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Author Topic: Pride Month?  (Read 1058 times)

cmj

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Pride Month?
« on: 01 Jul 2022, 00:00 »

I just now realized... Claire's shirt is the trans pride flag!  Woo!!!   :lol:
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John Allenson

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #1 on: 01 Jul 2022, 05:58 »

And she looks good in it.

I wonder whether there are Robot specific Pride Flags in this world?  Humans who date Robots.  Robots who date Humans.  Robots for Robots.  Breadsexuals. 
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oddtail

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #2 on: 01 Jul 2022, 06:56 »

I wonder whether there are Robot specific Pride Flags in this world?

Given that other than the rainbow flag and the bi flag, most pride flags originated on the Internet in like, the past several years (seriously, I was astonished how new most are, and how quickly people set on specific ones)?

I'd say robots would definitely have their own pride flags. What with being able to access the Internet, potentially, basically by thinking. As opposed to humans who at the very least need a phone.
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Platypodes

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #3 on: 02 Jul 2022, 13:04 »

I really like how somewhere in the background Claire has gone from only being out to a few close friends to wearing a pride shirt at work.  It's uplifting and makes sense for how her life is going (supportive friends, supportive boyfriend, and generally getting a bit more adult confidence as she moves out of her student phase).
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Wombat

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #4 on: 02 Jul 2022, 16:01 »

Given that other than the rainbow flag and the bi flag, most pride flags originated on the Internet in like, the past several years (seriously, I was astonished how new most are, and how quickly people set on specific ones)?
Just going to add on that the trans flag is only around a year newer than the bi flag (and both are a couple decades out from the original rainbow flag). But yes, different pride flags have really multiplied. It can be hard to keep up!

I really like how somewhere in the background Claire has gone from only being out to a few close friends to wearing a pride shirt at work.  It's uplifting and makes sense for how her life is going (supportive friends, supportive boyfriend, and generally getting a bit more adult confidence as she moves out of her student phase).
This is a good observation. I hadn't really thought of it when I first saw the strip-- I was just like, nice, cool shirt. I also wonder how much is on a meta level. In the ten year (TEN YEARS?!) since Claire came out to Marten, society has become much more aware of trans people, and some parts have become pretty accepting. At the same time, it has not been ten years for Claire-- but it still makes sense in-universe, as you said.
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Gyrre

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #5 on: 02 Jul 2022, 18:05 »

On the topic of pride, since most of the forummites are probably more knowledgeable on this than me, is there a hard binary between bein binary and non-binary? {Yes, I'm asking for myself.)
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Wombat

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #6 on: 02 Jul 2022, 18:50 »

On the topic of pride, since most of the forummites are probably more knowledgeable on this than me, is there a hard binary between bein binary and non-binary? {Yes, I'm asking for myself.)
I'd consider moving this discussion to this thread in the Relate section, but I'll reply here to be sure you see it.

To the question, "Is there a hard binary between being binary and non-binary?": In short, no, I don't think so.

I am nonbinary. Whatever is or isn't going on with my gender, I consider it outside of the gender binary. But that isn't the experience for everyone. My friend group, for instance, is almost entirely nonbinary, but the way we experience it is different. One of my friends identifies as transmasc, while another identifies as trans (just trans/transgender, nothing after it), another genderfluid.

Most relevant to your question would probably be the idea of transmasc identity. Transmasc or transmasculine people identify with masculinity, and may or may not identify as male. Similarly, there are transfem(me) or transfeminine people who identify with femininity, and may or may not identify as female.

There are also people who describe themselves as nonbinary women or nonbinary men. I don't personally know anyone who describes themself that way, but they're terms you might look up.

I'm also curious if, in your question, you were thinking "being binary" in the context of being binary trans or as being a binary gender in general.
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Gyrre

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #7 on: 02 Jul 2022, 19:32 »

On the topic of pride, since most of the forummites are probably more knowledgeable on this than me, is there a hard binary between bein binary and non-binary? {Yes, I'm asking for myself.)
I'd consider moving this discussion to this thread in the Relate section, but I'll reply here to be sure you see it.

To the question, "Is there a hard binary between being binary and non-binary?": In short, no, I don't think so.

I am nonbinary. Whatever is or isn't going on with my gender, I consider it outside of the gender binary. But that isn't the experience for everyone. My friend group, for instance, is almost entirely nonbinary, but the way we experience it is different. One of my friends identifies as transmasc, while another identifies as trans (just trans/transgender, nothing after it), another genderfluid.

Most relevant to your question would probably be the idea of transmasc identity. Transmasc or transmasculine people identify with masculinity, and may or may not identify as male. Similarly, there are transfem(me) or transfeminine people who identify with femininity, and may or may not identify as female.

There are also people who describe themselves as nonbinary women or nonbinary men. I don't personally know anyone who describes themself that way, but they're terms you might look up.

I'm also curious if, in your question, you were thinking "being binary" in the context of being binary trans or as being a binary gender in general.

Dead thread. But if the mods choose to move this, I'll graciously acquiesce.

I know I'm not trans. Just not entirely male. I thought I knew myself pretty well, but recent meditations and reevaluations suggest I haven't really thought enough about my gender. Ever since I learned what specifically spivak ptonouns are, it's been nagging at me that 'he/him' isn't as 100% for me as I once thought.
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hedgie

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #8 on: 03 Jul 2022, 12:27 »

For me, it was one of those realisations of what Iíve always known/experienced, but just now got some of the words and such.  But I know that Iíve never been ďone of the guysĒ (except, perhaps on a certain gross (in all senses of the word) anatomical level), and more than just on the surface level.  Iím more comfortable, at least at a deep and connected level around women, but Iím not one of them, either.
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John Allenson

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #9 on: 03 Jul 2022, 21:05 »

For me, I have a severe autoimmune disease and for some reason the haemotologist looked at my chromosomes.  Then they did more tests of my blood and the inside of my mouth.
And that's how I found out I'm Intersex.
(And what a spectacularly FUGLY flag for Intersex!)
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Wombat

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #10 on: 03 Jul 2022, 21:17 »

For me, I have a severe autoimmune disease and for some reason the haemotologist looked at my chromosomes.  Then they did more tests of my blood and the inside of my mouth.
And that's how I found out I'm Intersex.
(And what a spectacularly FUGLY flag for Intersex!)
Haha, I don't think the intersex flag is THAT bad! But to each their own.
A few years back, I went to see a new doctor, PCP but specialized in LGBTQ+, and he looked at me and was like, "So, have you ever wondered if you're intersex?" Then he did some blood tests and blah blah blah, told me I have some hormone thing which can technically be considered an intersex condition. I considered identifying with it for a while, but never really did, and now I think it might have been the wrong diagnosis anyway.
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Gyrre

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #11 on: 04 Jul 2022, 02:59 »

For me, it was one of those realisations of what Iíve always known/experienced, but just now got some of the words and such.  But I know that Iíve never been ďone of the guysĒ (except, perhaps on a certain gross (in all senses of the word) anatomical level), and more than just on the surface level.  Iím more comfortable, at least at a deep and connected level around women, but Iím not one of them, either.

In retrospect, mine's a similar case to the 'now having the word(s)'. But learning the word is what sparked the 6 month long self-reflection and reexamining something I thought I'd already sorted out[1].

[1] I pride myself in knowing myself, and I strongly encourage others to learn themselves and self-examine their psyche.
EDIT: And I chronically overthink.
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hedgie

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #12 on: 04 Jul 2022, 09:15 »

In retrospect, mine's a similar case to the 'now having the word(s)'. But learning the word is what sparked the 6 month long self-reflection and reexamining something I thought I'd already sorted out[1].

Heh, I think that too much time in the goth subculture delayed things for me, particularly knowing cis and largely het dudes who wore makeup and skirts or dresses on a regular basis.  I assumed that I was one of them, albeit somewhat more on the heteroromantic asexual spectrum for the longest time, and still wasnít entirely comfortable.

Edit:

(And what a spectacularly FUGLY flag for Intersex!)

Ye gads, yes.  But itís still a flag, and IIRC, that means having a country.
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Pilchard123

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #13 on: 04 Jul 2022, 13:18 »

Isn't the relationship country => flag, not flag => country? "if P then Q" does not mean "if not P then not Q" or "if Q then P", though "if not P then not Q" is equivalent to "if Q then P". Making P "has a flag" and Q "has a country", then "no flag, no country" leads to "country implies flag" but allows for "flag, but no country".
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hedgie

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #14 on: 04 Jul 2022, 13:57 »

Sadly true.  But it least itís a starting point.
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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #15 on: 04 Jul 2022, 14:07 »

I know I'm not trans. Just not entirely male.

I mean, strictly speaking anyone who does not 100% align with their assigned birth gender is trans. "trans" is a broad term and it doesn't mean just binary men and women. Any sort of non-binary person (and "not entirely male" certainly qualifies) is a kind of a trans person, by most people's reckoning.

That being said, I also know that some non-binary people do not like the label "trans", and if that's you, I respect that. But I think a lot of people mentally default to gender binary when they hear "trans", so I thought I'd point this out.

Generally, anyone not cis is trans, by definition.
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Gyrre

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #16 on: 04 Jul 2022, 19:11 »

I know I'm not trans. Just not entirely male.

I mean, strictly speaking anyone who does not 100% align with their assigned birth gender is trans. "trans" is a broad term and it doesn't mean just binary men and women. Any sort of non-binary person (and "not entirely male" certainly qualifies) is a kind of a trans person, by most people's reckoning.

That being said, I also know that some non-binary people do not like the label "trans", and if that's you, I respect that. But I think a lot of people mentally default to gender binary when they hear "trans", so I thought I'd point this out.

Generally, anyone not cis is trans, by definition.

Ah.
I had not heard that before. And I'd be willing to bet money that's something that still gets argued about (at least ftom what I've seen in other spaces).
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John Allenson

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #17 on: 04 Jul 2022, 21:36 »

Yes, that is something that get's argued a lot.   :-o

As a Intersex/non-binary person I used to participate in Trans spaces.  It was always made abundantly clear to me that I was (at best) tolerated as an outsider.  Due to testosterone I present as AMAB.  Internally, it's more complicated than that. 

I do not call myself either Trans or Cis and having someone outside my body assigning me an identity feels more like erasure than inclusion.  It's feels similar to when someone "explains" to a transman that they're actually "just a butch woman".  I don't think the majority of people doing it are malevolent
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Gyrre

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #18 on: 05 Jul 2022, 01:14 »

Yeesh.


Not sure what to say that you don't already know about folks trying to stuff others into boxes is crappy no matter how well intentioned. Other than that, all I can do is give my condolences for the pain.
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Oenone

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #19 on: 05 Jul 2022, 05:57 »

Yes, that is something that get's argued a lot.   :-o

As a Intersex/non-binary person I used to participate in Trans spaces.  It was always made abundantly clear to me that I was (at best) tolerated as an outsider.  Due to testosterone I present as AMAB.  Internally, it's more complicated than that. 

I do not call myself either Trans or Cis and having someone outside my body assigning me an identity feels more like erasure than inclusion.  It's feels similar to when someone "explains" to a transman that they're actually "just a butch woman".  I don't think the majority of people doing it are malevolent

They are certainly quite rude
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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #20 on: 05 Jul 2022, 07:08 »

And I'd be willing to bet money that's something that still gets argued about (at least ftom what I've seen in other spaces).

Well, yeah. Both binary trans people and non-binary people have a variety of views on this.

Generally, at least on the Internet (or parts of it I frequent), the consensus seems to be that non-binary people absolutely fall under the "trans" umbrella if they themselves feel it's applicable.

Personally, I implicitly include non-binary people whenever I use the word "trans", but I also do sometimes make it explicit that I'm referring to not just binary trans people by using the phrase "trans and/or non-binary people". That one covers non-cis people regardless of what definitions they personally use.
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Wombat

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #21 on: 05 Jul 2022, 19:10 »

As a trans nonbinary person, yeah, my definition of trans is basically "anyone who is not cis who wants to identify as trans." There are a variety of reasons someone might not identify as trans, some more valid (there's probably a better word, but) than others, and it's ultimately up to the individual.

When I first started identifying as nonbinary, I didn't identify as trans because I felt like my experiences weren't "enough" and that I would be coopting others' struggles if I claimed trans identity. I also tried to explain it in a semantics-argument type way that focused more on how words were formed than how they were used. Anyway, my reasons were bullshit. In part because of that, I do encourage anyone who's new to identifying as not cis but not trans (and interested in exploring) to think deeply about why they don't identify as trans. And if they come out of that still not feeling trans as a label, cool. And if that changes down the road, or changes back and forth a few times, also cool.

When I use "trans," I also automatically include trans nonbinary people, like how when I say "women," I include trans women and cis women. It bothers me when I see people assume "trans" means binary trans people or use it that way. That's usually cis people I see that from, even in spaces that a generally pretty understanding. Like, it's happened here (not this thread here, this forum in general), in the DoA comment section, etc. There, the person I was talking to said there should be a way to distinguish whether you're referring to binary trans people or nonbinary people, and, it's like, there is! Say "binary trans people" if you're trying to make that distinction. But often it's not as necessary or helpful as some people might think.

I appreciate the phrase "trans and/or nonbinary people" for seeking to be inclusive (though I still know people who identify outside of that), and with the "and/or," I think it's good. I think some people come away from it with the impression that nonbinary is inherently a separate thing, but there's only so much you can do to curb misunderstanding. I don't like when I see "trans or nonbinary"  because while I know that the "inclusive or" can exist, I think people default to assuming the "exclusive or." (God, are there other terms for that? It's been so long since I studied that stuff.)
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Gyrre

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Re: Pride Month?
« Reply #22 on: 06 Jul 2022, 03:48 »

The best analogy I can think of goes; if 'male' were a building, I'd be sat straddling one of the patio rails.
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