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Author Topic: AI wonderings and discussion  (Read 16619 times)

Gnabberwocky

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #50 on: 16 Dec 2020, 15:02 »

Short version; humans own the chassis of a given companion AI
Is that true? We know AIs are legally allowed to have possessions and money, so it's perfectly reasonable that they own their chassis. Often, a human buying a body for their companion AI is a gift, implying that ownership goes to the AI. It seems like it could cause many problems if humans could just rip their friends out of their bodies and sell them for scrap.

That said, we saw PT-410x and a few other early AnthroPCs get modded. But that was pre-Robot Civil Rights Act and pre-singularity, though, and my guess is it would be illegal to do that now.
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Wingy

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #51 on: 17 Dec 2020, 10:14 »

Unless they approved the mod beforehand.  But even if they didn't, presumably the parts are available on fleabay or somewhere to restore them to factory-delivered state in most cases.

Going back to Station - who apparently gets a percentage of stock - why would they want to get away from the money factory?  But assuming they do, I would envision a facility for dual processing and learn from Station what it takes in a few, and then Stations processor could unplug and be installed in a body to return to Earth.
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #52 on: 22 Dec 2020, 00:33 »

I have no doubt that this has probably been discussed elsewhere before (and if so, I hope someone will point me to it), but Brun's recent interactions with Millefeuille have had me wondering...do sophisticated humanoid AIs like Millie take offence at being called "robots"? Is it like the "N" word to them? And is she maybe indulging Brun's use of the term as a function of her apparent ASD? Seems to me it would be akin to calling humans "apes"...
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #53 on: 22 Dec 2020, 02:59 »

Various AIs have called themselves robots at points throughout the series.  And considering that Faye and Bubbles run a shop called “Union Robotics”, it is highly unlikely that the term is a slur.
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #54 on: 22 Dec 2020, 09:19 »

There was a discussion here in 2018.  It seems like in the QC universe (or the people that we see anyway), the word "robot" has taken on a new meaning and most people using the word just use that new meaning without regard to its origin.  Kind of like how the word "atom" originally meant an indivisible particle, but when chemists realized that what they'd been calling atoms were actually divisible, they didn't pick a new word but rather added a new definition for "atom".*  Early AI researchers probably were used to using the term "robot" and when its original meaning no longer really applied, the word was such a habit that a new meaning developed.

However, the original meaning of "robot" is still around in QC as shown in comic 2754.  May uses the term for herself and other AIs in other comics, so I think it's fair to say she doesn't view the word as inherently offensive, but she can use either definition.

Here are some samples uses of the word "robot" that I found when browsing through recent comics:

May: "free socialized robot titties..." (4402), "Robots with buttholes" (4349)
Sam: "How come a robot needs underwear" (4413)
Rene: "I wonder what getting texted feels like for robots." (4357)
Beepatrice: "Robot College" (4352), "You're a robot." (4221), "a wealthy old human who loved robots" (4209)
Jeremy: "robot martial arts" (4316)
Millefeuille: "robot hand" (4218) -- but this was about Clinton's hand, so that's more of the older meaning
Roko: "Giant robot bear" (4210), "Grandpa Robots" (4200)
Dora: "robot lady from last night" (4170)
Tai: "tall robot lady" (4159)


* This is a bad analogy since atoms don't get to decide for themselves what word should describe them, but I'm bad at coming up with analogies so it's the best I could think of.
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Gnabberwocky

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #55 on: 22 Dec 2020, 15:00 »

From the QC cast page:

"Pretty much everybody else in the comic is an artificial intelligence of some kind! It's cool if you call them robots, they use the terms pretty much interchangeably."
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Morituri

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #56 on: 24 Dec 2020, 20:59 »

To me there's something like an implication of different theories of identity there.

"Robot" is a physical object - chassis, processor, etc.  If someone identifies with the word I think they strongly identify with their body, probably to the extent of embracing something like the continuity theory of identity.  Changing chassis would be a major event for them, one they want to do as few times as possible, because they feel that the being inhabiting a new chassis, despite having their memories etc, is a different person.  The in-comic example would be Roko - so strongly identified with her original chassis that she has dissociative episodes in a new one.

Absolute continuity identity would mean being traumatized by downtime / interruption of process or damage / change of substrate. 

"AI" on the other hand is the software - disembodied, capable of running on different chassis or architectures or in different places, etc.  Identifying with the word makes me think they embrace the pattern theory of identity.  According to pattern theory, anyplace the pattern manifests they think of as self - so they don't have a problem transferring their entire personality halfway round the world to a different chassis or into a chassis with a different shape or capabilities or whatever - but they are likely not to fully integrate with their chassis to the degree that robots do.  More likely to note, eg, that the hand is registering pain rather than yell "OW!" or less likely to pick up the finest details of coordination and balance.  Because after all, their chassis is just what they're wearing at the moment, why expend the 95% of the work required to get that last 1% of integration?  The in-comic example is May, desperate to get the hell OUT of her failing prison-issue chassis and having no identity problems at all when she gets her wish.

Absolute pattern theory of identity is shown by people who consider uploading their minds into some digital format by a process that destroys the original brain, having a new body grown later, and think of that new body, with this recorded pattern imprinted upon its vat-grown brain, as themselves.
« Last Edit: 24 Dec 2020, 21:05 by Morituri »
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #57 on: 24 Dec 2020, 23:05 »

Do the fighting ring participants identify as AI?
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Gnabberwocky

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #58 on: 25 Dec 2020, 14:42 »

Do the fighting ring participants identify as AI?

Unlikely; it was always referred to as the "robot fighting ring." I don't think I ever heard a fighter there self-describe as an AI.
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Dock Braun

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #59 on: 25 Dec 2020, 23:02 »

I think I recall that their substrate (or whatever the chip that holds their personality is called) is specially made to withstand great physical force, to be easily replaced into a new body. This seems more like it would be AI, happening to be in robot bodies, rather than robots, who happen to be AI. In a certain sense, the robots are fighting, but the AI are often good friends. They're often in good spirits, despite their body being in a terrible condition. (cont.)
« Last Edit: 25 Dec 2020, 23:13 by Dock Braun »
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #60 on: 31 Dec 2020, 19:35 »

Jeph said once that AIs are the legal owners of their bodies, but people like the former nuclear missile sub must be exceptions.
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Wingy

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #61 on: 01 Jan 2021, 14:02 »

Jeph said once that AIs are the legal owners of their bodies, but people like the former nuclear missile sub must be exceptions.
When you're in the military, the military owns your little pink (or whatever color) body.  Why would it be different for an AI?
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #62 on: 01 Jan 2021, 20:01 »

Again, I think it's a matter of choice for the AIs. Those who choose to upload into hardware such as nuclear subs forgo their rights to body ownership, while those who go for smaller personal hardware have full bodily rights if they own said hardware.
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #63 on: 02 Jan 2021, 14:57 »

Sorry, I was less than clear. 

Suppose May, in her old chassis, volunteered for the Air Force.  She gets assigned to work on the flight line in her present form.  The military would then have the responsibility to fix her old chassis, or assign her a new one.  A new one might be more job related, or it might just be one that doesn't need to be fixed as often.  Either way, it's the Air Forces equipment until May's discharged.  Whether May would keep her current form at discharge is a different decision - Bubbles kept hers and perhaps made the decision to keep it instead of being placed in a civilian model.  If the chassis May changed into is still necessary Air Force equipment, May might have had to transfer back to a civilian body, perhaps even her old chassis from the Dept of Corrections.  That's how I think this would work in Jeph's universe; it's not strictly a matter of the AIs choice; it's the military's choice based on current needs.

I'm sure May would have wanted to join the military and picked an assignment as a battle drone, if such a pick was guaranteed.  My understanding is today in the US is you swear in before you know your assignment in almost all cases, so you seldom know what you're going to be doing.  In the rare cases for people with demonstrated specialty skills (MDs, etc.), they may have a guaranteed position waiting in a certain field, but even this is not guaranteed in every case.  This is clearly not the situation May was in, given her discussion with Momo about future jobs.  Plus, I doubt May has the mentality for military service.
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Penquin47

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #64 on: 10 Jan 2021, 18:21 »

Generally speaking, if you're an MD, the armed forces knows you have so many more choices that they're not going to screw you over.  If you sign up for the armed forces, they're not going to waste your time or skills by putting you in a job that could be done by any 18-20 year old fresh out of high school.

Enough of the armed forces' doctors are home grown (they joined up young and were identified as medical school candidates) that they have their own medical school.  My mom is a proud graduate of it.  Others were ROTC scholarship students in college who continued those scholarships through a civilian medical school (as many were encouraging Mom to do but she was determined that she was NOT going to be a doctor, she wanted to be a research scientist and did that to pay back her ROTC scholarship before being told "go to medical school or get out" and deciding that getting out, as a research scientist with two kids under 3 in the middle of a recession, was not a good option).

The people coming out of their ROTC scholarships are usually put into work in their fields, if possible, because the armed forces doesn't see the sense in paying for you to get the training and then not using it, especially in a field like computer science where four years later your training might be out of date if you're not keeping up.

It's the kids coming straight out of high school or going in semi-voluntarily (I don't know if it's still a thing, but for a long time kids who messed up in not exactly trivial ways but not, like, murder, could be given the option of joining the military instead of serving jail time) who get the "you go where we put you and if you don't like it tough" treatment.  If a recruiter tells you otherwise - always remember, recruiters LIE.
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Gnabberwocky

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #65 on: 30 Jan 2021, 14:16 »

I know this comes as a huge shock to everyone, but I have more questions.

So we know free body legislation is currently being worked on for AIs. Wouldn't this cause massive unrest if used in conjunction with socialized health care for humans, though? Either you make robot repairs a right as well, in which case Union Robotics and similar places would likely be threatened, or you don't make them a right, in which case AIs aren't getting the same treatment as humans, because they'd have to pay just to keep themselves working, aside from their regular rent and electrical bills.

Second question that I just thought of: aside from electricity and maintenance, do you think embodied robots have any other recurring costs? Like, do they have to replace their joint lubricant every so often, or get new batteries, or something like that?
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #66 on: 30 Jan 2021, 14:59 »

I’m sure those would come under the heading of “maintenance”. But since they don’t grow their hair out naturally, going to a shop like UR, and *then* getting it styled would be an extra expense.  And as far as I can see from QC-tech, *nothing* in a robot body self-repairs, so those expenses are going to be fairly frequent.  What would be a minor sprain for a human would, for an AI require a repair, rather than simply wrapping it up and keeping the weight off until the body repairs itself.  Look at what happened to Millie: She had to get one surgery to make her leg usable, and then another to replace it with a new part.  For most breaks, human doctors just traction the thing and then put a cast on it.  Our bodies do the rest.  Or just imagine what it’d be like for a homeless AI.  It’s not as easy to dumpster-dive for electricity, especially the amount that a being that size would need.
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #67 on: 30 Jan 2021, 19:04 »

AI have more options than humans, though. If they decide that keeping their chassis in working order is becoming too expensive, they can decide to (maybe temporarily) move to a non-embodied existence. Millie mentioned that most of the AIs in her creche never chose a chassis, instead they just run as software constructs.


Also, I wonder if places that sells chassis offer maintenance contracts. "Buy one body, get 5 years of service". Just for the basic stuff, like lubrication, and replacement of parts due to regular wear and tear.
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Gyrre

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #68 on: 31 Jan 2021, 06:36 »

AI have more options than humans, though. If they decide that keeping their chassis in working order is becoming too expensive, they can decide to (maybe temporarily) move to a non-embodied existence. Millie mentioned that most of the AIs in her creche never chose a chassis, instead they just run as software constructs.


Also, I wonder if places that sells chassis offer maintenance contracts. "Buy one body, get 5 years of service". Just for the basic stuff, like lubrication, and replacement of parts due to regular wear and tear.

I would hope so. It does make sense.
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Gnabberwocky

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #69 on: 31 Jan 2021, 15:09 »

AI have more options than humans, though. If they decide that keeping their chassis in working order is becoming too expensive, they can decide to (maybe temporarily) move to a non-embodied existence.

Doesn't that completely contradict the point of rightful embodiment? It's still restricting embodiment to AIs who can afford it, just in a different way.
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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #70 on: 31 Jan 2021, 21:38 »

I wonder if the catalytic combustion used in Robeetle (minute 4:02) could be safely used in larger QC AI? Being that the 'muscles' are platinum coated wires, I'm guessing it's going to be limited in just how big it could be.

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Re: AI wonderings and discussion
« Reply #71 on: 06 Apr 2021, 21:12 »

Came across an interesting experiment involving self-assembling wires.

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