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[Jedit]

That being the collective name I give to the primarily-Scandinavian metal bands of varying stripes who routinely shoot themselves and/or other people and make jewellery out of each other's bones.  What I'd like to know is, what's the difference between Death Metal, Black Metal, and all the other dubious flavours of overbassed songs about killing everyone in the name of/to save them from Satan?

(Yes, I will stop stereotyping now.  )

I'd also like to know why the hell anyone listens to Opeth, but the answer to that is likely to be subjective so don't bother.

[Bastardous Bassist]

I hated Opeth and all the growly vocals bands for a long time.  Everyone I knew was trying to get me to listen to them, but I just didn't see it.  Now I love Opeth.  I gave all the growly vocals bands I have another listen recently, and they're awesome.  I just realize that the vocals are not the melody in this case, rather a rhythmic instrument with but a single pitch.  Now, I don't listen to any of the really harsh stuff, so I can't comment on that.  I just listen to the most popular and accessible groups of the genre.

[amok]

^ I was exactly the same way with Opeth. Initially I only liked the songs from Morningrise which had lots of acoustic bits, especially the last track which is all clean vox. A month later they were my favourite band and I loved every song for years

I love Opeth for being able to do acoustic and metal stuff so well, often in the same song.

[Cartilage Head]

Growly vocals are groovy as long as they are done right..for example,Opeth. Of course,Opeth does everything in the whole world right.Opeth is more than just growly vocals. Looks like SOMEBODY is making unsupported claims about music..alert the mob!

[Bastardous Bassist]

No, I don't think the mob will believe us, because nobody ever makes unsupported claims about music.

[Misereatur]

Growly vocals are groovy as long as they are done right..for example,Opeth.

There are loads and loads of growls in metal. Opeth is using the "low-terrifying" type, which is great for their kind of metal, but not for every kind. Death Metal, Black Metal, Brutal, Grindcore: they all have different types of growls. For example - a high pitch Black Metal scream would be wrong for a Death Metal act such as Opeth, and a Grindcore "low-I-sound-like-a-vomiting-pig"  growl is definetely wrong for thrashy black metal like Absu.
But, You can allways combine, like Soilent Green that uses Death Metal growls, screams and hardcore shouts.

Opeth's growls are great for Opeth, but not for every metal band ever.

[Jedit]

Growly vocals are groovy as long as they are done right..for example,Opeth.

There are loads and loads of growls in metal. Opeth is using the "low-terrifying" type, which is great for their kind of metal, but not for every kind. Death Metal, Black Metal, Brutal, Grindcore: they all have different types of growls. For example - a high pitch Black Metal scream would be wrong for a Death Metal act such as Opeth, and a Grindcore "low-I-sound-like-a-vomiting-pig"  growl is definetely wrong for thrashy black metal like Absu.

I look forward to the 2035 release of a nostalgia compilation entitled Twenty Golden Grindcore Melodies.

But, You can allways combine, like Soilent Green that uses Death Metal growls, screams and hardcore shouts.

Opeth's growls are great for Opeth, but not for every metal band ever.

So, to duck the dialogue on why Opeth are listenable that I asked you not to bother with and get back to my original question of what the difference is between the varying types of Band That Go "Wuurrgggh!", the answer is the tone of the "wuurrgggh!"?

[Storm Rider]

You know, being really really condescending about the entire subject gets on my nerves slightly.

[KharBevNor]

This debate is tired but

Agalloch >>>>>>>> Opeth.

And I don't even hate Opeth like some do.

The question is very annoying and unanswerable. The best answer I can think of is:

Death metal riff:

Code: [Select]


Riff G
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
|------------------9---7----------|------------------10---9-----------|Gtr
|-----7---9---10-----------9---10-|-----7---9---10------------9---10~-|I&II
|-0-0---0---0----0---0---0---0----|-0-0---0---0----0----0---0---0-----|
|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
  . .   .   .    .   .   .   .      . .   .   .    .    .   .   .

|------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
|-------------------12---10---9------|-------------------10---9-----------|Gtr
|-----9---10---12-----------------10-|-----9---10---12------------9---10~-|I&II
|-8-8---8----8----8----8----8---8----|-8-8---8----8----8----8---8---8-----|
|------------------------------------|------------------------------------|
  . .   .    .    .    .    .   .      . .   .    .    .    .   .   .


Black metal Riff:


Riff1:

Code: [Select]


                          1st & 3rd  2nd     4th    time
A|------------------------|-------|-------|4---5--|
E|-0-7-8-0-5-7-0-3-5-0-2-3|0-3-5--|5-3-2--|2---3--|
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . .     . .    

On top of that, death metal uses articulated growls, whereas black metal is normally just screaming as hard as you can, or at least it should be. A good proportion of bands 'cookie monster' their vocals however.  Bad description? Probably. Another one: black metal vocals are (should be) cathartic, emotional, painful. Death metal vocals not so. No, that was crap too.

hmn.

A black metal song:

Burzum - Ea, Lord of the Depths

A death metal song:

Bloodbath - Ominous Bloodvomit

A grindcore song:

Circle of Dead Children - A Family Tree to Hang From

A few favourite tracks of mine to try and illustrate the differences.

If you really want to know, go and listen to some of the stuff. There are countless differences in tone, imagery, musical complexity, influences, philosophy and so forth. I'm kinda dissapointed I uploaded all these before you were so...I dunno. Condescending. Because you can't understand something doesn't make it beneath you. Ah well. Go read wikipedia or something.

[Der Golem]

The differences between these genres are largely atmospherical, so it's almost impossible to explain properly by text. Listen to the songs Khar posted (all of which are awesome by the way), you will be a better person for it and hopefully never feel the need to be annoyingly condescending to metalheads on a forum again.

And Agalloch > Opeth indeed.

[Jedit]

The question is very annoying and unanswerable.

That doesn't bode well.  Subgenres blend often, but there has to be a notable distinguishing feature to even consider them subgenres in the first place.  Otherwise you're just wanking.

The best answer I can think of is:

Death metal riff:

Black metal Riff:

That would probably have been very illustrative if I read sheet music, which right now I don't.  Looks like a lot of effort, though; I appreciate it.

hmn.

A black metal song:

Burzum - Ea, Lord of the Depths

I really hope that song isn't sung in English - I didn't understand a word.  Hard to tell, because as you described it the "singer" is really a "screamer" (and he also seems to be about 30 feet from the mic, though that may be my headphones or the relative noise level of the track).  Apart from that, it sounds pretty much like thrash.  Extreme Judas Priest, if you will.

A death metal song:

Bloodbath - Ominous Bloodvomit

I used to have a Bolt Thrower album (long since given away to a metaller friend) and this sounds kind of like that did.  I still do have a Cathedral track that sounds like this, for that matter.  Probably you'll disparage those two acts for not being hardcore enough, but I think I can pick a death metal act out of a lineup now.

(I see what you mean about the "cookie monstering", too; I kept expecting this guy to start singing "Cookies!  Cookies!  Cookies for Satan!" at any second. )

A grindcore song:

Circle of Dead Children - A Family Tree to Hang From

OK, what the fuck?  Sorry to be dissing one of your favourites so harshly after you were good enough to take the time, but how can anyone call this "music" and keep a straight face?  The other two tracks you uploaded weren't really my thing, but at least they were clearly and discernibly songs performed by people who knew one end of a drumstick from the other.  This sounds like someone dropped a live electric wire into a spastic's bathtub and recorded the results.

I'm kinda dissapointed I uploaded all these before you were so...I dunno. Condescending.

Think how I felt when Misereatur began talking about "the wrong kind of growl for black metal".  A less open-minded person would have assumed he was taking the mickey.  I might have too, had it been April 1st.

Meanwhile, I wasn't being condescending - just not taking the matter too seriously.  "20 Golden Grindcore Melodies" (which is not available in the shops, but call our 1-800 hotline now to order your copy for the low, low price of $19.99) is a recurring gag I pull out whenever the idea of Ronco bastardising and homogenising yet another musical genre is apt.  It usually gets a laugh even without my acting out the lounge piano version of Napalm Death's "You Suffer".

Because you can't understand something doesn't make it beneath you.

Please learn the difference between "don't" and "can't" and when to apply them correctly.

[nescience]

The best answer I can think of is:

Death metal riff:

Black metal Riff:

That would probably have been very illustrative if I read sheet music, which right now I don't.  Looks like a lot of effort, though; I appreciate it.

One way to think about the differences in these figures is that the black metal riff requires slightly more aggressive guitar playing and the death metal riff allows more notes to sustain, giving a "fuller" sound.

Sounds like someone doesn't like metal...

[Cartilage Head]

I suppose a better term would be "shittily supported" as opposed to unsupported..

[KharBevNor]

OK, what the fuck?  Sorry to be dissing one of your favourites so harshly after you were good enough to take the time, but how can anyone call this "music" and keep a straight face?  The other two tracks you uploaded weren't really my thing, but at least they were clearly and discernibly songs performed by people who knew one end of a drumstick from the other.  This sounds like someone dropped a live electric wire into a spastic's bathtub and recorded the results.

Not only is it music, it is extremely complex, technical music with complex tempo and time signature shifts.

It's not that metal subgenres do not have complex, distinguishing features, it is rather that these features are hard to describe, especially to someone who doesn't consider a pretty standard (I've even heard them called 'boring and generic' though I rate them higher) grind song as music. This illustrates that I was, indeed, probably correct in using can't.

The Burzum track is indeed in English. It is quite heavily accented though.

Cathedral and Bolt Thrower? Similiar? Both are great bands, but they're quite different...I suppose you must be talking about early Cathedral? I can see the probable confusion, the vocal styles can be similiar because Bolt Thrower have quite thrashy vocals (ie there's a sort of 'normal' edge to them, like with Cathedrals old doom stuff), but the riffing is totally different. A good key is the tempo.

[Jedit]

One way to think about the differences in these figures is that the black metal riff requires slightly more aggressive guitar playing and the death metal riff allows more notes to sustain, giving a "fuller" sound.

Which would make black metal somewhat more jagged, right?

Sounds like someone doesn't like metal...

It's not my first pick, but I don't run screaming from the room when someone puts it on if that's what you mean.

Not only is it music, it is extremely complex, technical music with complex tempo and time signature shifts.

Which is fine over extended pieces.  Try cramming it into 60 seconds, though, and you'll wind up with a mess - you can't but lose cohesion when you're switching tempo every two bars.

It's not that metal subgenres do not have complex, distinguishing features, it is rather that these features are hard to describe, especially to someone who doesn't consider a pretty standard (I've even heard them called 'boring and generic' though I rate them higher) grind song as music.

I don't see why; grindcore seems to have very little in common with the others.  You could have described it as "death metal at 300bpm" and been within a shout of accurate, though of course you'd still have had to find a way to explain what death metal was.

The Burzum track is indeed in English. It is quite heavily accented though.

Ah, good, it's not just me then.

Cathedral and Bolt Thrower? Similiar? Both are great bands, but they're quite different...I suppose you must be talking about early Cathedral?

I couldn't tell you.  What I can tell you is that the Cathedral track is "Skullflower" and the Bolt Thrower album was (IIRC) their debut album - the one based directly off Warhammer 40,000.

I can see the probable confusion, the vocal styles can be similiar because Bolt Thrower have quite thrashy vocals (ie there's a sort of 'normal' edge to them, like with Cathedrals old doom stuff), but the riffing is totally different. A good key is the tempo.

It's been more than ten years since I palmed that album off.  I honestly don't recall the tempo.

[KharBevNor]

Which would make black metal somewhat more jagged, right?

Well, sort of. Black metal is more of an attitude and an idea than a rigid set of musical rules, though many people do indeed regard it as a rigid set of musical rules. The vocals are a somewhat defining characteristic, but there's a lot more to it than that. I mean, you can get away without the vocals if you do another bit right, and so forth...

Black metal may, but is not obliged to, have the following characteristics:

    * Fast guitars with tremolo picking
    * Lyrics that take the form of Satanic, Pagan, or occult themes which blaspheme Christianity. Bands such as Slayer, Deicide, and Immolation overlap lyrically with black metal somewhat, but are musically defined as death metal (Immolation, Deicide), thrash metal (Slayer)
    * Relatively thin guitar sound or relatively thick guitar sound, usually not in the middle.
    * Limited production used intentionally as a statement against mainstream music and/or to reflect the mood of the music, to create atmosphere. This 'underproduced' effect is often achieved by cutting out low and high frequencies, leaving just the mid frequency range. Very few of the black metal pioneers still do this, since their original limited production only was due to a minimal budget.
    * Fast, aggressive drums, often with blast beats. At other times, the drums can take a slower role usually accompanied by a very dry and empty tone —especially for the effect of the atmosphere of the music.
    * Occasional electronic keyboard use. The harpsichord, violin, organ, and choir settings are most common, which gives the music an orchestral feel or a cathedral-like setting. Some bands tend to use keyboards very frequently, whether it be as an instrument or even as the basis of their entire sound. They are generally placed under the symphonic black metal label.
    * High-pitched/distorted screeching vocals. Contrary to popular belief, these are not essential as there have been many black metal bands old and new employing different vocal styles.
    * Swift percussion.
    * Cold, dark, sad, melancholy, or gloomy atmosphere.

An abraded, very low fidelity recording style is common in most black metal. Modern evolution of many of the older 'genre leading' bands have had a vast change in sound, and by many - and most of the times, even the band - are no longer considered black metal. Such examples include Mayhem's career that began mostly in the death/black roots, moved to almost pure black, then towards death again in their later career. Also, Satyricon who started off as black metal but now play a very industrial heavy hybrid of the music. Modern offshoots of this original black metal sound have incorporated atmospheric elements using ambient guitar and keyboard passages such as organ sounds or other miscellaneous instruments.

A distinct (but not intrinsic) feature of the black metal is the use of corpse paint, a special kind of black and white make-up which was used to make the wearer look like a decomposing corpse or plague victim. It should be noted that Immortal referred to their make-up as "war paint", not carrying the same connotation as corpse paint. Another distinct feature of black metal is the use of dark or Satanic monikers pioneered by Venom (the original line up being Cronos, Mantas & Abbadon). Examples of this are: Quorthon (Bathory), Darken (Graveland), Euronymous (Mayhem), Goat, Count Grishnackh (Burzum), Fenriz (Darkthrone), Nergal, Inferno (Behemoth), Zephyrous (Darkthrone), Frost (1349), Abbath (Immortal), Demonaz (Immortal), Horgh (Immortal), Iscariah, Hellhammer (Mayhem), Maniac (Mayhem), Necrobutcher (Mayhem), Blasphemer (Mayhem), Dead (Mayhem), Hoest, Ihsahn (Emperor), Samoth (Emperor), Faust (Emperor), Trym (Emperor), Nattefrost (Carpathian Forest), Nordavind and Tchort (Emperor), Malefic (Xasthur), Wrest (Leviathan) to name a few.

Earlier bands tended to dwell on themes of fantasy, mythology, and folklore in their songs, as well as Satanism, darkness, evil, and so on as many of their direct musical and cultural roots included these topics.
[edit]

[Storm Rider]

OK, what the fuck?  Sorry to be dissing one of your favourites so harshly after you were good enough to take the time, but how can anyone call this "music" and keep a straight face? This sounds like someone dropped a live electric wire into a spastic's bathtub and recorded the results.

Grindcore is like fine wine...

Wait, I take that back. Grindcore is absolutely nothing like fine wine.

[nescience]

Khar's observation of methods of playing black metal actually remind me that the same tendency was observed in Tony Iommi's playing.  Makes sense, considering Black Sabbath's influence on later bands and all.

[Jedit]

Grindcore is like fine wine...

Wait, I take that back. Grindcore is absolutely nothing like fine wine.

I beg to differ.  I don't like wine either.  That's a point of comparison right there.  

[Trollstormur]

do the following steps in order:

shut the fuck up.

get the fuck out.

[beat mouse]

That being the collective name I give to the primarily-Scandinavian metal bands of varying stripes who routinely shoot themselves and/or other people and make jewellery out of each other's bones.  What I'd like to know is, what's the difference between Death Metal, Black Metal, and all the other dubious flavours of overbassed songs about killing everyone in the name of/to save them from Satan?

(Yes, I will stop stereotyping now.  )

I'd also like to know why the hell anyone listens to Opeth, but the answer to that is likely to be subjective so don't bother.

You don't actually want to know, you just want to insult and hate. Do us all a favour and shut up.

Oh. shit I guess I got beaten to this a few times. I didn't bother reading the thread.

[Outshined]

The reason I enjoy Opeth is because of their unparalleled ability to alternate between musical extremes with a great degree of grace.  They can go from a more rhythmic, textural, "abrasive" sound to the most beautiful melodic passage you have ever heard within the space of a single composition several times and still remain cohesive.  

Also, the cathartic nature of the lyrics appeals to me.

[Rizzo]

Aside from the vocals I actually quite enjoy that grindcore track. It was mean. Vocals... meh but I can mostly ignore that.

[Misereatur]

I'm kinda dissapointed I uploaded all these before you were so...I dunno. Condescending.

Think how I felt when Misereatur began talking about "the wrong kind of growl for black metal".  A less open-minded person would have assumed he was taking the mickey.  I might have too, had it been April 1st.

Meanwhile, I wasn't being condescending - just not taking the matter too seriously.  "20 Golden Grindcore Melodies" (which is not available in the shops, but call our 1-800 hotline now to order your copy for the low, low price of $19.99) is a recurring gag I pull out whenever the idea of Ronco bastardising and homogenising yet another musical genre is apt.  It usually gets a laugh even without my acting out the lounge piano version of Napalm Death's "You Suffer".

Because you can't understand something doesn't make it beneath you.

Please learn the difference between "don't" and "can't" and when to apply them correctly.

My post about "the right growls fot the right metal" was for hey_there_fatty mostly. Because he said that Opeth had the best growls ever, and I wanted to point out that Opeth's growls are great for Opeth, but not for Mayhem for example.

You are condescending.

[Jedit]

You are condescending.

How can I be condescending when I don't consider you inferior and I'm not patronising you?

Something I've said has clearly been misinterpreted along the way, but for the last goddamn time: I am not being condescending.

[Rizzo]

That was pretty condescending dude...





Alright sorry, I'll stop throwing gasoline on the fire. I'm currently listening to Umlaut, Discharge and Bones Brigade. Fuck, I never knew crust was actually good.

[trolley]

Jedit,I actually agree with much of what you've said with regards to not understanding the draw of metal. It just sounds like awful noise to me.

But seriously dude, you're being a dick. Acting superior on the internet makes you a dick.

Please don't be a dick.

[Borondir]

Two very simple things I tell about black metal and death metal and the difference is overrall pitch emphasis and how the music flows.   Death metal is like you said, very bass heavy, even the vocals are generally fairly low pitched.  Black metal on the other hand has higher pitched guitars and often hardly any discernable bass, and of course the vocals tend towards shrieking.  As far as flow, death metal guitars use a lot of palm muting, so its all a bit more jagged and rhythmic, while black metal is almost exclusively tremolo picking, which means more sustained flowing guitar riffs.

Of course there is ideology as well, but I think at this point ideology is largely irrelevant to discussion's of metal, as all of the subgenres have a wide range of ideology.

On your question of why people listen to Opeth, I'd say the wide range of means of musical expression by artists who are obviously fine musicians. I'm a music major who sings in a fairly elite college choir, and I appreciate musicianship in vastly different forms.  I do think Opeth is a bit overrated, like Khar pointed out, there are other good bands doing at least somewhat similar things.

P.S. No offense Khar, while Burzum is a classic of the bm scene, I'm not sure its the best way to introduce someone to the differences between subgenres.

[Jedit]

Two very simple things I tell about black metal and death metal and the difference is overrall pitch emphasis and how the music flows.   Death metal is like you said, very bass heavy, even the vocals are generally fairly low pitched.  Black metal on the other hand has higher pitched guitars and often hardly any discernable bass, and of course the vocals tend towards shrieking.  

Which is helpful, as previously I'd been conflating black metal and death metal when in fact most if not all of what I'd been hearing was death metal and black metal was entirely separate.

 

Of course there is ideology as well, but I think at this point ideology is largely irrelevant to discussion's of metal, as all of the subgenres have a wide range of ideology.

Using ideology to determine musical genre has led to Creed being called the biggest and best band in their genre.  Worse yet, this is broadly accurate.  So let's paraphrase Bill Hicks's comments on how most great rock musicians aren't the kind of people you take home for tea and leave the dross to face the full field of competition:

"Borondir, that man scares me, he's got eight-inch spikes on his armbands and a codpiece made from his dead mother's skull!"

"SHUT UP, JEDIT, AND LISTEN TO HIM PLAY!!!"

 

On your question of why people listen to Opeth, I'd say the wide range of means of musical expression by artists who are obviously fine musicians.

I didn't really want or need that question answering.  It's a matter of taste, plain and simple.  Personally I think they're the auditory equivalent of a mugging; others will of course disagree (or they like being mugged), as is their right.

[BeoPuppy]

Nah, you're right there, Opeth are bad.

And I don't get the difference either.

However, I would like to question the need for labelling anyway. Just like bands. It's much easier.

[KharBevNor]

P.S. No offense Khar, while Burzum is a classic of the bm scene, I'm not sure its the best way to introduce someone to the differences between subgenres.

Yeah, but I'm not sure what IS. Immortal (possibly 'Grim and Frostbitten Kingdoms' was the only other serious option I was considering, but I thought Burzum made a nice, definite contrast with the other stuff, whereas Immortal might have been harder to discern apart.

Also, ironically* Jed, Borondir is probably the least likely person I can think of who knows his metal and would be wearing a skull codpiece.

People who question the need for labelling can go away and play with themselves. It's an integral part of music criticism, if nothing else.

*well, not really, but hey.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

-death metal: slower drums usually super growly vocals
-black metal: blast beats (inhumanly fast drums) and fast high screamy vocals

those are just my generalizations and observations. theres more obviously, but this just a quick explanation.

[Jedit]

Also, ironically* Jed, Borondir is probably the least likely person I can think of who knows his metal and would be wearing a skull codpiece.

Not Borondir, the artist.  If you haven't heard the original Hicks, here's the quote:

I want my children to listen to people who fucking rocked. I don't care if they died in puddles of their own vomit. I want someone who plays from his fucking heart. "Mommy, mommy, the man that Bill told me to listen to has a blood bubble on his nose!" Shut up and listen to him play!  

The New Kids [on the Block]! "Hi we're the New Kids and we're so good and clean-cut..." (performs mock fellatio on the mike) "We're so clean cut!" Seig Heil! Heil! Heil! A good clean country... Heil! Heil! Heil! (more mock fellatio)

Fuck that! I want my rock stars dead! I want them to fucking play with one hand and put a gun in their other fucking hand and go "I hope you enjoy the show!" (imitates shooting himself in the head) Yes! Yes! Play from your fucking heart!

...I am available for children's parties by the way...

[Bastardous Bassist]

I didn't really want or need that question answering.  It's a matter of taste, plain and simple.  Personally I think they're the auditory equivalent of a mugging; others will of course disagree (or they like being mugged), as is their right.

Oh man, if you think Opeth sound like getting mugged, then I ask you not to listen to the more brutal stuff.  It might actually damage you!

Nah, you're right there, Opeth are bad.

Now, you may dislike Opeth, but they are clearly much more competent musicians than a good number of bands that are far more successful than they.  I'm not saying they're the best out there, so don't interpret what I'm saying as that and reply saying, "But [band x] is far better than they are, and [band x] is more popular, too!"  Sometimes good musicians get popular, for no apparent reason.  I think the record company sometimes fucks up and signs someone who's actually good.

[Soidanae]

I like Opeth, not one of my favorites, but they don't cause me to weep in pain.  Their lack of a good solid flow in songs kind of annoys me, however...I do enjoy it when my songs are a coherent, flowing whole...but it isn't o bad.  I really dislike Opeth's growls.

And it's not that I dislike that style, either.  Amon Amarth, Demonoid, and Sirenia all use growls and do a magnificent job with them...it just feels like Opeth growl has one possibly vocal pitch and doesn't do emotion very well, while the others...the growling is an actual voice as opposed to wuuuuuuurgh.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Well, it's better than a lot of his singing.  Sometimes the singing sounds passable, but most of the time, it's really poor.  In fact, it's probably about on the level of the singing in "indie" music.  It sounds similarly unsupported and tonally deficient, while staying somewhere in the vacinity of the intended pitch.

[Cartilage Head]

I for one believe that Mikael Akerfelt has a HELL of a rough and clean voice! But that is just me. Is it necessary to actually quote the ENTIRE post that somebody JUST posted? Come on,fellows. Let us be civilized.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Sometimes it sounds amazing.  On Blackwater Park I'd actually place the sounding great at more than not, so I take back the statement that said he sounded bad most of the time.  There are times where his clean vocals just sound horrible.  Also, I remember somebody sending me something from their softer (maybe all acoustic?) album with him doing only clean vocals (back when I couldn't stand the rough vocals), and I remember it sounding really poor.  I might still have it on my computer.

Edit:  I don't.

[Soidanae]

I actually like his clean vocie (ghost reveries and blackwater) far better than his roar.  I might actually listen to the albums more if it was all clean.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Just listen to the beginning of "Dirge for November."  That's what I'm talking about when it sounds bad.  Sure, he's singing softly, but any singers can probably back me up that it's still important to support your voice so that it doesn't sound like ass.  Hell, it's more important to focus on it when you're singing soft, because when singing loud, it support just comes easier.

[KharBevNor]

I want my children to listen to people who fucking rocked. I don't care if they died in puddles of their own vomit. I want someone who plays from his fucking heart. "Mommy, mommy, the man that Bill told me to listen to has a blood bubble on his nose!" Shut up and listen to him play!  

The New Kids [on the Block]! "Hi we're the New Kids and we're so good and clean-cut..." (performs mock fellatio on the mike) "We're so clean cut!" Seig Heil! Heil! Heil! A good clean country... Heil! Heil! Heil! (more mock fellatio)

Fuck that! I want my rock stars dead! I want them to fucking play with one hand and put a gun in their other fucking hand and go "I hope you enjoy the show!" (imitates shooting himself in the head) Yes! Yes! Play from your fucking heart!

...I am available for children's parties by the way...

Of course I've heard Hicks. That's a pretty loose quote.

[Jedit]

Of course I've heard Hicks. That's a pretty loose quote.

Wasn't quoting, I was paraphrasing.  And I had to add the ref to myself for clarity.

Besides, any excuse to quote Bill Hicks.

[Borondir]

I totally agree on the voice thing. Too many metal and indie singers have no idea how to properly project. They think singing breathily is how to sing quietly, which just doesn't work.  Also I've noticed that falsettists, like in power metal, usually project very well, but when metal singers descend into the lower part of the voice it almost always is unsupported and therefore barely in tune.

I think Akerfeldt has improved on his clean vocals, personally, though sometimes they are still a bit weak.

[Johnny C]

They think singing breathily is how to sing quietly, which just doesn't work.

Unless, of course, they want to sound breathy.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Yeah, but it just ends up sounding unsupported and out-of-tune.  To sound breathy (not sing breathily) requires something different.

[Misereatur]

No one here has ever listned to Dornenreich, right?
This is what a breathy vocalist should sound like.

[Cartilage Head]

Sam Beam is the god at singing softly. Every song he has written contains soft,clean vocals,and it always sounds amazing. By the way,Damnation and Still Life are probably the best Opeth albums for hearing Mike sing clean.

[supatyouKERI]

I'm just not a metal person.
Never have been. Screamo, eh. Pop rock, yes. Metal, no.

I was exposed to korn at an early age. I blame my distaste for metal on that.

[Bastardous Bassist]

Well, so was I, but then I actually heard metal, and said "Wait, so Korn wasn't metal, and metal doesn't suck massive +3 donkey dongs of faggotry?"

[jeph]

Labeling, genre debate, etc. have little to no bearing on the music itself. They exist solely for simplifying the process of TALKING about music.

Personally, I probably wouldn't like metal if I weren't a guitarist (or drummer, probably). It's fun to play, challenging, and inventive. Much as I love the indie rock, most of it honestly isn't that tough to play, guitar-wise (notable exceptions, and this would probably make a whole other thread because there are TONS of good guitarists in indie rock today: The Joggers, Minus the Bear, Deerhoof, Don FUCKING Caballero).

The thing I like most about metal (particularly death and progressive metal bands like Opeth) is how unhip it is. It's inherently goofy and extreme and over the top, which are qualities I honestly enjoy in music. Listening to some dude shred his vocal cords while some blazing diminished-scale solo plays over blastbeats? Completely ridiculous. Also completely awesome.

I am, however, still completely pissed at Opeth for the damn guitar solo in Blackwater Park. It's the only part of that song I can't play and it is hard as HELL.[/i]