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Author Topic: My music vocabulary...  (Read 13202 times)

Alienated

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My music vocabulary...
« on: 16 Feb 2005, 14:55 »

Can someone please enlighten me as to actually what is Indie or who actually is considered a Hipster??questionmark
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yelley

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« Reply #1 on: 16 Feb 2005, 14:56 »

what happened to the sticky about this?
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blindsuperhero

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« Reply #2 on: 16 Feb 2005, 14:57 »

It died a long long time ago
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scuzzle

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« Reply #3 on: 16 Feb 2005, 15:02 »

well, i _think_ that indie represents the anti-media, more grassroots musical theme, where the emphasis may be more or less....homley. more earthy and realistic. making music as opposed to image. while i agree image will still be important, its not the emphasis of the music, hence its popularity. while this definitely defines the type of music for me, it doesnt suit others choice of definition, so dont make me a martyr here people. make me a shining example of someone with an opinion ;)
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #4 on: 16 Feb 2005, 16:11 »

Isn't indie that bland and boring stuff sorta between pop and decent music?

WARNING: Statement may have been intended in jest!
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Keith Decent

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« Reply #5 on: 16 Feb 2005, 18:05 »

Well, it gets complex, as I guess all categorization of music/art does...

I'll give it a shot:

Indie, having come from "independent," was used, to my earliest memories, to describe bands that were on underground labels, and were generally making "college music."  That is to say, music that is typically free of the constraints of commericalism and are of a higher standard of creativity and message.  The first "indie bands" I had ever heard of were along the lines of The Pixies, Sonic Youth, and Pavement.  

These days, it seems that Indie has been a little co-opted, as most tags are, to be specifically about a certain sound of music.  Semi-experimental, off-kilter, or generally anti-what-was-on-the-radio-two-years-ago music seems to be what's categorized as Indie these days.  It has been used to describe bands like Interpol, Arcade Fire, Fiery Furnaces, Yeah Yeah Yeahs and tons more.  It seems to be spreading into the mainstream a bit more, which provides people with a connundrum.

Can Indie music be mainstream? Can an Indie band be on a major label? The old answer to this is no. Under the former definition of Indie, it was not feasible to fit under the title and be on a major, or be really "mainstream mtv" popular.  However, as the word has come to define more of a sound and ethos than it used to, it seems that it can be mainstream (see Interpol) and/or on a major label.

It's kind of what happened to the term "Punk."  Basically, in the 70's no punk band would ever be considered wildly mainstream popular.  The music was about being different, and doing what society warned you not to do. It was about defiance.  However, as we know, the term "punk" came to represent a sound, a style of dress, and an attitude towards authority (see: your parents), and no longer was exempt from blatent commericalism and "dime a dozen" genre whore bands.



I hope that helps.  i will refrain for now on ranting about what a Hipster is, I'm sure someone else has their opinion.  You've heard enough out of me here.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #6 on: 16 Feb 2005, 18:14 »

Hipsters be them folk in 'dem trucker caps dat listen to dat indie music, ain't they?

Or am I over-simplifying? Is it possible to be hipster without an iPod, indie music tastes and expensive Jeans?
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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DeathrockZombie

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« Reply #7 on: 16 Feb 2005, 18:20 »

I think Decent nailed the definition of Indie. I'll just copy paste it whenever people ask me what's up and claim it's mine. Wahahaha

~ Basim
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El Opium

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« Reply #8 on: 16 Feb 2005, 20:28 »

Test to see if you're a hipster:
http://www.hipsterhandbook.com
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Alienated

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« Reply #9 on: 16 Feb 2005, 21:30 »

I think I'm beginning to understand Indie. I think the reference to what punk used to be compared to what it has become helped a lot because I have a friend who is maybe late 20's who used to be considered actual "punk". On the weekends they would fight rival "punk" groups and stick it to the man whenever possible as to now in which they just dress in a certain way and listen to crappy music that sounds a certain way.  So a simplified discription of Indie would be more-or-less a group that had an experimental and/or independent sound. Now those sounds have become less independent and more groups sound the same so they are all considered "Indie" even if they no longer have an independent sound of their own.

...still a little confused as to hipster...

Sidebar Question: How did you all learn the technical classifications of musical sounds? My brother has often ridiculed me for not knowing the proper term used to describe my musical taste and I wonder where people like yourselves, who seem to know a little, obtained your knowledge?
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El Opium

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« Reply #10 on: 16 Feb 2005, 21:54 »

I read allmusic.com like crazy, just jumping through entries and absorbing as much as I could. I've also listened to a lot of different stuff (I Have close to 300 CDs, LPs+Cassettes) and I read several different online zines.
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Keith Decent

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« Reply #11 on: 16 Feb 2005, 23:27 »

As far as knowing how to talk about different sounds, i typically just make up words, for real.

I guess I can delve as far as Hipster defiitions go.

Hipsters came to my attention a few years ago, when I realized the typically dry "Indie Rock scene" had been getting a bit more crowded.  There were a lot more people coming to certain shows, and talking about certain bands, bands that no one else was really "supposed to know about." This was cool and all, more the merrier, in my mind.  But alot of people started to really hate on the newcomers, and sometimes for good reason.

Like all people, Hipsters fall within a spectrum.

Some, are just people, like many of us here, who enjoy underground music, and Indie rock, etc. But they tend to take it too far, and get really competetive with their knowledge.  They say things like "I liked their old stuff better, before they got mainstream/sucky/popular/etc."

Some people, take it into their personal style so much, they dress in ways that are supposed to be ironic (much like punk was supposed t turn away from pop culture, Hipsters are supposed to co-opt it, and make it their own, thus turning something serious into something ridiculous) For example, Guys wearing girl pants that are really tight. Or wearing a trucker hat because that's what "rednecks"wear. Or having a cell phone attatchment that is really huge and clunky, because "tiny sexy phones are really becoming cliche." That was alot of the original thinking behind alot of the style, over the top things or rare finds that can be used tomake fun of pop culture.  However, alot of people misread the meesage or ignore it, and follow the trends.  They tend to be the most annoying hipsters.

They're the ones who don't know what they're talking about, but spout off about their Indie Rock "Cred" anyway.  They give each other "scene points" when they do something or know something that is a hard fact to find or some such crap.  They spout off about the philosophy behind their style without even really caring, then condemn others for not knowing/caring as much as they do. They go to shows that they hear of on Pitchfork, but not really good ones that aren't.  However, once the band you tried to get them to go see IS on Pitchfork.  They tell all their friends about how they knew all about them before, mainly because YOU mentioned them once. It's all really annoying.

To be wayy more concise, they are the new ruiners of a once private, underground scene.  They have succeeded in turning an anti-pop culture movement into pop culture, and now they don't stop. They over dress, and over think everything they do, because if they don't their peers will crucify them.  Most of all, they are really really irritating to be next to on the subway.

So everyone's definition of Hipsters falls somewhere on the spectrum, depending on their tolerance for BS I guess.  There's much more, but you can go up to the hipster's handbook link someone posted above and check it all ut.

Oh, and a true hipster will almost never admit they are one, because it's become so much of a derogatory term now, unless they are so far removed from the underground scene that they don't even know that much.

sorry to rant again, but I deal with these people every day. Hope that helps.
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Keith Decent

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« Reply #12 on: 16 Feb 2005, 23:30 »

Quote from: DeathrockZombie
I think Decent nailed the definition of Indie. I'll just copy paste it whenever people ask me what's up and claim it's mine. Wahahaha

~ Basim



Feel free, I'll probably see it somewhere and be like, "Man. That guy is So right! Well said!"

cause I'm dumb.
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scuzzle

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« Reply #13 on: 16 Feb 2005, 23:33 »

*dies laughing* sorry guys, im just a bit drunk.....
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lofin

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« Reply #14 on: 17 Feb 2005, 07:55 »

Quote from: Keith Decent

I guess I can delve as far as Hipster defiitions go.

Hipsters came to my attention a few years ago, when I realized the typically dry "Indie Rock scene" had been getting a bit more crowded.  There were a lot more people coming to certain shows, and talking about certain bands, bands that no one else was really "supposed to know about." This was cool and all, more the merrier, in my mind.  But alot of people started to really hate on the newcomers, and sometimes for good reason.

Some, are just people, like many of us here, who enjoy underground music, and Indie rock, etc. But they tend to take it too far, and get really competetive with their knowledge.  They say things like "I liked their old stuff better, before they got mainstream/sucky/popular/etc."


If you look at the "underground scene" in a city, you realize that most of the bands are connected in some way.  Members of this band play in another, bands break up and new ones are formed with the same people in the "underground scene."  These people that make the music also know all about the other obscure bands their friends play in.  These people seem to have the most knowledge of the scene but i don't think that they are hipsters.

Quote from: Keith Decent

Some people, take it into their personal style so much, they dress in ways that are supposed to be ironic (much like punk was supposed t turn away from pop culture, Hipsters are supposed to co-opt it, and make it their own, thus turning something serious into something ridiculous) For example, Guys wearing girl pants that are really tight. Or wearing a trucker hat because that's what "rednecks"wear. Or having a cell phone attatchment that is really huge and clunky, because "tiny sexy phones are really becoming cliche." That was alot of the original thinking behind alot of the style, over the top things or rare finds that can be used tomake fun of pop culture.  However, alot of people misread the meesage or ignore it, and follow the trends.  They tend to be the most annoying hipsters.

They're the ones who don't know what they're talking about, but spout off about their Indie Rock "Cred" anyway.  They give each other "scene points" when they do something or know something that is a hard fact to find or some such crap.  They spout off about the philosophy behind their style without even really caring, then condemn others for not knowing/caring as much as they do. They go to shows that they hear of on Pitchfork, but not really good ones that aren't.  However, once the band you tried to get them to go see IS on Pitchfork.  They tell all their friends about how they knew all about them before, mainly because YOU mentioned them once. It's all really annoying.

To be wayy more concise, they are the new ruiners of a once private, underground scene.  They have succeeded in turning an anti-pop culture movement into pop culture, and now they don't stop. They over dress, and over think everything they do, because if they don't their peers will crucify them.  Most of all, they are really really irritating to be next to on the subway.

Appropriating mass culture isn't something new at all.  Every "non-mainstream scene" has done it.  (grunge had flannel, punks had work boots, etc...)

"[T]he new ruiners of a once private, underground scene."?  Wow, can't believe you had the audacity to say that.  This music isn't yours, no matter how much you identify with it.  You don't own the "scene."  Anyone can listen to music and wear whatever clothes they want.  I just joined this forum and it seems that in your attempt to define hipster you've simply described you.   The gross over-generalizations and pretentious comments  in this topic are disheartening.

Quote from: Keith Decent
 
So everyone's definition of Hipsters falls somewhere on the spectrum, depending on their tolerance for BS I guess.  There's much more, but you can go up to the hipster's handbook link someone posted above and check it all ut.

Oh, and a true hipster will almost never admit they are one, because it's become so much of a derogatory term now, unless they are so far removed from the underground scene that they don't even know that much.

How can anyone be removed from the scene and still be considered to be something (hipster) that implies they are part of the scene?  Your arugment here is tripe.

So I guess hipsters are people that know a lot about music that they listen too.  They wont admit they are hipsters unless they don't know what hipster means and that implies they don't know anything so they couldn't be a hipster anyway.
And likewise, all mexicans smell bad and all men from texas are cowboys.

-lofin
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Cadete

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« Reply #15 on: 17 Feb 2005, 09:14 »

Quote from: lofin

This music isn't yours, no matter how much you identify with it.  You don't own the "scene."  Anyone can listen to music and wear whatever clothes they want.


I agree with this statement, if you think something is good why can't other people have the chance of knowing about and liking it too? There seems to be a big "us and them" mentality among the different sub-cultures/tribes/whatever-you-call-them that shifts the focus from the music that originated them to the social status that seems to ride on it.

I perceive the hipsters as the snobs of indie music, claiming they are better and cooler than others.
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muffy

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« Reply #16 on: 17 Feb 2005, 09:23 »

Quote
I perceive the hipsters as the snobs of indie music, claiming they are better and cooler than others.


Exactly.

I have a theory that it comes down to the fact that 10 years ago, indie kids were at the bottom of the social hierarchy, the kids who got picked on etc., so when they started going to clubs and gigs, instead of being happy that there were other like-minded souls, they either went out of their way to prove their 'lesser' social standing to maintain outsider status  (see mostly - emos) or finally wanted to be top dog for a change, so did that by owning every Pavement B-side in the world to prove that they were cooler and put other kids down as a reaction to the times they were mocked.
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Keith Decent

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« Reply #17 on: 17 Feb 2005, 11:45 »

Sorry, I got a bit of explaining to do.

lofin:
I wasn't trying to make that statement sound the way it did (about being the ruiners of a once private scene). Truth is, I personally don't give a damn.  Scenes change, people come and go, such is life.  I said those couple of lines to see if I could capture the animosity many people feel toward Hipsters, which is real and intense, especially in the circles I tend to travel.

I wasn't talking about the scene getting more crowded in a negative way, I was just stating a fact. I even said that I felt that the more people there were, the better off we were.

The scene here in NY is HUGE.  There are bands that play with one another, but not really that many.  It's hard to become truly "familiar" with it at all. This is where I come from, this is how I think. When I talked about bands no one was "supposed to know about," I meant that they were known, by most people in the scene, but it was an example of the pretentiousness of the hipsters to try to gain some footing over everyone else by finding a band in their own scene they didn't know about. I guess the most obscure of the obscure.

I am aware that all sub cultures appropriate mass culture.  However, Hipsters seem, to me, to have a large part of their style devoted to it, as well as a large part of their attitude.

How can anyone be removed from the scene and still be part of it?
Easy, they watch ashton kuthcer on MTV, listen to major label Indie rock, and hear the word hipster applied to people who wear truckers hats, like ashton, and themselves.  So they start calling themselves a hipster.  This seems to be more of a highschool thing. Not that I am insulting high schoolers, but we were all a bit naive then.

Hipsters are not just people that knw alot about their favorite music.  They are people who compete with one another to gain more knowledge than their peers, which, as I said is only part of the overall "generalization" of what a hipster is.

yes, it's a generalization, because that's what was asked for, so that's what I gave. Not every hipster is an asshole, and not every asshole is a hipster.

Cadete:
You're absolutely right, they are the snobs of indie music.  I was trying to be more verbose and explain further why people seem to loathe hipsters. As I said in my  original post, and above, the way I see it, the more the merrier in regards to the scene.

I guess mostly, I don't buy into 99% of what I was describing, like I said, I don't give a damn one way or the other about a person's personal style or choices.  If they're into the same music as me (or better yet, the music I make) then they're cool, to a big extent, in my book.
Sorry for the misunderstandings.
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Keith Decent

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« Reply #18 on: 17 Feb 2005, 11:47 »

Quote from: muffy


Exactly.

I have a theory that it comes down to the fact that 10 years ago, indie kids were at the bottom of the social hierarchy, the kids who got picked on etc., so when they started going to clubs and gigs, instead of being happy that there were other like-minded souls, they either went out of their way to prove their 'lesser' social standing to maintain outsider status  (see mostly - emos) or finally wanted to be top dog for a change, so did that by owning every Pavement B-side in the world to prove that they were cooler and put other kids down as a reaction to the times they were mocked.


Ha ha, so in other words, they went to college?
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lofin

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« Reply #19 on: 17 Feb 2005, 12:58 »

Yeah, sorry my reply was kinda... I dunno, jerky almost.  The more I think about this idea of hipster, the more I realize we are attempting to use one term to describe two types of people (each with different motives).  Once I smoke more I might be able to pen a more complete response.

-lofin

Edit, has anyone read the GYBE stuff about being against all that is multi-national?  Some would argue that they are ostentatious hypocrites becasue they were re-released on kranky records (i think, but too lazy to check).  Basically the argument is if you are on a multi-national label, you are creating the problem with music (commercialization, ie, whenever Thom Yorke sings about big government or big business it is dismissed as tongue in cheek).  You can't be against the machine and part of the machine at the same time.  If  you guys think this will hijack the thread then repost it or drop it.  It kinda ties in with the elitism associated with "hipsters."
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Alienated

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« Reply #20 on: 17 Feb 2005, 14:12 »

It's all beginning to make a lot more since. The reason that it could have been difficult for me to understand at first is because I'm still in highschool and the cliche's are not always easy to define. Most of the people belonging to a cliche  don't know anything about it they just dress they same way and listen to the music even if they don't like it. I guess that is just highschool though...can't wait to get out of that place.
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Jooooosh

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« Reply #21 on: 20 Feb 2005, 17:01 »

I always thought a hipster to be someone who acts/dresses a certain way or listens to type of music, because s/he thinks they will be cool for it. I dont think wether they like the music has anything to do with them being a hipster.
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Alyonva

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« Reply #22 on: 20 Feb 2005, 17:55 »

I think you'll find a whole stratus of definitions when it comes to music labels - it's sort of tempting to dismiss it all with a wave of the hand and a, "meh. who cares."

For the sake of wasting time, however...

Hipster in the context of people who read internet comics will often refer to an indie kid (or an emo kid, I guess) who is very trend-savvy and very conscious of their social status in terms of being an indie kid.

I always knew hipsters to be the same thing as scenesters - people who are very visibly active in the club/bar scene and very attractive/well-liked. In Detroit, for example, a lot of hip-hop kids are scenesters. (I hear S.F. is similar.) They are typically well-dressed, articulate, and very self-conscious about how others percieve them.

Now as for indie... indie as a musical genre I see being similar to what happened with alternative. In theory it's just a term to define music that is not on a large corporate label, but it's always been more secular than that. Noone called Naked City indie. Noone called Yas Supreme indie. Indie has always been (mostly) white people playing music in some form rooted in pop-culture. I mean because really - you could have called Otomo Yoshihide* or Karlheinz Stockhausen alternative back in 1992, but noone did. Alternative was (questionably) non-commercial white rock music.

Really it boils down to the fact that 99% of the time when someone says indie or hipster, you can assume they mean it by the most narrow definition. maybe it isn't open-minded but when I hear indie, I think of cuffed jeans and mopeds. When I hear hipster, I think of hot 20-something alcholics.

*i have no idea of otomo yoshihide was around in 1992, honestly
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MrKneebone

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« Reply #23 on: 20 Feb 2005, 20:17 »

I kinda though that  hipster = pretentiously alternative-cool.

I don't really get "emo" though.   Especially as a music genre.   What exactly is it?   I get the feeling that it's more of a personal style, than a music style.   It's just too diverse.   I don't understand how Bright Eyes and Jimmy Eat World can both be of the same music genre - or have I just heard these bands incorrectly labelled?


As far as "indie" goes - I was of a similar impression to Alyonva - bands who aren't on a major label - and are "independant" artists.   Normally they do slightly more intelligent/poetic music, that's not exactly mainstream, but not too far removed either.  Such that it could potentially become popular, and gain them a major label deal.   Consequently there have been some "indie" bands that have become successful, and blurred that line between mainstream and indie, rendering it a musical genre rather than a label status thing.  

On a slightly related note, I was in fits of laughter when U2 won a grammy for best "alternative" album in the early 90's - i think it was for "zooropa."
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Jooooosh

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« Reply #24 on: 20 Feb 2005, 20:20 »

EMO is basically the same thing, no matter what band. It is quite simply this= My girlfriend dumped me X nuber of years ago for some one who wasnt a bitch,and i am too big of a pansie to go get a new girl so i think ill pick up guitar, play a few power cords, and every song i write for the next 10 years will be about her.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #25 on: 20 Feb 2005, 20:25 »

Ah, this brings happy memories of that level in one of the Emogames when you have to venture into the vault of ex-girlfriends and destroy the ex-girlfriend who made you emo in the first place, thus empowering you in some way I can't remember. All I really remember about the Emogames is you got to kill every celebrity imaginable, and that the final boss in the last one was a mutant three-headed GW Bush.

Emogames > Emo
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

mAlice aforeThought

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« Reply #26 on: 20 Feb 2005, 21:08 »

where can i find these emogames?

...and i don't even know which öne ov my exes made me emo.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #27 on: 20 Feb 2005, 21:15 »

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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Kai

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« Reply #28 on: 20 Feb 2005, 22:40 »

Emogame is hilariously funny.


and dammit, now I'm going to be playing this for an hour because I have nothign else to do.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Alyonva

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« Reply #29 on: 20 Feb 2005, 23:03 »

I'm not sure what the big deal is, personally. I saw The Promise Ring at some music festival and they sounded alright to me. No worse than Macha (they played before) or Guided By Voices (they played after) ... and while some emo bands might be pretty inconsolably mopey I don't feel that their content is any more syrupy and contrived than punk music, or metal, or whatever really. I think the real issue is that musicians are, by and large (exceptions being Tom Waits and David Byrne), really fucking stupid.

Their lyrics will naturally be baseless and vapid. You should ignore what they are saying.


p.s. sorry mos def is also not stupid
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muffy

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« Reply #30 on: 21 Feb 2005, 02:34 »

Quote from: pintsizeshomie
EMO is basically the same thing, no matter what band. It is quite simply this= My girlfriend dumped me X nuber of years ago for some one who wasnt a bitch,and i am too big of a pansie to go get a new girl so i think ill pick up guitar, play a few power cords, and every song i write for the next 10 years will be about her.


Ahhh, Chris Carrabba's career condensed into one short paragraph.. :P

And Emogame actually owns me. It's tragic. Though I'm still traumatised by the Anna Nicole Smith part...
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Kai

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« Reply #31 on: 21 Feb 2005, 09:33 »

Quote from: muffy


And Emogame actually owns me. It's tragic. Though I'm still traumatised by the Anna Nicole Smith part...


I was hoping to remove that entire thing from my memories. I mean, the ninja turtles lived there.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

muffy

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My music vocabulary...
« Reply #32 on: 21 Feb 2005, 10:00 »

I know. The Turtles (along with Thomas the Tank Engine) were my chilhood heroes.
Apparently, the people who own the turtles took offence at the usage,so they've since been changed to the 'Ninjizzle Turtles'...damn copyrights...
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