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Poll

Does Iris ever where a hat/mask that makes her resemble the flower she shares a name with?

what
- 3 (9.4%)
yes
- 4 (12.5%)
no
- 6 (18.8%)
maybe
- 2 (6.3%)
how much sleep have you had?
- 11 (34.4%)
Actually, she has an _Iris oratoria_ mask.
- 3 (9.4%)
other
- 0 (0%)
Sven, drink more spathe ham.
- 3 (9.4%)

Total Members Voted: 32


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Author Topic: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)  (Read 24817 times)

Gyrre

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IDK it's the only poll I could think of tied to the comic atm.

Anyways.......
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Gyrre

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #1 on: 31 Jan 2021, 15:26 »



EDIT: Too much useless trivia knowledge.
I was going to make a crack about her wearing rainbow underwear as a reference to the Greek goddess or rainbows, Iris (also called Iridion), but that seems like it'd be a really weird poll option. Even for me.
« Last Edit: 31 Jan 2021, 16:34 by Gyrre »
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #2 on: 31 Jan 2021, 18:21 »

Comic's up.

Willow looked like she was about to burst into song on panel 2. She almost had love hearts in her eyes.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #3 on: 31 Jan 2021, 18:27 »

I sorta agree with the one poster that Willow is kinda a author NPC pushing the plot along.

But eh. *shrug*

Re, the poll: Dude, are you okay? Really?

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #4 on: 31 Jan 2021, 18:30 »

I... I feel like Willow is using the phrase "toxic masculinity" wrong.

Like, Clinton suddenly having to come to terms with liking a guy for the first time is him learning something new about himself and still needing to figure out what that means, not an example of toxic behavior brought on by an unrealistic ideal of masculinity.

He's not lashing out at people because he thinks "(insert derogatory term for LGBT here)" makes him less of a man. It's more like. "Oh, so this is something new that I don't have a frame of reference to process". That's not toxic masculinity, that's friggin growing up.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #5 on: 31 Jan 2021, 18:48 »

I agree that toxic masculinity doesn't really have much to do with figuring out your sexuality, but I don't think that's what Willow meant. I thought she was connecting toxic masculinity with a lack of self-acceptance and freedom in general, which in my experience is absolutely true.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #6 on: 31 Jan 2021, 19:00 »

Yay, new friend! (No, not you, spookybot/Yay Newfriend)
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #7 on: 31 Jan 2021, 19:09 »

I sorta agree with the one poster that Willow is kinda a author NPC pushing the plot along.

But eh. *shrug*

Re, the poll: Dude, are you okay? Really?

Yeah, just weird sleep these past few weekends. It was this weird falling-asleep-thought poll or none at all. Story arc voting is kind of pointless, and some of the arcs are difficult to track.

I... I feel like Willow is using the phrase "toxic masculinity" wrong.

Like, Clinton suddenly having to come to terms with liking a guy for the first time is him learning something new about himself and still needing to figure out what that means, not an example of toxic behavior brought on by an unrealistic ideal of masculinity.

He's not lashing out at people because he thinks "(insert derogatory term for LGBT here)" makes him less of a man. It's more like. "Oh, so this is something new that I don't have a frame of reference to process". That's not toxic masculinity, that's friggin growing up.

I saw a good vid about toxic masculinity earlier today (no, seriously).
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #8 on: 31 Jan 2021, 20:30 »

I agree that toxic masculinity doesn't really have much to do with figuring out your sexuality, but I don't think that's what Willow meant. I thought she was connecting toxic masculinity with a lack of self-acceptance and freedom in general, which in my experience is absolutely true.

A lack of self acceptance isn't an inherently masculine trait, though... Nor is the idea of feeling anxiety over having feelings for someone of the same gender.

Faye was in the exact same situation, suddenly having to come to terms with her attraction to another woman, to the point of having a panic attack. She ran to a friend for advice and had to work out what she was feeling and what to do about it. Clinton is actually handling it better than her, as his first response. For example, he didn't immediately try to convince himself that he wasn't feeling what he was feeling like Faye did.

I feel like the only reason the term "toxic masculinity" is even coming up now is that Clinton is male, and Willow has decided that toxic masculinity is therefore the issue, without... you know, actually knowing all that much about him.
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hedgie

Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #9 on: 31 Jan 2021, 20:33 »

I agree that toxic masculinity doesn't really have much to do with figuring out your sexuality, but I don't think that's what Willow meant. I thought she was connecting toxic masculinity with a lack of self-acceptance and freedom in general, which in my experience is absolutely true.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #10 on: 31 Jan 2021, 21:15 »

A lack of self acceptance isn't an inherently masculine trait, though... Nor is the idea of feeling anxiety over having feelings for someone of the same gender.

If I understand it correctly, toxic masculinity isn't "submitting to inherently masculine traits," it's more of a pressure to conform to the ideals of strength and solitude and whatnot that society views as traditionally masculine. It's true that conforming to the standards of others rather than accepting yourself isn't inherently masculine, but it is something that many men receive social pressure, whether conscious or unconscious, to do.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #11 on: 31 Jan 2021, 21:33 »

A lack of self acceptance isn't an inherently masculine trait, though... Nor is the idea of feeling anxiety over having feelings for someone of the same gender.

If I understand it correctly, toxic masculinity isn't "submitting to inherently masculine traits," it's more of a pressure to conform to the ideals of strength and solitude and whatnot that society views as traditionally masculine. It's true that conforming to the standards of others rather than accepting yourself isn't inherently masculine, but it is something that many men receive social pressure, whether conscious or unconscious, to do.
Another, more descriptive, term for it is "limiting masculinity".
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #12 on: 31 Jan 2021, 21:44 »

A lack of self acceptance isn't an inherently masculine trait, though... Nor is the idea of feeling anxiety over having feelings for someone of the same gender.

If I understand it correctly, toxic masculinity isn't "submitting to inherently masculine traits," it's more of a pressure to conform to the ideals of strength and solitude and whatnot that society views as traditionally masculine. It's true that conforming to the standards of others rather than accepting yourself isn't inherently masculine, but it is something that many men receive social pressure, whether conscious or unconscious, to do.

Which still doesn't seem to apply in this case. Once again, Willow seems to be assuming toxic masculinity is an issue purely because Clinton is male.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #13 on: 31 Jan 2021, 21:52 »

Honest question: what makes you think it's not a factor? I didn't quite get your first argument.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #14 on: 31 Jan 2021, 22:28 »

Nice strip!  ... but 'embrade' in panel 3 is  :?
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #15 on: 31 Jan 2021, 22:36 »

Honest question: what makes you think it's not a factor? I didn't quite get your first argument.

Because we've seen no indication that he's felt any sort of pressure to maintain a perceived masculine ideal in this case, either internally or externally. Realizing he had feelings for Elliot wasn't treated as an identity challenging revelation. He acknowledged his feelings quickly and moved on to ineptly figuring out what to do about them. The central conflict of his relationship arc has been he's a monumental doofus and Elliot is a monumental ball of anxiety (with a side bit of trying to resolve their mutual feelings for Brun), not whether or not he has some built in hangups telling him his feelings for Elliot are wrong or weird. 

The only suggestion that he might be fighting against a perceived masculine identity at all has been Willow saying "toxic masculinity". Nothing actually in the story has suggested it. The story shows a guy with no relationship experience being about as far out of his depth as he could be and trying to doofus his way to some sort of conclusion.

It's... I don't know, the kinda thing you'd expect twentysomethings sticking their noses into the business of people they just met and know nothing about would say, I guess. I'm not saying it's bad writing or anything on Jeph's part. I think he's written a very believable College Student.

BUT...

A person's natural normal anxieties facing something new don't suddenly become toxic masculinity just because they're male. If we're going to have a thing about Clinton wrestling with his idea of manhood as it relates to his attraction to another guy, I feel like that sort of thing would need more setup than some stranger saying "toxic masculinity" without actually knowing anything about him.

So yeah, Willow's kinda annoying with that stuff. Come back to me when you learn some flippin nuance, kid.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #16 on: 31 Jan 2021, 23:10 »

All this talk has actually made me check today’s comic out of sheer curiosity.

“I should reassess those preconceptions...”

Is that not what he’s been doing for the past million strips? Sheesh.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #17 on: 31 Jan 2021, 23:29 »

I do think that the big revelation in this strip is the implication that, as much as he loves her, Clinton really doesn't like Claire. Given her tendency to ignore boundaries when she's excited, I can imagine that an introverted personality like his might resent how 'in your face' she can get about wanting details and wanting to 'help'.

Clinton is troubled and conflicted because Willow is basically the same personality type. Only she's a stranger. This means he has to sort out in his head whether Claire's behaviour is really annoying to him because she's his sister or whether it's just annoying. This will impact on what he decides to do with this person who has decided to be his friend irrespective of whether he wants her to be one.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #18 on: 01 Feb 2021, 04:23 »

I do think that the big revelation in this strip is the implication that, as much as he loves her, Clinton really doesn't like Claire. Given her tendency to ignore boundaries when she's excited, I can imagine that an introverted personality like his might resent how 'in your face' she can get about wanting details and wanting to 'help'.

Clinton is troubled and conflicted because Willow is basically the same personality type. Only she's a stranger. This means he has to sort out in his head whether Claire's behaviour is really annoying to him because she's his sister or whether it's just annoying. This will impact on what he decides to do with this person who has decided to be his friend irrespective of whether he wants her to be one.

I can certainly relate to the feeling of 'solve your own glaring personal issues before trying to get involved with mine' wben it comes to siblings and family.
"Remove the plank from your own eye before trying to remo e the speck of dust from your brother's" and all that
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de_la_Nae

Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #19 on: 01 Feb 2021, 05:59 »

*gestures at comic 4449*

y'all literally overlooking the fact that he literally says one of the reasons he's feeling anxious about this is because Eliot's a man, implying that this anxiety tastes different from the anxiety when he dated Emily.

it's not actually nearly as big a leap in logic as some of you are making it out to be, for reasons I can only guess/pattern match.

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #20 on: 01 Feb 2021, 06:12 »

Hopefully this one doesn’t lead up to Clinton being hit up for money again.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #21 on: 01 Feb 2021, 08:57 »

*gestures at comic 4449*

y'all literally overlooking the fact that he literally says one of the reasons he's feeling anxious about this is because Eliot's a man, implying that this anxiety tastes different from the anxiety when he dated Emily.

it's not actually nearly as big a leap in logic as some of you are making it out to be, for reasons I can only guess/pattern match.

That's a valid point, but I still really don't see that as toxic masculinity.  There's no indication whatsoever that Clinton buys into what toxic masculinity is selling in terms of relationships.  He presumably always liked women, and now he's been presented with a situation where he likes a man, and it's a new dimension that he's having to figure out how to navigate.  He's not fighting his attraction to Elliot, he shows no signs of thinking that being bisexual or gay is "bad", and overall he seems very comfortable with an identity and life outlook that doesn't fit the stereotypical "manly man" that toxic masculinity preaches.  His big sister is a transwoman, and while he seems irritated at aspects of her overly-helpful personality, it's clear that he really loves her without question.  I just really see someone who is just a bit overwhelmed at a major paradigm shift in his personal lovemap, but in a "a whole bunch of new options and feelings opened up and I need time to sift through them" way and not a "THE ONLY ROAD THAT'S RIGHT IS STRAIGHT!" way.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #22 on: 01 Feb 2021, 09:33 »

In response to SmilingCat: I see what you mean, but I still disagree. I think that with the situation with the Augustus dad combined with Clinton's excuses in the Emily relationship, there's a lot of early evidence for toxic masculinity being a factor in Clinton's life, at least at some point. That said, I absolutely understand why you think Willow's jumping to conclusions, because the last time we did see any conclusive evidence was over a thousand strips ago.

In response to HeavyP: That all makes sense, but I just want to point out that you don't necessarily need to buy into toxic masculinity to be influenced by it. Being aware of it isn't a free escape from it.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #23 on: 01 Feb 2021, 10:48 »

In response to HeavyP: That all makes sense, but I just want to point out that you don't necessarily need to buy into toxic masculinity to be influenced by it. Being aware of it isn't a free escape from it.

100% agree, and that's a good personal reminder.  I'm a cis-dude and I can completely attest that it'll get you all sneaky-like if you're not paying attention, even when you know what it is and how it affects you.  The human mind is a mess that's simultaneously horrible and wonderful.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #24 on: 01 Feb 2021, 12:06 »

Today is the second mention of "toxic masculinity" in the comic. It's very disheartening to hear that I'm poison simply for having the audacity to be born male. I fear for the mental health of boys being constantly told that they're poison because they act the way their nature compels them to act. Boys should be free to wrestle, be physical, be rough and tumble, and just be boys without the fear of being told they're defective. Contrary to current opinion, little boys aren't defective little girls that don't know how to behave. Given love and respect, boys will learn love and respect. Given a little guidance, boys will learn when to be physical and when to be quiet. As an example: My wife and I enjoyed little day trips in pre-covid times. One of our trips found us in a small restaurant in a small Texas town. As we were leaving, there was a few people waiting for tables. Between us and the door was a family of five. Mom, Dad, and three boys of roughly 5 to 7 years old. The boys were playing, but not being loud or rude, just burning a little energy. As we approached, Dad spoke one simple word. All he said was "Boys" in a low tone that meant "pay attention". At that one word the three boys looked around, saw my wife, an older gray haired Grandma, and immediately stepped aside and stood still. They weren't toxic, they weren't poison, they were boys. Mom and Dad knew they needed to play like boys, but some would have them think that their need to be slightly boisterous somehow made them defective. I'm sure I'll get blasted for my opinion, but just once I'd like to see someone refer to "toxic femininity" when referencing the way girls act (I raised two daughters, don't try to tell me little girls are all angels) to see how quickly the torches and pitchforks would appear.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #25 on: 01 Feb 2021, 12:25 »

I think you might misunderstand what the term 'toxic masculinity' refers to. Have you watched the video that Gyrre posted earlier in the thread? It explains the concept very well (and it will also make you adore Aragorn).

If you would like to discuss this topic some more, it might be a good idea to start a separate thread.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #26 on: 01 Feb 2021, 12:35 »

Nice strip!  ... but 'embrade' in panel 3 is  :?
Should have been embraCe.  These kinds of things happen.  Sometimes Jeph fixes them, sometimes he doesn't.
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hedgie

Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #27 on: 01 Feb 2021, 14:15 »

Yeah.  He’s much more likely to catch stuff when people on Patreon comment on it.  But I don’t think that he reads those comments all that much.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #28 on: 01 Feb 2021, 15:42 »

Today is the second mention of "toxic masculinity" in the comic. It's very disheartening to hear that I'm poison simply for having the audacity to be born male. I fear for the mental health of boys being constantly told that they're poison because they act the way their nature compels them to act. Boys should be free to wrestle, be physical, be rough and tumble, and just be boys without the fear of being told they're defective. Contrary to current opinion, little boys aren't defective little girls that don't know how to behave. Given love and respect, boys will learn love and respect. Given a little guidance, boys will learn when to be physical and when to be quiet. As an example: My wife and I enjoyed little day trips in pre-covid times. One of our trips found us in a small restaurant in a small Texas town. As we were leaving, there was a few people waiting for tables. Between us and the door was a family of five. Mom, Dad, and three boys of roughly 5 to 7 years old. The boys were playing, but not being loud or rude, just burning a little energy. As we approached, Dad spoke one simple word. All he said was "Boys" in a low tone that meant "pay attention". At that one word the three boys looked around, saw my wife, an older gray haired Grandma, and immediately stepped aside and stood still. They weren't toxic, they weren't poison, they were boys. Mom and Dad knew they needed to play like boys, but some would have them think that their need to be slightly boisterous somehow made them defective. I'm sure I'll get blasted for my opinion, but just once I'd like to see someone refer to "toxic femininity" when referencing the way girls act (I raised two daughters, don't try to tell me little girls are all angels) to see how quickly the torches and pitchforks would appear.

Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure you really comprehend what the term 'toxic masculinity' means, and we have quite extensive discussion of it all over this forum.

It seems like you're feeling quite attacked by the concept, though, which is fine - I felt quite attacked by it too at first, because it does feel like inherently an attack on maleness. But that isn't what it is. We can go into this in much detail if you'd actually like to, albeit in a different thread.

It'd also be a bit nonsensical if 'being male is inherently poison' that was what the term meant given that the strip doesn't demonstrate that in any way, the entire recent plot we're following is about a relationship between two men possibly forming, the comic is written by a man, the comic is not saying 'burn men at the stake' and much of the worst behaviour in the comic has come from female characters, so...

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #29 on: 01 Feb 2021, 17:53 »

Yay, new friend!

Mmmm. And they just met.
Presumptuous much, Willow?
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #30 on: 01 Feb 2021, 18:10 »

Pareidolia: a subset of apophenia, a term coined by psychiatrist Klaus Conrad in his 1958 publication on the beginning stages of schizophrenia.

o-KAY then...
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #31 on: 01 Feb 2021, 18:22 »

Quote from: Wikipedia
Pareidolia (/pɛraɪˈdoʊliə/, /pɛriː-/) is the tendency for incorrect perception of a stimulus as an object, pattern or meaning known to the observer, such as seeing shapes in clouds, seeing faces in inanimate objects or abstract patterns, or hearing hidden messages in music.


So Willow sees patterns in seemingly unrelated events.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #32 on: 01 Feb 2021, 18:51 »

Willow will probably get along with Clinton & Claire's Mom at least...

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #33 on: 01 Feb 2021, 19:40 »

I'm a firm believer that toxic femininity exists as well, they just are better at covering their tracks/hiding the bodies.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #34 on: 01 Feb 2021, 20:06 »

What do you mean by 'hiding their tracks'? Yes, toxic femininity exists even if it isn't named such. Just like toxic/limiting masculinity restricts men ('men don't cry/feel emotions beside anger/love children/hug other men'), toxic/limiting femininity restricts women ('women belong in the house/suck at math/deserve to be paid less than men/only exist to bear children'). Women have been fighting that for centuries, though, whereas the realization that men are also harmed by stereotypes around their gender is a more recent one (hence the more 'modern' name for it).
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Gus_Smedstad

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #35 on: 01 Feb 2021, 22:01 »

The object in the background of panel 3 is Messier 51, in case you're curious. Almost certainly NASA's posted image.

I've photographed it myself, though obviously not to the same quality.

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #36 on: 01 Feb 2021, 23:24 »

No, Willow, that wasn't the 'universe' telling you to do anything. That was the writer of this comic assigning you to get Clintelliot off of the sandbank that he'd sailed it onto because of the fact that the two characters just didn't work together in the way that he'd hoped.

BTW, in panel 5, Clinton was responding to Willow's question with a resounding and highly-sarcastic 'no'.

EDIT-P.S.:
I've been looking at the strip's footer text. Now that Jeph has brought it up, am I the only one getting strong Tilly mk2 vibes from Willow? An essentially good-natured person with no sense of personal boundaries who believes that the solution for someone not liking you is to push harder?
« Last Edit: 01 Feb 2021, 23:34 by BenRG »
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #37 on: 02 Feb 2021, 05:37 »

Tilly is highly focused and very good at what she does. It remains to be seen if this is true of Willow. ("One! Get one order wrong and they rag you about it forever!")

Tilly was designed to be annoying, so that Hannelore's forbearance would stand out. I'd like to see more of Willow. Especially if we also see more of Iris.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #38 on: 02 Feb 2021, 07:16 »

Today is the second mention of "toxic masculinity" in the comic. It's very disheartening to hear that I'm poison simply for having the audacity to be born male. I fear for the mental health of boys being constantly told that they're poison because they act the way their nature compels them to act. Boys should be free to wrestle, be physical, be rough and tumble, and just be boys without the fear of being told they're defective. Contrary to current opinion, little boys aren't defective little girls that don't know how to behave. Given love and respect, boys will learn love and respect. Given a little guidance, boys will learn when to be physical and when to be quiet. As an example: My wife and I enjoyed little day trips in pre-covid times. One of our trips found us in a small restaurant in a small Texas town. As we were leaving, there was a few people waiting for tables. Between us and the door was a family of five. Mom, Dad, and three boys of roughly 5 to 7 years old. The boys were playing, but not being loud or rude, just burning a little energy. As we approached, Dad spoke one simple word. All he said was "Boys" in a low tone that meant "pay attention". At that one word the three boys looked around, saw my wife, an older gray haired Grandma, and immediately stepped aside and stood still. They weren't toxic, they weren't poison, they were boys. Mom and Dad knew they needed to play like boys, but some would have them think that their need to be slightly boisterous somehow made them defective. I'm sure I'll get blasted for my opinion, but just once I'd like to see someone refer to "toxic femininity" when referencing the way girls act (I raised two daughters, don't try to tell me little girls are all angels) to see how quickly the torches and pitchforks would appear.

Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure you really comprehend what the term 'toxic masculinity' means, and we have quite extensive discussion of it all over this forum.

It seems like you're feeling quite attacked by the concept, though, which is fine - I felt quite attacked by it too at first, because it does feel like inherently an attack on maleness. But that isn't what it is. We can go into this in much detail if you'd actually like to, albeit in a different thread.

It'd also be a bit nonsensical if 'being male is inherently poison' that was what the term meant given that the strip doesn't demonstrate that in any way, the entire recent plot we're following is about a relationship between two men possibly forming, the comic is written by a man, the comic is not saying 'burn men at the stake' and much of the worst behaviour in the comic has come from female characters, so...
*creaks limbs*
*brushes the dust off this account*
I think the problem some people are having with this concept, now having been introduced to this discussion twice in the space of the four most recent comics, is that of all the people it could apply to, it arguably applies to Clinton the least.
I think it is quite reasonable to say that Clinton doesn't have any problems with shrugging off conformity to a set masculine ideal. He is noticeably comfortable with himself, his perceptions of gender, his physical prowess or lack thereof, and various other things that would be encompassed by rigid masculine gender roles. I also get the sense, from a once-over reading of his character, that he is fairly well aware of the concept of toxic masculinity and has already done his time combating it to become assured of himself as an adult - to such an extent as was needed given his social circles. So, for it to be introduced now by someone he has only just met feels more than a little insulting to his character. This is not the real problem, although it certainly doesn't help.

The real problem with it is that, as a concept, it is completely unapproachable for Clinton. It is not actionable. Introducing the concept of toxic masculinity into this discussion adds absolutely nothing to his understanding of his own confused feelings for Elliott, and provide him no potential new avenues to consider. It is in every respect a nothing statement, both times it is used.
Sure, "throwing off the shackles of toxic masculinity" sounds good on paper, but it doesn't actually inform anything that he could do or would do from this situation. Freedom and self-acceptance are not nearly as much his problem as figuring out how to actually apply his feelings to a (potential) relationship - those are two very different issues. Accepting that you are attracted to someone and interested in them romantically is very different from figuring out how to date them and otherwise interact with them, even once those feelings become plainly known.
Clinton didn't screw things up with Elliott because he was too closeted or too entrenched in toxic masculinity to accept his feelings, he screwed things up because his idea of how to handle interacting with Elliott in social or romantic contexts was... erm... fundamentally flawed. That is not a problem that Clinton can solve by coming to terms with toxic masculinity.

The most charitable interpretation of Willow's advice is that she means well but is tackling entirely the wrong problem. Less charitable interpretations might note that to bring up toxic masculinity once in advice to a stranger could be interpreted as a suggestion of a potential contributing factor; to bring it up twice indicates that she has now, for want of better terms, doubled down and accepted this as her headcanon, of a man she has only just met. Which, in turn, seems very uncharitable of her.
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Guairdegan

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #39 on: 02 Feb 2021, 11:46 »

Today is the second mention of "toxic masculinity" in the comic. It's very disheartening to hear that I'm poison simply for having the audacity to be born male. I fear for the mental health of boys being constantly told that they're poison because they act the way their nature compels them to act. Boys should be free to wrestle, be physical, be rough and tumble, and just be boys without the fear of being told they're defective. Contrary to current opinion, little boys aren't defective little girls that don't know how to behave. Given love and respect, boys will learn love and respect. Given a little guidance, boys will learn when to be physical and when to be quiet. As an example: My wife and I enjoyed little day trips in pre-covid times. One of our trips found us in a small restaurant in a small Texas town. As we were leaving, there was a few people waiting for tables. Between us and the door was a family of five. Mom, Dad, and three boys of roughly 5 to 7 years old. The boys were playing, but not being loud or rude, just burning a little energy. As we approached, Dad spoke one simple word. All he said was "Boys" in a low tone that meant "pay attention". At that one word the three boys looked around, saw my wife, an older gray haired Grandma, and immediately stepped aside and stood still. They weren't toxic, they weren't poison, they were boys. Mom and Dad knew they needed to play like boys, but some would have them think that their need to be slightly boisterous somehow made them defective. I'm sure I'll get blasted for my opinion, but just once I'd like to see someone refer to "toxic femininity" when referencing the way girls act (I raised two daughters, don't try to tell me little girls are all angels) to see how quickly the torches and pitchforks would appear.

Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure you really comprehend what the term 'toxic masculinity' means, and we have quite extensive discussion of it all over this forum.

It seems like you're feeling quite attacked by the concept, though, which is fine - I felt quite attacked by it too at first, because it does feel like inherently an attack on maleness. But that isn't what it is. We can go into this in much detail if you'd actually like to, albeit in a different thread.

It'd also be a bit nonsensical if 'being male is inherently poison' that was what the term meant given that the strip doesn't demonstrate that in any way, the entire recent plot we're following is about a relationship between two men possibly forming, the comic is written by a man, the comic is not saying 'burn men at the stake' and much of the worst behaviour in the comic has come from female characters, so...

I don't feel attacked by the concept, that's easily laughed off. The problem is the execution, and persistent accusation. I've been griped at for holding the door open for a woman (yes, lady, I know your arm isn't broken), griped at for standing when a woman enters the room (if I didn't I'd feel my mother and grandmother slapping me on the back of the head), and for offering to help a woman with some physical task. I don't do these things because I feel that women are weak or inferior,  I do these things because I feel I should help someone when I can, and I was taught to treat women with respect. Today, those actions are considered to be toxic.
 
I watched the video linked in an earlier message, and the ideas expressed are correct in some points but quite wrong in others. I've heard Aragorn used as a prime example of toxic masculinity. The movie softened his character and introduced the idea that he was afraid to become king, but the book shows him in a harsher, more "manly" light. If the two that recorded the video ever read the book, it'll be interesting to see if their opinion changes.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #40 on: 02 Feb 2021, 12:02 »

I don't feel attacked by the concept, that's easily laughed off.

It being brought up in the comic motivated you enough to register on the forum just to criticise it. Is that laughing it off?

Quote
The problem is the execution, and persistent accusation. I've been griped at for holding the door open for a woman (yes, lady, I know your arm isn't broken), griped at for standing when a woman enters the room (if I didn't I'd feel my mother and grandmother slapping me on the back of the head), and for offering to help a woman with some physical task. I don't do these things because I feel that women are weak or inferior,  I do these things because I feel I should help someone when I can, and I was taught to treat women with respect. Today, those actions are considered to be toxic.

Why is your feeling of doing what you think is respectful more important than what someone is telling you is a respectful way to behave towards them?

It sucks that your mother and grandmother hit you. Parents shouldn't hit their kids.

Do you hold the door for men? Do you rise when men enter the room? Is rising when a woman enters a room helping them? Should men not be treated with respect?

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #41 on: 02 Feb 2021, 12:03 »

At this point I'd have to say a Willow and Clinton match up seems much more interesting than anything more happening between Elliot and Clinton.
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Farideh

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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #42 on: 02 Feb 2021, 12:16 »

I watched the video linked in an earlier message, and the ideas expressed are correct in some points but quite wrong in others. I've heard Aragorn used as a prime example of toxic masculinity. The movie softened his character and introduced the idea that he was afraid to become king, but the book shows him in a harsher, more "manly" light. If the two that recorded the video ever read the book, it'll be interesting to see if their opinion changes.


They might have read the books, but that's besides the point. The YouTube channel is called 'Cinema Therapy', and thus they discuss how Aragorn is portrayed in the movies.
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hedgie

Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #43 on: 02 Feb 2021, 13:11 »

Do you hold the door for men? Do you rise when men enter the room? Is rising when a woman enters a room helping them? Should men not be treated with respect?

I don’t do the rise thing, unless it’s a friend, and I’ll open/hold doors for anyone, or offer to help them with any task that I’m for which I’m well-suited.  And I live in one of the archetypal California University towns.  I must be doing something wrong, because no one has said anything negative.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #44 on: 02 Feb 2021, 13:45 »

What do you mean by 'hiding their tracks'? Yes, toxic femininity exists even if it isn't named such. Just like toxic/limiting masculinity restricts men ('men don't cry/feel emotions beside anger/love children/hug other men'), toxic/limiting femininity restricts women ('women belong in the house/suck at math/deserve to be paid less than men/only exist to bear children'). Women have been fighting that for centuries, though, whereas the realization that men are also harmed by stereotypes around their gender is a more recent one (hence the more 'modern' name for it).

It was a humorous reference that women are better at covering up evidence, inferring that they are better with long term plots than men. Sorry if it seemed otherwise.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #45 on: 02 Feb 2021, 18:11 »

Iris appears to have a bad case of Resting B*tch Face...
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #46 on: 02 Feb 2021, 18:12 »

Do you hold the door for men?
Yes, especially if I'm at the head of the herd (I often was when I still worked in an office between being the Lead and walking faster than almost everyone else) or when that man had a handful/armful/cart-full and was trying to navigate the door.  I consider it ordinary politeness/helpfulness and haven't had a woman lash out at my "sexism".  And since doorways are usually in pairs in my state (because of the weather), I've held them for women and then immediately sailed through the next door held open by the woman I just held one for without anyone caring.  But then, I work in IT and women in IT often fit in with the guys just to get along.  So, if I'm sexist, it's on some unconscious level I don't really access unless someone says something.  My current boss is a fine woman, we're direct with each other, and she's never complained about anything related to sexism, so maybe I've learned something by this advanced age.  Now, where's my cane and warm milk?   :-D :angel: :roll:
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #47 on: 02 Feb 2021, 18:14 »

Iris appears to have a bad case of Resting B*tch Face...
Iris has a bad attitude, and RBF to go with it.  I've worked with a few Iris's and they're a real drag.
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #48 on: 02 Feb 2021, 18:15 »

Very hung up on "she doesn't have a cell phone." Even though I feel like I shouldn't be phased by it, it seems like the quirkiest thing about Willow yet.
(Even though I know there are non-"quirky" reasons to not have a cell phone.)
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Re: WCDT 4451-4455 (the 1st through 5th of February, 2021)
« Reply #49 on: 02 Feb 2021, 18:38 »

I love getting lost in yarn stores. So much to see and touch!
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