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J. Jacques Doesn't Care About Black People: A Hip-Hop Thread
no one special:
Few things I wanna say:
1) I think est has been pretty spot-on with what he's saying.
2) T.I. is an amazing lyricist.
wut u know about dat
wut u know about dat
wut u know about dat
i know all about dat[/list:u] wait... nope, I was wrong.
3) Someone mentioned crunk being big up here in NorCal... but to tell the truth, hyphy music is WAY more popular.
Just look at how E-40's new record is doing... since hyphy is a NorCal creation, kids relate to it more, so it's pretty huge up here. That said, as far as hip-hop goes, it still has too many of the same negative messages... *sigh*
4) re: hip-hop vs. rock -
The main difference between their influences is a matter of connection and relation. With rock, we may connect to the lyrics or music, but it's not necessarily a reflection of the rock star's life, i.e. we don't relate to the rock star lifestyle. None of us ever looked at Motley Crue or GNR or U2 and said "I identify with their life story - they came from the same place where I came from." The whole "rock star lifestyle" is meant to be a fantasy, and not meant to be reality-based or at all true-to-life.
With hip-hop, not only does the art puport to be true-to-life, but a lot of the artists are coming from the same situations that their target audience comes from: inner city, bad neighborhoods, little money, often no father (NOT stereotyping - it's actually a big problem in the Black community). So a lot of inner-city Black kids see these rappers as role models - someone who comes from the same situation and made it - and with a lack of a father figure (for some, not all), the influence is even stronger. For we adults who choose to do so, we can see gangsta rap as an "artistic choice" and not take it so literally.
So with the younger kids who see the rap game as a way to make it out of the ghetto, it's more seen being closer to reality, and with little other surrounding influence encouraging them to become educated and become more than they are, they're much more likely to emulate that gangsta lifestyle.
Rubby:
Don’t mean to start an argument here, but what about the hundreds of rock artists who don’t play up the rock star lifestyle and who make songs relevant to their target audience? There are a lot of them you know.
KharBevNor:
What about nerdcore?
It is obvious I think that there were overall generalisations being made there. He's talking about the mainstream.
no one special:
Indeed - there were generalizations being made about rock, as there were about rap, that were necessary to make a point. I'm basically just talking about what's "popular" right now, mainstream stuff. As this thread has shown, gangsta rap is by no means representative of rap as a genre - it's simply what's selling right now.
In terms of connecting to and influencing an audience, I think rap music has something over other genres. Throughout much of its history, it's told the stories of the downtrodden, the stories of inner-city Black people and what they have to go through and experience, something that wasn't represented in the music world. To have music that finally relates to your situation, something you can really connect to on a basic level, is pretty rare, and so is quite powerful.
What I'm trying to get across is kind of difficult to explain. For most Black people growing up, pretty much every medium - television, movies, music, even print - was dominated by the majority culture. Basically, you have to imagine looking around and seeing hardly who looks like you, who's had similar experiences as you - trust me, it's an alienating experience. That alienation, combined with frustrations about inner city life, was part of what brought rap music around in the first place. To finally see your people making songs about your situation and the problems you face -- problems that America wants to ignore and sweep under the rug -- and seeing it in a musical style that you can call your own - that's heady stuff. Giving voice to the voiceless - that's what made rap so powerful.
That power and influence is still present in the inner cities of America. Most inner-city Black kids are pretty much listening to hip-hop as their main genre. The problem is that now the messages of the mainstream acts are all about sex and drugs. I'm not saying that rock hasn't been the same way (again, Motley Crue, GNR), but the way it's told is way different.
The Crue never explicitly said "I sold drugs on my way to the top, it's how I got quick money" - many gangsta rappers, on the other hand (Biggie, Jay-Z, 50 Cent, WC, just to name a few) have essentially said that exact thing. And the kids hearing this are seeing the drug dealers every day, driving around in Benz's and BMW's, so it's just getting into their heads even more that dealing drugs is a great way to get easy money. Never mind that it's also a great way to get DEAD.... Without getting into all of it, the main problem is the glorification of those problems (drugs, violence) which are plaguing the inner cities. And don't even get me started on the misogyny... "boys will be boys" is one thing, but rock music was never as overtly explicit and derogatory as mainstream rap has become.
Of course, there are lots more factors involved on many different sides of the issue, but i'm trying to keep it relatively short (LOL). So yeah, that's why rap so damned influential.
Johnny C:
--- Quote from: many people ---the rap from "Holiday Inn"
--- End quote ---
I just realized that, really, this isn't a great example. Consider Kanye West's "Diamonds From Sierra Leone" remix. The following is an excerpt from Kanye's verse:
...these ain't 'Conflict Diamonds'
Is they Jacob? Don't lie to me, man
See, a part of me say keep shinin'
How? When I know what a 'Blood Diamond' is
Though it's thousands of miles away
Sierra Leone connected to what we go through today
Over here, it's a drug trade, we die from drugs
Over there, they die from what we buy from drugs
The diamonds, the chains, the bracelets, the charms-es
I thought my Jesus piece was so harmless
'Til I seen a picture of a shorty armless
And consider Jay Z's guest rap:
The chain remains, the game is intact
The name is mine, I'll take the blame for that
The pressure's on, but guess who ain't gon' crack?
Pardon me, I had to laugh at that
How could you falter, when you the Rock of Gibraltar
I had to get off the boat, so I could walk on water
This ain't no tall order, this is nothing to me
Difficult takes a day, impossible takes a week
I do this in my sleep
I sold kilos of coke, I'm guessin' I could sell CDs
I'm not a business-man, I'm a business, man!
So as you can see, guest raps are probably statistically poor places to typically cull socially conscious rap from. Jay-Z had plenty of opportunity to Say Something there but he ignored it. And frankly, that rap is killer, although the Jesus comparison has nothing to do with the rest of the song.
I understand the argument has nothing to do, really, with "Holiday Inn," but rather the values Luda espouses (or fails to) therein. However, I just wanted to point this out.
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