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Poll

Are May's new eyebrows too big?

yes
no
maybe?
They're *chef's kiss* perfect.
No, they need to big bigger.
They're secretly just nori sheets painted blue and glued on.
Sven, drink more spathe ham.

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Author Topic: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)  (Read 3534 times)

Wingy

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #50 on: 13 Jan 2021, 05:50 »

Or in Charon's obol (money for the ferryman).
Don't pay the ferry man!  ;-)
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #51 on: 13 Jan 2021, 06:15 »

Wonder if they could get funding for an apprenticeship program for reformed robots.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #52 on: 13 Jan 2021, 06:23 »

Wonder if they could get funding for an apprenticeship program for reformed robots.

Yes, if they and May all complete applications and assessments that are thiiis high (Points at Freedom Tower, NY). The actual process would take a few years to complete too.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #53 on: 13 Jan 2021, 06:59 »

Under her hardened shell, Faye has a golden heart.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #54 on: 13 Jan 2021, 07:09 »

I would think that Marten etc etc are helping make sure Faye isn't JUST eating beans & rice...

I would also suspect Mr Noodle is in there too.

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #55 on: 13 Jan 2021, 08:52 »

If you cut out the beans, your farts will lose their ... impact.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #56 on: 13 Jan 2021, 09:52 »

Under her hardened shell, Faye has a golden heart.
She also appears to be learning that it's usually better to be nice and think of others carefully than to be a caustic, self-centered PITA.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #57 on: 13 Jan 2021, 18:13 »

Comic's up.

Clinton... What? Did you forget about the first part of the evening or something? I'm hoping that Elliot will set the record straight with him, but I doubt it.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #58 on: 13 Jan 2021, 18:40 »

Elliot just needs to tell him what's up. Yes, it will be awkward, but you know Clinton's not going to argue it, and it would be seriously beneficial to both of them.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #59 on: 13 Jan 2021, 18:50 »

That would be beneficial, yes. However, Elliot being Elliot...
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #60 on: 13 Jan 2021, 18:51 »

What a bunch of dorks.  :-D

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #61 on: 13 Jan 2021, 18:57 »

I am Clinton's Complete Lack of Empathy.

I'd like to think that Clinton would learn from the experience if Elliot spelled out what he did wrong, but I'm not really comprehending how Clinton is missing the obvious in the first place.

Spelling it out would be good for Elliot, too, since Elliot needs to learn some assertiveness.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #62 on: 13 Jan 2021, 20:57 »

Oi vey, Clinton.

Under her hardened shell, Faye has a golden heart.
She also appears to be learning that it's usually better to be nice and think of others carefully than to be a caustic, self-centered PITA.

What's unlevened Greek flatbread got to do with Faye?   :clairedoge:
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #63 on: 13 Jan 2021, 21:17 »

Oh Dear...  :facepalm:

I can understand this, actually: I suspect that Clinton is someone who has to concentrate to exercise awareness of other people's feelings - and what goes first when you get drunk?  Besides the ability to control one's bladder, that is  :-D 

Well, he's learning , at least - and I reckon someone like Elliot has the patience to deal with the on-going learning process.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #64 on: 13 Jan 2021, 23:20 »

I think that Elliot is beginning to realise that he has had a lucky escape on this one. Clinton isn't necessarily a bad guy but his social awareness and his awareness of others' feelings is pretty weak. Given how sensitive Elliot is to these sort of things, that is probably not a very good combination.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #65 on: 14 Jan 2021, 00:50 »

Oh nooo, that definitely got worse in the second half.. Hope Clinton get's his head outside of his ass.
Then there's to hoping that Elliot is going to tell him, but yeah.. he's Elliot. Communication problems are always hard to look at.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #66 on: 14 Jan 2021, 02:59 »

[Coldplay voice]
When you try your best but you don't succeed

Seriously though, I feel like people are going to dump on Clinton a lot and like, yes, fair, he's messing up a lot. But his heart's two steps ahead of his head here. He's going to have to deal with consequences he's doing his best to avoid. He's probably started from the worst place of a cast that includes Marigold in it.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #67 on: 14 Jan 2021, 05:38 »

Under her hardened shell, Faye has a golden heart.
She also appears to be learning that it's usually better to be nice and think of others carefully than to be a caustic, self-centered PITA.
What's unlevened Greek flatbread got to do with Faye?   :clairedoge:
Ooops!  Misplaced referent, mea culpa.  I was thinking about May, not Faye.  Bubbles still needs to beat Faye's brains in on a couple points.  May seems to be figuring it out.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #68 on: 14 Jan 2021, 08:26 »

The problem in this situation, in my opinion, isn't a lack of empathy, it is a fundamentally different viewpoint. Clinton doesn't see what upset Elliot because it is not a thing that would upset him, nor is it a thing he would think about being potentially upsetting, it is just too outside his reference frame. And without Elliot telling him what upset him, there is no way for Clinton to know. I honestly think that if Elliot would just tell him and explain why it was upsetting, Clinton would understand and apologise, but until Elliot learns to communicate his feelings instead of just expecting other people to read his mind, this kind of thing will keep happening.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #69 on: 14 Jan 2021, 11:08 »

I love that no one's hating on Clinton at this point.

The problem in this situation, in my opinion, isn't a lack of empathy, it is a fundamentally different viewpoint...

So the thing is, that's what a lack of empathy is, the inability to see and analyze the situation from another's viewpoint. I know the phrase "lack of empathy" gets thrown around a lot with terrible connotations, but in reality empathy is an ability that widely varies between people. Lacking empathy doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, though it can very easily contribute to making you a bad person if you never even try to understand another person's point of view. Clinton has made giant strides in developing his sense of empathy, but he is definitely not a natural empath. You're completely correct that the best solution for this is for Elliot to be open and honest, which is basically his kryptonite.

Honestly, I love the Clinton/Elliot dynamic if only because it's so good for each of their character growth. Clinton gets help becoming more empathetic while Elliot gets to learn that expressing his feelings can be good with the right person. Specifically with a person who is willing to listen and do their best to understand. Don't know how long this fledgling relationship will last, but if they each get that little something out of it, it'll be great!
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #70 on: 14 Jan 2021, 11:17 »

How can he be expected to analyse the situation from a perspective he isn't even aware exists? I don't think be unaware is the same as being unempathetic. Like I said, if he was made aware of how Elliot interpreted the situation, he would totally be able to empathise. But no one, no matter how empathic they are can imagine every possible human response to every possible stimuli.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #71 on: 14 Jan 2021, 11:23 »

Wonder if they could get funding for an apprenticeship program for reformed robots.

Welcome, new person with a good idea!
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #72 on: 14 Jan 2021, 11:26 »

How can he be expected to analyse the situation from a perspective he isn't even aware exists?

I think Christophelous's point is that it requires empathy to know the perspective exists. To us, it was evident early that Elliot did not have a positive reaction, but Clinton just missed it. This was an honest mistake, and he deserves no hate for it, but an increased sense of empathy probably would have allowed him to notice that perspective, and thus react more effectively to it.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #73 on: 14 Jan 2021, 11:47 »

And, like I said, no matter how empathic you are you can't be aware of every possible perspective. Empathy is the ability imagine how another person feels when made aware of it, it doesn't give you the ability to imagine all possibilities.

I agree that he missed the nonverbal cues at the time that Elliot was upset, partially due to being intoxicated and partially because Elliot was being actively evasive about his feelings. But that is a different issue entirely.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #74 on: 14 Jan 2021, 12:01 »

Okay, I can agree with all that.

That said, your definition of empathy doesn't cover Clinton missing the social cues. What would your term for the ability to do that consistently be? I feel like it extends beyond awareness, because it does require some amount of conscious thought to decide what those cues mean.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #75 on: 14 Jan 2021, 12:21 »

I think the ability to read cues is wholly separate from empathy. Plenty of psychopaths are very good at reading people and picking up nonverbal communication, but one could hardly call them empathetic. And plenty of people have difficulty understanding or noticing social cues while still having a lot of empathy for others.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #76 on: 14 Jan 2021, 12:47 »

It sounds to me like the conversation here is about the distinction between capacity and exercize. To say that Clinton lacks empathy, it implies that he lacks the capacity to empathize with Elliot. And that just isn't true. He may be failing to demonstrate empathy for Elliot, but that's because Elliot isn't communicating with him.

It's also important to remember that we have a perspective that Clinton doesn't. Just because we see things doesn't mean Clinton does or that he should have been expected to.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #77 on: 14 Jan 2021, 12:57 »

That is true. It's easy to forget that we are basically omniscient when we are reading the comic (and even then we get into plenty of discussions about what something 'means').


It's the same for watching movies/series/reading books as well. Many is the time that I've yelled 'just talk to each other!' at the TV screen  ;D
« Last Edit: 15 Jan 2021, 12:48 by Farideh »
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #78 on: 14 Jan 2021, 13:01 »

I think the ability to read cues is wholly separate from empathy. Plenty of psychopaths are very good at reading people and picking up nonverbal communication, but one could hardly call them empathetic. And plenty of people have difficulty understanding or noticing social cues while still having a lot of empathy for others.

I can concede that. Closest terminology I could find was "social cognition". Helps me make sense of myself, too. I'm super empathetic, to the point that watching awkward movies and shows makes me physically uncomfortable, but I miss a lot of social cues. But I still think that both empathy and social cognition are difficult skills for Clinton, and that his interactions with Elliot are primed to help continue his progress with these skills.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #79 on: 14 Jan 2021, 17:52 »

On top of everything else Clinton was also drunk.

And he's definitely not the heightened-inhibitors type of drunk.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #80 on: 14 Jan 2021, 18:07 »

Comic's up.

Well done Elliot! Clinton: this is the part where you apologize.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #81 on: 14 Jan 2021, 19:15 »

Can we all take a quick moment to appreciate how much character progression this is for Elliot?

Ok, thanks, you may proceed.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #82 on: 14 Jan 2021, 19:16 »

So this might be me just being stupid, but I went back and checked the pages when Clinton asked Brun about to whom else she might be attracted to (page 4382) and he specifically asks "...are there any guys you are attracted to right now?", in other words he doesn't mention Elliot in any way.  When he informs Elliot about this (page 4384), he also specifically says that he asked and she replied "...she's not 'tracted to any dudes right now!", once again, not mentioning Elliot in the statement.  So Clinton didn't put Elliot out in any way as far as I can tell, instead he asked a generic question, and informed Elliot about the answer he received to said generic question without Brun having any knowledge that he could have been asking for Elliot.  I'm trying to figure out how that is making Elliot upset and drawing a blank, but again, I could just be stupid.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #83 on: 14 Jan 2021, 19:28 »

So this might be me just being stupid, but I went back and checked the pages when Clinton asked Brun about to whom else she might be attracted to (page 4382) and he specifically asks "...are there any guys you are attracted to right now?", in other words he doesn't mention Elliot in any way.  When he informs Elliot about this (page 4384), he also specifically says that he asked and she replied "...she's not 'tracted to any dudes right now!", once again, not mentioning Elliot in the statement.  So Clinton didn't put Elliot out in any way as far as I can tell, instead he asked a generic question, and informed Elliot about the answer he received to said generic question without Brun having any knowledge that he could have been asking for Elliot.  I'm trying to figure out how that is making Elliot upset and drawing a blank, but again, I could just be stupid.

I think Elliot didn't want to know whether or not Brun was attracted to him. (Take that with a grain of salt, though, because I don't really understand why he didn't want to know, so much that he was upset/offended[?] when someone told him. This whole storyline has been a little confusing for me, especially because most forum-goers seem to empathize/align with Elliot's view more than Clinton's in this situation.)
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #84 on: 14 Jan 2021, 19:29 »

Ah, Renee, still sorta a jerk at times.

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #85 on: 14 Jan 2021, 19:36 »

I forgot who that guy in panel 5 is.

Also, going back to Sam, my favorite Sam moment was when she walked it to Chad, when he was a dick to her about buying the Blue Yeti mic.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #86 on: 14 Jan 2021, 20:08 »

Love the awkwardness that is three not-quite-bystanders to Elliot's character progression of talking about FEELINGS!!

I forgot who that guy in panel 5 is.


That is Hot Dan, who was Sh**ty Dan, Renee's new friend with benefits or maybe boyfriend

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #87 on: 14 Jan 2021, 23:15 »

To me, the last panel is the best in this strip. Basically, Renee telling Brun that she want to be in the middle of this emotional moment, either because she'll make it worse or because she really, really doesn't want to become a bit player in a romcom. In response, Dan essentially whines: "But I'm hungry!"

Clinton has been inducted into one of Jeph's key themes in the entire history of this strip, in my opinion at least. You might think you are helping but do ask the person you're trying to help first. You might not be helping after all!
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #88 on: 14 Jan 2021, 23:44 »

Renee: "I'm not going into that Swamp of Sorrows."
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #89 on: 14 Jan 2021, 23:54 »

Uggggggggghhhhhhhh [angrily]GOO~GLE!!!

Couldn't find a clip on YT or DailyMotion, so here's the wiki entry explaining the nori eyebrows poll option.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #90 on: 14 Jan 2021, 23:57 »

So this might be me just being stupid, but I went back and checked the pages when Clinton asked Brun about to whom else she might be attracted to (page 4382) and he specifically asks "...are there any guys you are attracted to right now?", in other words he doesn't mention Elliot in any way.  When he informs Elliot about this (page 4384), he also specifically says that he asked and she replied "...she's not 'tracted to any dudes right now!", once again, not mentioning Elliot in the statement.  So Clinton didn't put Elliot out in any way as far as I can tell, instead he asked a generic question, and informed Elliot about the answer he received to said generic question without Brun having any knowledge that he could have been asking for Elliot.  I'm trying to figure out how that is making Elliot upset and drawing a blank, but again, I could just be stupid.


Have a read through this WCDT thread, it was discussed into the ground when the comics were published.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #91 on: 15 Jan 2021, 02:01 »

Much respect for Dan, his logic there is actually really good as neither knows him except possibly by reputation so he could go in there, get the croissants, then leave quickly so the ladies don't get dragged into a potentially explosive and likely horrific cringe-worthy levels of dancing around a foursome of crushes

dangit, now I want croissants! gotta find a cheap bakery that sells them :(
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #92 on: 15 Jan 2021, 05:49 »

dangit, now I want croissants!

To paraphrase Bruce Banner: that's my secret. I *always* want croissants.
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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #93 on: 15 Jan 2021, 14:17 »

Ah, Renee, still sorta a jerk at times.

How is she being a jerk? She’s not interrupting them and resisting going into Mom mode by not getting sucked into their bog of feelings. Plus she’s also low key protecting Brun from getting sucked in as well.
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Is it cold in here?

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #94 on: 16 Jan 2021, 16:58 »

Welcome, new people!
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"Non-compliance is a social skill"

Gus_Smedstad

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Re: WCDT 4436-4440 (the 11th through 15th of January, 2021)
« Reply #95 on: 17 Jan 2021, 12:31 »

I think Elliot did kind of a half-assed job of explaining the problem. No mention of "when you asked Brun about how she felt about you, it made me feel like you weren't interested in me, and that hurt."

Which Clinton should have been able to figure out without prompting. Elliot's made pretty clear that he has no confidence in this area, and is easily hurt.
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