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Poll

So what is Roko's new chassis going to be like?

Pretentious like a Porsche.
- 9 (28.1%)
Big Badonkadonk like a Kardashian.
- 4 (12.5%)
Pigtails (and her other accoutrements) like Momo.
- 2 (6.3%)
Attitude and glitches like May.
- 2 (6.3%)
HAH! She looks like Lemon!
- 3 (9.4%)
Worse - she looks like PINTSIZE.
- 0 (0%)
That dream of being a toaster is FINALLY REALIZED!
- 4 (12.5%)
Purple Monkey Dishwasher!
- 8 (25%)

Total Members Voted: 32


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Author Topic: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)  (Read 6222 times)

DSL

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #150 on: 11 Jan 2019, 09:00 »

So let me get this straight. We’re letting Crushbot off the hook for nearly killing Roko, but we’re condemning Faye for potentially hurting Crushbot’s feelings?

You're allowed to feel remorse, and attempt to offer condolences for, an accident that is determined to be your fault but which you did not intend. (Even if Thuh LAW and Pernicious Pedants insist we "intend" every consequence of our actions.)

Absent any indication C-bot delibarately sent Roko's chassis to Flatland, Faye's "No one likes you" is a tad bit uncalled for.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #151 on: 11 Jan 2019, 09:34 »

I really liked how Jeph kind of took us into one of the most degrading of the aspects of the trans experience: people asking very personal questions about your body, and whether and you'd had surgery. I particularly think it's great that he brought the whole debate about whether or not Claire has had genital corrective surgery directly into the narrative, even if only indirectly.

I hope that the next time somebody wants to speculate about Claire, they'll think about Roko's response to the question about whether or not she now has nipples...

Jeph has also addressed the issue head on in a tweet.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #152 on: 11 Jan 2019, 10:35 »

Using real life vehicle insurance policies as a model - At least in any US state I'm familiar with, by accepting a settlement from the insurance company for a totaled vehicle, you give them title to what's left.  Roko's old body probably isn't hers anymore.  (You do hear about owners buying their junked vehicle back to rebuild it.  "Total loss" just means the insurer thinks it'll cost more to repair than to replace.  There may be a lot of car left.  In some cases the damage may be entirely cosmetic.)

The default in any surgical procedure paperwork here in the US is that the surgeon gets to keep whatever they take out of you.  Babies excepted.  As my doc explained once, "That's in case it's really interesting and I want to write a paper on it."

No one has mentioned the liability of whoever the nincompoop was that left a crate of bananas on the traveled portion of the sidewalk, particularly in a neighborhood frequented by abnormally large sentient robots.  Crushie's insurance carrier is no doubt investigating the possibility of subrogating to recover at least part of their loss.  (Proportional liability - how much of the fault rests with Crushbot and how much with the Banana Leaver - will be discussed in pretrial negotiations and argued at court if the case goes to trial, but they seldom do.)
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #153 on: 11 Jan 2019, 11:25 »

I don't have the energy for WCDT, but I feel like it bears mentioning that I would look askance at a *constructed* giant able to be foiled by one (1) errant crate of fruit. Like i dunno three legs, magic gyroscopes... something?

like I totally can be foiled by fruit, but i'm a product of evolution and more-or-less natural biology, i'm automatically doomed to be a ridiculously-unoptimized bag of flesh and water

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #154 on: 11 Jan 2019, 12:01 »

Oh please, they have to give Roko a fruit backet, it would fit their sense of humour, and would serve to welcome Roko into the group.  Also, why the anger Faye? It was an accident, it wasn't Crushbot's negligence or actions that caused Roko to become one with the sidewalk.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #155 on: 11 Jan 2019, 15:37 »

So let me get this straight. We’re letting Crushbot off the hook for nearly killing Roko, but we’re condemning Faye for potentially hurting Crushbot’s feelings?

If Crushbot was one of those drivers who didn't have insurance and just caused a major accident I can  understand the contempt, but he isn't.  And it's like I've previously stated Union Robotics is a struggling business that he doesn't have to patronize or recommend to his fellow AIs unless he's cool with taking verbal abuse and Faye is just giving him what he wants. 
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #156 on: 11 Jan 2019, 16:56 »

I guess I'm a lot more sympathetic to Faye's PoV than everybody else is. Remember, the first thing Chrushbot said after they fell on Roko was "THERE IS NO NEED FOR CONCERN. SOMETHING BROKE CRUSHBOT'S FALL. THE ONLY INJURY IS TO CRUSHBOT'S PRIDE." Now, admittedly, Crushbot had no reason to know that the SOMETHING which broke their fall was actually a SOMEONE, but I can certainly see how the apparent callousness of the comment might set people off for a while.

As I see it, Crushbot was careless -- they really should have seen the crate of bananas and should have been sufficently aware of their surroundings to know that there was someone right behind them and adjust their fall. They weren't and they didn't -- and that's pretty bad. It's forgivable -- "Nobody likes you right now" really means "I'm still pissed" not "I hate you" -- but Faye's got every right to still be irritated.

(Also, didn't Crushbot used to be part of the fighting ring? If so, it's pretty likely that Faye's their friend, too. In that case, the abuse becomes more friendly grumping.)
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Tova

Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #157 on: 11 Jan 2019, 17:08 »

I don't have the energy for WCDT, but I feel like it bears mentioning that I would look askance at a *constructed* giant able to be foiled by one (1) errant crate of fruit. Like i dunno three legs, magic gyroscopes... something?

Okay, so a part of the difficulty of discussing this - apart from the fact that my posts from yesterday were pretty much my emotional reaction rather than completely thought through - is that this is a ludicrous situation, isn't it? I mean, I can only imagine that Jeph had Crushbot slip on a falling crate of bananas to dissuade us from taking the whole thing too seriously. That was never going to work, of course, but still...

... Someone is driving a car on the sidewalk all the time, and doesn't see an obstacle, about the same size of a child drawing on the sidewalk, reverses, and kills someone. Should we be angry at that person?

Well, yes, we should, because this person shouldn't be on the sidewalk.

Should Crushbot not exist? Eh, I don't know, it's impossible to judge. The whole situation is presented as a freakish accident. I have no idea in practice just how dangerous this chassis is. They are (apparently) repairing Crushbot's chassis, not replacing it with a safer one, so maybe it is safe and this really was just a freakishly unlikely accident. It can happen.

So let me get this straight. We’re letting Crushbot off the hook for nearly killing Roko, but we’re condemning Faye for potentially hurting Crushbot’s feelings?

You're allowed to feel remorse, and attempt to offer condolences for, an accident that is determined to be your fault but which you did not intend. (Even if Thuh LAW and Pernicious Pedants insist we "intend" every consequence of our actions.)

Absent any indication C-bot delibarately sent Roko's chassis to Flatland, Faye's "No one likes you" is a tad bit uncalled for.

I agree with DSL, but as I imagine Zebediah's post was aimed at me among others, I'll expand.

In saying "letting Crushbot off the hook," I take it that you believe Crushbot to be culpable. As it happens, I don't think he is. But not actually, that's not what I was doing. My opinion applies whether I "let him off the hook" or not.

I'm also not "condemning" Faye. I was criticising. No need to be dramatic.

TL;DR - Yes, he shouldn't be in this chassis, or shouldn't walk it on the sidewalk, or get a sensor upgrade or safety training or whatever. I understand he didn't intend to hurt anyone, but "With great power ekcetra ekcetra"

So, I've addressed this to a degree up-post. But, regardless of that, I'll happily go along with the idea that there should be some consequence to what has happened. Be that an upgrade, training, or a change in chassis. I think in the real world, they would all be good outcomes.

And anger is something different than cruelty, which is what you seem to be reading here?

Hmmm, yes, you've astutely got to the heart of the matter here. It was cruelty that I read in Faye's statement, not anger.

Note e.g. that when she says 'Nobody likes you' she adds the qualifier 'right now', which implies that in the future, people will like him again. And it's ... IDK, close to the hyperbole you use around kids?

Yes, I can see that. But honestly, I was left more strongly with the words "... and you're just gonna have to deal with that."

And yes, this is an emotional not a rational reaction, but that hyperbole did not, to me, imply that in the future people will like him again. I mentally appended to it, "for the rest of your life."

And you know what? He will have to deal with the fact that he almost killed someone for the rest of his life.

My emotional reaction to it was very heavily based on an assumption I made going in. Knowing QC and knowing Jeph, it's almost certainly wrong. But it shaped my reaction, so here it is.

I had assumed that Crushbot was traumatised by what had happened. And, whether at fault or not, was just as much in need of counseling as Roko.

But where Roko did get counseling (admittedly clumsy, but it's all about the jokes innit), Crushbot perhaps ironically got Faye's insensitive sass, with all the finesse of Crushbot in a china shop.

Can we just review the dialogue now?

Bubbles: Probably not a fruit basket, considering the cause of the accident.
Crushbot: CRUSHBOT WOULD ALSO LIKE TO EXTEND CRUSHBOT'S SINCERE CONDOLENCES.
Faye: You shut up. Nobody likes you right now and you're just gonna have to deal with that.

So: it's been stated outright that the cause of the accident is the fruit basket(*). What, am I overreading this statement? As someone else upthread stated, this could just as easily have happened to Bubbles, nicht wahr? She could fall on someone and kill them.

Crushbot has not retreated to a position of "well, this wasn't my fault." He is apologetic regardless. This is the right thing to do, isn't it? We're often so quick to condemn people with "faux apologies." Well, this isn't one of them.

I just can't imagine ever telling someone extending a sincere apology to shut up, unless they were guilty of something truly heinous. It's just unnecessary.

And if Crushbot does happen to be traumatised, then this will make things worse. I hope that's not the case.

I hope that all that happens is Crushbot's feeling are a little bit hurt.

No, I don't condemn Faye. She's probably still in a bit of shock herself. But I do worry that one of these days her inconsiderate words will have real consequences. Probably not this time. But one day.

Warning: you blabbed on again

I'm not taking sides.

I'm fine with someone telling Crushbot that they should have been more careful, or their chassis needs upgrades/replacement, or whatever.

And if Crushbot is indeed Faye's friend and this is sass between friends, then I take it all back.

Edit:
* Banana crate  :roll:
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2019, 20:47 by Tova »
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Milayna

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #158 on: 11 Jan 2019, 17:17 »

If someone lost control of their car after a rock hit the windshield, and someone were killed as a result, would your reaction towards that person be angry or compassionate?

Aside from what Case answered above, let me adjust that image; Someone is driving a car on the sidewalk all the time, and doesn't see an obstacle, about the same size of a child drawing on the sidewalk, reverses, and kills someone. Should we be angry at that person?

I know the idea is that their chassis is their body, and that they're supposed to be accepted as people, but let's be honest, what is the heaviest person you're likely to see on a sidewalk? And are those people likely to be clad in metal? There's a good reason to separate traffic, even if some people think it might be a good idea to mingle it and slow down traffic.
And this is what bothers me about Crushbot. let's skip the middleman: Say that the cars, themselves, are fully realized AI's. Well, they're people now. But does that mean we have to grant that they can just go down the sidewalk? May wanted to be a fighter jet; if she succeeded, welp, does the F-15 get to just roll into the bank now?

This gets really sticky, where the rights of fully autonomous people intersect with the reality that some of those people now have physical properties that historical civilization simply was not built to accommodate. There would need to be either radical restructuring of the physical space of the world - virtually impossible - or there would need to be some restrictions and the type of equipment that people are allowed to use; just as I can't drive a backhoe around to do my daily errands, it seems like a chassis such as Crushbot's would be, essentially, his "work vehicle".

Especially considering the body integration that Roko talked about that will cause problems of identity that has me coming down on a conservative side that I'm very uncomfortable with...but can't see any way past. If there's a "correct answer", I don't think society would have discovered it in the few decades since AI's were created.
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Gyrre

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #159 on: 11 Jan 2019, 17:35 »

Damn, my "it's all about the jokes" sig got changed.
I work with some pretty 'bottom of the barrel' temps and boy is that ever true. Thought avoidant indeed.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #160 on: 11 Jan 2019, 17:36 »

I really liked how Jeph kind of took us into one of the most degrading of the aspects of the trans experience: people asking very personal questions about your body, and whether and you'd had surgery. I particularly think it's great that he brought the whole debate about whether or not Claire has had genital corrective surgery directly into the narrative, even if only indirectly.

I hope that the next time somebody wants to speculate about Claire, they'll think about Roko's response to the question about whether or not she now has nipples...
Can I get a link?
Jeph has also addressed the issue head on in a tweet.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #161 on: 11 Jan 2019, 17:47 »

I really liked how Jeph kind of took us into one of the most degrading of the aspects of the trans experience: people asking very personal questions about your body, and whether and you'd had surgery. I particularly think it's great that he brought the whole debate about whether or not Claire has had genital corrective surgery directly into the narrative, even if only indirectly.

I hope that the next time somebody wants to speculate about Claire, they'll think about Roko's response to the question about whether or not she now has nipples...

Jeph has also addressed the issue head on in a tweet.
I missed that one. Can you point me to it?  (Unless you mean the "on discussoin of private parts", which I was trying to sort of call back to...)
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Tova

Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #162 on: 11 Jan 2019, 17:51 »

This gets really sticky, where the rights of fully autonomous people intersect with the reality that some of those people now have physical properties that historical civilization simply was not built to accommodate. There would need to be either radical restructuring of the physical space of the world - virtually impossible - or there would need to be some restrictions and the type of equipment that people are allowed to use; just as I can't drive a backhoe around to do my daily errands, it seems like a chassis such as Crushbot's would be, essentially, his "work vehicle".

Okay, so in the real world this would come down to a risk assessment, wouldn't it?

I mean, if nearly 40,000 people died this way in a single year, then obviously people's individual rights to own such machinery would need to be compromised in the name of public safety. Right? Right?

Okay, maybe not. In the case of cars, there are a comparable number of fatalities, but the utility of cars is such that we don't ban them outright, but we do require training and licensing.

If this is a freakish one-off, then I can't imagine consequences beyond reviewing the safety of the chassis and training Crashbot to prevent such accidents in future.

I do agree, anyway, that the intersection of individual rights and public safety can be a sticky topic.
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Gyrre

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #163 on: 11 Jan 2019, 18:09 »

*snip*
YThere's been a debate here about (very) old drivers - when it's time that they should hand in their license, as there is no legal age-limit. On the one hand, it is a cruel statement to make, it is likely to shrink their mobility and thus their social circle at a time when loneliness becomes a health-hazard etc. On the other hand, they're handling half a ton of murder on wheels in one of the most demanding driving environments on the planet. Reaction times become longer, focussing becomes harder, eyesight weaker.
I've actually put a good amount of thought into this when my best friend got hit by a septigenerian lady with terrible cataracts in both eyes. Turns out her kids (who were also her lawyers) knew and let her continue driving anyways.

Start requiring regular vision tests at age 50 (when eyes commonly start changing shape again). That way vision problems could be (hopefully) caught early. Just an annual vision test would be required. Failing to get the test would probably come with a fine, and maybe a suspended license. In the event of cataracts, the driver would of course be informed that they'd need them removed in order to continue driving. This could also catch other aging eye problems such as macular degeneration, juxtafovial retinopathy, and Drusen's syndrome.

Once a driver's eyesight was no longer reliable, then their license would be taken away.
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Tova

Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #164 on: 11 Jan 2019, 19:53 »

In NSW Australia, all drivers need to pass regular vision tests, but this requirement becomes more frequent as you age. It becomes annual when you reach 70 years of age.
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Case

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #165 on: 11 Jan 2019, 21:56 »

Okay, so a part of the difficulty of discussing this - apart from the fact that my posts from yesterday were pretty much my emotional reaction rather than completely thought through - is that this is a ludicrous situation, isn't it? I mean, I can only imagine that Jeph had Crushbot slip on a falling crate of bananas to dissuade us from taking the whole thing too seriously. That was never going to work, of course, but still...

Good point. I can only imagine Jeph's reaction - "Of course they were going to obsess about the plot-device ..."

Note e.g. that when she says 'Nobody likes you' she adds the qualifier 'right now', which implies that in the future, people will like him again. And it's ... IDK, close to the hyperbole you use around kids?

Yes, I can see that. But honestly, I was left more strongly with the words "... and you're just gonna have to deal with that."

<snip>

Crushbot has not retreated to a position of "well, this wasn't my fault." He is apologetic regardless. This is the right thing to do, isn't it? We're often so quick to condemn people with "faux apologies." Well, this isn't one of them.

I just can't imagine ever telling someone extending a sincere apology to shut up, unless they were guilty of something truly heinous. It's just unnecessary.

Ok, I see. I focussed more on the first part, but you're right that "... and you're just gonna have to deal with that" is ... very harsh.

I can potentially see reasons for harshness even when people are apologetic - e.g. Crushbot seems a little 'young', and there might be reasons to impress on a multi-ton teenager that their being 'young' is a luxury that their fellow beings can ill afford, and that they please grow up now before someone gets killed - but it is very harsh, true.

Personally, I read Faye's dialogue more as the exaggerated scolding a parent or caretaker would apply to a child, like "I'm really mad with you now, because you really shouldn't have done that and someone got hurt because you did, and I really want you to remember that - but I'm not going to stay mad with you forever".

But again, you're right that this is very harsh, potentially bordering on cruelty, depending on circumstances/what happened between comics.
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2019, 23:05 by Case »
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #166 on: 11 Jan 2019, 22:48 »

In NSW Australia, all drivers need to pass regular vision tests, but this requirement becomes more frequent as you age. It becomes annual when you reach 70 years of age.

That's a good idea - over here, people need to pass a vision test to get their licence and it's recommended to repeat the test regularly for one's own safety, but afaik, it's not a legal requirement.
« Last Edit: 11 Jan 2019, 23:10 by Case »
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BenRG

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #167 on: 12 Jan 2019, 00:50 »

I really can't believe how impassioned and out-of-proportion this debate has got. Let me summarise in the simplest terms I know.

Faye was not being cruel or malicious. She was upset because her friend had been seriously hurt, indeed nearly killed. She was reacting to this by lashing out verbally at the most proximate cause for her own distress to hand. This is not a moral failing; it's being human.

Was it an ideal response? No, but Faye isn't an ideal woman and I challenge anyone here to claim with a straight face that, with a friend in ICU and the person whose misadventure caused that before them, that they wouldn't be salty too!

However, notice that Faye is still carrying out the repairs, apparently quite conscientiously. She may be upset but she's not vengeful.
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Tova

Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #168 on: 12 Jan 2019, 01:55 »

Personally, I read Faye's dialogue more as the exaggerated scolding a parent or caretaker would apply to a child, like "I'm really mad with you now, because you really shouldn't have done that and someone got hurt because you did, and I really want you to remember that - but I'm not going to stay mad with you forever".

But again, you're right that this is very harsh, potentially bordering on cruelty, depending on circumstances/what happened between comics.

Well, at this point, I'm going to assume that Faye and Crushbot have at this point got to know each other well enough that Faye knows Crushbot won't be crushed  :claireface: by her remark.

BTW Ben, I don't believe the conversation has been at all out of proportion. Maybe some opinions you don't agree with have been expressed. But judging by your post, maybe you've taken what I've said out of proportion? Because I'm not feeling as impassioned as you seem to think, honestly.

I don't actually think she's guilty of a moral failing. I don't think she's vengeful either.

I did say that what she said seemed malicious. The key word is "seemed." I suspect it actually was not. But it came across that way.

We agree it wasn't an ideal response. Good. I'm quite comfortable and content with that. Like I have already said - I don't condemn her for it. It's understandable.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #170 on: 12 Jan 2019, 04:34 »

I really can't believe how impassioned and out-of-proportion this debate has got.

*Checks thread-title* Uhmmmmmmh ...  :psyduck:

Let me summarise in the simplest terms I know.

Please do. Thank you for your consideration.

Faye was not being cruel or malicious. She was upset because her friend had been seriously hurt, indeed nearly killed. She was reacting to this by lashing out verbally at the most proximate cause for her own distress to hand. This is not a moral failing; it's being human.

Pretty good point, actually.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #171 on: 12 Jan 2019, 04:51 »

No one has mentioned the liability of whoever the nincompoop was that left a crate of bananas on the traveled portion of the sidewalk, particularly in a neighborhood frequented by abnormally large sentient robots.  Crushie's insurance carrier is no doubt investigating the possibility of subrogating to recover at least part of their loss.  (Proportional liability - how much of the fault rests with Crushbot and how much with the Banana Leaver - will be discussed in pretrial negotiations and argued at court if the case goes to trial, but they seldom do.)

Wel, no one of any consequence. And even they haven't mentioned it for a while....

Whoever negligently left the bananaskins on the footpath better have good insurance, or this will not end well.
« Last Edit: 12 Jan 2019, 04:57 by ZoeB »
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #172 on: 12 Jan 2019, 05:03 »

I've actually put a good amount of thought into this when my best friend got hit by a septigenerian lady with terrible cataracts in both eyes. Turns out her kids (who were also her lawyers) knew and let her continue driving anyways.

Well, that's alarming. What happened?
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #173 on: 12 Jan 2019, 05:10 »

1) What Faye said was entirely human nature. It was also farnarkling insensitive and even cruel. Her Bad.
2) Depending on Crushbot's mental state, it could be just as psychologically damaging to him as his fall was to Roko. An accident, to be sure.
3) Examining deeds not words, Faye is trying to make things right. So not deliberately cruel.
4) Faye may have a more robust and forthright relationship with Crushbot than I've allowed for, due to past history. Chance of psychologically hurting Crushbot might be negligible, and she knows it.
5) *I* still like Crushbot. So she's wrong.

Oh and by the way - I wasn't allowed to renew my driver's licence here in Australia at age 60 as I failed the quickie eyesight test at the motor registry. Not till I got a full workup from an optometrist, and a formal letter saying I was safe as long as I had annual checkups henceforth.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #174 on: 12 Jan 2019, 06:56 »

I guess I'm in the minority here. I didn't read it as an intentional expression of anger from Faye at all, but more as a Southern Grandma thing.
"Bernard, nobody's gonna like you for a little while. You need to deal with that."
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #175 on: 12 Jan 2019, 07:19 »

...Faye's comment just looked like a statement of fact to me. Malicious? Only in that it was blunt, and social appropriateness usually calls for an annoying song and dance, I guess. Actually I smirked a little when I read it since she was actually being fair, less emotionally overbearing, than usual.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #176 on: 12 Jan 2019, 07:46 »

I guess I'm in the minority here. I didn't read it as an intentional expression of anger from Faye at all, but more as a Southern Grandma thing.
"Bernard, nobody's gonna like you for a little while. You need to deal with that."
Fay-Fay is a southerner, so it fits.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #177 on: 12 Jan 2019, 10:09 »

As others have pointed out,  Faye has known Crushbot for some time, longer than she's known Roko and being Faye she's developed some level of friendship with him, and he with her, not unlike a doctor/patient relationship.  She's a nurturing personality under all the prickle she's pounded dents and dings out and reassembled him a number of times.  Any feelings of friendship Faye may have toward Roko are really quite recent.  SordidEuphemism is spot on about Faye's use of southernisms. 

Faye is just telling Crushbot, "Shut up and hold still," and he's receiving the message loud and clear.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #178 on: 12 Jan 2019, 10:45 »

I guess I'm in the minority here. I didn't read it as an intentional expression of anger from Faye at all, but more as a Southern Grandma thing.
"Bernard, nobody's gonna like you for a little while. You need to deal with that."
Fay-Fay is a southerner, so it fits.

Once again please, for the Non-Americans: Is this the 'tough love'-thingy we hear so much about?

Is it specific to the American south, or sort of a universal feature with local variations?
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #179 on: 12 Jan 2019, 10:57 »

Here is an account of an extreme version of tough love.  I was surprised to find that such a book could even exist today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25268343
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #180 on: 12 Jan 2019, 11:07 »

The "parents" who follow that book should never see their children again.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #181 on: 12 Jan 2019, 11:07 »

I really liked how Jeph kind of took us into one of the most degrading of the aspects of the trans experience: people asking very personal questions about your body, and whether and you'd had surgery. I particularly think it's great that he brought the whole debate about whether or not Claire has had genital corrective surgery directly into the narrative, even if only indirectly.

I hope that the next time somebody wants to speculate about Claire, they'll think about Roko's response to the question about whether or not she now has nipples...

Jeph has also addressed the issue head on in a tweet.
I missed that one. Can you point me to it?  (Unless you mean the "on discussoin of private parts", which I was trying to sort of call back to...)

There was also a short tweet which I can't find in a casual search to the effect that it's none of our business what anyone's junk looks like and stop asking. I wonder if I quoted it in the wiki maybe.

EDIT: I didn't.
« Last Edit: 12 Jan 2019, 11:17 by Is it cold in here? »
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #182 on: 12 Jan 2019, 11:12 »

The "parents" who follow that book should never see their children again.

It's not just parents by the way. In more than a handful of US states it's still legal for teachers to beat students.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #183 on: 12 Jan 2019, 11:55 »

Ye gods.  Sometimes, I swear that if I had a doomsday device, I'd use it.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #184 on: 12 Jan 2019, 12:23 »

Nipples. 

Hmmmm. 

I know Jeph doesn't usually use anything remotely sexual as a plot point, but I kind of hope that's a plot point. 

Given how repressed Roko is about her bread fetish and her occasional admiration of cute boys, I am in fact hoping that occasional unaccustomed  sexual sensation from nipples might ... I dunno, either prompt her to start dealing with her own needs, or at least give us some funny scenes as failing to deal with her own needs becomes just that one little bit more difficult.

And I'm not even sorry. 
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #185 on: 12 Jan 2019, 12:24 »

Here is an account of an extreme version of tough love.  I was surprised to find that such a book could even exist today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25268343

This is disgusting. A manual for child abuse. Excuse my strong viewpoint, but the authors belong behind bars, or in a psychiatric ward.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #186 on: 12 Jan 2019, 12:54 »

Nipples. 

Hmmmm. 

I know Jeph doesn't usually use anything remotely sexual as a plot point, but I kind of hope that's a plot point. 

Given how repressed Roko is about her bread fetish and her occasional admiration of cute boys, I am in fact hoping that occasional unaccustomed  sexual sensation from nipples might ... I dunno, either prompt her to start dealing with her own needs, or at least give us some funny scenes as failing to deal with her own needs becomes just that one little bit more difficult.

And I'm not even sorry. 
I remember a lot of Faye's issues stemming from (or at least being exacerbated by) Sven shacking up with some chick while he and Faye were in a weird unhealthy "sometimes we bump into each other. Naked. With our crotches" thing

Oh yeah, the Pearls. I heard about them a loooong time ago, from following various atheist and liberal blogs.

This lady in particular writes about them a lot: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/authoritarian-parenting
Their attitudes aren't focussed just in child abuse either: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/created-to-be-his-help-meet
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #187 on: 12 Jan 2019, 14:08 »

Here is an account of an extreme version of tough love.  I was surprised to find that such a book could even exist today:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25268343

That book is from the pits of Hell, and I despise how popular it and its teachings are among my people.

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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #188 on: 12 Jan 2019, 14:49 »

I guess I'm in the minority here. I didn't read it as an intentional expression of anger from Faye at all, but more as a Southern Grandma thing.
"Bernard, nobody's gonna like you for a little while. You need to deal with that."
Fay-Fay is a southerner, so it fits.

Once again please, for the Non-Americans: Is this the 'tough love'-thingy we hear so much about?

Is it specific to the American south, or sort of a universal feature with local variations?

Tough-Love is a phrase with significant baggage, as evidenced by the 'To Raise Up A Child' hideousness and some of the darker shades of AA and pseudo-religious organizations throughout the US.

What I'm commenting on was the idea that Crushbot, whether sincere or not in his remorse, will still find people who think negatively of him or of the situation, and needs to be prepared for that. That's the message I saw in Faye's statement. With her typical rough edges.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #189 on: 12 Jan 2019, 16:29 »

As others have pointed out,  Faye has known Crushbot for some time, longer than she's known Roko and being Faye she's developed some level of friendship with him, and he with her, not unlike a doctor/patient relationship. 
Do we know this for a fact? Supporting documentation please.
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Tova

Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #190 on: 12 Jan 2019, 17:12 »

I think I said this already, but if they are friends, I will happily concede everything I said. I do mean happily. I would like this to be true.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #191 on: 12 Jan 2019, 17:51 »

Oh Christ on a bike.

I was going to say something pithy about Crushbot, but you know what, the WCDT does it again.

Fuck it, I'm done.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #192 on: 12 Jan 2019, 18:03 »

It's been educational for me to be on the other side of this recurring debate for a change. It will change my perspective from here on.

Since I started this, I guess, feel free to address me specifically, Castlerook. I won't be offended if you tell me there's something I posted that I should not have, or some behaviour of mine I should refrain from. I'd rather know than not. Thanks.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #193 on: 13 Jan 2019, 00:27 »

As others have pointed out,  Faye has known Crushbot for some time, longer than she's known Roko and being Faye she's developed some level of friendship with him, and he with her, not unlike a doctor/patient relationship. 
Do we know this for a fact? Supporting documentation please.

No, no one knows about anything in-strip for fact.  It's all fiction out of Jeph's noggin.  Are you asking if I can support my conclusions by citing the story as presented in strip?  Why, yes.  Yes I can.

Crushbot did his crushing and no doubt was crushed from time to time in the robot fights at Corpsewitch's facility.  That's canon.

Faye made her living repairing the crushed robots.  IIRC, Crushbot was first introduced while undergoing post-match repairs.  I think it's a safe assumption that Faye "treated" Crushbot (along with every other 'droid in the place) for various instances of battle damage great and small. 

Most of Faye's contacts with Roko have been of a citizen/cop or even suspect/cop nature.  Their first non-adversarial contact was Roko's wrecked ankle. 

I stand by my conclusion - Faye has logged far more time in cordial contact with Crushbot than with Roko. 
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #194 on: 13 Jan 2019, 01:02 »

Finally found the tweet.

"Dear everyone who ever asks about Claire’s junk: it’s none of your business what’s in somebody else’s pants. Stop it."

https://mobile.twitter.com/jephjacques/status/517429434958487553?lang=en
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #195 on: 13 Jan 2019, 05:51 »

I was going to say something pithy about Crushbot



Oh Christ on a bike. I was going to say something pithy about Crushbot, but you know what, the WCDT does it again.

Fuck it, I'm done.

It's been educational for me to be on the other side of this recurring debate for a change. It will change my perspective from here on.

Since I started this, I guess, feel free to address me specifically, Castlerook. I won't be offended if you tell me there's something I posted that I should not have, or some behaviour of mine I should refrain from. I'd rather know than not. Thanks.

Same here.
« Last Edit: 13 Jan 2019, 06:02 by Case »
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #196 on: 13 Jan 2019, 06:48 »

No, no one knows about anything in-strip for fact.  It's all fiction out of Jeph's noggin.  Are you asking if I can support my conclusions by citing the story as presented in strip?  Why, yes.  Yes I can.
That's what I meant. I have no prior memory of Crushbot from the fights.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #197 on: 13 Jan 2019, 08:16 »

So what is Roko's new chassis going to be like?

Pretentious like a Porsche.    9 (30%) <= Okay, maybe not quite, but that tattoo on the butt?
Purple Monkey Dishwasher!    7 (23.3%) <= We need more Purple Monkey Dishwashers.
That dream of being a toaster is FINALLY REALIZED!    4 (13.3%)
Big Badonkadonk like a Kardashian.    3 (10%)
HAH! She looks like Lemon!    3 (10%)
Pigtails (and her other accoutrements) like Momo.    2 (6.7%)
Attitude and glitches like May.    2 (6.7%)
Worse - she looks like PINTSIZE.    0 (0%) <= Oh the pain, oh the shame...

Total Members Voted: 30
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #198 on: 13 Jan 2019, 08:29 »

Just to throw my two cents in, Faye could have simply said "everybody's pissed at you right now" instead of "nobody likes you right now".  It would have been equally chastising without being the uncalled-for harsh emotional bullying.   That's exactly the kind of negative reinforcement that can lead to suicidal thoughts and acts.  And I speak from experience there.

Although the bullying IS in character for Faye, so maybe this is leading to some more growth for her.

To those saying "that's just how she normally is, how she always treats her friends", that doesn't make it okay.
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Re: WCDT 7-11 January 2019 (3911-3915)
« Reply #199 on: 13 Jan 2019, 08:50 »

No, no one knows about anything in-strip for fact.  It's all fiction out of Jeph's noggin.  Are you asking if I can support my conclusions by citing the story as presented in strip?  Why, yes.  Yes I can.
That's what I meant. I have no prior memory of Crushbot from the fights.
And now that I've had time to look, I may be confusing Crushbot with another *bot.  (He certainly fits the profile of a Robot Ring contestant.)

So, I do have to dial it back.  If he is a former fighter at the "Skate Park," Faye's known him longer than she's known Roko. 
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