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Author Topic: "Selling out"  (Read 18605 times)

Zac_The_Ripper

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"Selling out"
« on: 17 Nov 2005, 17:55 »

I'll never understand why people consider making it big "selling out".  My own opinions on this matter are:
1) As an artist, it is your purpose in life to enlighten as many people as possible, in a way that they would never be able to do on their own.  By becoming successful, it helps you to acheive this, and also demonstrates to you the large, and growing, number of people who have been "enlightened" by your own hard work.
2) Personally, I consider "selling out" to be when an individual chooses, purely for the purposes of monetary gain, to use their fame/ reputation/ influence to sell a product that is not the result of their creative labour.  The product itself is irrelevant, as is the individual (or group of individuals) and their fame/ reputation(s)/ influence.

Surely I'm not the only person that feels this way?

This thread is not to become a list of who you consider to have/ have not "sold out".  If you want to reply, keep the naming of names to an absolute minimum

Just because I've stated my opinion, it doesn't mean I think you're wrong
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Storm Rider

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"Selling out"
« Reply #1 on: 17 Nov 2005, 18:08 »

I define 'selling out' as taking your music in a different direction (often a worse one) so that it will appeal to a greater demographic and thereby earning you more money. It doesn't necessarily have to be something you didn't create. The obvious one is Metallica deciding they liked huge piles of money more than playing good music.
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Gryff

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"Selling out"
« Reply #2 on: 17 Nov 2005, 18:11 »

I liked YOUR MOM better before she sold out.

Zac_The_Ripper

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"Selling out"
« Reply #3 on: 17 Nov 2005, 18:35 »

That's a very good point, Storm, and one I hadn't thought of.  Anyone else got something I missed?
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"Selling out"
« Reply #4 on: 17 Nov 2005, 18:43 »

It is difficult for me to define selling out for the sole fact that the lines between selling out and musical exploration can sometimes be blurred.  I could only say a band really sold out if a band produced an album that had very different characteristics from the bands older works and that this album sounds very similar to another popular band.  Or if a band toned itself down to be released to little kids, or god forbid kidz bop.
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rive gauche

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"Selling out"
« Reply #5 on: 17 Nov 2005, 19:44 »

Why does "selling out" have to be exclusive to art?
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"Selling out"
« Reply #6 on: 17 Nov 2005, 19:46 »

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I liked YOUR MOM better before she sold out.


That's a very good point, Gryff, and one I hadn't thought of.
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El Opium

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"Selling out"
« Reply #7 on: 17 Nov 2005, 19:48 »

I would contend that a great number of artists who make it big don't necessarily do so because of their hard work. A lot of the biggest artists are picked and polished by lable bosses and radio. I'd also say that the purpose of being an artist certainly isn't to 'enlighten' as many people as possible about your work. I think it's quite possible to have the majority of people not care about your work and still be an artistic sucess. If this weren't true the world would lack a great number of wonderful albums that were'nt neccesarily made to be accessible.
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Storm Rider

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"Selling out"
« Reply #8 on: 17 Nov 2005, 19:56 »

Quote from: El Opium
I would contend that a great number of artists who make it big don't necessarily do so because of their hard work.


To me, this doesn't constitute 'selling out', because I think the term implies some modicum of respectability to begin with, which bands like that don't have.
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lastclearchance

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"Selling out"
« Reply #9 on: 18 Nov 2005, 00:38 »

Storm Rider: Unless I'm misinterpreting, El Opium's point is less about bands being crafted by labels and more about A&R and marketing execs (of indies or majors) putting thir money and efforts behind certain bands. That's speculation, and the band's hard work can only convince execs to make that investment. To say that bands with this kind of backing don't carry the "respectability" that "selling out" trades in is a vast misinterpretation of the concept of "selling out" in my opinion.

Spike: Why are children not a legitimate musical audience?
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"Selling out"
« Reply #10 on: 18 Nov 2005, 02:57 »

rive gauche: 'selling out' isn't necessarily exclusive to art, but selling out in art is a lot more noted than selling out in, say, running a restaurant. If you sell your restaurant to a huge corporation just to get more money, and your management and food quality goes down the shitter, that's what I consider 'selling out'.
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"Selling out"
« Reply #11 on: 18 Nov 2005, 06:19 »

I used to think "selling-out" was a total joke.

I still think people saying that signing to a major label or..you know...selling an album or two is selling out is bullshit.

However I think it is possible to sell out. I think that Green Day's Bullet In A Bible album is blatant capitalisation on their resurgence, and it was really uncalled for...especially since every single one of the ...Idiot shows has been exactly the same.
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"Selling out"
« Reply #12 on: 18 Nov 2005, 11:07 »

I don't like to use the term "selling out" because some people I know simply use it to describe any band that has become terrible, whether it was because of commercial success or not. They're not privy as to why a bands sound changed, and so any band, no matter how big or small they are "Sold out" once these people stopped liking their music. I'd much rather just critisize albums that shit me, rather referring to some stupid label that indicates that as soon as you throw money at a musician, they will automatically become terrible. Some musicians were terrible long before they made it big, some make it big and still make good music. And of course, theres the grey area.
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TrueNeutral

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"Selling out"
« Reply #13 on: 18 Nov 2005, 12:48 »

I don't really care if someone has 'sold out' or not. I'm not even sure what it is, and I don't care. Loads of people went 'ZOMGMODESTMOUSESOLDOUT' when Float On started showing up on mainstream radio and television. Who cares if the song is radio friendly or not? I don't mind that Modest Mouse would kindof like to sell a couple of albums. You know, because it still sounds good, and they got KIDS. I mean, would you stop giving your money to a charity because ZOMGTHAT KID BANGED THOSE ROCKS IN SUCH A SELLOUT WAY!!!!!?
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"Selling out"
« Reply #14 on: 18 Nov 2005, 13:14 »

OH NOES (band) IS ON TEH RADIO WHAT *EVER* WILL I DOOO?
You'll suck it up and get over it, that's what.

I think in popular culture "sold out" is just a term people like to use when they decide that they need something to complain about, and they ALWAYS USE IT AFTER THE FIRST ALBUM. "Oh yeah they were so much better before the second album, they suck now." Then why do you have albums 1 through 543?
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sjbrot

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"Selling out"
« Reply #15 on: 18 Nov 2005, 13:22 »

Ok, well, think about what selling out is: The foresaking of any artistic relevance for financial incentives. That's why this should be legitimate concern.

A popular example would be TV ads using music. Obviously, there are alot of small bands out there who can really use the money, and it's still exposure. On the other hand, the emotional significance of a song can be robbed when you see it being used to hawk useless shit.

There are alot of people who are simply reactionary music fans, who look at any band who makes it big are just in it for a quick buck. It seems to me that music is much less about the experience then a way of creating an identity for themselves.

To end it, I don't care if a band signs to a major or does an ad or comes out with an action figure. In fact, if there was a Beck action figure, I would be gratefull.

Just as long as the artist has the listener in mind when he undertakes any of these things.
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RUMBLEMOOSE

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"Selling out"
« Reply #16 on: 18 Nov 2005, 14:01 »

I too would buy a Beck action figure, or maybe several hundred of them.

On topic: The Velvet Underground was originally just Lou Reed and Sterling Morrison on guitars and Angus Maclise on percussion, but Maclise quit when the other two said they wanted to play shows. To Maclise, making any money from music was selling out, even though that was the most obvious way to actually share music with the people. Is there really a definite line to be drawn here at all, or is the concept of "selling out" completely relative?

On the other side of the ballpark, what if A Popular Underground Metal Band was really just honestly bored with thrash metal and decided that mediocre AOR pap was really exciting unexplored territory? I'm sure it has happened that a band has moved inadvertently in a commercial direction while trying to follow their muse.
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Tomservo

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"Selling out"
« Reply #17 on: 18 Nov 2005, 14:19 »

Oh man, what an awesome idea

I would buy a Beck action figure
They could have a diffrent one for each cd
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RUMBLEMOOSE

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"Selling out"
« Reply #18 on: 18 Nov 2005, 14:24 »

Or four different ones for Sea Change that are all basically the same but with different paint jobs!

Oh yeah, is that selling out-- multiple/collectors' versions of stuff? I've seen lots of bands lately going through literally dozens of limited vinyl pressings of an album, forcing me to shell out extra for a special clear holographic foil-label 130g virgin vinyl release with different artwork and one of three bonus tracks when really I'd just settle for any playable vinyl copy of the album.
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Thrillho

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"Selling out"
« Reply #19 on: 18 Nov 2005, 15:52 »

Quote from: RUMBLEMOOSE
Or four different ones for Sea Change that are all basically the same but with different paint jobs!

Oh yeah, is that selling out-- multiple/collectors' versions of stuff? I've seen lots of bands lately going through literally dozens of limited vinyl pressings of an album, forcing me to shell out extra for a special clear holographic foil-label 130g virgin vinyl release with different artwork and one of three bonus tracks when really I'd just settle for any playable vinyl copy of the album.


See those annoy me, like Gorillaz releasing five editions of their last record at once.

Wilco did a tour edition once, but if you put in a code that came with the original edition then you could still get the bonus songs, which is awesome.
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"Selling out"
« Reply #20 on: 18 Nov 2005, 16:57 »

Quote from: RUMBLEMOOSE
On the other side of the ballpark, what if A Popular Underground Metal Band was really just honestly bored with thrash metal and decided that mediocre AOR pap was really exciting unexplored territory?


I remember that happened to Japunga. They went from being my favorite local metal act, to a fairly uninteresting rock act. A lot of people accused them of selling out, but it wasn't like they did it for a major label record contract or anything, they were just bored I guess. I can respect that, but I haven't really been to a show of theirs since.
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Mrdangerous

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"Selling out"
« Reply #21 on: 19 Nov 2005, 00:29 »

I have some friends who are obsessed with the concept of selling out.  I had an argument with them over a commercial.

Iron & Wine were playing Such Great Heights.  M&M commercial.

They thought what's'is'name...the guy that's Iron & Wine, had sold out.  I said I didn't, then i bought some M&Ms.  Because I like M&Ms.
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TrueNeutral

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"Selling out"
« Reply #22 on: 19 Nov 2005, 03:46 »

Quote from: sjbrot
Just as long as the artist has the listener in mind when he undertakes any of these things.


I disagree. I think that's pretty close to 'selling out', even. If I write a song, I'm going to write what *I* like. I'm not going to write something I'm not passionate about just because I 'have the listener in mind'. I couldn't really care less about the listener.
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ASturge

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"Selling out"
« Reply #23 on: 19 Nov 2005, 04:13 »

Modest Mouse didn't sell out because despite being a little more easy to listen to, GNFPWLBN is still most definatly still Modest Mouse.

I agree with the people say that 'Selling Out' is when a band will make significant changes to their music to cater to the tastes of the mainstream music listener.

Or when a band jumps on the political bandwagon.

I'm looking at you Green Day and System of a Down!
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TrueNeutral

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"Selling out"
« Reply #24 on: 19 Nov 2005, 04:21 »

I thought System was on the political bandwagon from the start.
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"Selling out"
« Reply #25 on: 19 Nov 2005, 04:23 »

i'm pretty sure system of a down have always been on the political bandwagon. green day, not so much.

edit: beaten to it!
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Patrick

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"Selling out"
« Reply #26 on: 19 Nov 2005, 04:44 »

Eh. I can't really give Green Day too much crap about the 'jumping on the political bandwagon' thing. I mean, take a look at the song "Warning". socialcommentaryXcore.
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Luke C

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"Selling out"
« Reply #27 on: 19 Nov 2005, 12:38 »

Quote from: Storm Rider
I define 'selling out' as taking your music in a different direction (often a worse one) so that it will appeal to a greater demographic and thereby earning you more money. It doesn't necessarily have to be something you didn't create.


Very true.

I have so many friends who say "I really likde x band until they became popular".

So what? I like it when a band Ive known since they were very small make it big (eg. Kaiser Chiefs, big the uk at least). Unless the bandgoes hey lets stop making good music to make money (Ive been told Good Charlotte were actually good till they signed to a major label).
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TheLoweringTide

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"Selling out"
« Reply #28 on: 19 Nov 2005, 17:55 »

I liked the concept of "selling out" better before it sold out.
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"Selling out"
« Reply #29 on: 19 Nov 2005, 17:59 »

That sounds like sellout talk to me, buddy
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"Selling out"
« Reply #30 on: 19 Nov 2005, 23:37 »

Quote from: KimJongSick
Eh. I can't really give Green Day too much crap about the 'jumping on the political bandwagon' thing. I mean, take a look at the song "Warning". socialcommentaryXcore.

One song in comparisson to a whole album. It's not political really either, it's anti beurocracy in my books.
SELLOUTZ!!!!11!1!!

Yeah, my favourite band, AFI have been accused of selling out. I guess they did. I still enjoy the music though so it doesn't bother me.
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CHEESEGOD

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"Selling out"
« Reply #31 on: 20 Nov 2005, 00:07 »

Quote from: Spinless

According to a lot of my old friends, I sold out when I started listenning to 'weird' and 'obscure' music. Could they be right?


WUTIF

Anyway, I define selling out as when a band/artist uses their art, music or what have you to get money. Be that endorsing something (unless it's some kind of cause or in very special cases products) or changing what they make to reach a wider audience. Going against you beliefs for money/fame/anything else I think could also be called selling out.

Just in case anyone jumps to conclusions, I am not one of those people who are like "OMGZ SELLOUTZ"
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"Selling out"
« Reply #32 on: 20 Nov 2005, 12:57 »

I hate the term "selling out". Honestly, it jsut pisses me off. All it can really be summed up as is "they suck because they wanted money." Fun fact: EVERYONE wants money. That is why people work. That is why people are happy when they get a pay raise. If someone offered me $100 for a drawing I did, I'd accepy, because hey, free money. Basically, you kind of need money to live.
It is not bad to make money from doing something you love. Even if it's a LOT of money.. it's like taking a job that pays a six-figure salary. If it's you, and you honestly love your job, then that's awesome. Good for you, man.
I define selling out as completely compromising your morals and beliefs for the soul purpose of making money. That is freaking EXTREME. I am talking about shit like advertising for huge corporations or something. To me, only about 5% of bands that people accuse of selling out have actually sold out. Green Day, for example, who aren't even trying because they know that whatever bland anti-american shit they spew out will be eagerly purchased by millions of 14 year old fans. Otherwise, if it's good music, I'll listen to it, regardless of whether or not the artist actually makes money or if it's been on the radio or what.
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"Selling out"
« Reply #33 on: 20 Nov 2005, 14:09 »

<SRG> Metallica sold out in 45 mins :/
<NotOneOfUs> Yeah I know.
<NotOneOfUs> Oh wait
<NotOneOfUs> You mean, like, a concert?
<SRG> yes
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Kai

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"Selling out"
« Reply #34 on: 20 Nov 2005, 18:19 »

That right there wins the thread.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

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"Selling out"
« Reply #35 on: 20 Nov 2005, 18:35 »

Quote from: Kai
That right there wins the thread.

You would say that, sellout...
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"Selling out"
« Reply #36 on: 20 Nov 2005, 18:57 »

<--------------- SELLOUTZ!!! Amirate?
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

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"Selling out"
« Reply #37 on: 20 Nov 2005, 19:28 »

MORE LEIK GAYOUTZ!!!!1!!111 AMIRITE?
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"Selling out"
« Reply #38 on: 20 Nov 2005, 22:18 »

i have just coined a new acronym


YANTWHANO,F


YET ANOTHER THERAD WE HAVE ATLEAST 9459458495849584 ON, FUCK




okay its not your fault, but lets get some stickies going, eh mods?
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Signum_Tenebrae

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Re: "Selling out"
« Reply #39 on: 20 Nov 2005, 22:35 »

Quote from: Zac_The_Ripper
1) As an artist, it is your purpose in life to enlighten as many people as possible, in a way that they would never be able to do on their own.


wrong.
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decklin

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"Selling out"
« Reply #40 on: 21 Nov 2005, 08:49 »

Speaking of! NPR had a good story on, as Dar put it, indie vs. major labels this morning. They closed it with "Soul Meets Body".

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5021206

(which song I do not like, but then, Good News... is my favorite Modest Mouse album so go figure.)
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Re: "Selling out"
« Reply #41 on: 21 Nov 2005, 18:21 »

Quote from: Signum_Tenebrae
Quote from: Zac_The_Ripper
1) As an artist, it is your purpose in life to enlighten as many people as possible, in a way that they would never be able to do on their own.


wrong.



Indeed. As an artist, it is your job to alienate, piss off, and weird/scare the hell out of everybody.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

sjbrot

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"Selling out"
« Reply #42 on: 21 Nov 2005, 20:01 »

Quote from: decklin
Speaking of! NPR had a good story on, as Dar put it, indie vs. major labels this morning.


That just mademe think of the new issue of Rockpile, where one of the guys from K Records was describing the Indie Label Voltron, which I think involved K, Dischord, Touch and Go and one other as lions in the the thing.
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invisibilityshirt

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"Selling out"
« Reply #43 on: 21 Nov 2005, 23:06 »

Quote from: Storm Rider
I define 'selling out' as taking your music in a different direction (often a worse one) so that it will appeal to a greater demographic and thereby earning you more money. It doesn't necessarily have to be something you didn't create. The obvious one is Metallica deciding they liked huge piles of money more than playing good music.


I agree with this (except the bit about Metallica, since they never made good music to start with.... sorry).   All this complaining about Jack White "selling out" because he wrote a song about a product he likes (and making money, as well as possibly getting more people to listen to his records) is bullshit.  I love it when I hear songs by bands I like on TV.
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Bunnyman

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"Selling out"
« Reply #44 on: 22 Nov 2005, 01:51 »

The concept of selling out is about as nebulous as the concept of hipster cred.

It seems, for example, that Britney Spears and other pop artists have somehow become recursively hip in certain hipster circles; it seems that while a certain degree of success is anathema (Interpol?  NC?) superultramegaplatinum success is perfectly legit.  Is this the hipster equivalent of the uncanny valley, or is it just proof that the concept is as fickle as the very concept of taste in music?
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"Selling out"
« Reply #45 on: 22 Nov 2005, 05:17 »

I guess the idea is you can make music for art or for money but never both.
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Re: "Selling out"
« Reply #46 on: 22 Nov 2005, 11:31 »

Bunnyman: "Uncanny Valley" is a great way of describing it.
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