

Of course, if Claire did find out about it, she'd be frozen in horror for at least three days, tops.

[Cornelius]

I wonder, how much time passed between Marten getting hired, and Claire meeting him?

[dutchrvl]

She is, of course, putting unreasonable expectation upon herself, and compounding two issues into one.  Unless she completely freezes up, the chances of her failing her final exam are nil.  She may not ace it, but she'll pass and do well (unless she psyches herself into failure).  Getting hired is another goal and her GPA will only be a tie breaker if she's neck and neck with another candidate.

Above post edited for brevity

How do we know her chances of failing the exam are nil? Honest question, I simply don't remember ever getting any real indication on how well she has been doing or how easy it is for her. All I remember is that yes she is a big nerd and she is very studious and a hard worker, but I don't remember ever getting information on her performance, other than her saying herself that everybody expects her to ace the exam (which implies she has always done great in school).

Apart from that, I am not familiar how easy/hard it is to fail an exam like this one.

In the Netherlands, once you are allowed to schedule your defense (whether MS of PhD), you're pretty much guaranteed to pass. It's a public defense so if they think there's even a remote chance of failing they simply won't let you schedule a defense.

In the US, I noticed the same whenever a defense is involved (at least in the engineering fields).
It's unclear though whether Claire has just written exams (?), and how common it is to fail written exams for MS degrees in the US..

[TheEvilDog]

She is, of course, putting unreasonable expectation upon herself, and compounding two issues into one.  Unless she completely freezes up, the chances of her failing her final exam are nil.  She may not ace it, but she'll pass and do well (unless she psyches herself into failure).

I think to Claire, anything less than 100% would be a failure in her mind.

I mean, Claire isn't an idiot. She's very intelligent, has wanted to be a librarian for most of her life, so she is obviously prepared for the exam. But its the idea that she might not do absolutely well is getting to her and its that frustration that she's taking out on Marten.

[dutchrvl]

I wonder, how much time passed between Marten getting hired, and Claire meeting him?

Based on the only reasonable timeline I could find, a little under 1.5 years link

Edit: I think the time line is not that great, it seems more time has passed in the comic, in which case Marten probably was at the library at least 1.5 years when Claire showed up.

[Is it cold in here?]

Note also that she's pulled off a pretty much flawless gender transition - no one she's met in strip so far has had a clue she used to be a boy unless she's told them.  To some trans people that's an accomplishment of a lifetime.   Claire's come up hard against the realization that getting the job she wants could be even more difficult.

OK, your point is "Claire's overcome difficulties"(mod), but I want to prevent any flame fests that come from not acknowledging she was a girl from the time her brain got wired(/mod).

[Is it cold in here?]

I always want to tell people that there's really only one way to be "privileged" that's actually real and works. It's not race or money or where you were born. It's connections.

Welcome, new person!

Claire knows Hannelore. She's therefore a second-degree connection to Station on LinkedIn. Talk about friends in high places.

There's a thread in one of the other subforums about the concept of "privilege". (polite mod request)Please use it instead(/).

[TheEvilDog]

Unless Claire is thinking that she's entitled to a librarian position.

At which point, I wonder if Claire realises exactly how much of her work would be dealing with books and how much would be dealing with people, faculty, students, meetings and researchers and so on. As Claire has proven on a couple of occasions, she's not exactly good with people, in which case Claire might be in for a rude awakening.

[OldGoat]

Note also that she's pulled off a pretty much flawless gender transition - no one she's met in strip so far has had a clue she used to be a boy unless she's told them.  To some trans people that's an accomplishment of a lifetime.   Claire's come up hard against the realization that getting the job she wants could be even more difficult.

OK, your point is "Claire's overcome difficulties"(mod), but I want to prevent any flame fests that come from not acknowledging she was a girl from the time her brain got wired(/mod).

Correct.  I cast that sentence from the viewpoint of a person meeting her for the first time. 

[Neko_Ali]

Unless Claire is thinking that she's entitled to a librarian position.

At which point, I wonder if Claire realises exactly how much of her work would be dealing with books and how much would be dealing with people, faculty, students, meetings and researchers and so on. As Claire has proven on a couple of occasions, she's not exactly good with people, in which case Claire might be in for a rude awakening.

A lot of this will depend on what library she gets a job with. Most are going to be primarily customer facing like you say. Public and school libraries you are going to spend most of your time dealing with people rather than books. Private or corporate libraries it's usually the flip side. I worked for a research facility in their reference library for a while. Aside from the other people that worked there I spoke to almost no one. The majority of my work was filling out information requests from the different labs. OSHA reference sheets, finding books or articles about requested subjects in the library and microfilm and collecting/checking in/re-shelving returned materials. Of course, this was a time before Google and the internet on everyone's phones.