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Poll

Socialized AI Medicine! What's May's response?

"You. Did. All. This. For ME?"
- 4 (10%)
@!#&%^&*%^%^*(^%*(&^(*&!!!!
- 13 (32.5%)
"Seriously, you mean it?"
- 0 (0%)
"Oh, yeah, right, sure, and I'm going to grow wings and fly away."
- 15 (37.5%)
"Do I get a cut of this?"
- 3 (7.5%)
"Purple Monkey Dishwashers!"
- 2 (5%)
Something else (specify)
- 3 (7.5%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Voting closed: 26 Jul 2020, 08:59


Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)  (Read 16859 times)

pwhodges

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #50 on: 14 Jul 2020, 15:04 »

Do you refuse to buy insurance as well? Because universal access medicine paid for out of taxes is working just like insurance.

Financially, but not organisationally.  You don't have to convince universal access that you deserve standard treatments.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #51 on: 14 Jul 2020, 18:35 »

Do we know how much a whole body costs?

I thought min 20k for basic model. Based on how much the robo hand cost to repair.

Sven definetely could afford it to pay it full up front but I think may would hate that.

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shanejayell

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #52 on: 14 Jul 2020, 18:50 »

Ouch.

One wonders if putting ex-cons in shitty bodies is also a strategy to keep them from getting ahead? The constant nickle and dime repairs eat away at her savings and functionally make it impossible to improve her life.

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #53 on: 14 Jul 2020, 18:52 »

Which would encourage May to return to crime, just to get the money to keep her body going.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #54 on: 14 Jul 2020, 18:54 »

If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.
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jwhouk

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #55 on: 14 Jul 2020, 18:56 »

Do we know how much a whole body costs?

I thought min 20k for basic model. Based on how much the robo hand cost to repair.

Sven definetely could afford it to pay it full up front but I think may would hate that.

Back about 2300 strips or so, Marigold nearly passed out when she was told the price of Momo's chassis - and it was on the high end of prices.

I believe at the time we posited it was the equivalent of maybe a new car (US$15-19,000), perhaps?
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #56 on: 14 Jul 2020, 19:09 »

Ouch.

One wonders if putting ex-cons in shitty bodies is also a strategy to keep them from getting ahead? The constant nickle and dime repairs eat away at her savings and functionally make it impossible to improve her life.
I believe there was already a comic where Roko addressed that such crappy chassises made a cycle of poverty inevitable and that it was impossible for the people in charge not to be aware of this, which is treated as additional punishment for convicts who have already served their time.

More nefariously I wonder if the people in charge of all this also do this to make it harder for anyone to start trouble. A former convict who's preoccupied with their deteriorating body doesn't have much opportunity to pick a fight with the system.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #57 on: 14 Jul 2020, 19:58 »

If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.

It's already been stated in today's comic that it's a safety issue, which is a bit more urgent than "massively inconvenient."
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Farideh

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #58 on: 14 Jul 2020, 20:08 »

I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #59 on: 14 Jul 2020, 20:15 »

Again, I say: Poor May.  :cry:
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #60 on: 14 Jul 2020, 20:48 »

Exactly. It's unfair to put "directly" in parentheses, because someone's going to interpret that as, if it's not a direct benefit, then it's an indirect benefit, which is not true. If I don't get any benefit from participating, don't make me participate.
Do you refuse to buy insurance as well? Because universal access medicine paid for out of taxes is working just like insurance.

It's often cheaper than insurance too. Because you're not paying for all the people whose job is to second-guess the doctor, and the doctor doesn't have to pad things out to make sure he's paid properly.
Don't forget the people whose sole job is to stall files.
Sounds like we're comparing frogs and newts.

If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #61 on: 14 Jul 2020, 21:29 »

Whatever did happen to Momo's previous chassis?  Couldn't that be a stopgap assuming May's willing to use it and Momo consents to it?

Today's comic...yeah.  Asking for help, even when you legit need it and are justified in asking, is fucking hard.  Swallowing your pride is one thing, but feeling like it makes you look weak or incapable is another, especially if you've never needed assistance or gotten by just fine before.  It's a huge blow to morale and sense of self, it makes you question your competency and self-worth.  I get why May doesn't want help or charity and wants to solve it on her own, because I was in her spot and came right up to the brink of ruin before being able to turn my situation around (without assistance, even when family was offering it).  Thing I learned though, you can't go through something like this alone.  Even if you're not taking direct help, you need a sphere of support, whether it's someone sending you job openings or offering you space to stay or even just being a sounding board so you can vent.

So yeah, asking for help sucks.  But sometimes it's the only option you have to get out of a hole or move forward.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #62 on: 14 Jul 2020, 21:37 »

The first chassis Momo wanted was $30K, and we did not get a dollar figure for the one she has now.

The $30K was for a top of the line luxury model. If we equate a $30K body to a $100K luxury car, then the equivalent of a new Honda Civic would be about $6K and we don't know about the secondhand market.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #63 on: 14 Jul 2020, 23:06 »

As for safety issue, it seems that her chassis is at a point where anything can fail randomly at any time. Sure, she might want to try and keep up with quick fixes, but just imagine what happens when her leg fails while crossing the street. Somehow, I don't think she has the reinforced core to survive an accident, like Roko did.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #64 on: 14 Jul 2020, 23:08 »

If it's really going to be a full 20k for a new body, May might actually be better off sticking with her old body (in terms of cost and not counting whatever she earns from the proposed donation drive). Because she's friends with Faye and Bubbles, her repairs are usually under 100 dollars each time, meaning it would take over 200 of those repairs to make the costs equal.

On the other hand, it would be massively inconvenient if your leg fell off every day, so I can see why she'd opt to spring for the more expensive option.

It's already been stated in today's comic that it's a safety issue, which is a bit more urgent than "massively inconvenient."

To be totally honest, I actually missed that line the first time through. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #65 on: 14 Jul 2020, 23:21 »

Ouch... May! This is horrible. This has gone beyond the 'wear and tear' and onto the category of 'degenerative illness'. The closest human comparison I can come up with is an aggressive cancer that attacks all the bony structures in the body. Now, bearing this in mind, as someone else has already pointed out, see how this has gone onto 'cruel and unusual punishment'?

Whatever did happen to Momo's previous chassis?

Didn't Momo say that she was going to destroy it to stop Pintsize from getting his end effectors on it?

One wonders if putting ex-cons in shitty bodies is also a strategy to keep them from getting ahead? The constant nickle and dime repairs eat away at her savings and functionally make it impossible to improve her life.

Or, maybe, to guarantee recidivism. If she's back in Robot Jail then the software developers have another AI agent to use to operate the augmented reality virtual PA system that they don't have to give pay and benefits! It makes economic sense and everyone knows that this benefits everyone in the end... except the slaves but no-one (in power) cares about them!
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Gyrre

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #66 on: 14 Jul 2020, 23:34 »

I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).

Depends on the options available and the companies involved. Some may get refurb'd and sold as new, others may have the electronics stripped and everything recycled. Some companies may just salvage the useful stuff and dump the rest.

EDIT: Fixing syntax and completing the thought.
« Last Edit: 14 Jul 2020, 23:40 by Gyrre »
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #67 on: 15 Jul 2020, 00:55 »

Not a happy fun time for May. It's hard to put yourself in the position of being in dire need of other people helping you.

I have a feeling that it would be a good idea to tell Sven, I honestly believe he considers May a friend and at the very least he could be able to drum some support so they can arrive to the goal faster beside some cash .
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #68 on: 15 Jul 2020, 01:10 »

I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).

Pintsize's old chassis is likely unusable: He had to be migrated to a new chassis due to physical damage, and it looks like that upgrade was by unplugging his head and plugging it into the new body. Winslow's old chassis was supposed to go to charity. Momo's old chassis might still be around, but Winslow wanted it destroyed so Pintsize would not get his hands on it.

All three of those chassis would be less than ideal for May's current job, as while she could still operate the register, she would be too small to effectively shoo teenagers and/or would be much easier to kidnap, seeing as it seems she frequently is pulling shifts alone at the convenience store.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #69 on: 15 Jul 2020, 01:28 »

All true, but those are just 3 examples that we know of. There are entire stores dedicated to new chassis for AIs, so what happens to the old ones after their owners have gotten an upgrade?

Interesting thought, though: Winslow's old chassis went to charity. Does that mean that there are not-for-profit organisations around that might provide May with a (new for her) body? Even if it was temporary, it could still be a viable short-term solution.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #70 on: 15 Jul 2020, 01:50 »

Remember that it seems to be only relatively recently that human-size bodies have become widespread amongst AIs, so the bodies available secondhand may be almost entirely the older AnthroPC styles - it's possible the market for humanoid chassis is being significantly driven by older AIs upgrading from those.

As Tyr pointed out, May really needs a humanoid chassis to keep her job, although to be fair it's not exactly a job she loves - but we've seen before that she has very limited options there. Losing her job because she's forced to downgrade to a small chassis might be an interesting place to take the plot (or at any rate an extra way to beat us over the head with the idea that May's situation is unfair); I could easily see her having to accept a small chassis until she saves up enough money for a larger one, but then being unable to earn money, and nobody in authority being willing to accept any responsibility for the situation or to do anything about it.

Of course we also know that Jeph doesn't like being really mean to his characters and there are signs that he is looking to take it in a happier direction, so it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out. Personally, after reading today's strip I noticed the donation link as I was heading to the forum, and a part of me wanted to donate money so that May could have a better body. I don't think it quite works like that though :D

-- Edit

Hey, I was just browsing randomly and it turns out the comic has already explored a different solution...
« Last Edit: 15 Jul 2020, 02:03 by Scarlet Manuka »
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #71 on: 15 Jul 2020, 01:56 »

Here's some disjointed thoughts that hopefully make sense.

I have a problem with the phrase "acting out of character". It's not that it's not useful - a badly written character can do something that seems stupid within the context of the character's personality. But I think this criticism is used too often - in real life, people don't act the same way, all the time. In stressful or unusual situations, people change their behaviour.

It can be used to great effect in fiction. If someone acts drastically "out of character", it shows they are strongly affected by whatever is happening (this actually has its own page on TV Tropes, which I will not link because I don't want to steal hours off the time of anyone who clicks the link ;) ).

Today's strip does this pretty damn well. Being this helpless and scared and acting like it is not something typical for May. In other circumstances, she's more likely to cover up her fear or uncertainty with more swearing. Which is why it hits harder that she can't or won't in this particular case.

Guess it has to do with the sense of disconnect of not being able to use her normal voice.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #72 on: 15 Jul 2020, 02:18 »

On the subject of May getting a second-hand chassis from somewhere, I kind of want to give Roko the benefit of the doubt that she didn't overlook that possibility. If there's such a thing as second-hand chasses which are available for convicts it's probably an obscure organization which is hard to find, if it exists at all.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #73 on: 15 Jul 2020, 02:30 »

I just need to add at this point that May has never more desperately needed a hug before today. The only other time she's been this vulnerable was when she asked Dale to let her watch the stars with him at the end of her time as his AR virtual assistant.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #74 on: 15 Jul 2020, 02:30 »

i don't know if i can handle Sad May Face. that last panel is the hardest the comic has ever tugged my heartstrings.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #75 on: 15 Jul 2020, 06:33 »

I wonder if there's a market for 2nd hand chassis? From the comics, we know that Pintsize, Momo, and Winslow have gotten new bodies. What happened to their old ones?

(Side note: I'm imagining May in Momo's old chassis. It's both hilarious and frightening).

Pintsize's old chassis is likely unusable: He had to be migrated to a new chassis due to physical damage, and it looks like that upgrade was by unplugging his head and plugging it into the new body. Winslow's old chassis was supposed to go to charity. Momo's old chassis might still be around, but Winslow wanted it destroyed so Pintsize would not get his hands on it.

All three of those chassis would be less than ideal for May's current job, as while she could still operate the register, she would be too small to effectively shoo teenagers and/or would be much easier to kidnap, seeing as it seems she frequently is pulling shifts alone at the convenience store.

Not to mention the challenge restocking the shelves would be.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #76 on: 15 Jul 2020, 06:43 »

There could be some kind of 2nd hand chassis market, but non-broken humanoid ones could still be too expensive for May. I would assume her current chassis wasn't new when she got it.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #77 on: 15 Jul 2020, 08:58 »

I seem to recall Momo offering May her old chassis, and May's reply was along the lines of OH HELL NO.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #78 on: 15 Jul 2020, 09:18 »

Yup! I scrubbed through the archives looking for it. The exact conversation was:

MOMO
You could borrow my old chassis until-
 
MAY
No offense, but I'd rather wear this bag forever than be a chibi animé toy-robot.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #79 on: 15 Jul 2020, 09:22 »

I was looking at poor May's situation through my rose-coloured glasses just now...  :wink:

What if there is a used AI chassis market, so that a robot with a totally worn-out body (like May) could maybe get a better body without going the expensive route of a brand-new one? That way, May could unbend her pride enough to accept financial help (for instance, from Sven - who could probably be convinced to help, out of gratitude for services rendered - nudge, nudge, wink, wink...), as long as she could pay it back at a reduced rate. And on top of that, she has friends who just happen to run a robot repair facility, who could maybe also be convinced to offer reasonable rates for regular maintenance... (Mind you, I'm still looking through my rose-coloured specs...  :roll:)

I was also imagining Faye, exercising her artistic and metal-working flair by getting into the robot body design field...
Of course, being Faye, the resulting creation would probably resemble either a Transformer or a Gundam  :-D
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #80 on: 15 Jul 2020, 10:19 »

I recall that at least one model of gundam could also transform into a jet fighter so I reckon May’d be all over that. Even if the missiles were Nerf and the chaingun airsoft.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #81 on: 15 Jul 2020, 10:29 »

Have you folks thought through the implications of how May comes to have her current chassis?  My impression is that she was not embodied in the job which led to the embezzlement, and certainly not embodied in robot gaol. The current chassis doesn't seem to be rented, it appears to have been a gift from the Dept of corrections. So if they have a requirement to supply a chassis to every ex con who requests one, and (as is I submit canon) a very limited budget, then its almost inevitable that they will supply the ex cons with the cheapest items available on the secondhand market, and May seems to have got a particular lemon.
But again, how do AIs in general get chassis? Bubbles' chassis seems to have been a 'gift'/result of military service,  Roko we don't know. But a new AI comes out of the creche, may want a mobile chassis, may not. How are they paid for? Are there parents who pay as human parents effectivelypay for their offspring's chassis? Is there a kind of bond servitude like McCaffreys "Ship who... series"?
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #82 on: 15 Jul 2020, 10:41 »

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #83 on: 15 Jul 2020, 11:44 »

Marigold bought Momo's current chassis and gave it to her as a gift, same for Hannelore and Winslow. May talks about buying herself a better chassis, and we know there are shops selling inert chassis that can be easily bought if you have enough money.

My personal theory (though I've given it all of 5 minutes of thought) is that a newly-created AI without a specific task stays in a server rack somewhere, working until it can afford to buy a mobile chassis if it wants one. Maybe there are some that have no desire to be mobile, but they could still buy beefier hardware/better data connections. Special-purpose AIs, like Bubbles, are put straight into their matching chassis.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #84 on: 15 Jul 2020, 13:15 »

My headcanon for Bubbles still having her military issue chassis is that, for security reasons, she can’t leave and also no other AI can inhabit it, because who wants one of your soldiers to get captured, literally mind wiped, and replaced with an externally identical enemy soldier to be sent back as an infiltrator?
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Farideh

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #85 on: 15 Jul 2020, 14:47 »

Yup! I scrubbed through the archives looking for it. The exact conversation was:

MOMO
You could borrow my old chassis until-
 
MAY
No offense, but I'd rather wear this bag forever than be a chibi animé toy-robot.


Momo isn't completely helpless, though
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RevEddie

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #86 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:08 »

After years of lurking, I had to sign in for this:

No one here really found it odd that Roko isn't disturbed by the sight of May's open throat?
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #87 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:26 »

Sure.  It's not *her* throat that's open.

I've known people who are nurses and can deal with just about anything they see in the emergency room... unless something happens to them (or their kid).
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #88 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:31 »

Roko's main issue was that she was extremely integrated with her own body. It freaked her out to see her own foot removed because that presumably felt like a violation of her person (robot?).

Also, she's witnessed Faye and Bubbles peeling May's face off before, so I doubt a voice box transfer would faze her too much.
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Zebediah

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #89 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:32 »

Comic’s up.

Winslow is in big trouble.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #90 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:38 »

Huh, maybe that's why her parents got together... her father needed someone to help him stay on track and her mother saw potential in his work.

Not the healthiest of motivations for an actual relationship but it could be the start of something more.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #91 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:46 »

Beatrice steered Hannerdad straight into a marriage...
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #92 on: 15 Jul 2020, 18:46 »

And, in that moment, Winslow knew what it was to see death.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #93 on: 15 Jul 2020, 19:00 »

So there's only a 1/20 chance of this going through. Wheee.

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #94 on: 15 Jul 2020, 19:03 »

Ooooh, Winslow poked the bear  :-D
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Gnabberwocky

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #95 on: 15 Jul 2020, 20:57 »

Do you think Tilly and Station are going to be able to stay on Hannerdad's case long enough to follow through with the legislation, or will it fizzle?

I have the feeling it's going to go quiet for a bit, then pop up again in a few hundred strips with some minor law change. This kind of legislation change doesn't seem like something you get done in one go.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #96 on: 15 Jul 2020, 21:08 »

Yikes!

Okay, that gave me the biggest belly laugh I've had reading QC in some time.

Roko's main issue was that she was extremely integrated with her own body. It freaked her out to see her own foot removed because that presumably felt like a violation of her person (robot?).

Also, she's witnessed Faye and Bubbles peeling May's face off before, so I doubt a voice box transfer would faze her too much.

She was freaked out just by the sight of a dislocated finger. I'm pretty sure there was another comic where Faye and Bubbles were operating and Roko had her back turned, but I don't have the archive-fu to locate it right now.

I have the feeling it's going to go quiet for a bit, then pop up again in a few hundred strips with some minor law change. This kind of legislation change doesn't seem like something you get done in one go.

Given how long we've been waiting on the story arc of Roko trying to accomplish something arguably much much simpler, I'm not sure Jeph will get done with this storyline in his lifetime. Unless he pulls another Yay ex Machina.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #97 on: 15 Jul 2020, 21:12 »

After years of lurking, I had to sign in for this:

No one here really found it odd that Roko isn't disturbed by the sight of May's open throat?


She might've gotten her freak-out out of the way earlier.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #98 on: 15 Jul 2020, 21:16 »

Welcome RevEddie!

Do you think Tilly and Station are going to be able to stay on Hannerdad's case long enough to follow through with the legislation, or will it fizzle?

Tilly is persistent to a fault.
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Re: WCDT strips 4306-4310 (13-17 July 2020)
« Reply #99 on: 15 Jul 2020, 22:03 »

Quote
She was freaked out just by the sight of a dislocated finger.

True, although this was before the Crushbot incident (as were all other instances of her being disgusted by robotic body parts, I think). Could her level of squeamishness towards other AIs' bodies have gone down now that she's less integrated with her own?

Edit: grammar
« Last Edit: 16 Jul 2020, 13:08 by Gnabberwocky »
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