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Author Topic: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)  (Read 32265 times)

Thrillho

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #150 on: 22 Feb 2019, 15:12 »

I'm mixed race, UK. I get asked sometimes. I don't care, it isn't something I've ever found rude. Similarly, I ask people where they are from. No-one has ever said it's rude.

It's not rude, in the UK. At least, not that I've ever noticed. It's actually one of the first things people ask, along with 'what do you do ?' (what is your employment ?).  Perhaps that's only amongst WASPs but I don't think so. If you're apparently anglo-saxon, the first thing is to attempt to recognise your accent for UK regions. If it's obvious but non-local it's likely to get a comment / request for confirmation. If it's ambiguous you get asked for clarification.

If accent or skin colour is clearly not UK you'll get asked where you come from, with an aspect of 'ooh, you're more interesting than average', not 'how strongly can I look down on you'. The only possibility of embarrassment is when you identify someone as exotic (a compliment) and discover they're actually third-generation english.

So I was truly amazed to discover here last week that it's offensive in USA-land. And a bit sorry for y'all.

I am also in the UK and have discussed at length what these things mean over here.

Question. Are you white?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #151 on: 22 Feb 2019, 16:06 »

Maybe while we're at it, we could have a discussion of the meaning of the question, "Are you white?"
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #152 on: 22 Feb 2019, 16:10 »


If accent or skin colour is clearly not UK you'll get asked where you come from (...)

I'm somewhat troubled you seem to be saying there's a skin colour that is "not UK" and thereby that there is, or are, skin colours that are UK. Which colours are that? Are you implying that UK, a former global colonial power, is or should be associated with particular skin tones? That's a... bold statement.

I'm trying really hard not to jump to the conclusion that you just mean "not UK" as in "not white", but I struggle to think how to interpret your words, given that former British colonies cover pretty much every shade of skin I can think of and modern UK is primarily white overall, but has significant, multiple ethnic minorities.

So, again, could you specify a skin tone that you consider typically and clearly "not UK"?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #153 on: 22 Feb 2019, 19:55 »

Maybe while we're at it, we could have a discussion of the meaning of the question, "Are you white?"

Far as I understand the categories used west of the chunnel, I'm 'white, other'.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #154 on: 22 Feb 2019, 21:50 »


This has been discussed at length over the last two weeks (ever since Peter, IMO, came out as a xenophile[1]) but, basically, it boils down to sounding as if you are saying: "I intend to judge and categorise you on the basis of your ethnicity." It can be and, in most cases, probably is just innocent curiosity motivated by the deeply rooted instinctive response to people who look and/or behaviour differently from our close family and general community. However, it has also been a lead in to attempting to somehow justify the exclusion of the person who is being asked the question, so a lot of people react negatively to the question.

When something upsets a lot of people, even if you cannot understand why, it's best simply not to do it.

Yeah I dunno, it just sounds like another excuse for people to be offended. I've just started work as a corrections officer and one of my colleagues is Indian but has an African accent so I asked where he was from and it turns out he was from South Africa so we talked about the differences between SA and NZ but then to work in corrections you cant be too precious about minor, unimportant things I guess
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #155 on: 22 Feb 2019, 22:19 »

Yeah I dunno, it just sounds like another excuse for people to be offended. I've just started work as a corrections officer and one of my colleagues is Indian but has an African accent so I asked where he was from and it turns out he was from South Africa so we talked about the differences between SA and NZ but then to work in corrections you cant be too precious about minor, unimportant things I guess

In my experience, it is not being offended that is important, but why. People of color in majority white communities (particularly poc who aren't black) are often presumed to be foreign (at least from where I sit in the US midwest). If you're vaguely brown, you will almost certainly be asked where you're from, even if you have a distinctly midwest accent. "DeBuke" is generally not accepted as an answer. "But where are you really from?" "Where is your family from?" "I mean ethnically?" It's exhausting. More importantly, it is a constant reminder that people in your community think of you as an outsider even if you were born and raised there. It's the background radiation of racism. It isn't any single instance that's a problem, it's the constant exposure.

Now, I've asked that question before. A young, white-as-fresh-snow dietitian ordered a "pop" rather than a "soda". Pop is more common in the midwest, but my city is a bizarre linguistic anomaly in a lot of ways. Turns out, she was from Nebraska. Being white, she likely doesn't encounter that question a lot. When she does, it isn't to mark her as an outsider, as an "other". It wasn't a problem. But supposing she wasn't white? Suppose her grandparents immigrated here from Bangladesh? Then she probably would get that a lot more often and for much less benign reasons. Then it's a problem.

Maybe while we're at it, we could have a discussion of the meaning of the question, "Are you white?"

Now that is an interesting question. White has often meant whatever it needed to mean to protect the power structure. When I think of various western European peoples for whom I know at least one ethnic slur, it occurs to me that there was likely a point in history that they were not considered "white". I think that we can assume that someone asking "are you white?" probably means "Do you generally receive the benefits of being assumed to be white by your peers in a majority white former imperial power?"
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #156 on: 23 Feb 2019, 02:04 »

It's not rude, in the UK. At least, not that I've ever noticed.

Whether in the UK or the US or anywhere else, it is important to remember that society is hugely varied, both in its make-up, and in the amount of variety of that make-up in particular parts of it.  Most of us only ever experience real engagement with a limited subset of the possibilities, and so it is incumbent on us to realise that we are not in a position to deny the experience of others, even within our own countries.

Of course, we naturally view the world through the lens of our own personal experience.  But one of the wonders of communication in the modern world is that we have the opportunity to see that there are things we were previously unaware of, and to learn to deal with other people with flexibility, a modicum of understanding, and as much humility as we can muster.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #157 on: 23 Feb 2019, 02:15 »


So, again, could you specify a skin tone that you consider typically and clearly "not UK"?

Personally, I'm pasty white. And yes, I know that means I don't have the same experience of racism as all the people who aren't. And that assumptions I might make about skin tone that reflects near & far east, southern europe, whatever, are likely to result in errors in terms of real nationality.

What I'm saying is that the default position for pasty white englishmen is that anyone who doesn't appear to be from their local area - city, region or country - is that they're interesting and have a story to tell. Of course, there are segments of the population that have a different attitude. But it wouldn't occur to me to teach my children not to ask - I've never found anyone to show any offense, and I live and work in thoroughly multiracial areas.

There are also areas which have significant ethnic splits - some northern cities in particular. The people I know from those areas act much the same, but I can't speak for the specific experience of being a racial minority in an area where there's a substantial racist group. Perhaps in those circumstances there is more of a threat in the question. I would consider it a local peculiarity, not the common experience.
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Thrillho

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #158 on: 23 Feb 2019, 03:06 »

You realise that you are telling us what the experience of racial minorities is, when there are people on here who are racial minorities saying their experience is not that?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #159 on: 23 Feb 2019, 05:07 »

I wrote extensively about my experiences with being asked the question "Where are you from?" and why I am so f****** over it, when this first came up in the comic 2 weeks ago. If you truly want to understand, that would be a good place to start.
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War Sparrow

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #160 on: 23 Feb 2019, 05:11 »


Yeah I dunno, it just sounds like another excuse for people to be offended. I've just started work as a corrections officer and one of my colleagues is Indian but has an African accent so I asked where he was from and it turns out he was from South Africa so we talked about the differences between SA and NZ but then to work in corrections you cant be too precious about minor, unimportant things I guess

To me, it's not about being "precious". I was just taught it's not polite to basically demand someone justify their right to be somewhere just because they have a different accent, or skin colour, or whatnot. If someone brings it up themselves, then absolutely I'll ask.  If not? Then it's none of my business.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #161 on: 23 Feb 2019, 08:45 »

When something upsets a lot of people, even if you cannot understand why, it's best simply not to do it.

Yeah I dunno, it j6ust sounds like another excuse for people to be offended. I've just started work as a corrections officer and one of my colleagues is Indian but has an African accent so I asked where he was from and it turns out he was from South Africa so we talked about the differences between SA and NZ but then to work in corrections you cant be too precious about minor, unimportant things I guess

Do you realize that you have just claimed that asking someone else's heritage isn't offensive based on your one experience of you asking  an immigrant with a non-white heritage and them not telling you off?

Like ... even if we forget for a second that the plural of anecdote isn't data - or that the debate was about the offense implicit in treating non-white compatriots like immigrants - maybe their opinion of the alleged incident would be more pertinent than yours?

It's not all just about what's going around in our own precious noggin, see?
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2019, 09:44 by Case »
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PeterO

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #162 on: 23 Feb 2019, 09:05 »

Speaking as some one who has spent twenty years in the field, it irks me when people misuse perfectly valid medical terminology.  Mental retardation was fine as a term until asshats ruined it by using it as a pejorative, now they're destroying autism as well.  The result?  Professionals like Brun's doctor sound like insensitive jerks when they're just trying to deliver a diagnosis.

Don't even get me started on "aspies".   That phrase makes me want to shove someone's head in a propellor.

I think all terms for "people who are different" gradually become perjorative or at least less socially acceptable over time. And, yes, it is the asshats who start the problem, followed closely by well intentioned people who then stop using the term because the asshats use it perjoratively. At that point a formerly acceptable term is no longer acceptable. Extra annoying when it is valid science or engineering terminology.

My teacher friend showed me a letter she got a few years ago from school administration that roughly said "please stop using the terms retarded or mentally retarded, some people find them offensive. You should use developmentally delayed instead" The punch line is she then showed me a similar letter she got twentyfive years ago that said "please stop using the terms slow or feebleminded, people find them offensive. Use retarded or mentally retarded instead" 



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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #163 on: 23 Feb 2019, 09:46 »

This is a great example of where the Golden Rule doesn't guide you correctly.

If someone asks pale white me "Where are you from?" in an economically vibrant area where most people are not natives, it's OK.

That doesn't mean I can ask someone else without risking genuine offense. It's not going to come across as being about geography for many non-white people.

Asking when there's an actual reason or the person has brought it up should be all right. The tailor who did my Harry Hart costume eventually starting chatting with my wife about skin care and said something about how "we Asian women" took that seriously. My wife asked the open-ended question what her "heritage" was, and the tailor was pleased with the question.

If I'd walked in the first day with my photo references and said "Where are you from? No, ethnically?"  I would have provided solid grounds for significant offense.
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los_alamos_bomb

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #164 on: 23 Feb 2019, 10:28 »

American here.  Lived all over the country, many regions, small towns and big cities.  Clarifying so our friends from Europe and Australia don't get the wrong idea.

It's not offensive to ask someone their ethnic heritage here.  It's a fairly common topic of civilized discussion.  I ask my white friends about theirs ("Irish and German" is a legitimate answer) and they ask about mine.  I ask my brown friends and they ask about mine.  I ask my friends of all colors and shapes and sizes (well, it's tough to have that conversation with African-Americans, simply because there's usually no way for them to know.  America's great tragedy and national shame and all that).  I can't remember a time when there's been any kind of hurt feelings or animosity as a result.  These are perfectly lovely conversations.  Sometimes they last 30 seconds, sometimes hours.

This is something that bugs me about Jeph's particular brand of wokeness: the assumption that if you can find a way to be insulted by something, you should.  To be honest, Brun's matter-of-fact reaction to Peter's question about her ethnicity seemed totally legit.  If she doesn't want to have an emotional stake in answering that question, then she doesn't have to.  Sure, Peter's take on the issue of ethnicity (ie. "Tell me your heritage so I can get a boner over it") is reductive and depersonalizing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that curiosity about someone's genetic background is bad overall.

Look, using someone's racial heritage as a way to otherize them sucks.  Don't do it.  And if someone approaches it in that way ("Where are you from?  No, but I mean where are you from?  Tell me where you come from, strange one!") then you have every right to shut them down.  But don't get so wrapped up in your fears of persecution that persecution becomes self-fulfilling.  I play acoustic guitar and I like ultimate frisbee and part of my family is from Istanbul.  These are all parts of me, and if someone wants to get to know me better, why would I get upset at them for it?  I don't get mad when someone asks if I play a musical instrument or what sports I like, so why would I get mad when they ask about my family's history?

It's ok to be interested in people.  It's ok to be curious about people.  It's ok to be attracted to people.  It's ok to ask about people.  There is no set of things that are inherently wrong to be interested in or curious about or attracted to.  Be polite, be kind, be understanding, and move forward.
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chris73

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #165 on: 23 Feb 2019, 10:49 »


It's not all just about what's going around in our own precious noggin, see?
[/quote]

If the worst thing that happens to you in a day is someone expresses interest in your background  then it's a pretty good day so to this is just another situation where someone gets to play the victim, again.

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #166 on: 23 Feb 2019, 11:23 »

I'm just going to leave this here because it seems like clicking a link is a hard thing to do. Honestly, I think we're getting into "learn to take a compliment" territory.

Your curiosity does not trump my right to only share things I feel comfortable sharing. And this rant aside, my skin colour has much less relevancy to who I am as a person than anything else you could ask about - like my work, or how was my day/weekend, what I do for fun, things I enjoy, etc even with the topic of the weather - you'd likely learn how I don't notice the heat much but I feel the cold really badly (even in our very really quite mild winters).


(Hi. I've been here before, but can't remember my account details.)
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pwhodges

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #167 on: 23 Feb 2019, 11:37 »

If the worst thing that happens to you in a day is someone expresses interest in your background  then it's a pretty good day so to this is just another situation where someone gets to play the victim, again.

Sometimes someone is a victim, though - so we mustn't completely discount that possibility.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #168 on: 23 Feb 2019, 12:06 »

If the worst thing that happens to you in a day is someone expresses interest in your background  then it's a pretty good day so to this is just another situation where someone gets to play the victim, again.

Sure. Taken in isolation, if the very worst thing that happens is that someone asks about your heritage then it isn't so bad. But what so many of us are trying to explain is that it so very often isn't the worst thing that happens. It doesn't happen in isolation. For many people of color, that seemingly innocuous question is often followed by "But where are you from?" That follow up question implies the rejection of that person as one of "us". As a white American from the midwest, I have never, not even once, been asked that follow up question. Therefore, I literally cannot understand how that feels. I can only take people at their word that it sucks.

And as I have said before, it isn't the singular instance that hurts. It is the repeated exposure. It is radiation. It is a single bee sting among a swarm. It is a gentle poke in the ribs. After enough poking, it no longer matters that a poke is gentle and meant no ill will because the constant poking has left your ribs bruised and raw. Maybe you were benign in your intent, but it still hurts.

And maybe some people are perfectly OK with being asked about their heritage. That's great. I mean that. If they have one fewer thing that hurts them in their daily life then that can only be a good thing for them. But regardless of how they feel about it, it still hurts a lot of other people. So to avoid hurting those people, it is generally best to let people set the pace for when and whether they want to discuss their ethnicity.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #169 on: 23 Feb 2019, 12:12 »

I don't understand the resistance to good manners.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #170 on: 23 Feb 2019, 12:17 »


[/quote]

Sometimes someone is a victim, though - so we mustn't completely discount that possibility.
[/quote]

For sure but much like the amount of people that claim to be gluten intolerant versus the amount who actually are there are a helluva lot of people claiming victim status versus those who actually are victims
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #171 on: 23 Feb 2019, 12:23 »

Who the hell are you to tell someone whether or not they are being victimised? You do realise how condescending and dismissive you sound, right?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #172 on: 23 Feb 2019, 12:25 »

For sure but much like the amount of people that claim to be gluten intolerant versus the amount who actually are there are a helluva lot of people claiming victim status versus those who actually are victims

That sounds all too like "it's not really common, so it doesn't really matter". 

First, not being common doesn't mean that it doesn't matter, and:
Second, maybe in some places it's more common than you realise.

Good manners doesn't hurt you; but bad manners can hurt someone else, so take care and be sensitive.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #173 on: 23 Feb 2019, 13:25 »


For sure but much like the amount of people that claim to be gluten intolerant versus the amount who actually are there are a helluva lot of people claiming victim status versus those who actually are victims

Oh good. Now we're talking about food and that is in my wheel house.

In my safe serve courses, there was a lot of emphasis on food allergies, food intolerance,  and immune compromised people. Making sure that my food preparation practices are safe for those people is a vital part of running my coffee shop.

Maybe I might argue that I've never gotten sick eating my home cooking and I don't use sanitizer or vinyl gloves. Maybe I might argue that people with food sensitivities aren't actually all that common and i shouldn't have to compromise efficiency to accommodate them. Maybe I might decide that this customer doesn't really have a dairy allergy, they're just being demanding. And if they do, then they shouldn't be ordering at a coffee shop where 90 percent of what I make has dairy in it.

I could make those arguments. And I might sometimes be right. Not washing my hands that one time really didn't make someone sick. They really didn't have a dairy allergy. But the consequences of being wrong are severe. It is so much better to take them at their word that they can't have milk and clean my equipment a second time just to be sure that they'll be fine.

And maybe, just maybe, it's worth it to respect people who tell me how being constantly reminded about how they're seen as outsiders impacts them. And all I have to give up is not insisting on my right to ask brown people where they're really from.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #174 on: 23 Feb 2019, 15:09 »

[maybe] they really didn't have a dairy allergy. But the consequences of being wrong are severe.

Just to emphasise this:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/24/father-of-girl-who-died-of-allergy-on-plane-blames-pret-a-manger

Asking where someone is from may not typically be deadly; but at the least one should assume that it can have the effect on people that some of them say it can!
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #175 on: 23 Feb 2019, 16:21 »


EDIT: I had the wrong attribution on the quote. I am very sorry.
<snip>
However, it has also been a lead in to attempting to somehow justify the exclusion of the person who is being asked the question, so a lot of people react negatively to the question.
<snip>

That's the core of it, and from listening to people I've learned that it happens so often that a conscientious adult will exercise strict caution about interrogating people on their ethnicity.

« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2019, 21:37 by Is it cold in here? »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #176 on: 23 Feb 2019, 17:31 »

<snip>
However, it has also been a lead in to attempting to somehow justify the exclusion of the person who is being asked the question, so a lot of people react negatively to the question.
<snip>

That's the core of it, and from listening to people I've learned that it happens so often that a conscientious adult will exercise strict caution about interrogating people on their ethnicity.

Don't disagree - but I believe the credit for that fine phrase goes to BenRG.
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Redball

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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #177 on: 23 Feb 2019, 17:53 »

In the 1960s, i spent 21 months in Bombay in a U.S. Peace Corps family planning program. I felt perfectly at home there, although I doubt that I was an effective volunteer – a conclusion which had nothing to do with the 25 million population increase from the start of training to my departure.
At some point, back in the States, I'd ask someone (always male, I think) who appeared to come from the subcontinent where their "native place" was. I always got an answer. Sometimes it was Bangladesh or Pakistan. If India, I'd say something about my own experience.
The conversation never turned sour, but never lasted more than a few minutes, maybe seconds.
Reading the comments above, I cringe at the memory. I think I can stop now. At 81, that shouldn't be difficult.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #178 on: 23 Feb 2019, 19:42 »

I think the first time I saw "autistic" as an insult was...oh, remember when wankers were crying about the new Star Wars, especially that woman whose name I can't remember (but who, not coincidentally, wasn't white. Yay racism!) I was reading a liberal blog post about it, which quoted one of the manbabies, which used "autistic" in a string of insults. It was a real "wtf" moment for me.

As for myself, I'm not aware of any instances when people disfavored me explicitly because of my diagnosis, though I'm pretty sure my bosses basically see me as "the hardworking retard" and I'm unpromotable. It's more, there are expectations of "normal", ranging from facial expressions and body language, to how to respond to nuances in spoken language that I just don't even notice. I'm pretty offputting irl, and people kind of...just don't want to deal with that, absent any specific prejudice. Can't blame them, really.

I'm so sorry all that happened to you, Hoodiecrow. I'd like to think that people aren't that explicitly terrible now. But screw those guys.

When something upsets a lot of people, even if you cannot understand why, it's best simply not to do it.
So, basically, never do anything.
Yes, exactly. It's everyone else's fault. Go sit in your basement feeling sorry for yourself.
I don't know about 'across the pond', but here in the states "not a team player"/"you don't seem like a team player" seem to be how companies get around anti-discrimination laws when it comes to those of us who are neurodivergent.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #179 on: 23 Feb 2019, 19:57 »

At will employment makes it all but impossible to make discrimination charges stick. "You're not s good fit for the corporate culture here" is a valid reason to fire someone, so just try proving that it was really because you're neurodivergent/queer/trans/black etc. (Where those protections even exist)
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #180 on: 23 Feb 2019, 21:19 »

I don't think that "you're not a good fit for the corporate culture here" would cut it as grounds for dismissal in Australia, and depending on circumstances, would probably be considered to be unfair dismissal.

Edit: Okay, I think this is relevant.

http://www.antidiscrimination.justice.nsw.gov.au/Pages/legal-cases/cultural-fit-age-discrimination.aspx
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #181 on: 23 Feb 2019, 21:48 »

Now that is an interesting question. White has often meant whatever it needed to mean to protect the power structure. When I think of various western European peoples for whom I know at least one ethnic slur, it occurs to me that there was likely a point in history that they were not considered "white". I think that we can assume that someone asking "are you white?" probably means "Do you generally receive the benefits of being assumed to be white by your peers in a majority white former imperial power?"

That's a well-considered response on what "white" might mean. I do think, though, that what the question means to different people is going to be heavily dependant on its context, and that there won't be one interpretation. To be upfront about it, my instinctive interpretation of the question in this thread's context, rightly or not, was, "Do you have the right to express a point of view here?" Feel free to send me your brickbats.

As an aside, I would probably answer "yes" to the paraphrased question you've put above, but I actually have been asked whether I'm white a number of times (I'm not really "pasty white"), and coincidentally twice in the last week. I interpreted that as curiosity both times - of course, for someone that does not get asked that question frequently and doesn't need to worry about any consequences of the answer, it is easy for me to interpret the question that way. I can certainly see how it would not be so easy for others. I also understand the potential frustration of being asked the same questions over and over (for different reasons).

In the interests of transparency, I would have to admit that I did not get taught at age 9 that it was rude to ask about people's ethnicity, and I would guess that I have done so in the past, or at least when I was younger. More recently, I would say that it's not a question I would ask of someone I'd just met, though I wouldn't have been able to articulate why, probably. These recent comics have forced me to properly consider the issue.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #182 on: 23 Feb 2019, 23:11 »

Warning: the below are idle drunken ramblings barely related to subjects at hand.  seek re!Eva ce in them at your own risk.

Brun's doctor should not have told her she was autistic.  He should have said that Brun had autism.  Maybe she would still like doctors then.  In my field were taught...and I myself have taught others...not to reduce e people that way.  If you are a person ith autism you can be a person with other things too...like a knowledge of c!ocks or skill ith a harpoon.  If I call you an autistic person that implies that that is all you are.

I've never asked anyone hat their heritage is based on appearance.  Not claiming moral high ground...it just doesn't occur to me.  I had to ask one coworker where her beautiful accent originated thiugh.  Haiti, as it turned out.

I guess I just assume if you're in America with me, you must be American too.

People who make a fuss about gluten in their food who don't actually have celiac disease irk me.

I agree that some people seem to look for things to get offended about.  But I have offended people before...not meaning to...and I've apologized for it.  If it seems that I'm offending you a lot without meaning to though, I'm going to start avoidingng you.

While grumbling about "retarded" changing from a diagnosis to an insult, I am reminded that the swastika went from a symbol of peace to one of unfettered evil.  Language and symbol!is exist to serve us, not the other way round, and I guess "retarded" is lingustic roadkill on the side if the freeway of progress.

Wonder what he next buzzword will be when "developmentally disabled"gets the bullet.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #183 on: 23 Feb 2019, 23:34 »

*snip*
Too often I find ASD be represented as sociopathic or neurotic, which is damaging to the image of those on the spectrum, both externally and internally.
*snip*
This is why I'd like it if Dan Akroyd and a few other ASD comedians and writers to get together and do a slice of life dramedy about life with ASD.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #184 on: 24 Feb 2019, 00:07 »

Maybe while we're at it, we could have a discussion of the meaning of the question, "Are you white?"
There's a lot of history behind that. It goes back to the end of the American Civil War, but a big bulk of it occurs around the turn of the 20th century when eugenics started picking up traction.
It would seem that Cecil 'Colossus' Rhodes and his Rhodes Round Table may have had something of a heavy hand in that. At least if Mr. Rhodes' widely published last will and testament are anything to go by.

While trying to find any image of a pamphlet that was allegedly passed out by the US government during the Reconstruction Era (I remember it from a high school American History textbook), I came across the works of W.E.B. Du Bois as well as Charles Mills’ The Racial Contract.

EDIT: fixing grammar mistakes
« Last Edit: 24 Feb 2019, 05:32 by Gyrre »
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #185 on: 24 Feb 2019, 00:08 »

I haven't much contribued to this discussion, but here's one anecdote of mine.

A couple of years ago, we had a couple of new hires joining us: all four of them happened to be black. So, on their first evening, one of them came to me with a question about access to our documentation, and after I helped her, I asked: "By the way, where are you from?" Her answer: Rwanda. My reply: "That's interesting, but I meant where do you live?" I had just checked my connection home, and had found an accident blocked the closest station.

Just to say, even if you can bring anecdotes to show that people don't mind being asked, or that sometimes it is an innocent question, the simple fact that many people will just default to that answer straight away, does show you something about their experience.

Also, the US approach to ethnicity is sometimes very baffling this side of the ocean. I had an American tourist - while abroad myself - rattle off about a dozen of nationalities, when they found out I wasn't local. Some ancestor of theirs was Belgian, apparently. And trying to quantify just how much of each. Strange.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #186 on: 24 Feb 2019, 02:02 »

Brun's doctor should not have told her she was autistic.  He should have said that Brun had autism.  Maybe she would still like doctors then.  In my field were taught...and I myself have taught others...not to reduce e people that way.  If you are a person ith autism you can be a person with other things too...like a knowledge of c!ocks or skill ith a harpoon.  If I call you an autistic person that implies that that is all you are.

That is something I never understood, honestly. Being autistic, being an autist, having autism, being someone with autism. It all effectively means the same, I never saw a difference. And it seems to be random which of those phrases are "better"  than others. I've pretty much used them all and it never made a difference to me. Those are just words. What matters for me is what I'm describing. And for me, that doesn't change with the words I'm using.
It seems that, for some people, the words they use change the image in their heads. I'm not worth more or less than others because of who I am. Words won't change that.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #187 on: 24 Feb 2019, 02:52 »

In my opinion, the problem wasn't the doctor.

The problem was all of the people who turned the word "autistic" into an insult in the first place. If not for those people, then Brun's dad would not have been so upset at the term, and Brun might have a different relationship with doctors.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #188 on: 24 Feb 2019, 03:46 »

Brun's doctor should not have told her she was autistic.  He should have said that Brun had autism.  Maybe she would still like doctors then.  In my field were taught...and I myself have taught others...not to reduce e people that way.  If you are a person ith autism you can be a person with other things too...like a knowledge of c!ocks or skill ith a harpoon.  If I call you an autistic person that implies that that is all you are.

That is something I never understood, honestly. Being autistic, being an autist, having autism, being someone with autism. It all effectively means the same, I never saw a difference. And it seems to be random which of those phrases are "better"  than others. I've pretty much used them all and it never made a difference to me. Those are just words. What matters for me is what I'm describing. And for me, that doesn't change with the words I'm using.
It seems that, for some people, the words they use change the image in their heads. I'm not worth more or less than others because of who I am. Words won't change that.

Ah, lemme preach on that...just as I used to to new employees.

I am severely nearsighted, to the point of near-helplessness without the glasses I've worn since I was six.

If you take me to a party and introduce me as "the nearsighted guy", you have reduced me to that one tiny part of who I am.  I am now Mr. Magoo, Velma Dinkely, a cartoon, a cariacture.  Your guests will expect me to run into things,to trip over my own feet.  They will go home disappointed if, at some point during the festivities, I do not drop my glasses and crawl around on the floor looking for them.

If you introduce me instead as "a person with nearsightedness", that implies that I am, first and foremost, a person.  You are no !onger defining me by my handicap.

To address your comment, Tova,  I am not saying the doctor was at fault.  But, in the mental health field, referring to someone as autistic is a faux pas.  The correct term is "person with autism" and I theorize that Brun might have reacted less strongly to that phrase than to one that she had been conditioned to consider an insult.

But what do I know? I'm just a drunken old man...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #189 on: 24 Feb 2019, 04:08 »

Well. I'm just zis guy, you know.

And I promise that, if we ever meet, it wouldn't even occur to me to introduce you as either "the nearsighted guy" or "a person with nearsightedness." They are equally terrible ways to introduce someone, in my view.

But if someone were to ask why you wear glasses, on the other hand, I would probably say you're nearsighted. Well, at least, I would have without your implication that such wording upsets you.

I'm honestly surprised that you would interpret this statement as reducing you to a single stereotype, yet somehow using the clumsy wording "he has nearsightedness" does not. I don't understand, honestly. I would daresay that the majority of people would treat the two statements as synonymous. But, hey, I'd be happy to accommodate you if that's what you prefer.

Referring to someone as autistic is a faux pas only because of its previous use as a pejorative. Otherwise, it would be no more of a faux pas than referring to me as asthmatic (which you are free to do, by the way, because I am).
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #190 on: 24 Feb 2019, 04:22 »

Referring to someone as autistic is a faux pas only because of its previous use as a pejorative. Otherwise, it would be no more of a faux pas than referring to me as asthmatic (which you are free to do, by the way, because I am).

I feel that I'm not making my point here....

The practice of referring to, say, you as a "person with asthma" as opposed to an asthmatic is called "person-centered thinking" and it's a very real part of the professional culture of the mental health care field.  Calling you asthmatic would also be considered a faux pas in this culture.  It's less about not using perjorative terms than preventing the creation of those terms to begin with.

I'm not advocating that language for everyone... thought I easily could...but as a mental health professional,. Brun's doctor should have used it...and I can see where doing so might have benefitted Brun.

Now, if the distinction between an asthmatic and a person with asthma still seems negligible to you, then I have to question whether I was equally unsuccessful in making that point to the literally hundreds of people I trained over the last 20 years.  Were they really all just nodding and smiling to move things along?  Disquieting thought...yet I explained it to them the same I have here...
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #191 on: 24 Feb 2019, 06:27 »

I guess if phrasing things differently helps someone to view the other person as a person first and foremost, or if it helps to convey that they do, then that's cool. When thinking of myself, however, I manage just fine to be autistic AND queer AND intelligent AND funny and whatever. I can be more than one thing. I can refer to myself or be referred to as one of those things in a specific context, and other things in other contexts.

Also, if people want to reduce me to one stereotype, they also manage to do that just fine regardless of how they phrase it. This reminded me of the other topic that's been discussed here - I've had people introduce me to others as "X from [original country that I have minimal ties to]" because that was obviously the main thing they saw in me (fun fact: I don't even look different "ethnically"), and so it became the main thing about me for those other people, too. I, as a person, was technically the subject of their sentence, but it didn't seem to make a difference.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #192 on: 24 Feb 2019, 07:48 »

But what do I know? I'm just a drunken old man...
Shouldn't that be, "Person with dipsomania"?
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #193 on: 24 Feb 2019, 08:18 »

But what do I know? I'm just a drunken old man...
Shouldn't that be, "Person with dipsomania"?
Nah, that was hours ago. By now it’s either insomnia or veisalgia. :psyduck:
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #194 on: 24 Feb 2019, 09:06 »

There's a billion-dollar industry picking words to shape people's thinking, so there's some reality to it.

I know I've seen "person with ..." recommended in circles concerned with inclusion.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #195 on: 24 Feb 2019, 12:32 »

Now, if the distinction between an asthmatic and a person with asthma still seems negligible to you, then I have to question whether I was equally unsuccessful in making that point to the literally hundreds of people I trained over the last 20 years.  Were they really all just nodding and smiling to move things along?  Disquieting thought...yet I explained it to them the same I have here...

This isn't the first time I've heard of it, just to clarify. You're explaining the concept perfectly well, I assure you.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #196 on: 24 Feb 2019, 21:06 »

I know I've seen "person with ..." recommended in circles concerned with inclusion.
"Person with diabetes," "diabetic," "waffle syrup pisser," or "metformin popper" all mean the same thing, but I really prefer to be called "diabetic" 'cause it conveys all the necessary information with one word.  Unless I'm playing it for laughs - then #3 works best.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #197 on: 24 Feb 2019, 23:06 »

To add my observations to the discussion:
"Person with autism" tends to be preferred predominantly by parents and caretakers of autistic people.
"Autistic person" tends to be preferred very predominantly by autistic people.

(And when I say "Preferred very predominantly by autistic people" I mean "In polls where we're asked to decide between the two options presented above, "Autistic person" votes tend to be in the range of 80-90%.)

The reasoning is that autism is not simply an addition to our personality, but is in fact, foundational to who we are. In the same way that I am male, straight, etc., I am autistic - These are core parts of who I am, not baggage that I carry around with me and which could be discarded in the right circumstances.

If an autistic person requests to use person-first language I'll of course respect that, but I default to identity-first because that's (in my experience) what the vast majority of autistic people prefer.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #198 on: 24 Feb 2019, 23:20 »

To add on to the last thing I said, which gets away from observation and more into my opinion:
There's a concerning and harmful trend in the mental health field and amongst allistic parents of autistic children to try and eliminate, or at least cover up, autistic traits/identity. Autistic behavior is stigmatized and seen as both aberrant and in need of "fixing", even when that behavior is completely harmless. In worst-case scenarios, it's seen as subhuman and in need of complete elimination.
Autism isn't seen as a part of identity, it's seen as a boogeyman that's coming to steal away your children, to change who they "really" are, as though they had some kind of pre-autistic personality that their diagnosis stole away.
(If you need any convincing that this mentality exists, look up the "I am autism" commercial published by Autism Speaks from about a decade ago, in which autism itself is personified as a sinister predator who says such gems as, "If you were happily married, I will make sure your marriage fails" and "I will rob you of your children and your dreams".)

It's my opinion that the push for person-first language has a lot of strong connections to this mindset - Because professionals and parents often don't see autistic traits as even being human, they have to then distance the autism from the person in order to see any humanity at all. It's hard to use the words "autistic person" to describe a loved one when you think that "autistic" is a subversive corruption of who the person really is.
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Re: WCDT Strips 3941-3945 (18-22 February 2019)
« Reply #199 on: 25 Feb 2019, 01:31 »

Thanks for that insight.

Just to add more weight to this perspective, I'd like to quote the late Stella Young.

Quote from: Stella Young, writing a letter to her 80-year-old self.
I started changing my language. To jog your memory, back when you're still thirty there are all kinds of fights about whether we are allowed to say 'disabled people' at all. It's 'people with disabilities' that's all the rage. 'Cause we're, like, people first, you know? And if we don't say that we're people, folks might get confused. But I've never had to say that I'm a person who's a woman, or a person who is Australian, or a person who knits. Somehow, we're supposed to buy this notion that if we use the term disabled too much, it might strip us of our personhood. But that shame that has become attached to the notion of disability, it's not your shame. It took a while to learn that, so I hope that you've never forgotten.

I started calling myself a disabled woman, and a crip. A good thirteen years after seventeen-year-old me started saying crip, it still horrifies people. I do it because it's a word that makes me feel strong and powerful. It's a word other activists have used before me, and I use it to honour them.

You left us far too soon, Stella. :,(
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