Topic: at what point does sound become music? (Read 20581 times)

zekterellium · « **on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:13 »

just wondering, in your opinion, at what point to a bunch of sounds become music? and at what point does music become noise? i'm leaving this brief because i'm interested in how you guys are gonna answer this.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #1 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:20 »

Music is what you make it. I would say the moment something has any semblance of order it becomes music. Waves crashing on a shore, that's music. A heartbeat is music, a fan is music...There is no magical point. Hell, I really can't think of anywhere I'd definitely say 'this is not music'.

Robbo · « **Reply #2 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:21 »

I guess the easiest answer is that of organisation and intetion. You can make music banging two rocks together if you do it in some more of organise way and the intention of music rather than just random banging. I'm sure people have made "body music" before...doing nothing but slapping their skin, clicking their joints, etc. And of course things like beat-boxing are an extention of that...when it comes from being random sounds to as they say "making music with their mouth." I certainly wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying things like bird and whale song are some form of music.

That of course means it's very hard to stop music from being music and make it noise. Now, while loud angry stuff seems to scare half the people here and as much as they dont want it to be, it's still music. You have to turn the distortion all the way up til it's near pure white noise really. People are still playing instruments and they could be playing any well know pop song, just really loud, really fast and with loads of effects, still music.

When it does finally reach just beating your instruments around Injected Bleach style, that is noise. Doing it as part of a song, as section, experiemention is just music...but truely random smashing your guitar around crosses the line maybe.

So, most noise is music and it's really hard fro music to be "just noise" whatever people want to think...in my view.

zekterellium · « **Reply #3 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:33 »

that's a good answer.

i listen to a lot of pierre henry and john cage, music you could call musique concrete if you had to classify it, and to me that's music but to a lot of people it isn't and i can understand why. even just noise can be almost musical, and it has a surprising effect - government alpha hypnotises me, it's weird beyond words. i don't even really enjoy it, but there's something beautiful beyond words about pitches and feedback. it's prolly psyhological.

Garcin · « **Reply #4 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:34 »

I definitely agree: it's a matter of intent. Most famous example is John Cage's 4' 33'' which involves the pianist sitting at the piano for 4 minutes and 33 seconds and not playing. Cage explained that he wanted the audience to think about what music was, and that the music was in fact being generated by the audience noises. Silence transformed into music because of intent. I think it's pretty cool. And yes, you can get this on CD.

--Moiche

KharBevNor · « **Reply #5 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:36 »

My favourite track of absolute silence is Type O Negative - The Misinterpretation of Silence and It's Disastrous Consequences. Not only because it has a cool title, but because they put it as one of the tracks on their best-of CD.

Now THAT's self-deprecation.

zekterellium · « **Reply #6 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:36 »

i have that song!

i heard a trance dj was being smarmy and saying he sampled it, so cage's estate sued him... and won.

Robbo · « **Reply #7 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:41 »

Noise can certainly be used for music...it's all the intent thing again. I listen to a lot of noise stuff and experimental electronica type stuff. Things like Ulver just having the hum off feedback from their guitar amps for 5 mins, slowly building up as they turn stuff on, waving as they lower and raise the levels ...before slow electronic sounds kick in then they start playing...that's music.

Or found-sound, like Khar's track Solar Symphony..using things various space signals and bleeps to create some atmospheric eletronica works..again still music.

Me And The Moon Car · « **Reply #8 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:49 »

The answer lies in the only six-letter word in the English language containing only consonants.

Merkava · « **Reply #9 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:49 »

I like to think of a moment on the always brilliant show, Angel. This quote comes from Lorne. I'm kind of paraprhasting here, though.

"You know, I can hold a high note for an eternity, but really, after a while, it's just sound; white noise. It's not the notes that make music, but the change of notes."

KharBevNor · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:53 »

Quote from: Robbo

When it does finally reach just beating your instruments around Injected Bleach style, that is noise. Doing it as part of a song, as section, experiemention is just music...but truely random smashing your guitar around crosses the line maybe.

Lets start getting philosophical here.

Is it possible to beat something round totally tandomly? Won't your subconscious influence the sound created?

Robbo · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:53 »

Quote from: Me And The Moon Car

The answer lies in the only six-letter word in the English language containing only consonants.

Crwths? Wait, damn Welsh uses w as a vowel as well. Otherwise I would have just said syzygy

Merkava · « **Reply #12 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:56 »

Quote from: KharBevNor

Quote from: Robbo

When it does finally reach just beating your instruments around Injected Bleach style, that is noise. Doing it as part of a song, as section, experiemention is just music...but truely random smashing your guitar around crosses the line maybe.

Lets start getting philosophical here.

Is it possible to beat something round totally tandomly? Won't your subconscious influence the sound created?

I would think that, if you are going to play randomly, you are really telling yourself to play randomly. I feel there is always purpose in music, even if you just wing it. You still want to wing it and still are going for a "random" sound.

Robbo · « **Reply #13 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:59 »

Quote from: Merkava

"You know, I can hold a high note for an eternity, but really, after a while, it's just sound; white noise. It's not the notes that make music, but the change of notes."

If it's just the one note...it's just a sound maybe? Though there is music made using just the one note...though it's not just the flat use of one note. With shifts and changes (as much as you can get) such as Dreams of Dying Stars - Aeon E which is over an hour long. Thought it should be pointed out it was an experimention in minialist ambient/drone music.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 16:59 »

What I base this on though is my own personal experiments with music: feeding pictures of pure white noise into beep-map generators, setting randomly generated drum-loops and mixer settings, etc. total, mathmetically generated randomness seems to come out sounding oddly musical about 90% of the time.

Garcin · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:09 »

Yep, we humans are pretty amazing at pattern recognition. That's why we can still beat computers at Go. So good that we tend to find patterns where none exist. Hence divine faces in rutabaga.

Ok, so based on what you said, if a car backfires in a tunnel, and due to some incredibly unlikely coincidence, it sounds exactly like a guitar riff from Perfect From Now On, is it music?

--Moiche

Merkava · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:13 »

Quote from: Robbo

Quote from: Merkava

"You know, I can hold a high note for an eternity, but really, after a while, it's just sound; white noise. It's not the notes that make music, but the change of notes."

If it's just the one note...it's just a sound maybe? Though there is music made using just the one note...though it's not just the flat use of one note. With shifts and changes (as much as you can get) such as Dreams of Dying Stars - Aeon E which is over an hour long. Thought it should be pointed out it was an experimention in minialist ambient/drone music.

Exactly. It's the change or manipulation of notes that creates music. It's no coincidence that that quote was a metaphor for life, either. XP

Robbo · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:14 »

Moiche, maybe if it was a good riff

. But seriously...I don't know about that...but if someone sampled it...could certainly be used to make music. Or, if the backfiring was intention...specially if done repeatly to make the song play out...would be music. Weird but musical.

Merkava, we agree on something. Let's mark this as a rare and happy day when the planets must have alined or something like that.

Gryff · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:21 »

Here we go again... What is art?

Has anyone heard the Disintegration Loops by William Basinski? This guy went to transfer all this music that he made decades ago from tape to CD, but as he was running the tape, it started to dissolve. So he recorded it anyway, looped it, and made four discs of this weird, totally organic sounding ambient music. Some of the tracks are 40 minutes long. It's mesmerising - I couldn't stop listening to it!

Robbo · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:26 »

Hold up there....art is a whole different question. The music one we seem to agree one and it seems to work within our own ideas.

I haven't heard said music but I would like to, it does sound like the sort of thing I'd listen to..give what I've talked about in this thread and in other places. Sounds like a fine example of intention and soundcreation to me.

Gryff · « **Reply #20 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:33 »

I don't think art is a whole different question at all.

I think you could say that music is what people say it is, just like art, hence why "found sounds" can be considered music. It's the same as when Marcel Duchamp put a urinal in an exhibition and called it a work of art. It's very difficult to draw any strict lines because what we consider art, or more specifically music, changes constantly.

Also, The Disintegration Loops have my seal of approval, if that means anything to you!

Robbo · « **Reply #21 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:41 »

Well, I see art as a different question, because I'm not an active lover of art like I am of music. Not really in the same place to comment and from where I stand, it seems a bigger and more complex idea to me in some ways.

Though one point I think you're trying to make is...it changes with our ability to create it...because of the value we see in things made by humans and their tools. That or its some stuff about socity and social structures and psychological states that are probably far to long winded for here and now.

Anyway, you seal of approval? Means someone that may or may not know what they're on about likes it. Just like a lot of things. Just dont try to say it means I should take Indie in the same light ok?

KharBevNor · « **Reply #22 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:45 »

Is there any real difference between art and music?

Surely a piece of music is as much a work of art as the mona lisa is a great work of literature, if you see what I mean. All different mediums.

Gryff · « **Reply #23 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:52 »

Quote from: Robbo

Just dont try to say it means I should take Indie in the same light ok?

I wouldn't dream of it

Quote from: KharBevNor

Surely a piece of music is as much a work of art as the mona lisa is a great work of literature, if you see what I mean. All different mediums.

Exactly. I'm saying that music is a form of art so it falls under the more general question that people have been asking for thousands of years.

What we define as art changes due to many things. Society, technology etc...

Merkava · « **Reply #24 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:59 »

Quote from: Gryff

I don't think art is a whole different question at all.

I think you could say that music is what people say it is, just like art, hence why "found sounds" can be considered music. It's the same as when Marcel Duchamp put a urinal in an exhibition and called it a work of art. It's very difficult to draw any strict lines because what we consider art, or more specifically music, changes constantly.

Also, The Disintegration Loops have my seal of approval, if that means anything to you!

That Disintegration Loops thing reminds me of this Flaming Lips record I saw in my local Tower Records. It was two discs, and it asked the listener to put them both on at the same time. I didn't buy it since I don't really like The Lips, but it seemed interesting. Wierd sound experiments interest me.

Which reminds me, I have yet to actually experience Dark Side of the Moon synched up with the Wizard of Oz. My sister says it actually works.

And yay, we DO agree on something, Robbo!

Merkava · « **Reply #25 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:59 »

Quote from: Gryff

I don't think art is a whole different question at all.

I think you could say that music is what people say it is, just like art, hence why "found sounds" can be considered music. It's the same as when Marcel Duchamp put a urinal in an exhibition and called it a work of art. It's very difficult to draw any strict lines because what we consider art, or more specifically music, changes constantly.

Also, The Disintegration Loops have my seal of approval, if that means anything to you!

That Disintegration Loops thing reminds me of this Flaming Lips record I saw in my local Tower Records. It was two discs, and it asked the listener to put them both on at the same time. I didn't buy it since I don't really like The Lips, but it seemed interesting. Wierd sound experiments interest me.

Which reminds me, I have yet to actually experience Dark Side of the Moon synched up with the Wizard of Oz. My sister says it actually works.

And yay, we DO agree on something, Robbo!

Merkava · « **Reply #26 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 17:59 »

Quote from: Gryff

I don't think art is a whole different question at all.

I think you could say that music is what people say it is, just like art, hence why "found sounds" can be considered music. It's the same as when Marcel Duchamp put a urinal in an exhibition and called it a work of art. It's very difficult to draw any strict lines because what we consider art, or more specifically music, changes constantly.

Also, The Disintegration Loops have my seal of approval, if that means anything to you!

That Disintegration Loops thing reminds me of this Flaming Lips record I saw in my local Tower Records. It was two discs, and it asked the listener to put them both on at the same time. I didn't buy it since I don't really like The Lips, but it seemed interesting. Wierd sound experiments interest me.

Which reminds me, I have yet to actually experience Dark Side of the Moon synched up with the Wizard of Oz. My sister says it actually works.

And yay, we DO agree on something, Robbo!

Robbo · « **Reply #27 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 18:05 »

Quote from: Merkava

That Disintegration Loops thing reminds me of this Flaming Lips record I saw in my local Tower Records. It was two discs, and it asked the listener to put them both on at the same time.

I've seen that idea done before...don't know who did it first though as I don't know when FL released that record. Neurosis and Tribes of Neurot (a sister project that contains all the members of Neurosis and more) released the cds Times of Grace and Grace. Which are ment to be played side by side to create an extra, more detail experience and all that.

Gryff · « **Reply #28 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 18:17 »

The Flaming Lips one is called Zaireeka (Zaire + Eureeka) and it's four discs. I've had a go with it with a few friends and it's pretty fun synching the tracks and listening to the bits where it all comes together perfectly and the bits where we messed up!

Kai · « **Reply #29 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 18:21 »

When was that record released? It reminds me of an article Lester Bangs (The Last Great record reviewer. *weeps*) wrote, where he suggested that someone, not sure who, would create a record for each of the instruments and then you'd play them all at once and that we'd all have a grand olde time.

El Opium · « **Reply #30 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 18:41 »

When it comes to defineing whats music and what isn't I haven't a clue. Its down to personal choice. An old housemate accused me of hating music because of some of the stuff I liked listening to. One way I look at things though is if the recording is on vinyl and I can play it at the wrong speed without immedietly noticing, then it's leaning toward noise.

sp2 · « **Reply #31 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 20:11 »

The dfference between noise and music is that noise lacks composition and intent. It has to be purposeful, and it has to all fit together to create a greater whole. You can have several minutes of tape hiss and have it be music if that adds to the complete composition of the piece.

Keith Decent · « **Reply #32 on:** 10 Jul 2005, 22:08 »

this is the same question as 'When does an object become art?'

and the answer is:

Whenever someone points at it and says 'OMG art!' or in this case, 'Look, this is music.'

To put it logically. Art and music are human creations. Without the definiton we created for them, they would just be 'stuff' and 'sounds.' And, since one person's idea of what fits into one of these categories is no more or less important than any other person's. Then the above statements are true.

Long story short, art and music are opinions, and you can't argue an opinion and expect to come out with a fact.

Patatat · « **Reply #33 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 00:40 »

www.purevolume.com/whistlecore

That is when music becomes noise. There is no pattern in the music, there is nothing. Just random whistles and a guy screaming.

MilkmanDan · « **Reply #34 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 04:44 »

Someone mentioned the Disintergration Loops. This makes them a winner, because William Basinski is seriously kickass.

And the answer to your question is somewhere around here: http://www.alien8recordings.com/MP3/frequency13.mp3
Masonna, bitches. Noise for life.

My Aim Is True · « **Reply #35 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 06:11 »

Quote from: KharBevNor

Is there any real difference between art and music?
.

I wouldn't call the Mona Lisa a work of music.

Gryff · « **Reply #36 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 17:37 »

good one...

*cough cough*

*tumbleweed rolls past*

Trollstormur · « **Reply #37 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 18:10 »

When it reaches the top five list of TRL.

Merkava · « **Reply #38 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 20:03 »

Quote from: Gryff

The Flaming Lips one is called Zaireeka (Zaire + Eureeka) and it's four discs. I've had a go with it with a few friends and it's pretty fun synching the tracks and listening to the bits where it all comes together perfectly and the bits where we messed up!

Ah, that's it. I was misled, seeing as how a two-disc holder is the same as a four-disc. Anyway, mabe I'll pick it up.

La Creme · « **Reply #39 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 20:22 »

Quote

The answer lies in the only six-letter word in the English language containing only consonants.

Gypsy's? So if a gypsy can possess it, it's music. Wicked. Gypsies can possess just about everything because they are ninja-swift and live in caravans. SHUT UP ITS A GOOD REASON IN MY PANTS!

mechorg · « **Reply #40 on:** 11 Jul 2005, 21:10 »

Geez, people. Music IS a form of art. Art is the conscious use of a skill or creative imagination to form something aesthetically pleasing. Music is doing this with sound as the medium.

I agree with Khar in that anything you hear (or not hear) can be considered music if you, yourself find it pleasing to listen to. Waves crashing on a beach or the industrial generator chugging along or even something that has no noticable rhythm can be considered music and not noise. Its all personal opinion.

If you are talking about more conventional music, just look at dictionary.com and find this:

>Music
The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

Music is just as objective to the individual as scents, tastes, and beliefs. What one might consider music could be noise to another.

KharBevNor · « **Reply #41 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 00:27 »

Quote from: My Aim Is True

I wouldn't call the Mona Lisa a work of music.

What about the music......OF THE SOUL?

But art is art.

heretic · « **Reply #42 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 06:02 »

i think art is any thing that evokes emotion. period. maybe it's not intentional, pleasing, or good, but it is art. note, i said any thing, not anything (i.e. not interaction between people... well... maybe...)

loyalpeon · « **Reply #43 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 06:50 »

Quote from: La Creme

The answer lies in the only six-letter word in the English language containing only consonants.

SPHYNX!

heretic · « **Reply #44 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 06:57 »

but Y is a vowel in that case

Patatat · « **Reply #45 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 11:30 »

Well down in the south, they dont use the o or u, so there are a grand selection of words without vowels there.

Like s--p...or sth...fck...like I need t get the fck t the sth

Valrus · « **Reply #46 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 15:26 »

Quote from: Me And The Moon Car

The answer lies in the only six-letter word in the English language containing only consonants.

Oh, man, I never noticed! That's awesome!

Still, though:

Valrus · « **Reply #47 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 15:27 »

p.s. rhythm

p.p.s. don't tell me "y" is a vowel there

p.p.p.s. I AM RIGHT

sp2 · « **Reply #48 on:** 12 Jul 2005, 20:36 »

Y technically is a vowel. Thus, the only word in the English language that lacks a vowel is Cwm.

IronOxide · « **Reply #49 on:** 16 Jul 2005, 15:48 »

Music occurs when you make a consious effort to collaborate it and invoke an emotion other than frustation or irritation. That guy screaming with a whistle is not making music. Your little brothe banging pots beside you while you are on the computer is not muic. Unless he tries to make it more consistant and fun to not just his hands and joy of misery, but to his ural sense.

THESE FORUMS NOW CLOSED (read only)

Author Topic: at what point does sound become music? (Read 20581 times)

zekterellium

Robbo

zekterellium

Garcin

zekterellium

Robbo

Me And The Moon Car

Merkava

Robbo

Merkava

Robbo

Garcin

Merkava

Robbo

Robbo

Robbo

Merkava

Merkava

Merkava

Robbo

El Opium

sp2

Keith Decent

Patatat

MilkmanDan

Merkava

La Creme

mechorg

heretic

heretic

Patatat

sp2