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Author Topic: MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen  (Read 16277 times)

Peter Linfield

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« on: 10 Jun 2005, 19:33 »

I made this thread at a couple other forums, so if you just happen to go to those, and just happen to see this thread: don't take it personally that I've just copied and pasted it here. I really would like the feedback.

I'm going to get an mp3 player and I'm wondering what you guys think. I've pretty much ruled out the iPod because it's the most expensive. The Zen Micro is nice, but only holds up to 6 GB (so I'd have to get the non-Micro which is a lot more expensive). So I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the iriver H10. Anyone familiar with the irivers? Any reason I really shouldn't pick this up? It's one of the better quality brands, and one of the cheapest at $299.99.
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Signum_Tenebrae

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jun 2005, 20:06 »

I had a Zen Xtra which was 40 gigs that was very good....

... until I broke it :(

Dropped it onto the floor and I guess the hard drive broke.
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Johnny C

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jun 2005, 20:47 »

I'm going with iPod.
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Kai

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« Reply #3 on: 10 Jun 2005, 22:11 »

The price for that 20 gig iRiver is the same price for a 20 gig iPod. go with the Pod.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

banev

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jun 2005, 04:28 »

I got a Zen Xtra with 60GB space. Price was 279€,  so it was pretty cheap. Works fine. Donīt forget, you canīt have too much space for music in your pocket!
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KharBevNor

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #5 on: 11 Jun 2005, 04:42 »

In terms of actual performance and quality, Zen is #1, followed by the ipod then the iriver. With that in mind, choose by price.
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Kai

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« Reply #6 on: 11 Jun 2005, 07:33 »

Just out of curiosity, according to who? Because I'm currently planning to get one of these things myself sooner or later, and if the Zen's better I'll go with it.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

KharBevNor

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« Reply #7 on: 11 Jun 2005, 09:16 »

According to me and a good few of those 'compare products' websites/magazines/tv shows I've seen.

The Zen has a better internal sound-system, a higher maximum volume, no known battery issues (unlike the ipod) and a full charge lasts longer, and it's more robust. The differences between the interfaces are a matter of personal taste, really. The only known issue with the Zen is that its headphone port can be damaged by rough handling, though they all come with a one year warranty and the problem is the type of thing that you could have fixed down at your local electronics store, once breaking the warranty seal isn't an issue.

Also, the Zen is a serious, solid mp3 playing device, rather than a grotesque hipster fashion accessory, if you care about that kind of thing.
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Kai

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« Reply #8 on: 11 Jun 2005, 09:23 »

The forced chic is the main reason I wouldn't want to get an ipod. Also, all those rich kids at my school who's parents buy them and then they put like, 14 songs on it.


So once I get money I'll probably go with the Zen then.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Merkava

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #9 on: 11 Jun 2005, 09:25 »

The Zen sounds fantastic.
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Me And The Moon Car

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« Reply #10 on: 11 Jun 2005, 09:57 »

The sound quality on all these players is fantastic. But I am pretty sure that the Zen players are the only ones (apart from the Rio karma series) that support gapless playback. It might not be important to some people, but to me, hearing a gap between tracks that are supposed to flow smoothly together like on the albums Dark Side of the Moon or In the Aeroplane over the Sea annoys the shit out of me.
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normz

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #11 on: 11 Jun 2005, 10:00 »

Quote from: Me And The Moon Car
The sound quality on all these players is fantastic. But I am pretty sure that the Zen players are the only ones (apart from the Rio karma series) that support gapless playback. It might not be important to some people, but to me, hearing a gap between tracks that are supposed to flow smoothly together like on the albums Dark Side of the Moon or In the Aeroplane over the Sea annoys the shit out of me.


whoa thats enough to convert me when i finally do get an mp3 player, i mean i was gunna do the hipster thing and just get an ipod but hey whatevers better
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Me And The Moon Car

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #12 on: 11 Jun 2005, 10:03 »

My information for all this comes from sources about 6 months out of date. Whether anything has changed since then is anyone's guess. Do some research!

edit: http://www.pretentiousname.com/mp3players/
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banev

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #13 on: 11 Jun 2005, 10:12 »

Actually, the Zen Xtra does not provide gapless playback. Itīs like you play mp3s in winamp without having installed that plug-in you need.
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Merkava

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #14 on: 11 Jun 2005, 10:41 »

Quote from: Awkward Silence
I don't see the need for an mp3 player, to be honest. I just save my music on my hardrive, that's good enough to me. I can understand taking it on a trip or something, but you could do the same with a CD book and not have to spend $100+ on it.


You know, except for the fact that you have to LUG AROUND A MASSIVE CD BOOKLET.
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Kai

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« Reply #15 on: 11 Jun 2005, 10:47 »

That and if you're just walking around places, cd players and cases don't fit very well in pockets.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

KharBevNor

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« Reply #16 on: 11 Jun 2005, 10:52 »

Also, many mp3 players can fit well over a hundred CDs, and it's nowhere near as big a loss if it's stolen or lost.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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Merkava

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #17 on: 11 Jun 2005, 11:03 »

Yeah. Rather than having to track down all of the CD's you had, you can just buy another player and re-download off of your computer.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #18 on: 11 Jun 2005, 11:05 »

Not to mention that in a worst-case scenario a hundred CD's could easily cost about Ģ1000, whereas most mp3 players cost about Ģ200-300
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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blooflame

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« Reply #19 on: 11 Jun 2005, 12:06 »

All your complaining about lugging around CDs!! Sheesh you should have been there when you had to lug boxes of 7" 45RPM singles and the portable player was the size of the wheel on your car!

Actually - I can see a portable MP3 player, but the only reason for massive storage is so you don't have to choose what to load on it, you just put everything on there.  If you're talking MP3s, 20GB is probably more than 24 hours of music so you're not going to listen to it all in a row (usually). So, the tradeoff is: spend some time loading the player each time you want a change, or put all your music on your player  (instead of?) on your computer, and on your CDs (unless you downloaded the music).
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Peter Linfield

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #20 on: 11 Jun 2005, 12:14 »

I'm hoping for at least 10 GB of memory, but everything seems to go from 5/6 GB straight to 20GB. I already have 4.1 GB on my PC, and that will be incresing shortly. In any given day my musical tastes change a lot, so I'd much rather have enough room for all my music than decide what I want before I leave. I've narrowed it down to these two...

iriver's H10 (20GB) is a total of $407.13 CAD at their official store.

Creative's Zen Touch (20GB) is a total of $408.70 CAD at their official store.

Prices are essential identitical, so it just depends on which is better. I'm not familiar with either product. Both have touch-navigation, but the iriver has a colour interface. Anyone have any opinions on these particular brands/products?
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #21 on: 11 Jun 2005, 12:25 »

The iriver has more flashy features, but it's really fragile, and has a lot less battery life. It also supports less audio formats. As before, depends on what you want, really. A hip accessory with lots of gadgets, or a decent mp3 player?
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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Merkava

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Re: Aw you kids!! <in jest!>
« Reply #22 on: 11 Jun 2005, 14:10 »

Quote from: blooflame
All your complaining about lugging around CDs!! Sheesh you should have been there when you had to lug boxes of 7" 45RPM singles and the portable player was the size of the wheel on your car!

Actually - I can see a portable MP3 player, but the only reason for massive storage is so you don't have to choose what to load on it, you just put everything on there.  If you're talking MP3s, 20GB is probably more than 24 hours of music so you're not going to listen to it all in a row (usually). So, the tradeoff is: spend some time loading the player each time you want a change, or put all your music on your player  (instead of?) on your computer, and on your CDs (unless you downloaded the music).


The point of putting everything on there is so that you have a large selection.

"Hm, I feel like listening to some At the Drive-In, but I forgot that CD at home! What am I going to do?"

It's a lot easier to just have everything with you.

Also, you have loads of sources. At home, you have the CD's, and on you computer/player, you have the mp3s. It's more convenient.
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MilkmanDan

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #23 on: 11 Jun 2005, 14:51 »

So I just checked out the Zen Xtra. In about 30 seconds of research I discovered:

"Huge storage lets you bring up to 16,000 WMA songs (80kbps) or MP3 songs (128kbps) everywhere you go"
Anyone who uses WMAs or 128kbps MP3s clearly doesn't actually like their music. If you like your music, you want to listen to it, not a garbled mess of sounds that vaguely resembles your music. Jesus.

"Simply open NOMAD Explorer (integrated into MicrosoftŪ WindowsŪ Explorer) and drag and drop data files into the data folder or music files into the music library"
Yeah, or just plug in your ipod.

"Personalize your player with 6 different Profile settings that let you customize screen savers, skins, idle timers and more!"
Are you fucking joking? Screensavers? It's an MP3 player with a 2inch screen. What's there to save? Jesus.

"Environmental Effects simulate audio environments such as 'Concert Hall' or 'Arena'"
WOW! THAT'S SUCH A USEFUL FEATURE. I REALLY LIKE THE TOTAL LACK OF STUPID GIMMICKS.

"Load a song a second with ultra fast USB2.0 port. Works with USB1.1 too"
Note, by "works with USB1.1" we actually mean "works with USB1.1 after 17 million years of transfering your songs across."

So, no.
iPod, baby!
Man, I want a 100GB ipod. I want one so bad.
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blindsuperhero

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #24 on: 11 Jun 2005, 14:57 »

Quote from: MilkmanDan
Anyone who uses WMAs or 128kbps MP3s clearly doesn't actually like their music. If you like your music, you want to listen to it, not a garbled mess of sounds that vaguely resembles your music. Jesus.


I think that was meant to be "16,000 songs at 128kbps [or some other number of songs at some other bitrate]"

Quote from: MilkmanDan
"Simply open NOMAD Explorer (integrated into MicrosoftŪ WindowsŪ Explorer) and drag and drop data files into the data folder or music files into the music library"
Yeah, or just plug in your ipod.


But, with an iPod don't you have to use the special iPoddy format? Can you actually use an iPod as a removable harddrive (that is, just put any old file onto it)? You can with the iRiver, and if you use playable files, and put the in the Music subfolder, well, you can listen to them too.

I'd get the iRiver, if I were you, I have a 5gb H10, the 20gb ones don't come out over here until autumn, and, well, it's fine and dandy.
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Radiowar

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« Reply #25 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:01 »

Quote from: blindsuperhero
Can you actually use an iPod as a removable harddrive (that is, just put any old file onto it)?


Pretty much, yeah. I saw people running  Linux applications with their iPod on the teevee.

I like my 40 GB iPod. Don't need much more than that (although maybe better battery life).

Drizzt982

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« Reply #26 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:08 »

I have a Zen Micro.  It does only hold a little bit, but I figure there's only 1000 or so songs I ever listen to regularly, so I don't really need a lot more space.  Even with the lack of space I still find myself skipping a lot of the time.  I got it in December, and the only problem I've had with it is probably because I left it in a hot car for a few hours.  My girlfriend said she read a thing in the paper that compared them, and the Zen had 0 cons, and her iPod has been a headache ever since she got it.  I guess if you really need to hold 2000 songs, the Zen won't work, but otherwise it's great.
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MilkmanDan

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« Reply #27 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:10 »

Quote from: blindsuperhero
But, with an iPod don't you have to use the special iPoddy format? Can you actually use an iPod as a removable harddrive (that is, just put any old file onto it)? You can with the iRiver, and if you use playable files, and put the in the Music subfolder, well, you can listen to them too.


Ipod Supported Audio Formats: AAC, AIFF, Apple Lossless, Audible, MP3, WAV
Yes, you can use it as a HDD.

The whole point of getting an MP3 player is to carry my whole music collection with me. A 5GB IRiver is therefore not an option. Actually, no-one makes an MP3 player big enough for me, but at least some get close.
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blindsuperhero

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« Reply #28 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:12 »

Yeah, 5GB is a bit small for me, but as I said the 20GB iRivers aren't out here, and iPods just plain suck :)
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MilkmanDan

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« Reply #29 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:14 »

Zen > iriver.
You can get Zens over here, you shoulda got one of them.
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blindsuperhero

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« Reply #30 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:17 »

Well, they look a bit minging for a start, and the general consensus of the people I'd talked to was that iRiver were the shit, basically. But anyway, apart from the capacity, there's nowt wrong with it.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #31 on: 11 Jun 2005, 15:45 »

And, what is actually the problem with a WMA?

Seriously, unless you're going to plug BeyerDynamics into your mp3 player device, there is fuck all you are going to hear between 128kpbs and 172kpbs (cd standard). Tbh, bitching about stuff like that is still yet more audiophiliac bollocks. Hell, I rip all my CD's at 96 kpbs. Guess what? They still sound fine. Also, if your computer doesn't have USB 2.0, then I fart in your general direction. All your other criticisms are, basically, drivel.

If you're buying an mp3 player for aesthetics then you are, essentially, a tool. The zen comes in a black leather carry-case anyway, so you don't even have to look at it.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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blindsuperhero

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« Reply #32 on: 11 Jun 2005, 16:01 »

Fun fact: On my iRiver, I can hear MP3 distortion on songs recorded at 192kbps. CDs are not 172kbps, they are 689kbps. And as for the BeyerDynamics comment, iRiver H10s actually come with Sennheiser headphones, which are equally high-class. I used to rip CDs at 96kbps, and to be honest, they sound shit. Back when I was a damn fool about these things I used to burn mix CDs from MP3s, and they just sound absolutely lame compared to the original.

Oh, and I take aesthetics into consideration on most things I buy. It is by no means the only thing, but it is always a concern, and I think few people could honestly say they don't consider it.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #33 on: 11 Jun 2005, 16:19 »

16-bit PCM coding at a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz was 172 kbps on an mp3 last time I looked, but ok. mp3 quality doesn't really map to cd's in any real way anyway.

I've no idea what this mp3 distortion you're talking about is. The slight hollowness on lower bit-rate recordings? Only thing I've really noticed in mp3 copy CD's made with 128+s is an unwillingness to play at a loud volume.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Signum_Tenebrae

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« Reply #34 on: 11 Jun 2005, 16:28 »

I generally prefer my MP3s at 192..  128 is okay, 96 I can start to hear distortion..

It's not that big of a deal since a lot of stuff I listen to (and Khar probably as well) is made to sound like shit on purpose.
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Signum_Tenebrae

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« Reply #35 on: 11 Jun 2005, 16:31 »

A funny anecdote..

When I went to go buy my Zen Xtra the salesman tried to talk me into buying an iPod instead because he claimed "the Zen Xtra doesn't sound as good when plugged up to big sound systems."

WTF man I'm going to listen to it in a car or walking to class with headphones not hook it up to a Bose surround sound system or something.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #36 on: 11 Jun 2005, 16:36 »

Well, I haven't got particularly good hearing.

That probably contributes to it.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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blindsuperhero

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« Reply #37 on: 11 Jun 2005, 16:55 »

16 bits per sample. 44,100 samples per second. 705600 bits per second, 689.025 kilobits per second. Of course that doesn't relate in a meaningful way to MP3 encoding, but I can't begin to imagine what is meant by saying 172kbps MP3 is 'cd standard'.

What I mean by MP3 distortion are little artifacts, if you will, at certain points in some songs, usually only on one channel, they are kind of like little bursts of white noise, they're quite hard to explain without you being able to hear them. You probably have to pay quite close attention to notice them, but I do pay close attention when listening to music. I assume they are a side effect of the MP3 encoding system just as JPEG artifacts are side-effects of how they are encoded.
This is entirely unrelated to the compression effect when playing MP3s, which does kind of manifest itself as a lack of 'loudness'. This is a more audiophiliac distinction, so I didn't make a point about it, but yes, it makes the whole thing sound unclear and hazy (in a fairly subtle, but definitely noticable, way). A non-audiophile would most likely notice the songs not sounding as 'loud' or as rockin' as they usually do.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #38 on: 11 Jun 2005, 17:01 »

Well, I record stuff onto my computer at 16 bit PCM, stereo, 44.1 kHz, and it comes out as 172 kpbs wavs. I have no idea about those white noise things you're talking about. Given that almost everything I have is at 128 or lower, I can't believe I wouldn't have heard them whilst trying to pick lyrics out.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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-sam

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« Reply #39 on: 11 Jun 2005, 17:21 »

Whatever program you're using must be doing some encoding of those PCM files.  I've dropped AIFFs (what Apple calls a .wav) into iTunes and the bitrate was huge.

Really though, if sound quality is that big of a deal, what are people listening to mp3s?  Use flac and/or ALE and be done with it...and get an appropriately huge player to store them. :)

-sam
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Kai

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« Reply #40 on: 11 Jun 2005, 17:45 »

I convert my flac's to Wav and get upwards of about 1411 kbs. Course, that and SHN's are the only thing concerts are really traded in, so.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

blindsuperhero

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« Reply #41 on: 11 Jun 2005, 18:23 »

Quote from: KharBevNor
I can't believe I wouldn't have heard them whilst trying to pick lyrics out.


It's maybe quite a subtle thing, I usually only notice it on headphones as it usually corresponds with a particular sound shifting across the stereo spectrum. You may not notice it because for example, if the distortion occurs on a hi-hat, the sound created by the distortion is very similar to the sound of the hi-hat, the only reason it's noticable is because it doesn't follow the same attack/decay pattern you'd expect from a hi-hat. And of course, listening in detail to the sound of the music is entirely different to listening in detail to lyrics.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #42 on: 11 Jun 2005, 18:50 »

See, I normally only listen to the vocals or the guitars on standard rock/metal songs. Given that I am a vocalist/lyricist and I play the guitar, these are of course the things that most interest me.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
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[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

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Merkava

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« Reply #43 on: 11 Jun 2005, 19:34 »

I blacked out until blindsuperhero's most recent post. :P

I'd hate for the instrument I actually play to sound like crap.
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Peter Linfield

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« Reply #44 on: 11 Jun 2005, 22:20 »

Thanks for all the information and discussion. I've thought about it, and I think I'm going to go with the iriver H10 20GB model. It has enough memory, good enough features for me, and it's damn sexy.
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MilkmanDan

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #45 on: 12 Jun 2005, 03:12 »

Jesus fucking Christ! You use 96kbps MP3's? I'm seriosuly not an audiophile, I can't tell the difference between a VBR MP3 and a CD most of the time, but 128kbps / 192kbps is a really, really noticable difference. I don't have anything at 96kbps, but it can't be pretty. And for reference a full WAV is 1411 kbps, and lossless (eg. Flac) is around 800kbps. As a side note, my friend who is a full on audiophile (he won't listen to MP3's at all) tells my Metal suffers from compression worse than anything than Electronica. So, uh.
Now you know.
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blindsuperhero

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #46 on: 12 Jun 2005, 05:59 »

Quote from: MilkmanDan
And for reference a full WAV is 1411 kbps


Ah, of course, I forget that it's in stereo, so 705600 bits per second x2 = 1411200 bits per second, and they must be using 1000 bits for a kilobit (that might be standard, actually, it's probably only bytes that it's 1024)
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_grace_

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #47 on: 12 Jun 2005, 06:54 »

don't you have to have a special program to put songs onto an ipod? (itunes)

is it like that with all mp3 players? (big ones, not the pissy little ones like Shuffle)
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KharBevNor

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MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #48 on: 12 Jun 2005, 06:59 »

Zen basically loads as another drive on your pc, and you just drag and drop using the folder sidebar.
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http://panzerdivisio

_grace_

  • Guest
MP3 Players: iPod / iriver / Zen
« Reply #49 on: 12 Jun 2005, 07:06 »

that's pretty good. no attatched software. i've never heard of Zen though, maybe they're not in Aus.
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