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what

3 (9.4%)

yes

4 (12.5%)

no

6 (18.8%)

maybe

2 (6.3%)

how much sleep have you had?

11 (34.4%)

Actually, she has an _Iris oratoria_ mask.

3 (9.4%)

other

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Sven, drink more spathe ham.

3 (9.4%)

Total Members Voted: 32

[shanejayell]

*raises hand*  I've gotten lost in stores. It's not THAT weird.

[awkwardness]

*raises hand*  I've gotten lost in stores. It's not THAT weird.

...at least you didn't get lost in the same store TWICE in a span of an hour

[awkwardness]

Hmm...Iris really wants to try to look stoic but the more she tries to act stoic the more concerned she actually appears.

Gotta love an apathy paradox!

[Gnabberwocky]

I can't tell if the Willow/Iris/Yemisi friend group is really well balanced or really unstable.

You have Willow, who is impulsive, slightly spacey, and a relentless optimist. You have Iris, who is caustic, coldly real, and a relentless pessimist. Then you have Yemisi, who seems like she never strongly agrees or disagrees with either of them and (I'm assuming) acts as a mediator. Is it the perfect friend group, or is it a disaster waiting to happen?

[Sorflakne]

Can't speak for yarn stores, but one can get turned around in an SR Harris.

The Mega Mall (it will always be the Mega Mall, just like it'll always be Camp Snoopy.  fight me) is like this as well, but that's mainly due to the building's gargantuan size rather than an individual store within it.

[Stoon]

What is it Yemisi is eating?  Didn't they go in for bagels?  That doesn't look like a bagel.

[Gnabberwocky]

It's a Purse Bagel, of course.

[Gus_Smedstad]

Do you hold the door for men?

I frequently hold doors for other humans, regardless of gender. Letting a door slam in the face of the person immediately behind me just seems rude.

[SeattleCrochetWoman]

I think she must’ve been at the WEBS yarn store in Northampton, or the in-universe equivalent. I’ve never been there, but I hear it’s huge.

[BenRG]

I doubt that Willow really got lost. I think that she just kept on finding new things on which to focus her thoughts and kept on forgetting where she was going or was supposed to be doing!

I think that we can now expand our understanding the Three Fates to show that they are actually the three supports of a stable structure where, individually, their perceptions are too extreme to be entirely stable or even sensible or reasonable:

• Willow - Optimist & Believer
• Iris - Pessimist & Cynic/Doubter
• Yemisi - Rationalist & Deal-maker

None of them exactly address reality full-on, so all three need to address any given problem to be sure that they're addressing it properly. In other words, they're three people who have found out that their friends help them cover their own blind-spots. Act together and things generally turn out well. Act apart and, as with Willow right now, things have a tendency to slide into extremes and, sometimes, problems!

[Gyrre]

Am I the only one who took Willow's comment in tbe 3rd panel of 4451 as a "go you" affirmation?

Anyone else getting a worried big sister vibe from Iris in today's strip?

[St.Clair]

Very hung up on "she doesn't have a cell phone." Even though I feel like I shouldn't be phased by it, it seems like the quirkiest thing about Willow yet.
(Even though I know there are non-"quirky" reasons to not have a cell phone.)

I didn't until a couple of years ago.  My main reasons: 

• my employment has been (and remains) fairly uncertain, and minimizing monthly charges/obligations was a good thing.
• I'm not really the "roaming" type; I'm usually either at home (where I still have a landline, as I'm from the 20th century), at work, or (briefly) at a store.

That said, I have since discovered the utility (and sometimes near-necessity) of having such a device, far beyond merely being able to make and receive telephone calls.

[Gyrre]

Very hung up on "she doesn't have a cell phone." Even though I feel like I shouldn't be phased by it, it seems like the quirkiest thing about Willow yet.
(Even though I know there are non-"quirky" reasons to not have a cell phone.)

I didn't until a couple of years ago.  My main reasons: 

• my employment has been (and remains) fairly uncertain, and minimizing monthly charges/obligations was a good thing.
• I'm not really the "roaming" type; I'm usually either at home (where I still have a landline, as I'm from the 20th century), at work, or (briefly) at a store.

That said, I have since discovered the utility (and sometimes near-necessity) of having such a device, far beyond merely being able to make and receive telephone calls.

I used to move around a bit so I had a Nokia brick and moved to a standard flip phone after the brick wasn't available. The main two reasons I bumped up to a smart phone were the crew transport job I had gotten at the time (that didn't have any GPS equipped vehicles when I started) and because I found out I could tether my laptop to its internet instead of having to choose between the crap local ISP and Satan's anus (Comcast).

[Wingy]

it will always be the Mega Mall, just like it'll always be Camp Snoopy.  fight me

Yah, youbetcha.  I can't 'cause you're correct.

[JoeCovenant]

At this point I'd have to say a Willow and Clinton match up seems much more interesting than anything more happening between Elliot and Clinton.

This... ALLLLL the way this.
(And I say that as a nevershipper!)

[Gus_Smedstad]

I didn't until a couple of years ago.

I resisted getting a cell phone for a long time. I didn't want people expecting they could call me anywhere, I didn't want to pay another monthly fee, and in the 90's, I thought the attachment many of my co-workers had to their flip-phones was almost cultish.

Eventually, I relented. Cell phone service got cheap, and having a phone for emergencies seemed useful. Having one proved to be really handy for the "we got separated at the mall, where are you?" case. Also handy if you get lost in a yarn store.

These days, my phone is surgically attached to my hip, but not because it's a phone. I always have it because I use it to read books, and I can't be without a book. Or, to be more accurate, the 20+ I currently have downloaded and patiently waiting for me.

I'm still pathologically cheap about phone service, though. I only have a data plan because I can get it for $7.50 / month. Otherwise I'd stick with wifi only.

[Is it cold in here?]

Boys should be free to wrestle, be physical, be rough and tumble, and just be boys

Welcome, new person!

You went straight to having common ground with me.

They should also be free to cry without being beaten for it (happened to me) and free to accept a "No" from a woman graciously without losing face. When they're not, that's the cultural attitude set that is (my understanding of) "toxic masculinity".

Why Willow brought it up I can't figure out unless she has an idea that the only reason a man would hesitate to acknowledge feelings toward another man is traditional homophobia.

EDIT:

I've gotten lost in my shower.

[sitnspin]

I, on the other hand, have not had a landline in a decade. I don't generally get any services to the place I am living, save electricity, as I don't tend to stay in one place very long and I prefer to minimise the steps needed to leave.

[hedgie]

Almost two decades for me, without. at least for having no phone plugged into one.  I do live in an area for decent services, but I want to avoid phone calls as much as possible anyway.

[pwhodges]

My phone line gets used less and less, EXCEPT it carries my Internet connection (and hence my mobile/cell calls when at home, because I have crap phone service in and around the house so they get routed via the wifi).

[Farideh]

I haven't had a landline in years. The only calls we got on our landline when we still had one was from charities wanting money, and they ALWAYS call during dinner.

[Gus_Smedstad]

97.8% of the calls I get on my landline are scams. [robot voice] THE IRS HAS FILED SUIT AGAINST YOU [/robot voice]. Because, as you know, the IRS always wants payment in Amazon gift cards.

I can't quite bring myself to get rid of my landline, though. Just old habits at this point, I guess.

[pwhodges]

97.8% of the calls I get on my landline are scams. [robot voice] THE IRS HAS FILED SUIT AGAINST YOU [/robot voice]

I get those on my mobile, too.  In fact only this morning I had a robot from the Inland Revenue call to say I was suspected of fraud, and if I didn't press "1" to connect to them they would get a warrant and I would be arrested shortly.  Then at lunchtime my wife heard a feature on this exact call on a radio magazine program.

[Perfectly Reasonable]

Pleased to see a new side of Iris. And we know more about Willow. Yemisi has a wonderful name.

Agree that Clinton/Willow looks more interesting than whatever is happening between Clinton and Elliot.

Toxic masculinity needs to move to DISCUSS.

I have been made to feel like a pariah for not having a cell phone. I will cheerfully slam a door in the face of anyone who chirps 'Get the app!'

[Farideh]

97.8% of the calls I get on my landline are scams. [robot voice] THE IRS HAS FILED SUIT AGAINST YOU [/robot voice]. Because, as you know, the IRS always wants payment in Amazon gift cards.

I can't quite bring myself to get rid of my landline, though. Just old habits at this point, I guess.

For a while I got a lot of calls on my cellphone to inform me that 'my Windows computer has been hacked'. Interesting, considering I have a Macbook at home, and my work laptop is well protected. I used to hand off my phone to my coworker at that point, who likes baiting those people, to see how long he could keep them on the line

[hedgie]

I’m pretty strictly Mac or Linux, myself.  Okay, technically, there’s a Windows partition on my laptop, but I haven’t booted into it for a couple of years now.  Then again, these scammers seem to be about as competent at tech stuff as my ISP’s support line.

[Stoon]

I haven't had a landline in over a decade.  Not since I looked on my phone company's web site and I realized a basic mobile plan costs less than a landline.

As for computers, I have a Windows/Linux triple boot.  2 different flavours of Linux.

[hedgie]

Lemme guess: Mint and either Debian, or Mint and Arch*?

[cesium133]

Back in college, when I had way too much spare time on my hands, I made an 11-boot (at least I think that was the number) monstrosity of a setup. Windows XP, Windows 3.1, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Syllable, Solaris, and as many Linux distros as I had hard drive space for. The most challenging part was coming up with a partition layout that all of the OSes would be happy with.

[hedgie]

Yeah, that’s pretty insane.

[Farideh]

Comic's up.

What Willow is talking about reminds me of something that was mentioned in one of the Hitchhiker's books:

In astrology the rules happen to be about stars and planets, but they could be about ducks and drakes for all the difference it would make. It's just a way of thinking about a problem which lets the shape of that problem begin to emerge. The more rules, the tinier the rules, the more arbitrary they are, the better. It's like throwing a handful of fine graphite dust on a piece of paper to see where the hidden indentations are. It lets you see the words that were written on the piece of paper above it that's now been taken away and hidden. The graphite's not important. It's just the means of revealing the indentations. So you see, astrology's nothing to do with astronomy. It's just to do with people thinking about people.

The patterns are what is important, not what you use to find them.

[shanejayell]

Well, whatever floats your boat, Willow....

[Gnabberwocky]

We are slowly learning that Willow is much wiser than we were originally led to believe.


Second thing: the debate inside the comic right now reminds me a lot of Wil and Penelope.

[Elder Sign]

I'm glad Clinton appears to have a high tolerance for this line of discussion, because heavily-introverted and Elliot-level-anxious me would have been all "please back off and get TF out of my face" a long time ago.  And I'm not really sure about the "please" bit.

[Gus_Smedstad]

I strongly, strongly disagree with Willow's reasoning here.

The problem with using made-up things to "make sense of the world" is that it's almost never "constructive." Rather than "making sense of the world," people make things up that aren't true because it fits what they want to be true.

There's a phrase for people who take patterns that aren't really there seriously. It's "conspiracy theorist." That leads to people like Marjorie Taylor Greene in Congress, and hundreds of people storming the US Capitol building.

There are lots of people who use religion to "make sense of the world," and the end result is that lots of them insist on dictating the actions of others, by restricting things like birth control or abortion. Or insisting that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry. In parts of the world where religion is more extreme, it means things like the death penalty for "disrespecting Islam."

Astrology isn't so obviously toxic, but if you take it seriously, you're still making decisions based on things that are imaginary.

In a broader sense, believing in patterns that aren't real generally prevents you from delving deeper and actually understanding what's going on. Neil deGrasse Tyson has a great talk about the number of great minds throughout history who gave up lines of inquiry because they already had a pat answer: the gods did it.

So, no. Willow's completely wrong. It does matter, and her argument is specious.

[Gnabberwocky]

I dunno. She specifically said "if you use them constructively," and conspiracy theories and discrimination obviously are just the opposite of constructive. Of course, the people who believe in them will tell you they're being constructive by following these nonexistent patterns, but nothing they do is constructive, by any compassionate standard.

Also, a huge difference between Willow and the Capitol mob is that Willow recognizes that these things aren't real. Trump supporters hung on every one of his words because they thought he was telling the truth. Willow knows that her feeling of connection with the universe likely doesn't exist, and she realizes that following through on them is extremely unlikely to cause any serious harm.

Third point: the book Sapiens (good read, would recommend) mentions, several times, that the only reason humanity was able to reach the place we are today was because of belief in fiction. We first established actual societies because of belief in religion, hierarchy, law, etc. Even now, one of the most connective (and dangerous) things in the world is money, which doesn't actually exist outside of our imaginations. The way I see it, the phrase for people who take patterns that aren't really there is "society."

Final thing: I want to make it very clear that none of this is an attempt to excuse people who discriminate on the basis of religion, members of the Capitol mob, wannabe dictators, or anyone else of the sort. As I said before, none of that is constructive and none of that is harmless.

[Gyrre]

97.8% of the calls I get on my landline are scams. [robot voice] THE IRS HAS FILED SUIT AGAINST YOU [/robot voice]. Because, as you know, the IRS always wants payment in Amazon gift cards.

I can't quite bring myself to get rid of my landline, though. Just old habits at this point, I guess.

For a while I got a lot of calls on my cellphone to inform me that 'my Windows computer has been hacked'. Interesting, considering I have a Macbook at home, and my work laptop is well protected. I used to hand off my phone to my coworker at that point, who likes baiting those people, to see how long he could keep them on the line

"Your car's warranty is about to expire."
"This is cardholder services..."
"Your [I think it was Comcast?] account's bill is overdue."
"Your Bank of America account has had unusual activity" [the number wasn't affiliated with BoA, I checked]

Back around 2014 I actually got a live human trying to do the cardholder services one. Dude was completely blindsided when I started asking questions like "which card company are you calling on behalf of"  and "can you tell me what company the credit card account is with?" He had the gall to actually ask for my credit card number so he 'could look up my account information'! I hung up and blocked the number.

[Gyrre]

I dunno. She specifically said "if you use them constructively," and conspiracy theories and discrimination obviously are just the opposite of constructive. Of course, the people who believe in them will tell you they're being constructive by following these nonexistent patterns, but nothing they do is constructive, by any compassionate standard.

[Snip]

That depends on two key things;
1) Are we talking about true conspiracies (i.e. the crime)
   *Operation Seaspray, the Pentagon trying to weaponize ticks, several unethical medical experiments carried out by our government, Jerry Epstein's murder, etc.

2) Are we talking about conspiracy theorists trying to warn people, or conspiracy nuts getting lead around by the nose?

[Oenone]

Yeah, tbh this interaction made me dislike Clinton a little more. It’s rude to tell people that a tool they use to get through the world is not real. Tarot, at least, fits into some of my Wiccans friends’ spiritual practice, and astrology has some beautiful symbolism to it. I don’t see why he’d be so dismissive of it to someone he just met.

[BenRG]

This strip fits into my post yesterday of Willow being the believer of the trio. What's interesting is that she chooses to believe (or at least act as if she does) irrespective of evidence because that belief enriches her life. It's worth remembering that humans always have a spiritual aspect to us and it's been proven that we need to address that in order to maintain our mental and emotional health.

On the other hand, Willow is actually strangely cynical in panel 5. She knows that a lot of hucksters have made a racket out of spirituality and actually doesn't seem to have a problem with that, which is kind of weird and makes me wonder what her moral compass is like.

In answer to Clinton's question in panel 5, I (who actually have known professional diviners and witches - yes, they used the term 'witch' and not 'wiccan', it was the 1970s and 1980s) can hear a snappy patter abut the crossing of his power and index data lines indicate that he's going to find his destiny in a new standardised cabling protocol soon...

[QuestionableIntentions]

Yeah, tbh this interaction made me dislike Clinton a little more. It’s rude to tell people that a tool they use to get through the world is not real. Tarot, at least, fits into some of my Wiccans friends’ spiritual practice, and astrology has some beautiful symbolism to it. I don’t see why he’d be so dismissive of it to someone he just met.

It maybe rude, but it is also correct.

The problem with such made up, arbitrary, untested systems is thst their results are also arbitrary and made up.

If you roll a dice to decide between six options than onc in a while that option may be the correct one, but mostly it will be wrong.

Willow is absolutely wrong in beleieving the process doesn't matter. It means you can get whatever results you want. That's how get results like "my god says I have to kill you"

[Gnabberwocky]

I don't know that my first post said what I wanted it to.

I'm seeing people post a lot of examples of really extreme religion, to the point of discrimination and violence. Obviously, if you're using religion or a similar belief to do that and excuse yourself from the consequences, of course that's wrong. But if you choose to believe in, say, astrology because it makes you feel good, what reason is there to stop you? You're not hurting anyone, your beliefs aren't offensive by definition, both your process and your end product are basically completely harmless...if all it does is give you an extra sense of security and belonging, no one should stand in your way.

[QuestionableIntentions]

I don't know that my first post said what I wanted it to.

I'm seeing people post a lot of examples of really extreme religion, to the point of discrimination and violence. Obviously, if you're using religion or a similar belief to do that and excuse yourself from the consequences, of course that's wrong. But if you choose to believe in, say, astrology because it makes you feel good, what reason is there to stop you? You're not hurting anyone, your beliefs aren't offensive by definition, both your process and your end product are basically completely harmless...if all it does is give you an extra sense of security and belonging, no one should stand in your way.

There are plenty of examples online of people refusing to date people of the wrong astrology sign.

And the problem is that these "harmless" believes are symptoms of a larger problem: The refusal of the scientific method.

Choosing comfort over truth.

[sitnspin]

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

It's not necessarily the specific beliefs one has that are dangerous or harmful, it is the mindset that let one believe those things that is dangerous. The beliefs are a symptom, not the disease.

[Cornelius]

To be fair, I sometimes use tarot to make sense of the world, in a way. But it's not because I believe the cards in themselves are telling me something. It's more of an exercise to take the images that turn up as a prompt to think of the issue in another way. And that could be done with any set of pictures, really.

The other way I use tarot, is to play cards, which annoys my few wiccan friends to no end.

But well, as to being harmless... I know someone who took a set of  tarot cards on board, when working as a sailor. Once the crew saw him laying them out in a game of patience, a lot of them did treat him with another kind of deference. If your belief in these things influences how you look at people, and who to take as an authority, it can make a big difference. And these people can be led, then, by nothing more than some esoteric patter. Which anyone can pick up in about 15 minutes. And that is dangerous.

[oddtail]

To be fair, I sometimes use tarot to make sense of the world, in a way. But it's not because I believe the cards in themselves are telling me something. It's more of an exercise to take the images that turn up as a prompt to think of the issue in another way. And that could be done with any set of pictures, really.

I've heard a lot of people over the years have the same attitude towards Tarot. Essentially "I don't believe cards have any predictive power, but I use them to sort of amateur-psychoanalyse myself".

[Y]

Is it dangerous knowing "your future" if you're going to unconsciously make it so? Another student in high school read my palm once (who might have read up on that subject) and predicted that I'll have 2 relationships, and so I did. But no more after that, yes I'm asexual, though not aro I think. Which are I guess reasons why I'm not actively looking for relationships.

[Gnabberwocky]

Again, if you're sacrificing your use of the scientific method in order to make important decisions (whether you should wear a mask or date someone, for example), your beliefs aren't harmless or casual. You're threatening the mental and physical health of others.

But that's not at all the vibe I'm getting off Willow. If someone came up to her and was like "the alignment of the planets is telling you to punch Clinton in the face" and she looked up and was like "huh, that's actually true," I really doubt she'd do it, because her common sense outweighs her blind belief. Her use of logic, in that case, told her that it was a bad idea.

If your mindset is that you'll agree with completely and follow to the ends of the earth whatever your belief is, yes, it's unhealthy, no matter your belief. But if you're using it to act quickly and decisively on decisions that are both harmless and arbitrary, I still see no reason to stop you.

[sitnspin]

Is it dangerous knowing "your future" if you're going to unconsciously make it so?

Ask Oedipus and MacBeth about that one.

[hedgie]

Oedipus was just a boy who loved his mother.