Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ForteBass]

Ok just to make sure the other thread stays on topic, we'll take this debate here. The reasoning I'm hearing for a digital piano not being a piano are minor timbre differences. And for these reasons it wouls also mean that any digital or electric instrument, isn't an instrument at all then.

Discuss. And don't be an elitist dick.

[mAlice aforeThought]

anything out ov which you can get a pleasing sound is an instrument (passive listening devices such as speakers excepted).

[bucky_2300]

Right now, I am holding a guitar. It has six strings, 22 frets, 6 tuners, a bridge, a headstock, and a body. It is a guitar. However, it does not have a big hole in the middle. It has two magnets with wire wrapped around them in the middle. It doesn't have a chambered body for resonance. It has an output jack. But it's still a guitar.

If a piano has three pedals, 88 keys of the white and black variety spaced at the proper intervals and with the right tones associated with the right keys, it is a piano. If it makes noise like a piano, and looks like a piano, but lacks the strings and acoustic chambers of an acoustic piano, it is still a piano.

My two cents.

[blindsuperhero]

I don't think there's much room for discussion here. A piano is a tuned percussion instrument that creates a sound by hammers hitting strings. If it doesn't do that, it's not a piano. If I set a keyboard to 'guitar' mode or whatever, am I playing a guitar? If I use a software synthesiser on my computer to make a ukelele sound, is my computer a ukelele? I hope the answers in both casers would be no.

Right now, I am holding a guitar. It has six strings, 22 frets, 6 tuners, a bridge, a headstock, and a body. It is a guitar.

Right, so by your logic, if an instrument had 200-odd strings (I don't know exactly how many), 88 keys, tuning pegs, a soundboard and a frame, it would be a piano. Which is not the same as

If a piano has three pedals, 88 keys of the white and black variety spaced at the proper intervals and with the right tones associated with the right keys, it is a piano. If it makes noise like a piano, and looks like a piano, but lacks the strings and acoustic chambers of an acoustic piano, it is still a piano.

Now, I might consider calling a Fender Rhodes or a Wurlitzer piano a piano, because they're basically the piano equivalent of an electric guitar. I would never called a synthesiser, whether played by keyboard or not, a piano.

[Mnementh]

A solid body guitar and an acoustic guitar are still using the same method to create the sound, no matter that one doesn't have a built in "amp."  Yours is using means other than what a piano uses to reproduce the sound of a piano.  It's just a very accurate keyboard.

[ForteBass]

Now, I might consider calling a Fender Rhodes or a Wurlitzer piano a piano, because they're basically the piano equivalent of an electric guitar. I would never called a synthesiser, whether played by keyboard or not, a piano.

But see, in regards to my piano, which basically sparked this whole thing, it is pretty much a sexified Rhodes. So given what you just said it is an electric piano.

[ASturge]

When my keyboard is set to guitar, It sounds like a guitar.

When I play my Guitar it sounds like a guitar.

That doesn't mean that the keyboard is a guitar. It just sounds like one.

[blindsuperhero]

Maybe I misunderstood how a Rhodes works, but I know that Wurlitzer pianos at least have hammers that hit tuned bells, which are then amplified. If your piano has hammers that hit things, then yes, I might allow it to be called a piano

[mAlice aforeThought]

When my keyboard is set to guitar, It sounds like a guitar.

i wish my keyboard sounded like a guitar.  my keyboard sounds like crap.

[bucky_2300]

A solid body guitar and an acoustic guitar are still using the same method to create the sound, no matter that one doesn't have a built in "amp."  Yours is using means other than what a piano uses to reproduce the sound of a piano.  It's just a very accurate keyboard.

Okay, then let's look at this.



This is a Line 6 Variax Modeling guitar. It is powered by batteries or a plugin, has no pickups or sound hole. It works entirely differently than an acoustic or electric guitar. It is in essence a guitar that imitates the sounds of many guitars and instruments.  Is it still a guitar? I think so.

[blindsuperhero]

So it doesn't work by plucking strings, the length of which is determined by holding the strings down behind frets?

Because if so, wow.

[Addius]

I wouldn't claim that just because something is a digital or electric instrument they don't pass as instruments. I would on the other hand claim that if they do not work in the same way as the original instrument then no, it isn't the same instrument. Take the case of the guitar. The "guitar" that bucky referred to is, in my oppinion, not a guitar as such, but an electric guitar.

Ofcourse I'm not a bitch that goes around and tells people that they should call it a electric guitar, just calling it a guitar is much more practical. Yet if you want to refer to the instrument you'd probably refer to it as an electrical guitar and not as a guitar, since there are important differences between them.

My own two cents

[blindsuperhero]

As I far as I can tell, no-one was saying they weren't instruments, just that an electronic keyboard wasn't a piano. Which it isn't.

[Mnementh]

This is a Line 6 Variax Modeling guitar. It is powered by batteries or a plugin, has no pickups or sound hole. It works entirely differently than an acoustic or electric guitar. It is in essence a guitar that imitates the sounds of many guitars and instruments.  Is it still a guitar? I think so.

You're actually proving my point.  If I stripped my guitar of it's pickups, I could still strum it and it would make recognizable guitar sounds through the vibration of strings set up in a manner that identifies it as a guitar.  I could play chords, and while they are not amplified, they will sound nearly identical to a chord played on the acoustic.  Anything that happens after that to change the sound is processing.  The difference between a keyboard and piano still stand.

[bucky_2300]

^ Okay, I was thinking that you were referring to other differences between the instruments.

[mechorg]

The reasoning I'm hearing for a digital piano not being a piano are minor timbre differences. And for these reasons it would also mean that any digital or electric instrument, isn't an instrument at all then.

Back to the original question at hand, I see some conflicts in your wording.

Yes, there is a difference between a digital piano and a piano.  These differences do not make the digital piano a 'non-instrument'.  The differences are in build as opposed to purpose not much unlike a vibraphone and a xylophone.

Merriam-Webster defines 'instrument' as:
a device used to produce music

and 'music' as:
1 a : the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity b : vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony

Using these definitions, practically anything can be considered a musical instrument if it is an object used to 'produce rhythm, melody, or harmony'.
(Yes, i'm an extremist).

As for your more poignant question, electronic instruments are indeed musical instruments if that was their purpose.  I have an EWI (electronic wind instrument) and just because I can make it sound like a piano or a guitar does not make it "not an instrument".  I can make wonderful sounds with it.

[Mnementh]

I don't think anyone is arguing it isn't an instrument. The question is, what sort of instrument is it, a keyboard/synthisizer or an actual piano.

[a pack of wolves]

What about a third category of digital piano as distinct from both?

[mechorg]

Well then following my previous form of research...

Piano:
: a musical instrument having steel wire strings that sound when struck by felt-covered hammers operated from a keyboard

A piano has a specific build and structure.  If a digital piano varies from this description, it is (IMO) not a piano.
I would consider it a keyboard.

EDIT:
Okay, just out of curiosity I did some research on a Fender Rhodes (because I knew I was obviously missing something as this discussion seemed too open/close).  I see the dilemma now.
By looking at a diagram (here) I think I concur that 'electric piano' is an appropriate name.

[Inlander]

Heh heh, sorry Chuck - I'm just an outrageous piano snob.  As far as I'm concerned an keyboard/synthesizer is an instrument in its own right, but it's a million miles from being a piano.  But that's only because I'm sentimental and the thing I like most about playing a piano is all the noises underneath the note that are created by the actual mechanism of the thing.  Anything else just doesn't qualify for me - it's not so much rational as emotional.

[Mikendher]

My definition is that a musical instrument is anything that makes sound. Yes, this includes walls, electric guitars, lamps, keyboards, acoustic guitars, air, and many other random physical things/sets.  But haven't you ever just banged on a pot before to make a beat? I know I have; and I call that pot an instrument. The sound made can even be discordant, unpleasing, whatever, as long as it's audible.

[Addius]

I agree with mechorg, electric piano seems to fit the bill quite nicely.

As with the other part of the discussion, my definition of a "instrument" is something that is made with the intention of making music. Sorry mates but that sorts of rules out most home-appliance drumsets in my book.

[Switchblade]

put it this way - if it has strings and hammers, it's a piano.

If it has electronics and keys, (less than a full range), then its a keyboard

if it has electronics, a full range of keys, impact sensitivity and two three built-in pedals and so on, then it's an electric piano.

I define electric pianos as being anything that's roughly equivelant to a Yamaha Clavinova. Anything less than that is just an electric keyboard.

Al of them are intsruments, some of them are just more sophisticated and sound better.

Eectric pianos have a better sound than keyboards, and are more flexible than pianos, but don't have the same quality of tone that a genuine piano does. conrsely, keyboards sound much worse, but are much more versatile than a piano or electric piano in that they can exhibit hundreds of different voices. pianos only have one voice, but htey have an authentic tone.

That's the difference. it isn't really an important one.

[KharBevNor]

^ I quite like the sound of a decent keyboard.

I am actually suprised and delighted to know that there are electric guitar equivalents of pianos.

And for my two penn'orth on the original topic, an instrument is anything you use to make music, from a church organ to an AM Radio*.

*Gotta love fifties avant-garde

[blindsuperhero]

put it this way - if it has strings and hammers, it's a piano.

If it has electronics and keys, (less than a full range), then its a keyboard

if it has electronics, a full range of keys, impact sensitivity and two three built-in pedals and so on, then it's an electric piano.

No, that's not it at all. If it has strings, hammers and no electrics, it's a piano (or maybe an 'acoustic piano')

If it has strings (or maybe something like strings, like bells), hammers, and electric amplification, it's an electric piano.

If the sound is created solely by electronics, it's a keyboard or a synthesiser or whatever. There is a big, important difference between electrics and electronics. If something is electronic in nature, I don't see how you could call it an electric piano. Because it wouldn't be.

Edit: Incidentally, Fender Rhodeses do work how I thought they did, they are electric pianos, and they don't really sound much like pianos at all, but it is a very nice, unique, distinctive sound. The Blood Brothers use an electric piano in a bunch of their songs, 'Peacock Skeleton With Crooked Feathers' has it from the start.

[a pack of wolves]

And for my two penn'orth on the original topic, an instrument is anything you use to make music, from a church organ to an AM Radio*.

*Gotta love fifties avant-garde

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

[Switchblade]

No, that's not it at all. If it has strings, hammers and no electrics, it's a piano (or maybe an 'acoustic piano')

If it has strings (or maybe something like strings, like bells), hammers, and electric amplification, it's an electric piano.

If the sound is created solely by electronics, it's a keyboard or a synthesiser or whatever. There is a big, important difference between electrics and electronics. If something is electronic in nature, I don't see how you could call it an electric piano. Because it wouldn't be.

You're letting the technical difference between "electric" and "electronic" get in the way here - "Electric piano" is less of a mouthful than "electronic piano synthesizer" - in such cases the technical definition is usually subverted by popular usage.


Put it this way -would you describe a yamaha Clavinova as being a piano? I would, and I'm a pianist (grade 8, under the UK system, which means I could TEACH piano if I were that way inclined). It's certainly a more than acceptable substitute, and I can do pretty much everything I could do with the keyboard and pedals of a "genuine" piano with a Clavinova. Short of beind able to open it up and do freaky stuff like preparing and direct-playing the strings, the Clavinova qualifies as being a piano largely by dint of size more than anything else.

I say that if it's electronic, and the keyboard is shorter than the normal eight octaves, then it's a keyboard.

If it's electronic, and the keyboard is the same size as a genuine piano keyboard, then it's an electric (or electronic, if you prefer) piano.

Hammers and strings = acoustic piano. And for the record, you can get acoustic pianos with amplification and MIDI pickups in them. These also qualify as acoustic pianos. the difference is between acoustic, mechanical action and electronic synthesis. if it doesn't have hammers and strings, it's not acoustic, but if it's the right size, it still qualifies as being a piano because it has the same range as an acoustic.

see?

[KharBevNor]

You do know the difference between 'electric' and 'electronic'. Right?

[Luke]

Having been a piano player for 11 years, I'll state my opinion that an electric piano is indeed a piano - it's just not a real one. (That's what I call it, anyway.) To me, a true piano must rely on just strings, hammers & pedals. You simply cannot duplicate that kind of sound on an electric piano.

[blindsuperhero]

We're having problems here. I'll try and make it clearer

Electric pianos do exist. They are a real instrument. An electric piano is (and only is) an instrument where hammers hit a tuned piece of metal, creating a sound which is then processed/amplified with electricity.

You know how a lot of keyboards have an 'electric piano' voice (usually number 2 or 3)? That's where the keyboard is simulating the sound of an electric piano. It doesn't sound like a piano. It doesn't sound like a keyboard set to 'piano' mode. It is an entire instrument in its own right, just as an electric guitar differs from an acoustic or classical guitar.

You can't call a keyboard, trying to sound like a real piano, an electric piano. It doesn't sound like an electric piano. It isn't even trying to sound like an electric piano. People who make keyboards wouldn't even think of calling it an electric piano, because they know it's not, and it's not trying to be. They might call it a digital piano, but we'll get onto that later.

Now, I only got to Grade 6 on the piano so my opinion is clearly worth less than yours, but no, I wouldn't call a Yamaha Clavinova a piano. Also, I have never played a keyboard (or 'digital piano') that in any way accurately simulated the feel or response of playing a piano. But that isn't even the point. The goddamn point is, if a word means something, you can't call things that aren't what that word means, by that word. It's like calling a CD a tape cassette. Sure, they both might produce similar sounds, but a CD just isn't a cassette.

Also, can't these 'digital pianos' usually reproduce the sounds of other instruments, like harpsichords and pipe organs? Why don't you say "this is my pipe organ"?

I'm really surprised this debate has got this far, to be honest. I thought we pretty much had it wrapped up when I said my computer was a ukelele, but, clearly not.

[MilkmanDan]

This is:


Controversy?

[heretic]

ok everyone take a deep breath....

ok, now, i want everyone to think really hard about this.
is it worth getting worked up over the difference between an electric piano and a keyboard? i'm all for discussion about it, but i don't think it's a discussion anymore when people are just trying to hammer thier points in harder and harder in order to convince others. maybe we should calm down and consider other peoples points. also we need to try to recognize when it's an irreconcilable difference of opinion and move on.

in my opinion a piano is the acoustic type with strings.
an electric piano has the hammer mechanism and yet uses electricity to produce the sound.
an electronic piano is one which has no hammer mechanism and yet has the full set of keys and feels very similar to a "real" piano.
a keyboard has a limited set of keys, probably feels very different and is primarily used for other voices than "piano"

thats what i think. you don't have to.

sidenote: most of you didn't read this post because of the big scary paragraphs and non-dramatic voice. : )

[KharBevNor]

This is:
Controversy?

the AMM ensemble had three transistor radio players.

Turntables are instruments if you're doing scratches and whatnot, or playing samples off them. Sampling is an instrument: if you think about it, a keyboard is nothing but a preset sampling machine, in which case a turntable is definitely an instrument.

Now curse you, I must listen to 'In The Realm Of Nothing Whatever' again. And I only have it on vinyl. Gah. I shall do this later, and use the opportunity to spin my new Queen Adreena 7" too.

[Switchblade]

You do know the difference between 'electric' and 'electronic'. Right?

yes.

most of you didn't read this post because of the big scary paragraphs and non-dramatic voice.

Yep, the way you said it all calmly and intelligently without any condescension or sarcasm was a real turn-off there, hoss.

[ElRodente]

When my keyboard is set to guitar, It sounds like a guitar.

i wish my keyboard sounded like a guitar.  my keyboard sounds like crap.

i wish my keyboard had a crap setting, all mine has is a "idonthaveakayboard" setting



and it rubs it in at every possible chance

[salada]

this is a silly thread.

anything you can use to make noise (in a sort of interactive way. turning on the radio doesn't count, but using the radio to make new compositions does) is an instrument. i think.

but trying to decide where the line between 'electronic this' and 'real that' is, is just as stupid as those hair-splitting music genre (neo-old-post-new-core-core) conversations.

(and oh. the dictionary definition above says music is a science. that's awesome.)

[godbowstomath]

INSTRUMENT IS SOUND. SOUND IS VIBRATION.

silence can be instrumental as well. whatever.

[heretic]

most of you didn't read this post because of the big scary paragraphs and non-dramatic voice.

Yep, the way you said it all calmly and intelligently without any condescension or sarcasm was a real turn-off there, hoss.[/quote]

ok that confused me, ....sarcasm circles... spinning... vertigo..ensuing...can't... speak...at. normal...speed...

[ForteBass]

ok, I never intended for a mass argument. Basically from what I'm seeing is it's a problem of semantics. So everyone, take a deep breath and relax. Cool? Cool.

[heretic]

is there an echo in here?  ; )
umm.. an echo..on..the internet. ok well on that note i'll go to bed

[Johnny C]

I think piano is A-OK.

While an electric/digital piano does not technically have the aural properties of a "real" piano, keep in mind that there are lots of "real" pianos with different aural properties and that the electric/digital piano probably can mimic one rather effectively. Even if not, the notes on the scale remain the same, so from a compositional point of view, it's pretty much the same instrument.

[c1utch]

so this topic was referring to musical instrumants, but instruments in general:

in·stru·ment (n.): An implement used to facilitate work. (See Synonyms at tool)

anyway, the next definition was:
 

(Music). A device for playing or producing music: a keyboard instrument.

I thought it was funny they used keyboard as the example

[festerius]

Being the grand son of a piano teacher, and the son of a quite accomplished piano player and being raised with a piano in our home...

An electric keyboard is not a piano, the same way that a computer keyboard hooked up to a computer hooked up to an inkjet printer is not a typewriter.

The terms are for distinct objects.

A keyboard is played like a piano (for the most part) but it is it's own musical instrument.  It is not a piano.

I can play the keyboard some what, but I've never learned to play the piano (which involves knowing how to use the peddles)

[MilkmanDan]

Turntables are instruments if you're doing scratches and whatnot, or playing samples off them

Yeah, that's my view, but I wanted to see if I could drag the argument into 'turntables just play records, duh!' area, as the keyboard/piano one was exausted about 20 posts ago.

[oddball318]

heh, dont worry, I'm wirth ya Dan.
Some cats can even do scales with scratching.
I have an album compiled of remixes of Charlie Parker songs done by various artists such as Donk, the RZA, Dan the Automator.  One of the songs done by the X-ecutioners features a scratching pattern that approximates the main sax riff (moreso in rhythm than pitch, but things are getting there).  By the by, the album is okay.

[heretic]

i don't think anyone under 30 would try to say that turntables aren't an instrument when used in a certain manner. most people over thirty probably wouldn't either, but i'm betting not all the members of that demographic have heard a good spinner

[mechorg]

I think when Q-bert came up with a 'scratch notation' for people wanting to read music for the turntable was the turnaround.

[heretic]

wow i feel like i've been deprived of some carnal knowledge. how did i know nothing of this? when was this?

[blindsuperhero]

Carnal knowledge? Yikes!

[MilkmanDan]

Assuming you are refering to your lack of knowledge on scratch notation, it's here: http://www.battlesounds.com/transcription/ttm.pdf It's a PDF, so, yeah.
If you were talking about something else, then meh.