Jeph Jacques's comics discussion forums

  • 04 Jul 2022, 18:15
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: explaining straightedge  (Read 38237 times)

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:05 »

sooo, i noticed in a thread earlier to this (musicians you have an irrational hatred for) that alot of you REALLY didn't like straightedge, or straightedge kids, or straightedge bands.  you seemed to have a LOT of misconceptions, probably due to having to deal with BAD BAD sxe kids.  weeeelll, heres your chance to learn about it from someone who knows.  i'm 23 years old, i'm straightedge and have been for five years now,  i am in a crew (x24x out of pheonix, az), i'm into hardcore, i'm vegan, and i don't hate anyone, really.  i can understand people really not knowing about it, especially if the only sxe kids they've met are fifteen and not really into the life.  so, ask me questions.  i'll answer them for you, as best i can.  i'm not the sxe ambassador or anything, i'm just trying to help people understand me and my friends a little better.
Logged

Patatat

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #1 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:06 »

So what you are saying is you're a moron?

Edit:Sorry that was rude, but really I couldn't help it.


My question is...why don't you eat choclate, or fucking drink pop!

Why can't you be like how straight edge was started out! You know instead of taking it to the fucking extreme and being fucking idiots about it.

If you don't know how straight edge used to be, it used to be just staying away from hardcore drugs. They'd still drink, and get down.
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #2 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:07 »

Quote from: Patatat
So what you are saying is you're a moron?


I respect and admire you. *hands you a flame retardent suit and a small book about tolerance*
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #3 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:15 »

Quote from: Patatat
So what you are saying is you're a moron?

Edit:Sorry that was rude, but really I couldn't help it.


My question is...why don't you eat choclate, or fucking drink pop!

Why can't you be like how straight edge was started out! You know instead of taking it to the fucking extreme and being fucking idiots about it.

If you don't know how straight edge used to be, it used to be just staying away from hardcore drugs. They'd still drink, and get down.


ok, well, first off, i don't drink pop because i'm allergic to corn syrup.  my friends drink pop though, and i LOOOVE coffee.  as for chocolate, i was actually eating semi-sweet (vegan) chocolate chips straight from the bag this afternoon.  so, basically, that makes no sense.  and, i would like to point out that i'm being pretty reasonable, and not attacking or detracting from anyone, so please keep the insults out of this.

secondly, well, my personal reason...is personal.  i don't drink.  i don't smoke/do drugs.  i don't sleep with any girl i meet.  that's straightedge.  and how it "used  to be" doesn't matter, because that's how it is now.  

ok, next question?
Logged

a pack of wolves

  • William Gibson's Babydaddy
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,291
explaining straightedge
« Reply #4 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:23 »

Quote from: Patatat
If you don't know how straight edge used to be, it used to be just staying away from hardcore drugs. They'd still drink, and get down.


No, being straight edge has always been about abstaining from recreational drugs. There were some people in early bands who were/said they were (however you want to cut it) edge and didn't, but the idea was always abstinance really for those who made it into a movement/lifestyle (in other words, not Ian Mackaye).

A question then... what the hell does a crew do, and where did you shop for it?
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

Patatat

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #5 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:24 »

I wasn't trying to offend you that was a joke. Which I didn't care to put a Just Kidding into.


And, thats odd. Because according to the "COURAGE CREW" (aka royal fucktards) you're not straight edge, if you have caffeine in your system. Nothing that alters your mind.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #6 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:32 »

haha.  i love good clean fun.  as for MY crew, we just basically keep a watch on our scene.  we try to keep bad people out, and we protect any hardcore kid that needs it.  ANY hardcore kid, sxe or not.  that's what we try to do.  we don't always succeed, and we do have our detractors, but i think in the end, we do a lot of good.  meh, i'm kinda sentimental.


Quote from: a pack of wolves
Quote from: Patatat
If you don't know how straight edge used to be, it used to be just staying away from hardcore drugs. They'd still drink, and get down.


No, being straight edge has always been about abstaining from recreational drugs. There were some people in early bands who were/said they were (however you want to cut it) edge and didn't, but the idea was always abstinance really for those who made it into a movement/lifestyle (in other words, not Ian Mackaye).

A question then... what the hell does a crew do, and where did you shop for it?
Logged

a pack of wolves

  • William Gibson's Babydaddy
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,291
explaining straightedge
« Reply #7 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:33 »

So how do you define a 'bad' person then?
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

Patatat

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #8 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:36 »

You guys should meet the courage crew, they do just the opposite.

They give the scene round here a bad name.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #9 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:38 »

Quote from: Patatat
I wasn't trying to offend you that was a joke. Which I didn't care to put a Just Kidding into.


And, thats odd. Because according to the "COURAGE CREW" (aka royal fucktards) you're not straight edge, if you have caffeine in your system. Nothing that alters your mind.


ok, ok, sorry.  look, you seem to have a LOT of anger towards sxe kids.  did something happen to you?  it sounds like you had a run in with some of them that didn't really end well.

as for courage crew, well, that's their definition.  they're a little more hardline.  but it's just ONE definition of sxe.  the main tenants of no drinking, no smoking/drugs, and no promiscous sex are the important ones.  i have friends that don't ingest caffeine or take over the counter drugs.  and i respect that decision, just as they respect my decision to continue drinking caffeine and taking tylenol.  it's really all about choice.  

and i would like to point out that i have a few friends in courage crew.  theyre nice guys.  we disagree on a lot of points, but we respect each other.  cool, huh?:)
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #10 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:38 »

Quote from: Patatat
You guys should meet the courage crew, they do just the opposite.

They give the scene round here a bad name.


where are you from?
Logged

Ozymandias

  • Older than Moses
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,363
explaining straightedge
« Reply #11 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:39 »

I don't even know what you people are talking about, but for some reason, I feel the need to punch a Mormon now.
Logged
You are 9/11.
You are the terrorist.

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #12 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:41 »

Quote from: a pack of wolves
So how do you define a 'bad' person then?


anyone who starts a fight, or beats someone up, for no reason.  anyone who tries to make the scene a hostile place for other people.  it's kind of subjective, and we do take it on a case by case basis.  a good example would be if we saw a couple of kids square off one on one, we don't get involved.  but if we see five kids trying to jump one kid, we jump in and put a stop to it as quickly as possible.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #13 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:42 »

Quote from: Ozymandias
I don't even know what you people are talking about, but for some reason, I feel the need to punch a Mormon now.


haha.  yeah.  salt lake city is the beginning of most of our problems. a lot of the violence, and hardline attitude comes from that city.  i have a few friends from there, but for the most part, slc kids really piss me off.  theyre very close minded.
Logged

a pack of wolves

  • William Gibson's Babydaddy
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,291
explaining straightedge
« Reply #14 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:45 »

Okay, so you stop beatings happening. But 'it's kind of subjective, and we do take it on a case by case basis'? No offence, but who made you guys the official scene police? And why not stop a fight if only two people are involved? It's still violence.
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

Patatat

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #15 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:47 »

Quote from: 24_hour_revenge_therapy
Quote from: Patatat
You guys should meet the courage crew, they do just the opposite.

They give the scene round here a bad name.


where are you from?


Michigan...
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #16 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:49 »

Quote from: a pack of wolves
Okay, so you stop beatings happening. But 'it's kind of subjective, and we do take it on a case by case basis'? No offence, but who made you guys the official scene police? And why not stop a fight if only two people are involved? It's still violence.


well, i'm not sure how it is where you are, but unfortuanetly, the scene in pheonix is kinda crappy right now.  lots of shitty venues, with shady owners, who REFUSE to hire security.  who makes us the scene police?  well, we do, because someone has to.  as for stopping a one on one fight, well, we make them go outside and deal with it.  but it's not really our problem.  if two idiots want to pound each other senseless in the parking lot, let them.  i'm gonna listen to the band.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #17 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:51 »

Quote from: Patatat
Quote from: 24_hour_revenge_therapy
Quote from: Patatat
You guys should meet the courage crew, they do just the opposite.

They give the scene round here a bad name.


where are you from?


Michigan...


well, i grew up in cincinnati, the base of their power. and, yeah, they used to SUCK.  i'm not sure what it's like in michigan, but in cincinnati, they've changed.  a LOT.  they've kicked out a lot of the kids that started unnecassary violence, and pulled the rest in on a tight reign.  yeah, they've got a long way to go to fix things, but theyre trying.
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #18 on: 15 Apr 2005, 22:56 »

Quote from: Ozymandias
I don't even know what you people are talking about, but for some reason, I feel the need to punch a Mormon now.


I get that all the time.

Straight edge is, y'know, respectable and all. But I'm kinda glad it hasn't really spread to riound where I live. I don't mind your original 'Don't Smoke, Don't Drink, Don't Fuck' crowd (though I only tick one X through choice, I don't smoke and never will), that's fine. Veganism I'm less keen on, especially militant veganism of the type put about by Earth Crisis and so forth (I'm a former Hunt Sab, but I firmly believe that even talking about placing the life of an animal over the life of a human is deeply, deeply wrong. It's un-natural, if nothing else) Some of the stuff I've heard about the SLC scene scares me fucking shitless.

Finally, I don't like straight-edge kids (and I think you'll agree there are quite a few) who take themselves way too seriously. For example: the kind of people who made Hot Topic withdraw one of the few decent shirts they ever printed "So You're Straight-edge? I'll drink to that!" or the ones who would choose to assume an air of superiority over me or indeed anyone who drinks, smokes, has promiscous sex etc. I can understand where you're coming from of course, but knock it off: I've made my choices, you've made yours, and I'm not stupid. I've never drunk so much I was sick, I've never done drugs, and on the rare instanced I do get lucky I always use protection. I'm not a weak person, thanks very much.

So, anyway, hi.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

a pack of wolves

  • William Gibson's Babydaddy
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,291
explaining straightedge
« Reply #19 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:01 »

Quote from: 24_hour_revenge_therapy
Quote from: a pack of wolves
Okay, so you stop beatings happening. But 'it's kind of subjective, and we do take it on a case by case basis'? No offence, but who made you guys the official scene police? And why not stop a fight if only two people are involved? It's still violence.


well, i'm not sure how it is where you are, but unfortuanetly, the scene in pheonix is kinda crappy right now.  lots of shitty venues, with shady owners, who REFUSE to hire security.  who makes us the scene police?  well, we do, because someone has to.  as for stopping a one on one fight, well, we make them go outside and deal with it.  but it's not really our problem.  if two idiots want to pound each other senseless in the parking lot, let them.  i'm gonna listen to the band.


To quote those much-missed hardcore legends Fig 4.0: "Bouncers... Die!" They won't hire security? That's a good thing! It's a punk gig, not having bouncers is what you should want to happen! Your scene might be shitty, but that's no need to bring in hired muscle. The best thing to do is just make it a place where knucklehead macho types aren't welcome.

Where I am is great. Well at least it is for proper, DIY hardcore stuff. I think you get trouble at the big gigs when shit like Throwdown etc play, but that has nothing to do with my scene so I couldn't care less if some meatheads windmill each other. The few occasions something does happen it's normally dealt with by the crowd in a reasonably mature manner, without the need for some little group in particular to police things.
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #20 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:03 »

Quote
I get that all the time.

Straight edge is, y'know, respectable and all. But I'm kinda glad it hasn't really spread to riound where I live. I don't mind your original 'Don't Smoke, Don't Drink, Don't Fuck' crowd (though I only tick one X through choice, I don't smoke and never will), that's fine. Veganism I'm less keen on, especially militant veganism of the type put about by Earth Crisis and so forth (I'm a former Hunt Sab, but I firmly believe that even talking about placing the life of an animal over the life of a human is deeply, deeply wrong. It's un-natural, if nothing else) Some of the stuff I've heard about the SLC scene scares me fucking shitless.

Finally, I don't like straight-edge kids (and I think you'll agree there are quite a few) who take themselves way too seriously. For example: the kind of people who made Hot Topic withdraw one of the few decent shirts they ever printed "So You're Straight-edge? I'll drink to that!" or the ones who would choose to assume an air of superiority over me or indeed anyone who drinks, smokes, has promiscous sex etc. I can understand where you're coming from of course, but knock it off: I've made my choices, you've made yours, and I'm not stupid. I've never drunk so much I was sick, I've never done drugs, and on the rare instanced I do get lucky I always use protection. I'm not a weak person, thanks very much.

So, anyway, hi.





hey, that's cool.  like you said, it's all about choices.  you've made yours, and you seem to be able to live a perfectly healthy life.  good for you.  

as for veganism, well, that's something i LOVE to talk about.  but not here. if you wanna e-mail me, i'd be more than happy to have a nice long rant about animal rights with you.  

and yeah, there are a LOT of sxe kids (and i do mean kids.  theyre usually younger than 20) who don't have ANY sense of humor about themselves.  i remember that shirt.  i laughed at it, and shook my head.  it was dumb.  but whatever.  the kids that got it yanked probably broke edge that same year.  i have a rule:  the harder you push it, the faster you fall.

oh, and hi back. :)

p.s. the slc scene isn't that scary.  i've met guys that were a LOT tougher than those kids.  and they didn't need to beat people up to prove it.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #21 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:08 »

Quote from: a pack of wolves
Quote from: 24_hour_revenge_therapy
Quote from: a pack of wolves
Okay, so you stop beatings happening. But 'it's kind of subjective, and we do take it on a case by case basis'? No offence, but who made you guys the official scene police? And why not stop a fight if only two people are involved? It's still violence.


well, i'm not sure how it is where you are, but unfortuanetly, the scene in pheonix is kinda crappy right now.  lots of shitty venues, with shady owners, who REFUSE to hire security.  who makes us the scene police?  well, we do, because someone has to.  as for stopping a one on one fight, well, we make them go outside and deal with it.  but it's not really our problem.  if two idiots want to pound each other senseless in the parking lot, let them.  i'm gonna listen to the band.


To quote those much-missed hardcore legends Fig 4.0: "Bouncers... Die!" They won't hire security? That's a good thing! It's a punk gig, not having bouncers is what you should want to happen! Your scene might be shitty, but that's no need to bring in hired muscle. The best thing to do is just make it a place where knucklehead macho types aren't welcome.

Where I am is great. Well at least it is for proper, DIY hardcore stuff. I think you get trouble at the big gigs when shit like Throwdown etc play, but that has nothing to do with my scene so I couldn't care less if some meatheads windmill each other. The few occasions something does happen it's normally dealt with by the crowd in a reasonably mature manner, without the need for some little group in particular to police things.



lord, i LOVE figure four.

and it's cool that your scene works that well.  ours works pretty well, just in a different way.  we try to make it as safe as possible, and we don't walk around, acting tough.  when shit happens, we just take care of it, and everyone continues having a good time.  when i said the scene was shitty, i really meant that it's the venues.  those guys have NO respect for us.  it kinda sucks.

i should also point out that the BEST venue in town (and i do mean a GREAT one), the modified, has never, ever hired security.  there just aren't fights there.  it's a rule.  it's a great venue, with cool people, and loads of respect.  so, we do know how to do it that way, too. ;)
Logged

Patatat

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #22 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:11 »

Sorry, I just can't resist.


I really wan't to know what your reason for Veganism is.
Logged

a pack of wolves

  • William Gibson's Babydaddy
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,291
explaining straightedge
« Reply #23 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:12 »

No, Fig. 4.0 are a different band to Figure Four. The latter are American and still going (I think), the former were from the UK and are sadly defunct.

Have you tried squatting venues, or seeing if you can set your own legal one up?
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #24 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:14 »

that's actually probably going to be the way things are gonna go soon.  were really getting sick and tired of shitty venue owners ripping off bands and the few respectable promoters out there.  there's been talk of people buying a house for shows, and other things.  my guess is that it'll happen in the next year or two, at the most.

edit: my apologies.  didn't mean to confuse the bands.  i'm gonna go check out fig. 4.0.  sounds interesting.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #25 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:17 »

Quote from: Patatat
Sorry, I just can't resist.


I really wan't to know what your reason for Veganism is.


ha, it's cool.  but like i said, i don't wanna talk about it here.  if you wanna e-mail me about it, i'd be more than happy to talk to you about it then.  my email is [email protected]   and no, i'm not really from boston.  it's a REALLY stupid inside joke with my friends.  it will not die.  it is the zombie of inside jokes.
Logged

a pack of wolves

  • William Gibson's Babydaddy
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,291
explaining straightedge
« Reply #26 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:19 »

Well it is a pretty easy confusion. They gave themselves the funny spelling after they heard about the US band and couldn't be bothered to try and find a new name again.

House gigs are great, a guy I know's going to be putting Smackdown on here soon in his basement which should be fun. There are a few decent proper venues here too though, some which started with very humble beginnings so if you get something off the ground who knows where it'll end up.
Logged
Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #27 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:21 »

oh yeah.  some of the best shows i've ever been too have been house shows.  theres just a closeness and a community feeling you can't get anywhere else.
Logged

Patatat

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #28 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:23 »

AloneInFeburary


heres a hint its my AIM name.
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #29 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:30 »

faileddiety.

there, now you won't be shocked and/or amazed when i try to talk to ya.
Logged

jeph

  • Administrator
  • Duck attack survivor
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,790
  • MON DIEU!
    • Questionable Content
explaining straightedge
« Reply #30 on: 15 Apr 2005, 23:51 »

Straightedge is fucking retarded.

YAY I AM SO PROUD OF MYSELF BECAUSE I FOLLOW AN ABRITRARILY DETERMINED LIFESTYLE NOW LET ME BLATHER ON ABOUT IT FOR HOURS AT A TIME

Seriously. You don't drink or smoke or whatever? Cool, good for you. But the minute you come up with a catchphrase for your lifestyle I begin to lose respect.
Logged
Deathmole Jacques' head takes up the bottom half of the panel, with his words taking up the top half. He is not concerned about the life of his friend.

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #31 on: 16 Apr 2005, 00:05 »

well, i suppose theres some truth to that.  in the end, you could say that what i do, not how i describe it is the important part. i agree with that.  i don't call myself straightedge because i want to add a catchphrase.  i do it simply to label myself.  to let others know who i am.  to add another phrase to the long list that describes who i am.  i'm also irish.  i'm jewish.  i'm american and canadian.  i like pie.  i like morrisey, and the cure, and earthcrisis, and lots and lots and lots of other bands.  my favorite flavor of ice cream is strawberry.  i'm a humanist.  my favorite authors are kurt vonnegut, and john steinbeck.  my favorite comic book hero is superman.  my favorite artist is jim mahfood.  i like to get tattooed.  i write.  i like to take walks at three in the morning when the rest of the city is asleep.  one time, on one of those walks, some guy thought i was a male prostitute, and tried to buy me.  oh, and i'm straightedge.  it's who i am, and at the same time, just a part of who i am.
Logged

LightThievesAll

  • Not quite a lurker
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13
    • http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~ajohnsto
explaining straightedge
« Reply #32 on: 16 Apr 2005, 00:30 »

I think we can all agree on one thing: Slapshot is awesome, even if Choke is an asshole.

I'm not straight-edge, but I'm pretty surprised to see all the vitriol thrown in their direction.  I have straight-edge friends, and they've never given me shit for lighting a cigarette or drinking a beer, but I guess that's just my experience.  Jeez, around here, skinheads don't even get that much shit.  Well, not from people who know the deal, anyway.
Logged
Everybody needs to believe in something.  I believe I'll have another beer.

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #33 on: 16 Apr 2005, 00:33 »

When I say the things I hear about SLC scare me shitless, I mean the stories one hears of someone who's passing through and makes the mistake of asking an sxe kid for a light and ends up getting beaten with tire chains. People have died in sxe related incidents around that way.

Why the unwillingness to discuss veganism openly? It would probably be simpler than lots of individual discussions.

For the record, I dislike veganism because it clashes with my personal belief system. I'm basically a non-practicing Pagan, and as such if I believe in anything it is the cycles and hierarchies of nature (good old mother earth). Feel your teeth: Those sharp incisors weren't made for chewing particularly tough Soy beans. Look at you stomach: those Protease enzymes aren't there to digest grass. Our bodies are designed to eat meat: to do otherwise is a denial of nature. This does not mean I'm a whole-hearted supporter of animal cruelty. Factory farming and a lot of slaughterhouse (and especially fur farming) methods are simply as un-natural, in my view. However, whilst this animal cruelty is tragic, I generally overlook it (Though I don't condone it. My family's cupboards are stocked with Free Range and Organic produce, and I don't think I've ever eaten anything from Spain as a protest against bull-fighting. These values have come down to me.) However, I believe it is wrong to concentrate on cruelty to animals when there is so much cruelty to humans. When all my fellow men and women are free from hunger, disease, war, oppression and intolerance, then I will start serious work on ending un-necessary animal cruelty. Until then, it is in my mind a sideline issue: victories against factory farmers, whalers or fox hunters to be taken wherever they can, but never lose sight of the humans dying needlessly every minute. No matter what your philosophies, animals cannot be equal to humans: the kinship one should feel for the other members of one's own species, the shared bond of common humanity, must come first, if we truly want to build a better society.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

japaneasy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #34 on: 16 Apr 2005, 00:54 »

In the end, it boils down to...

Animals = taste good
Vegetables = taste like dirt
Human intelligence (in general terms, there are many exceptions) > Animal intelligence
Therefore, it is the way of things that humans eat animals.  If cows had evolved to be the predominant life form on Earth, and ate hoomans, the reverse would be true.
If I'm forced to take a buttload of vitamin pills and/or use other means to keep my body supplied with the materials it needs to survive, I am ignoring the benefits of millions of years of evolution.

My take on veganism:
I don't drink milk, I think it's nasty and just plain weird.  Plus it smells funny.
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #35 on: 16 Apr 2005, 00:58 »

Dude, that's why you're supposed to put it in the fridge...
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #36 on: 16 Apr 2005, 00:58 »

Quote
When I say the things I hear about SLC scare me shitless, I mean the stories one hears of someone who's passing through and makes the mistake of asking an sxe kid for a light and ends up getting beaten with tire chains. People have died in sxe related incidents around that way.

Why the unwillingness to discuss veganism openly? It would probably be simpler than lots of individual discussions.

For the record, I dislike veganism because it clashes with my personal belief system. I'm basically a non-practicing Pagan, and as such if I believe in anything it is the cycles and hierarchies of nature (good old mother earth). Feel your teeth: Those sharp incisors weren't made for chewing particularly tough Soy beans. Look at you stomach: those Protease enzymes aren't there to digest grass. Our bodies are designed to eat meat: to do otherwise is a denial of nature. This does not mean I'm a whole-hearted supporter of animal cruelty. Factory farming and a lot of slaughterhouse (and especially fur farming) methods are simply as un-natural, in my view. However, whilst this animal cruelty is tragic, I generally overlook it (Though I don't condone it. My family's cupboards are stocked with Free Range and Organic produce, and I don't think I've ever eaten anything from Spain as a protest against bull-fighting. These values have come down to me.) However, I believe it is wrong to concentrate on cruelty to animals when there is so much cruelty to humans. When all my fellow men and women are free from hunger, disease, war, oppression and intolerance, then I will start serious work on ending un-necessary animal cruelty. Until then, it is in my mind a sideline issue: victories against factory farmers, whalers or fox hunters to be taken wherever they can, but never lose sight of the humans dying needlessly every minute. No matter what your philosophies, animals cannot be equal to humans: the kinship one should feel for the other members of one's own species, the shared bond of common humanity, must come first, if we truly want to build a better society



that was excellantly said.

first off, yeah, slc has some shitty people, and the way they act should NOT influence how you feel about sxe.  were NOTHING like that.  but, yeah, i could see how that would upset you.

as for veganism, well, ok, here goes.  i didn't want to get into this, because if the reaction to me as a sxe kid is an example, i was afraid that starting a vegan discussion would REALLY light shit up.  but, ok.  

i understand where your coming from.  i even agree with you on most of your points.  human rights are JUST as important as animal rights.  but not more so.  i believe they are equal.  i hold animals and people on equal footing.  i do understand the argument of natural progression.  in fact, i've met and had a healthy respect for several people who live out in the woods, and hunt/fish their food.  i have no problem with that.  i have a problem with the factory farming and slaughterhouse industry.  my refusal to eat ANY animal product is a protest of that entire industry.  i refuse to support ANY meat/dairy farming until these horrific practices are stopped.  yes, that does go against the natural order of things, i know.  but i'm doing it because i can't stand to watch these things happen.  just like i protest the imprisonment of leanord peltier or i protest the tienanmen square massacre, or i protest any other violation of human rights.  i'm willing to rail against those countries, to boycott goods and to put my all for the ending of suffering against a human being.  why wouldn't i do the same for an animal?  they have just as much right to live happy, healthy, cruelty-free lives as we do.  i believe that we can help BOTH humans and animals.  i believe that we can end the massacre and torture.  on BOTH sides.  

but, again, just like when it comes to sxe, it's all a choice.  you seem to have found a good way to balance out your life, to create a place where you feel all your beliefs are well maintained.  i've done the same.  my ways are different from yours, but both are perfectly respectable.
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #37 on: 16 Apr 2005, 01:15 »

Ay. As I probably didn't put across properly, the core of my beliefs are built on values that border on the religious. They're also built on issues of pragmatism. In an ideal world, I would really love to live by hunting, farming w/e off my own land. That's what people are supposed to do, deep down. The problem is, there are simply too many humans alive to do this. Because of the value I place on human life (that of utterly limitless value except weighed against other human lives) I can't simply say 'cull the human race'. We have to live in the best way we can in this world. From what I understand, theoretically speaking, it would be impossible for the entire human race to suddenly live as vegans: we could never support ourselves. We've essentially bricked ourselves into a corner, and now to make any progress, imo, we must concentrate all our energies on one thing at a time. Global idealism is admirable, but too undirected, imo anyway.

Argument's circular anyway. Agree to disagree and all that. As you said: Both sets of ideals are perfectly respectable and we seem both quite set in them.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

japaneasy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #38 on: 16 Apr 2005, 01:18 »

Yeah okay I kinda came across as a dick in my last post.  Sorry, I'm really not that much of an ass, I swear.  I can see both sides of the equation, but, like Khar, I believe there are things that come before setting all the animals free.  
Therefore, I am working on an invention called the UFD: Universal Food
Dispenser.  In goes some stuff, nanotechnology voodoo hex magic happens, food pops out.  It will be able to make even the funkiest polenta patty taste like real beef!

Khar:  Refrigerator?  DOH!  That's what I've been getting wrong all these years!
Logged

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #39 on: 16 Apr 2005, 01:23 »

nah, i didn't think you were an asshole at all.  just watched too many dennis leary stand-up routines. ;)
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #40 on: 16 Apr 2005, 01:23 »

lol. I read a science fiction novel recently in which humanity had created a method of making any food they wanted artificially: almost every one was, essentially, vegan, finding the idea of eating anything that had been alive revolting.

The authors sly comment on that nature of humanity was that, in this world, the radical marijuana-smoking student fringe were the ones running their own farms and eating natural meat and vegetables.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

24_hour_revenge_therapy

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #41 on: 16 Apr 2005, 01:27 »

interesting. was it the authors point that in the end, it was better to go the "natural" way of eating meat and vegetables, or that in the end, there's always going to be people who need to be different?
Logged

Druid

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #42 on: 16 Apr 2005, 03:02 »

Quote from: 24_hour_revenge_therapy

and yeah, there are a LOT of sxe kids (and i do mean kids.  theyre usually younger than 20) who don't have ANY sense of humor about themselves.


There was a discussion on another forum that I'm on where some edge kids went off about people liking to go to bars to see bands and drink while they are there.

"Shut up... You're fifteen. You can't legally drink, smoke, and you shouldn't be having sex."

I really don't care what people believe as long as they aren't assholes about it.

Anyway, nice Jawbreaker reference, and do you ever see Before Braille and Financial Panther out there? They're from the Phoenix area, not edge, but same area.
Logged

FruitKat

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 140
explaining straightedge
« Reply #43 on: 16 Apr 2005, 04:36 »

I dont really have an opinion on the Straight Edge thing... Coz I dont actually know any straight edge people... And havent come across people harrassing me about this sorta thing... I know I wouldnt tolerate that...
But you know, live your life how you wanna, I'll live my life how I wanna, thats all there is to it...
Oh and on the veganism thing... My friend just recently became a vegan... And the way he explained it was sorta like... We're in the position where we dont HAVE to do this... Like we dont HAVE to murder animals to live... I mean I suppose you're right that it doesn't work on a global scale, but as individuals, we can make that choice... especially with all the cruelty to animals that goes on... I hear stories from chicken farms that are just horrible...
I think what actually annoys me, is vegetarians... or worse, Vegetarians who eat fish and chicken?... Whats with that?... I mean fair enough if you do it because you just dont like beef or whatever... But for moral reasons of eating meat? But they still eat chicken?... I know one girl, granted she is 13, but it just annoys the crap outta me... and she makes a big deal out of it too... "OH LOOK AT ME WITH MY CHICKEN BURGER WHILE YOU ALL EAT YOUR STEAKS"... I seriously dont see the difference... Anyway... with vegetarians... Cheese contains like calves something... Bah I'm not an expert obviously... But I really respect the vegan lifestyle... And if I wasnt a poor uni student who doesnt cope well with change, maybe I'd go with it... How hypocritical do I sound... Oh well... Sorry to go all off topic on you.. But the subject really interests me is all...
Logged

KharBevNor

  • Nearly grown up
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,397
  • broadly tolerated
    • http://mirkgard.blogspot.com/
explaining straightedge
« Reply #44 on: 16 Apr 2005, 04:39 »

Quote from: StarlightRecycler
...Cheese contains like calves something...


As far as I remember, Vegans argue that milking cows is akin to rape.
Logged
[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

FruitKat

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 140
explaining straightedge
« Reply #45 on: 16 Apr 2005, 04:51 »

NO NO NO!... I'm sure its something else... Vegans help me out here?...
Um... I'm definitely going to find out what it actually is... I hate having a dumb argument where I can't back it up... Oh I wish my vegan friend was online... I WILL FIND OUT!...

Bless dictionary.com...

ren·nin    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (rnn)
n.
An enzyme that catalyzes the coagulation of milk, found in the gastric juice of the fourth stomach of young ruminants and used in making cheeses and junkets. Also called chymosin, rennet.

And in case you're like me and have to look up ruminants aswell:
ru·mi·nant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (rm-nnt)
n.
Any of various hoofed, even-toed, usually horned mammals of the suborder Ruminantia, such as cattle, sheep, goats, deer, and giraffes, characteristically having a stomach divided into four compartments and chewing a cud consisting of regurgitated, partially digested food

Also, aparently it's just as easy to use a non-animal substitute... But I mean the cows are there so might as well kill em right... Well anyway... Just thought I'd back up my claim...
So eating cheese means eating baby cows...
Logged

Praeserpium Machinarum

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #46 on: 16 Apr 2005, 06:04 »

I thought it meant just stealing the calves' food, hmm sort of stealing candy from a baby, except it's healthy and life-substaining candy. Anyway generally we live in a sick peadophile food culture, I everything has to be mini and baby doesn't it? and we don't eat hens, noooo, we eat chickens, who aren't really chickens since chickens are the small yellow ones, while these fellas are pollo del diablo! What it all comes down to, is that babies taste good, lamb, calf, caviar etc. children are tasty

don't mind me, I am just rambling ;)
Logged

FruitKat

  • Obscure cultural reference
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 140
explaining straightedge
« Reply #47 on: 16 Apr 2005, 06:06 »

I'm pretty sure you have to kill the calf to get the stuff outta its stomach... But I could be wrong?
Logged

Praeserpium Machinarum

  • Guest
explaining straightedge
« Reply #48 on: 16 Apr 2005, 06:15 »

WHERE IS THE LOVE

to quote Justin Timberlake ;)
Logged

Inlander

  • Preventing third impact
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,466
  • Hug your local saintly donkey.
    • Instant Life Substitute
explaining straightedge
« Reply #49 on: 16 Apr 2005, 06:17 »

Quote from: Praeserpium Machinarum
WHERE IS THE LOVE

to quote Justin Timberlake ;)


Is that what he was looking for underneath Janet Jackson's bodice?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up