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What should Roko take up next?

Baking.
- 12 (26.7%)
Private Investigations!
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APC repair counseling!
- 5 (11.1%)
Accounting (Hello, Punchbot!)
- 1 (2.2%)
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Other
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Author Topic: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)  (Read 9801 times)

jwhouk

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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #200 on: 10 Oct 2018, 08:16 »

Someone needs to look up what the record for latest post after the week of a given WCDT is.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #201 on: 10 Oct 2018, 08:42 »

Someone needs to look up what the record for latest post after the week of a given WCDT is.
On the first page of the QC forums, the only thread with a significant necropost is WCDT strips 3716-3720 (9th-13th April 2018) which had a necro almost 5 months after the actual week of comics.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #202 on: 10 Oct 2018, 10:14 »

On that note, I've started a new thread to talk about this: Art, Artist, Audience: Relationships of Love and Commerce.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #203 on: 10 Oct 2018, 13:16 »

What agency does a fictional character have? How would said character have any agency the author/artist/creator does not give that character?

There are artists who report that they've been surprised by what their characters insisted on doing.

On an everyday level, my analogy to free will for a fictional character is when they are portrayed doing things that flow from their characterization. Claire and Hannelore got piercings because they both want to challenge themselves to fight anxiety. They are examples of what we'd call "agency" in real people.

The contrary case would be when a character makes a choice when portrayed as psychologically offline or as coerced.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #204 on: 10 Oct 2018, 13:19 »

This looks like a simple case of an artist with an artistic vision that they are pursuing.
You don't like that vision, or the way it is being pursued, or both.
That's perfectly acceptable. No one is obligated to follow an artist in their artistic journey.
The artist is not obligated to follow a path that anyone else desires either.

I guess I don't grok the underlying source of your concern? If an artist pursues a vision I don't enjoy, I don't devote attention to that artist anymore, or at least not the work that isn't my thing. I might tell them "your new direction isn't for me" but that is followed with "but thanks for all the art you've created." I don't expect their work to conform to my expectations unless I am commissioning a piece.

Now here is the thing about "artists"  -  you pretty much hit the nail on the head without actually pointing out the issue here yet making it out as a something positive.
The absolute narcissism when an artist says they don't need to conform to others expectations.
Without an audience they are just some schmuck somewhere doing weird stuff on on their own for their own amusement  [and not to get arrested if others find out].
An artist by "trade" that does not want to starve has to have an audience.  They can still push buttons and be non-conformist but there are limits.
So they have to meet some expectations consistently enough to not lose their audience.
Without an audience they are just another tree in the woods

Lucky for Jeph that he has enough of a following willing to support his version of creativity and the paths he has taken.
I think he takes it as a personal affront when people voice not liking his decisions, which is problematic in its own way, though he seems to be getting better at dealing with it.

Now me - I get irked when he goes all George Lucas on us, falls passionately in love with an idea or character design, runs with it .... right off a cliff or into a wall
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On the long hair subject - yes I like longer hair - I have long hair -  I have nothing against people with shaved heads and neither do they  :roll:

Interesting, you seem to equate the need for artists to make a living to having to perform/produce their art according to what their audience expects from them. I respectfully, but strongheartedly, disagree with that view.
An artist does not need to conform to anything/anyone, really (unless of course they were paid for a well-defined piece of art according to certain parameters). This has nothing to do with narcissism. They make their art the way they want to, and whether they accept a loss of audience/popularity as a result is up to them. It's the same with a small business owner who decides to completely change the design of their product. That's their prerogative. They may lose all their customers and go under, sure, but that's still their right to do.
Do artists need an audience not to starve? Sure, probably. Still does not mean they need to meet expectations. In simplistic words, they do not owe their audience their survival (by not starving).

See also my post in the separate thread about this.

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Perfectly Reasonable

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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #205 on: 10 Oct 2018, 15:04 »

Bubbles' questions about the Bar König might be profitably directed to the Girl Genius forum.

Also, defend your right to arm bears.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #206 on: 10 Oct 2018, 20:18 »

Bubbles' questions about the Bar König might be profitably directed to the Girl Genius forum.

Also, defend your right to arm bears.



Bar König? Looks like your autocorrect struck. I'd be worried if the Bear King turned out to be the bar king though.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #207 on: 11 Oct 2018, 08:04 »

Interesting, you seem to equate the need for artists to make a living to having to perform/produce their art according to what their audience expects from them. I respectfully, but strongheartedly, disagree with that view.
An artist does not need to conform to anything/anyone, really (unless of course they were paid for a well-defined piece of art according to certain parameters). This has nothing to do with narcissism. They make their art the way they want to, and whether they accept a loss of audience/popularity as a result is up to them. It's the same with a small business owner who decides to completely change the design of their product. That's their prerogative. They may lose all their customers and go under, sure, but that's still their right to do.
Do artists need an audience not to starve? Sure, probably. Still does not mean they need to meet expectations. In simplistic words, they do not owe their audience their survival (by not starving).

See also my post in the separate thread about this.

Oy vay

Is my prose that opaque?
I thought I had put it rather plainly
  • That artists can do what they want for good or ill
  • Art should challenge their audience but it is not a requirement
  • Art is entertainment yet also a social record of the times
  • Art can be used to educate or induce debate - Make people think - but if heavy handed will have the opposite effect
  • Art needs to connect to their audience at some level or else everything else is lost <- this is what seems to be overlooked

And your last statement make zero logical sense. For anyone who lives by their art there is no "probably".
Unless an "artist" has some form of support from some other source they are dependant on being appreciated to survive.
Mozart Leonardo Chopin .... Even your everyday street Busker ..... History says that if you don't have an audience or a patron YOU WILL STARVE or in the modern age, be living on social assistance.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #208 on: 11 Oct 2018, 08:42 »

Interesting, you seem to equate the need for artists to make a living to having to perform/produce their art according to what their audience expects from them. I respectfully, but strongheartedly, disagree with that view.
An artist does not need to conform to anything/anyone, really (unless of course they were paid for a well-defined piece of art according to certain parameters). This has nothing to do with narcissism. They make their art the way they want to, and whether they accept a loss of audience/popularity as a result is up to them. It's the same with a small business owner who decides to completely change the design of their product. That's their prerogative. They may lose all their customers and go under, sure, but that's still their right to do.
Do artists need an audience not to starve? Sure, probably. Still does not mean they need to meet expectations. In simplistic words, they do not owe their audience their survival (by not starving).

See also my post in the separate thread about this.

Oy vay

Is my prose that opaque?
I thought I had put it rather plainly
  • That artists can do what they want for good or ill
  • Art should challenge their audience but it is not a requirement
  • Art is entertainment yet also a social record of the times
  • Art can be used to educate or induce debate - Make people think - but if heavy handed will have the opposite effect
  • Art needs to connect to their audience at some level or else everything else is lost <- this is what seems to be overlooked

And your last statement make zero logical sense. For anyone who lives by their art there is no "probably".
Unless an "artist" has some form of support from some other source they are dependant on being appreciated to survive.
Mozart Leonardo Chopin .... Even your everyday street Busker ..... History says that if you don't have an audience or a patron YOU WILL STARVE or in the modern age, be living on social assistance.

Of course they'll have to find an audience with whatever art they produce if they want to survive based on their art alone, that much is clear. I used "probably" precisely because an artist does not necessarily starve if they lose their audience, only if they have no other means to an income. (my combining sure with probably was an unfortunate choice from my side. "Sure" was just a throwaway use of the word showing my general agreement with your comment, not meaning that artists absolutely had to have an audience to survive. )

Anyway, all I was saying is that an artist does not ow us their survival, in other words  if they decide not to meet the audience's expectations and therefore lose income and starve to death (put morbidly), that's still their prerogative.
We honestly seem to agree on all the rest anyway, your latest post is much clearer to me in that sense. Your previous one I interpreted as expecting artists to conform to expectations. I see now that that's not what you meant.
 
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Tova

Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #209 on: 11 Oct 2018, 14:01 »

Edit: Added some more quotation for further context. All bolding in the quotes is mine.

I think you're in general agreement, and I agree also.

I just wanted to highlight the one point in the thread that does appear to have been lost.

If an artist pursues a vision I don't enjoy, I don't devote attention to that artist anymore, or at least not the work that isn't my thing. I might tell them "your new direction isn't for me" but that is followed with "but thanks for all the art you've created." I don't expect their work to conform to my expectations unless I am commissioning a piece.

Now here is the thing about "artists"  -  you pretty much hit the nail on the head without actually pointing out the issue here yet making it out as a something positive.
The absolute narcissism when an artist says they don't need to conform to others expectations.

An artist does not need to conform to anything/anyone, really (unless of course they were paid for a well-defined piece of art according to certain parameters). This has nothing to do with narcissism.

I thought I had put it rather plainly
...
Art needs to connect to their audience at some level or else everything else is lost <- this is what seems to be overlooked

I think it was indeed put plainly, but here is what I think is the source of confusion in spite of agreement in most respects.

Saying that "artists need an audience" is manifestly not equivalent to saying that "artists must conform to expectations." They are two very different statements.

The first I can get behind.

The second, however, is patently incorrect. Many artists have found an audience in spite of failing to conform to expectations. Many artists have found an audience because they failed to conform to expectations.

I can't agree that has anything to do with narcissism.

Arrogance, maybe. Maybe. I personally think that you need a touch of arrogance to be an artist. To put a bit of yourself into a creation and then put it out there to inevitably be torn to shreds by people who don't comprehend the drive to create. It takes courage, and for that reason alone I don't have much time for people who feel it necessary to tell an artist they should be doing something else. Criticise if you will, that is your prerogative. However, the artist is not obliged to conform to your expectations.

P.S. One more edit:

We honestly seem to agree on all the rest anyway, your latest post is much clearer to me in that sense. Your previous one I interpreted as expecting artists to conform to expectations. I see now that that's not what you meant.

I'm not so sure. Hence my post.
« Last Edit: 11 Oct 2018, 14:37 by Tova »
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #210 on: 11 Oct 2018, 18:51 »

FWIW, I don't think artists need audiences. 

I've done plenty of things just for the sake of art, for the craftsmanship of it, for the satisfaction of creating something that hasn't existed before.

I rarely bother telling anyone else about it.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #211 on: 11 Oct 2018, 21:05 »

As an artisan (in my domains) I agree: the act of creation is it's own reward. There is another level of ...pleasure? satisfaction? that comes with completing some project of artistic or practial value. I personally find the practical more satisfying, but my daughter and her mother find the artistic ascendent, so I can not claim one is better.

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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #212 on: 11 Oct 2018, 22:27 »

How many famous artists never found, or more accurately were never found by, their audience until after they had died (sometimes of starvation)?  Getting to make a living  at doing what you love is good fortune indeed, especially for an artist.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #213 on: 12 Oct 2018, 04:33 »

This thread is certainly a very intellectual revenant ...

... we should call it Emiel Regis Rohellec Terzieff-Godefroy
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #214 on: 12 Oct 2018, 12:22 »

(Lots of text here by both of us)
I see now that that's not what you meant.
Ah, English.
Such a versatile, eclectic, yet messy language.
My verbiage skills "I think" are decent when it comes to anything technical since I am able to communicate technical issues with non-specialists in my field, though feedback does help.
Unfortunately I am barely able to tread water when it comes to actual skill with the creative use of language
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #215 on: 14 Oct 2018, 12:26 »

Many on this forum are ESL (English as a Second Language) speakers.  Thrudd, I don't know if you're one or not.  However, I do know that many native speakers - of any language - have a great deal of difficulty expressing anything further than what marketers call "WINs" (Wants, Interests and Needs).  Infants manage to express these with no language at all... 

But you're right about English.  It's incredibly flexible, messy, nuanced, and can practically be weaponized in the hands of an expert.  Word choice is ridiculously important, as is inflection (which gets lost in print). 

I have always found this forum to be a wonderful place to practice and hash out my ability to communicate what my thoughts and ideas are.  No one here is afraid to call you out on what they think you meant. 


It's a truly educational experience, when taken as such!  Sometimes I wish these arguments were more publicly available as examples of how to communicate better...
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #216 on: 14 Oct 2018, 18:58 »

> Word choice is ridiculously important

Joseph Conrad said there are no synonyms in English, and Mark Twain said the difference between the right word and the almost right word was the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #217 on: 15 Oct 2018, 02:35 »

> Word choice is ridiculously important

Joseph Conrad said there are no synonyms in English, and Mark Twain said the difference between the right word and the almost right word was the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.

Also, Mark Twain seems to have been quite the southerner. He's attributed with the quote "My coldest winter was a summer in San Francisco". Now, San Fran doesn't get particularly warm in summer, but doesn't get too cold in winter either.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #218 on: 15 Oct 2018, 07:02 »


Also, Mark Twain seems to have been quite the southerner. He's attributed with the quote "My coldest winter was a summer in San Francisco". Now, San Fran doesn't get particularly warm in summer, but doesn't get too cold in winter either.

He probably wrote that before he moved to Connecticut.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #219 on: 15 Oct 2018, 07:50 »

I'm laughing like a mad woman about the hair "debate." I could give a flying fart with how society thinks women should style, cut, care for, or whatever with their hair. I must hang out with chill people. Most of them don't seem to care one way or another either. I had short hair most of my adult life, but I am currently growing my it down to my butt, and I'm (gasp) in my 40s. How dare a woman my age grow hair that long!  :laugh:

Then I let my elementary-aged kiddo get herself a mohawk. She was going to grow it out until a "friend" told her that her own mom would be "angry" if she got a "boy hairdo" herself, and "no girls" at her school have short hair (kiddo goes to a different school). So my kid asked to go back to the hair dresser and got another mohawk out of spite. :laugh:

As for the comic? It's cute and funny, and that's all I take away from it. I like that Jeph changes up some of his characters. There are female characters (Marigold is one I can think of) who don't change much when it comes to hair/style. Then there are male characters like Clinton and Winslow who ended up with enormous changes. I don't think it's a horrible thing people talk about the hair or changes in appearances. It's easy to become attached to characters, and most of QC's cast happen to be female.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #220 on: 15 Oct 2018, 17:02 »

Joseph Conrad said there are no synonyms in English, and Mark Twain said the difference between the right word and the almost right word was the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.

Nicely said, by both of them.

Also, Mark Twain seems to have been quite the southerner. He's attributed with the quote "My coldest winter was a summer in San Francisco". Now, San Fran doesn't get particularly warm in summer, but doesn't get too cold in winter either.

The thing that gets people about summer in San Francisco is that they come expecting, well, summer weather -- it's in "sunny California", right?!? -- and they get maybe two or three days of that at a time before the cold, cold fog comes rolling in and blankets the city for several more days. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen tourists standing on downtown street corners in shorts and t-shirts, gradually turning blue from the cold...

I'm always tempted to open the car window and holler "Welcome to sunny California!" at them as I go by, but I manage to restrain myself.... most of the time.  :evil:
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #221 on: 15 Oct 2018, 17:43 »

First time I was in San Francisco the high was 53F and a full gale was blowing. It was July. I was there for five days and never saw the sun.

Then at the end of my trip I took a shuttle to SFO airport, where it was 75F with bright sun.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #222 on: 15 Oct 2018, 18:09 »

Long hair looks excellent. 
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #223 on: 15 Oct 2018, 18:27 »

First time I was in San Francisco the high was 53F and a full gale was blowing. It was July. I was there for five days and never saw the sun.

Then at the end of my trip I took a shuttle to SFO airport, where it was 75F with bright sun.

Microclimates. One summer when I was living there, I didn't see the sun for two months over my place (Sunset District), but all I had to do was head down to Dolores Park and there'd be people sunbathing.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #224 on: 15 Oct 2018, 21:18 »

I lucked out when work sent me down for some factory training back in the day.
I froze by butt off the night I arrived since the [cheap] motel had no heat - just AC.
That day I took a stroll around the industrial park during the extended lunch break - it felt warm but pleasant to this Torontoian. I am used to heat and humidity in the summers after all. All was well until I walked into the shade of a tree and the temperature difference was like walking into a freezer. I didn't believe in micro-climates up till then.
Froze my ass again the next night but the following day was absolutely balmy but not as dry hot as the day before.
The next morning was bone chilling fog to send me off on my flight back home.
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #225 on: 17 Oct 2018, 22:33 »

Now here is the thing about "artists"  -  you pretty much hit the nail on the head without actually pointing out the issue here yet making it out as a something positive.
The absolute narcissism when an artist says they don't need to conform to others expectations.


You just really wanted to say this particular thing, right? Your response wasn't meant to be taken in context with the debate about whether a fictional character's hairstyle is somehow a crime against humanity by not pleasing some specific dudes on the internet?
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Re: WCDT strips 3841-3845 (1-5 October 2018)
« Reply #226 on: 18 Oct 2018, 09:09 »

I thought it was interesting(mod), and there's now a better topic for the nuances of the relationship between artist and audience in DISCUSS{/mod).
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