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  • 19 Sep 2019, 18:18
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Poll

Pancake!Roko! What happens next? (Choose two)

Roko has to deal with a low-spec temporary body until Faye and Bubbles can somehow fix her original chassis
- 14 (21.2%)
Spookybot: "I can repair her although she may find the specification of the replacement a bit more... cutting edge."
- 10 (15.2%)
"Bubbles, that's not a humanoid chassis, it's a Transformer. A 30-foot tall one too!"
- 2 (3%)
Roko in Momo-tan
- 10 (15.2%)
Roko in iWinslow
- 3 (4.5%)
Roko in a robo-girlfriend prototype chassis
- 7 (10.6%)
Roko in an immobile sensor & communications pod that ends up being carried around by a main character
- 10 (15.2%)
Uploaded into the experimental town data grid. She now IS Northampton
- 4 (6.1%)
Other (specify in comment)
- 6 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 39


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Author Topic: WCDT strips 3606-3910 (31st December 2018 to 4th January 2019)  (Read 9398 times)

oddtail

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Eh. Sorry, still not sold on Melon. Judging by the thread, I'm the only heartless bastard who isn't, but I've mentally put her in the category of "comic really wants to make sure you know she's WACKY" that I'd previously had Emily in (and to a small extent, Raven), and the latest comic did little to change that. Except Emily was occasionally semi-interesting to me, and unless Melon gets significant character development, "she doesn't know basic stuff/she says and does things that don't seem to make much sense" seems to be the character trait that overwhelms anything else.

(incidentally, I find it mildly funny that, as far as I can tell with a quick check, the last appearance of Emily a few hundred strips ago was her interacting with Melon and another character commenting that "she has a way with the weirdoes")

I mean, I'm not hatin' on anyone who finds the fact that Melon cares endearing. I just don't. My reaction is mostly "she sings Twinke Twinkle Little Star to the tune of Bohemian Rhapsody. Hilarious" and rolling my eyes a bit. It kinda kills for me any genuine emotion that the comic might otherwise convey.
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traroth

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Maybe Roko will become a sentient loaf of bread?
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TheCollector

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Okay I can't handle any more of this highly upsetting story line. Wake me when it's resolved.
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Meander

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It also reinforces for me how young and innocent Melon seems. It's the sort of thing a young child would do for a beloved friend or relative who is in a coma or something. In some ways, it's as much to comfort herself as it is for Roko.

And now I'm crying.
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Annemoon

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With respect to the chassis issues, just because a model is no longer in production does not mean that exact same model series cannot be found on the open market.
Also the insurance company always makes the final decision and if a replacement is cheaper than a repair then the cheaper solution it is.


Well, you're looking at it from a purely "thing" point of view. However, it's actually very interesting if that would fully be the case.
E.g. if your human 'body' is damaged by cause of another (especially one with good insurance) you would be eligible for both hospital cost (damages) but also for some sort of emotional compensation.

In my opinion - equal rights would place android bodies more within the latter point of view, especially considering the process of body integration.
It's interesting to see how Jeph is going to spin this.
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traroth

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Time for a better, faster, stronger Roko!
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Thrudd

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With respect to the chassis issues, just because a model is no longer in production does not mean that exact same model series cannot be found on the open market.
Also the insurance company always makes the final decision and if a replacement is cheaper than a repair then the cheaper solution it is.
Well, you're looking at it from a purely "thing" point of view. However, it's actually very interesting if that would fully be the case.
E.g. if your human 'body' is damaged by cause of another (especially one with good insurance) you would be eligible for both hospital cost (damages) but also for some sort of emotional compensation.

In my opinion - equal rights would place android bodies more within the latter point of view, especially considering the process of body integration.
It's interesting to see how Jeph is going to spin this.

Interesting observation though I think that may stem from the USA's unique approach to everything equating directly to dollar signs in some way.
This is especially true for "emotional compensation" which has seemingly spiralled into absurdity a long long time ago.

Mind you what I see here from the white-space interactions being portrayed by Jeph, is that psychological counselling is part of the "medical" response to the trauma, so maybe the QC verse isn't as dysfunctional as The Real Worldtm.


Now onto a tangent regarding Insurance.
Crushbot's Insurer looks to be very diligent when it comes to their liability coverage at this point. I would see that they would seek something from the banana delivery services insurer to either mitigate some of their own costs or help supplement the compensation to Roko in some way.  This all depends on a number of factors. What are the various clauses and factors covered in the insurance policy? What type of people work for and run the insurance company and how do they view their client base? What kind of person is the adjuster and how are they dealing with claims of this nature?

We may be able to see how this pans out though I doubt Jeph will even bother going anywhere near any of that.
More times than not it is boring and annoying at best, unless it is part of his story arc for for that little extra bit of drama and slice of life that isn't quite so sweet.
Oh and maybe adding in a new character or three for the story arc.
Insurance Adjuster not seen as yet, Hardware Consultant though Bubbles may be the closest expert on that and most likely has better rates, Lawyers from the insurance company and maybe from her old police union, and a Councillor as we already have Lemon.
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DSL

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With respect to the chassis issues, just because a model is no longer in production does not mean that exact same model series cannot be found on the open market.
Also the insurance company always makes the final decision and if a replacement is cheaper than a repair then the cheaper solution it is.


Well, you're looking at it from a purely "thing" point of view. However, it's actually very interesting if that would fully be the case.
E.g. if your human 'body' is damaged by cause of another (especially one with good insurance) you would be eligible for both hospital cost (damages) but also for some sort of emotional compensation.

In my opinion - equal rights would place android bodies more within the latter point of view, especially considering the process of body integration.
It's interesting to see how Jeph is going to spin this.

What, you think an insurance company would approach the matter any differently if it were an organic's body?
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If the law permitted different approaches between the two and one approach was cheaper I would expect them to treat the two differently.
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Roborat

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I knew Melon would somehow get involved in this.  I am touched by her compassion and dedication to help, but perhaps she could download a few more songs, both for her sanity and that of anyone else within earshot?
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Tova

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If the law permitted different approaches between the two and one approach was cheaper I would expect them to treat the two differently.

On the other hand, if the law permitted the same approach and one approach were cheaper ...

We may be able to see how this pans out though I doubt Jeph will even bother going anywhere near any of that.

I agree with this. Fascinating though the topic may be, I suspect it was mentioned only to quickly establish the reason Roko has access to therapy and (presumably) to a new chassis. In story terms, details beyond that are uninteresting.
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hedgie

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The replacement body will be easy enough.  Adapting to it, and the sensory as well as psychological issues are much better comic-fodder.
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Melon's wacky, but she's a good friend.
The Sacred Fool, stupid (or in Melon's case zaney) to the point of holiness.
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gprimr1

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It would be interesting to see the comic do something with Roko having to reconcile that Roko left the police department because she disliked it and what it stood for, but had she not have been a police officer, she would be dead.
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Cheetaur

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I wonder if Roko might just say to turn her off? Basically a virtual death, she did sort of die, if she were and organic she would be. This is sorta a limbo, perhaps she may feel that this is the end and perhaps end it. It would be an interesting view ...suicide is a big problem that lies dormant until it affects you directly.
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tHEfOOL

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Melon is a true friend
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both for her sanity and that of anyone else within earshot?

Bold of you to assume that Melon had any sanity to begin with.
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Tova

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Bold of you to conflate quirkiness with mental health.
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St.Clair

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Sanity is one of those transitive verbs.

"I'm quirky, you're weird, they're [batshit, bugfuck, etc etc]."
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Tova

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Ah yes! The emotive conjugation.  :mrgreen:

Bernard: It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it: I have an independent mind; you are an eccentric; he is round the twist.
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zisraelsen

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Comic's up!
A running list of things that bring out Roko's boston accent:
Being drunk
Stressful situations
Receiving large sums of money
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Magniras

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translation, Jeph likes Roko, but wanted to update her design. This way just has the benefit of letting her go into volunteering full time, and exploring AI psychology.
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Tyr

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Comic's up!
A running list of things that bring out Roko's boston accent:
Being drunk
Stressful situations
Receiving large sums of money

Given the last two, I'd combine them to just read "Intense emotions"
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zisraelsen

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Yea, you're not wrong. in fact even in the first example she only lapsed into the accent when O'Malley pissed her off. I just phrased it like I did 'cuz I think lists are funny.
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Gyrre

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I'm very glad to see that Roku will likely come out of this relatively unscathed - at least physically.  The mental trauma may take some time.

Isn't anybody else surprised that after millions of years of evolution and survival of the fittest processes humans have become MORE susceptible to major damage from minor events?  Look at gorillas or rhinos.  You can wail on their bodies with a pipe wrench with relatively little effect.  Why are we so goddanged 'delicate'   I'm also thinking that we should all be fitted with reinforcement for our processors and memory cores.  Could someone please get on that STAT!
'Survival of the Sickest'
Negative attribute that provides short-term immediate survival boost and leads to said attribute being propagated more readily. Examples; diabetes, sickle cell anemia. Excess sugar in the blood reduces risk of frostbite. Most commonly found in individuals with Scandinavian ancestry. Higher blood cell turnover rate reduces likelihood of malaria infection. Most commonly found in peoples native to the Malaria Belt.

TL;DR: Evolution does not and cannot plan. It works purely on hindsight.
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OldGoat

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The emblem is a scrumptiously golden brown croissant.
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Tova

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Merely getting a hairstyle change won't cut it anymore.  :mrgreen:
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Gyrre

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This arc and its implications reminds me of a Kim Possible/The Bionic Woman crossover that I read a few years back. In it, the titular heroine is horrendously injured in a bomb explosion and the only way to avoid her being left a permanently institutionalised cripple, barely better than a vegetable, is radical prosthetic surgery, replacing all four limbs, most of her sensory organs and skin with synthetic replacements as well as heavily augmenting her brain to interface with this amount of electronic appliances.

From there, the story starts going into Ghost in the Shell territory. Being comfortably over 75% synthetic, Kim starts questioning if she's still really is Kim Possible anymore or a sophisticated android that's using some of the late Kim's biological parts to function. There is also the more physical issue that she now weights around 250lbs because of the amount of titanium, coltan and plutonium in her rebuilt body including its micro-fission power system. Not being able see, hear, smell or even feel in the same way as a human anymore doesn't help very much.

I mention this because I think it gives something of an insight into what Roko is likely to go through in the medium-term. No matter how alike her new chassis is to her original, Roko is still going to have this feeling of dislocation - A sense that she is, at the very least, heavily changed from who she was before and, at the worst, that she is not really 'Roko' anymore but a totally different being that just has a copy of a dead woman's memories.

Additionally, Lemon and Roko's interactions in the virtual environment remind me of the early phase of the story. During the reconstructive process, the scientists use the bionic interface circuitry to 'jack' into Kim's brain and interface directly with her consciousness to help her prepare for what was happening to her and to enable her to assist them in testing all the systems to ensure they were interfacing properly with the remainder of her biological central nervous system.
"[A]round 250lbs"

I'm suddenly very conscious of the fact that I'm 5'5" (165cm) and I weigh 221lbs. Granted I've got broad shoulders and a deep chest on top of being generally stocky, but still.
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BenRG

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The more I read today's strip, the more I think that it's basically a commentary and satire on Apple's upgrade policies and marketing. You're having to pay a premium price for only a very small hardware improvement and... oh, did we mention the cool new wireless earbuds? As Apple are finding out, this doesn't work forever and I'm wondering if the manufacturers of Roko's chassis will learn the same!

That aside, I'm wondering just how big the sensorium upgrade will be? I'm definitely thinking that one of the major issues that Roko will have to confront is a body that is much higher-specification than the one she's used to. Imagine being suddenly super-sensitive to the world around you so that every little touch, scent or sound is a bit clearer and more dramatic in its impact on your awareness. I strongly suspect that Roko may simply faint when she next walks into The Secret Bakery from the pleasure overload! She'll likely turn down her sensitivity settings after that but I think that she'll still find it difficult to smell Elliot without seeing the best kind of bread in her head!

So, we know that Roko's chassis is the Philomena series. ((Opens Google in another tab)) The most famous pop culture use of the name appears to be The Philomena Project, a charity named for Annie Philomena Lee, an Irish adoption rights campaigner who had her child forcibly removed from her by the church with state assistance and whose son died before she could track him down. According to Wikipedia, Ms Lee was likely named for Saint Philomena, the patron saint of children.

I've been thinking about Roko's avatar, particularly the white body-sock and the whole thing strikes me as a PG-13 version of 'Roko minus all external adornment'. I wonder if any philosophers out there might wonder if we're looking at her soul?
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traroth

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Now I want to see the fancy emblem...
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Magniras

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I've been thinking about Roko's avatar, particularly the white body-sock and the whole thing strikes me as a PG-13 version of 'Roko minus all external adornment'. I wonder if any philosophers out there might wonder if we're looking at her soul?

I just assumed we were looking at her ghost.
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Eternal_Newbie

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And another 5k for one without the annoying ass logo probably.
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BenRG

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Here's a possibility: The logo is a stylised 'PG' (for 'Philomena-G'). Roko uses the extras from the settlement to commission Sam to use permanent markers to change it to 'RB'. Part of the process of making the new chassis more psychologically 'hers'.
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traroth

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I just realize most AI must have doppelgangers, as chassis are not unique. So we could see others characters looking exactly like, say, Momo. Or Winslow. Or PT410X. Bubbles has probably a very unique chassis, though...
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oddtail

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I just realize most AI must have doppelgangers, as chassis are not unique. So we could see others characters looking exactly like, say, Momo. Or Winslow. Or PT410X. Bubbles has probably a very unique chassis, though...

I hope there is something about facial features that's customizable to an extent, or at least that factories that produce chassis introduce some minor random variation.

Then again, seeing as AI are individual, and it's not like human identical twins can't give a different impression when you meet them, maybe the way AI move their facial muscles makes them different enough?

That makes me wonder. Just how detailed is an artificial body's face? If it's simplified, that must necessarily limit emotional expression. If it's detailed, it'd be incredibly creepy to humans due to Uncanny Valley. I guess the best solution would be for facial features to be somewhat cartoonish in-universe (less threatening, less Uncanny Valleyish, still extremely expressive). But that might ALSO backfire in that AI would subconsciously be perceived as immature or not serious.
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rtmq0227

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That aside, I'm wondering just how big the sensorium upgrade will be?

A thought: how will changes to her sensorium suite affect her ability to enjoy baked goods?
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Thrudd

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Now I want to see the fancy emblem...
(click to show/hide)
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Stoutfellow

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Is it clear that Roko will have to buy the Philomena-G? Lemon said that that is the flagship of the line, which implies that other models - e.g., the Philomena Classic - are available. (I think that the Classic is the rebranding of the Philomena 5s; it wouldn't make sense to rebrand a discontinued model, would it?)
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traroth

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I just realize most AI must have doppelgangers, as chassis are not unique. So we could see others characters looking exactly like, say, Momo. Or Winslow. Or PT410X. Bubbles has probably a very unique chassis, though...

I hope there is something about facial features that's customizable to an extent, or at least that factories that produce chassis introduce some minor random variation.

Then again, seeing as AI are individual, and it's not like human identical twins can't give a different impression when you meet them, maybe the way AI move their facial muscles makes them different enough?

That makes me wonder. Just how detailed is an artificial body's face? If it's simplified, that must necessarily limit emotional expression. If it's detailed, it'd be incredibly creepy to humans due to Uncanny Valley. I guess the best solution would be for facial features to be somewhat cartoonish in-universe (less threatening, less Uncanny Valleyish, still extremely expressive). But that might ALSO backfire in that AI would subconsciously be perceived as immature or not serious.

Maybe they have crossed the Uncanny Valley. Maybe they are so human-like they are not creepy or disturbing anymore. Or maybe humans have adapted? Does the Uncanny Valley still make sense when speaking about really intelligent and sensitive beings?
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dutchrvl

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translation, Jeph likes Roko, but wanted to update her design. This way just has the benefit of letting her go into volunteering full time, and exploring AI psychology.

Could be yes. Personally I feel Jeph wanted to explore some the psychological aspects related to AI connections with their physical embodiments (I feel like he set this up quite a while ago by in-comic discussions of Roko's integration with her body (as early as #3574 at least), as well as adding some exposition on how AI's consciousnesses may be transferred to other bodies, what happens if their bodies 'die', etc.
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oddtail

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I just realize most AI must have doppelgangers, as chassis are not unique. So we could see others characters looking exactly like, say, Momo. Or Winslow. Or PT410X. Bubbles has probably a very unique chassis, though...

I hope there is something about facial features that's customizable to an extent, or at least that factories that produce chassis introduce some minor random variation.

Then again, seeing as AI are individual, and it's not like human identical twins can't give a different impression when you meet them, maybe the way AI move their facial muscles makes them different enough?

That makes me wonder. Just how detailed is an artificial body's face? If it's simplified, that must necessarily limit emotional expression. If it's detailed, it'd be incredibly creepy to humans due to Uncanny Valley. I guess the best solution would be for facial features to be somewhat cartoonish in-universe (less threatening, less Uncanny Valleyish, still extremely expressive). But that might ALSO backfire in that AI would subconsciously be perceived as immature or not serious.

Maybe they have crossed the Uncanny Valley. Maybe they are so human-like they are not creepy or disturbing anymore. Or maybe humans have adapted? Does the Uncanny Valley still make sense when speaking about really intelligent and sensitive beings?

I've been thinking about this WAY too much, so a super long post incoming. Sorry  :-D

I doubt humans have adapted that quickly. Uncanny Valley is a reaction that I think of as something visceral and largely subconscious. Something completely emotional and not based on worldview or values or anything like that.

I mean, we react differently to someone we *know* is human acting or looking a bit off. And it's not just a reaction of generally prejudiced people. Things looking "not quite right" are unnerving. We base our reactions on looks even when we know someone is intelligent and emotional (and the opposite - we humanize and anthropomorphise anything that's cute or visually non-threatening or otherwise good- and human-looking, even inanimate objects). Either it's human nature, or something so deeply ingrained in Western culture as to be effectively the same as human nature. If I put disturbing-looking make-up on that'd make me look extremely doll-like or give me a weird eye shape or skin tone or something like that, even people who know me would be a bit uncomfortable, I imagine. And they would know I'm still me, so it's not about the fact they'd suddenly treat me as a different person.

I mean, YMMV, but I think of Uncanny Valley as being a fairly normal, default human reaction.

As to them being super-realistic - I doubt it to the extent that the art style suggests they look markedly different from humans in the comic. It's not just the color of the skin. Plus, the colourful bodies would also likely be a conscious decision to avoid an Uncanny Valley-ish effect that flesh-coloured skins might provoke. If that choice was made, it stands to reason that the choice of facial structure was affected by the consideration as well.

Also, when trying to create an appealing image of a person, people in e.g. animation have always gone for exaggeration, and it's no accident that super-realistic drawings look kinda off. I think if popular art, comics and animation, including animation with incredible budgets, hasn't disposed of exaggeration and cartoonish features in a century (and counting drawings, in several millenia), then it's just a good practice that works. Plus, if AI bodies are made as products, the producer would certainly go for artistic and aesthetic value, at least in part, and there's a huge market for things looking cute and simplified (when you have a video game avatar in an online space, or a little person appearing on-screen to help you, is it usually a photorealistic rendition? Are mascots for places and events extremely realistic? Are fursuits at furry conventions? Usually not).

Thirdly, we've seen a variety of types of AI chassis and they often are extremely stylised (including chibi-fied) or have some features simplified (often to imply a lower price tag). Even if there are bodies for AI indistinguishable from those of humans, I doubt they are within a reasonable pricing range, based on the AI and the problems with their bodies we've witnessed in the comic - they may have easily removable skin, feet with no individual toes, arms and legs with obvious connectors and so on. So it's not unreasonable to think they also have relatively simple mechanics of muscle structure and so on, because otherwise there'd be a weird disjoint between a body that has features that are robot-like or almost mannequin-like coupled with a perfectly human-like face. And even that might be a little unsettling, so we're coming back to the problem with Uncanny Valley.

Plus, the negative reactions to AI that we've seen in some strips imply that people are used to being able that an AI is an AI at a glance. And we've never seen anyone doubting someone else being human, so it's either uncommon or unknown that such a possibility may occur (I mean, it's also possible that the comic just never went there, but that'd be speculation based on no in-comic evidence).
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traroth

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I just realize most AI must have doppelgangers, as chassis are not unique. So we could see others characters looking exactly like, say, Momo. Or Winslow. Or PT410X. Bubbles has probably a very unique chassis, though...

I hope there is something about facial features that's customizable to an extent, or at least that factories that produce chassis introduce some minor random variation.

Then again, seeing as AI are individual, and it's not like human identical twins can't give a different impression when you meet them, maybe the way AI move their facial muscles makes them different enough?

That makes me wonder. Just how detailed is an artificial body's face? If it's simplified, that must necessarily limit emotional expression. If it's detailed, it'd be incredibly creepy to humans due to Uncanny Valley. I guess the best solution would be for facial features to be somewhat cartoonish in-universe (less threatening, less Uncanny Valleyish, still extremely expressive). But that might ALSO backfire in that AI would subconsciously be perceived as immature or not serious.

Maybe they have crossed the Uncanny Valley. Maybe they are so human-like they are not creepy or disturbing anymore. Or maybe humans have adapted? Does the Uncanny Valley still make sense when speaking about really intelligent and sensitive beings?

I've been thinking about this WAY too much, so a super long post incoming. Sorry  :-D

I doubt humans have adapted that quickly. Uncanny Valley is a reaction that I think of as something visceral and largely subconscious. Something completely emotional and not based on worldview or values or anything like that.

I mean, we react differently to someone we *know* is human acting or looking a bit off. And it's not just a reaction of generally prejudiced people. Things looking "not quite right" are unnerving. We base our reactions on looks even when we know someone is intelligent and emotional (and the opposite - we humanize and anthropomorphise anything that's cute or visually non-threatening or otherwise good- and human-looking, even inanimate objects). Either it's human nature, or something so deeply ingrained in Western culture as to be effectively the same as human nature. If I put disturbing-looking make-up on that'd make me look extremely doll-like or give me a weird eye shape or skin tone or something like that, even people who know me would be a bit uncomfortable, I imagine. And they would know I'm still me, so it's not about the fact they'd suddenly treat me as a different person.

I mean, YMMV, but I think of Uncanny Valley as being a fairly normal, default human reaction.

As to them being super-realistic - I doubt it to the extent that the art style suggests they look markedly different from humans in the comic. It's not just the color of the skin. Plus, the colourful bodies would also likely be a conscious decision to avoid an Uncanny Valley-ish effect that flesh-coloured skins might provoke. If that choice was made, it stands to reason that the choice of facial structure was affected by the consideration as well.

Also, when trying to create an appealing image of a person, people in e.g. animation have always gone for exaggeration, and it's no accident that super-realistic drawings look kinda off. I think if popular art, comics and animation, including animation with incredible budgets, hasn't disposed of exaggeration and cartoonish features in a century (and counting drawings, in several millenia), then it's just a good practice that works. Plus, if AI bodies are made as products, the producer would certainly go for artistic and aesthetic value, at least in part, and there's a huge market for things looking cute and simplified (when you have a video game avatar in an online space, or a little person appearing on-screen to help you, is it usually a photorealistic rendition? Are mascots for places and events extremely realistic? Are fursuits at furry conventions? Usually not).

Thirdly, we've seen a variety of types of AI chassis and they often are extremely stylised (including chibi-fied) or have some features simplified (often to imply a lower price tag). Even if there are bodies for AI indistinguishable from those of humans, I doubt they are within a reasonable pricing range, based on the AI and the problems with their bodies we've witnessed in the comic - they may have easily removable skin, feet with no individual toes, arms and legs with obvious connectors and so on. So it's not unreasonable to think they also have relatively simple mechanics of muscle structure and so on, because otherwise there'd be a weird disjoint between a body that has features that are robot-like or almost mannequin-like coupled with a perfectly human-like face. And even that might be a little unsettling, so we're coming back to the problem with Uncanny Valley.

Plus, the negative reactions to AI that we've seen in some strips imply that people are used to being able that an AI is an AI at a glance. And we've never seen anyone doubting someone else being human, so it's either uncommon or unknown that such a possibility may occur (I mean, it's also possible that the comic just never went there, but that'd be speculation based on no in-comic evidence).

In my opinion, Uncanny Valley is not caused by something "being of", but by the realistic appearance of life, intelligence and conscience in something that has none of those. But obviously, AI in QC have them, so I'm not sure their appearance would still cause that creepy effect.

Just watch Twillight Zone, the episode "The dummy" (s03e33), the puppet is creepy as hell!
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oddtail

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I mean... Uncanny Valley, the way I've seen it defined, is about something looking or appearing as almost human, but not quite.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/uncanny_valley

By this definition, it's all about appearance and its effect, regardless of intelligence or lack thereof. I've seen store mannequins described as creepy because of the "Uncanny Valley" effect, as well as humanoid dolls or even visual art that's almost-realistic.

Also, I've never seen it discussed in the context of a good facsimile of a living, thinking being. Neither the P-zombie thought experiment, for instance, nor Hal 9000 from "2001: A Space Odyssey" are something I've ever seen discussed in the context of UV.

So I guess we have different definitions here? I'm not sure there's a consensus, but again - I'm going by the definition I've almost universally seen.

EDIT: Wikipedia seems to make similar assumptions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Quote
In aesthetics, the uncanny valley is a hypothesized relationship between the degree of an object's resemblance to a human being and the emotional response to such an object. The concept of the uncanny valley suggests humanoid objects which appear almost, but not exactly, like real human beings elicit uncanny, or strangely familiar, feelings of eeriness and revulsion in observers.[2] Valley denotes a dip in the human observer's affinity for the replica, a relation that otherwise increases with the replica's human likeness.[3]
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syclick

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I can see Roko being tempted to purchase her old chassis model off the black market.
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Tyr

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I can see Roko being tempted to purchase her old chassis model off the black market.

Doesn't even have to be 'black' market. She could just buy one secondhand. they're discontinued, not outlawed.

of course, a secondhand chassis in general may skeeve her out... that's someone else's body. It'd be like wearing someone else's underwear x256, or using another dwarf's tools.
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OldGoat

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AIs often refer to their physical frames as their chassis.  Roko, near as I can tell, always uses "body."  Hanners actually used the term unprompted in 3574, but then again she'd be the human to spot that degree of integration.

Another subtle Jephism.  Very good!  Very good!
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hedgie

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WRT the "Uncanny Valley" effect and QC-verse AIs, I do believe that Jeph has stated that Momo can pass as human under casual inspection.

Edit: Even if he has not directly said it, Sam did think that she was just another adolescent kid until Momo pointed out that she was a robot.
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Case

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Cue storyline regarding identity & body/gender fluidity.

Yes. Trans people should be able to identify with the psychological trauma Renko feels.

Yes, I was wondering about that - Jeph's handling of this arc so far seems to support 'our' (=wcdt) speculations that AI appear to have kind of a "body-map" that tells them what should be where and how everything should 'feel' at a very deep-down, 'firmware' level.

If I recall your posts & citations correctly, we humans have something like such a map, too, the configuration process starts already in the womb, and mismatches between that internal map and the physical body is what we call gender-dysphoria?

It would be nice if Jeph used this arc to try to highlight this particular aspect of the *trans experience - just like many other SF-authors have used their stories about the future to give us tools/analogies to better understand our present.
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Perfectly Reasonable

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... and now she will have a butt sensitivity to concern her. Great.
What we really need to know is the difference between the old model and the Philomena 5s/Classic.

(I notice that Lemon uses 'butt' and not more clinical language.)

I sanity in your general direction!  (sanity is a verb now)
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DSL

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I wonder if observing that one does not have the latest model, with the slightly upgraded sensorium, the $20K extra on the price tag, and the really nice emblem on the butt would be the AI equivalent of chas -- er, body-shaming.
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