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Author Topic: drugs: visual art versus audible art  (Read 24915 times)

Cernunnos

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:17 »

Being both an artist and music lover, I have noticed a really odd phenomenon. While some artists did drugs, it seems like most rock musicians do. and while i don't know about the forefront of avant garde today, it does seem like Primus, Mr. bungle and the like seem to be very drug- driven, while those who are part of the visual art avant garde are far less likely to be on, say, LSD. for most art people, we seem to draw the line at Marijuana. at least the ones i know. but that's neither here nor there, since i am referring to drug uses that   informs the making of art, not just casual drug use. the recent art movements that i am aware of are based on formal explorations, social issues/politics... that kind of thing. however, ever since the beginning of rock and roll, drugs have been an integral part of inspiring music. whereas, the famous artists, with the exclusion of the pop artists(more or less) did not use them for that. for instance, while elvis was on painkillers, jackson pollock and rothko preferred alcohol as their drug of choice. am i right here? is there really a difference between the way visual artists and audio artists alter their states of consciousness, or am i just crazy?
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Kai

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« Reply #1 on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:21 »

Firstoff, I'd like to mention: Mike Patton and his little Mr. Bungle actually don't do drugs. Crazy, huh? Primus though. I'm not commenting.



And I'm just going to answer this with a little statement: Some people do drugs. Some of these people happen to be artists, musicians, accountants, programmers, truck drivers, etc. Some of them use different drugs than others. Some don't use drugs at all.


Also, on avant garde: Usually you can tell when some artist is on drugs if you're familiar with the stuff; just sort of a natural thing. Some avant garde guys are, some aren't. Same with regular rock, art, whatever.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Cernunnos

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #2 on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:22 »

well put. maybe i am crazy then. edited: i guess it just seems like musicians use them more than visual artists. is this a misconception? at the very least they tend to use different ones. but yeah. i really appreciate those artists who don't use drugs at all(Zappa, etc.).
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Thrillho

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #3 on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:25 »

Some people need drugs to enhance their artistry, some don't. Some people use them entirely separately without it being related to their music in any way, some people's music is harmed by them using drugs separately.

Personally, I find I've got no (decent) songs out of alcohol, but I've got better ones from a lack of it.

However, I think that if anything, visual artistry would benefit more from drugs because you could paint the visions you got on LSD. However, at the same time, I think visual artistry has much more of a requirement for having creativity in the first place and not NEEDING drugs to be able to paint something great, for example.
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Misereatur

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #4 on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:36 »

Some artists use drugs to explore parts of their mind and psyche so they would be able to express themselfs better through art. Altough, some artists take drugs for entirly wrong reasons and destroy everything they create (40's-50's Bebop artists come to mind. Where it was "acceptable" to be a junky. Although most of them were clean during recordings) . You have to understand that diffarent people react diffarent to drugs (MJ included). So, while one artist benifits from the occasional use of a certin drug, it might be devastating for another artist.
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valley_parade

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« Reply #5 on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:52 »

I believe Gustav Ejstes said the latest Dungen album was fueled by not much more than locking himself in the studio with a bunch of booze and weed.
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timehat

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #6 on: 06 Jun 2006, 07:52 »

I know that nobody here has made this argument yet, but I get upset when people say things like "drugs are a creative copout; if you were truly creative, you wouldn't need them to have ideas." First of all, that sort of argument operates under the assumption that the artist has no ideas without drugs, which is ridiculous. Secondly, it doesn't take into account the fact that chemical states in the brain are constantly being altered through natural processes, so really, there is no such thing as a single, easily definable "sober" mental state. So really, taking drugs is just a way to have a different experience, and without experience and perception, there would be no artistic ideas in the first place. It's as if you banned religious fervor from the realm of things that are allowed to be inspiring just because its too powerful. Thirdly, it's art, not an Olympic competition. "Oh no, Steve Vai was using anabolic steroids to enhance his tap-sweeps! Disqualified!"
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Cernunnos

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #7 on: 06 Jun 2006, 08:01 »

wow. this is awesome. everyone has intelligent things to say. it's nice to find a forum like this one.
it is indeed not a competition in which drugs are cheating. they seem to be par for the course for many. to each his own, i say
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Action_franky

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Re: drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #8 on: 06 Jun 2006, 08:04 »

Quote from: Cernunnos
for most art people, we seem to draw the line at Marijuana.


don't be so sure, as a art student i can say that mant artist use drugs but not all do them for inspiration.  i enjoy cannabis but when i smoke and paint my work becomes less focused on any real human experience.

i and many of my artist friends have tryed things other than Mj.  it really depends on the persons own personal wants or feelings about drugs.
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Action_franky

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #9 on: 06 Jun 2006, 08:08 »

Quote from: Cernunnos
well put. maybe i am crazy then. edited: i guess it just seems like musicians use them more than visual artists. is this a misconception? at the very least they tend to use different ones. but yeah. i really appreciate those artists who don't use drugs at all(Zappa, etc.).


i see this as a misconception because visual artist are rarely in the spotlight like a musician would be.  so as such any drug use would be far less apparent.
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Cernunnos

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« Reply #10 on: 06 Jun 2006, 08:21 »

well put. i should say, the artists i know have tried other things, but really just stick to the cannabis and alcohol. and don't really use them for inspiration. maybe to make the art theyr'e looking at more interesting, though. and i know alot of artists. being in art school does that. this is not to say that artists don't use drugs to inspire their work, because obviously some do. it just seems like they do it alot less. and as for exposure, you may be right. we visual artists don't really get as much media coverage when we go into rehab.
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Kai

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« Reply #11 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:17 »

Yeah, my experience with people on drugs personally is that they're dull, boring, hazy, lazy fuckers.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Houdinimachine

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #12 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:30 »

Unless the drug is alcohol. Then, if they're my roomies from Cali, they turn into a three ring circus of entertainment.

Artists can do whatever drugs they want. Just as long as it doesn't kill them. I'm still pissed that Mitch Hedberg was dumb enough to go over the line.
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KharBevNor

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #13 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:33 »

Some people just do better on drugs. Ewigkeit's albums, for example, are becoming steadily more pedestrian since Mr. Fog stopped using drugs (heavily), though, to be fair, pedestrian Ewigkeit still sounds like total tripped out shit, and I don't think the paranoia will EVER go away.

Also, why do you differentiate between alcohol and other drugs? Just because alcohol is more normal or socially acceptable doesn't make it not a drug. There's also a cultural aspect: music is more intricately linked to the drug culture, like pop art, whereas traditional and conceptual art has more...pretension? Still, many great artists and poets have been alcoholics, or opium addicts. Many more have simply been terribly mentally unstable. Lovecraft couldn't have written without his nightmares any more than Coleridge could have written without his opium. Everyone has different sources of inspiration, and different reasons to take drugs: some people don't relate their use of drugs or alcohol to their work, others make it integral. Some experimental musicians, writers and artists have deliberately used drugs as a means of pushing the boundaries of art (Coil's album 'Loves Secret Domain', apparently produced within one ritualised LSD trip, instantly comes to mind.) Other creative persons have created great works of art, literature or music about drugs (Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas anyone?).

I think you're creating a false dichotomy anyway. Also, I am a dull, boring lazy fucker, and I don't do (many) drugs.
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Kai

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« Reply #14 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:34 »

Fear and Loathing really is pretty much my favorite book ever.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Houdinimachine

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« Reply #15 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:37 »

Quote from: KharBevNor
Some people just do better on drugs. Ewigkeit's albums, for example, are becoming steadily more pedestrian since Mr. Fog stopped using drugs (heavily), though, to be fair, pedestrian Ewigkeit still sounds like total tripped out shit, and I don't think the paranoia will EVER go away.

Also, why do you differentiate between alcohol and other drugs? Just because alcohol is more normal or socially acceptable doesn't make it not a drug. There's also a cultural aspect: music is more intricately linked to the drug culture, like pop art, whereas traditional and conceptual art has more...pretension? Still, many great artists and poets have been alcoholics, or opium addicts. Many more have simply been terribly mentally unstable. Lovecraft couldn't have written without his nightmares any more than Coleridge could have written without his opium. Everyone has different sources of inspiration, and different reasons to take drugs: some people don't relate their use of drugs or alcohol to their work, others make it integral. Some experimental musicians, writers and artists have deliberately used drugs as a means of pushing the boundaries of art (Coil's album 'Loves Secret Domain', apparently produced within one ritualised LSD trip, instantly comes to mind.) Other creative persons have created great works of art, literature or music about drugs (Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas anyone?).

I think you're creating a false dichotomy anyway. Also, I am a dull, boring lazy fucker, and I don't do (many) drugs.


I don't differentiate. I called alcohol a drug. But trust me, I've been around stoners and I've been around those same stoners when drunk. They turn into the "I love you, man!" guy when drunk. They turn into lazy asses when they're stoned. I'm sure there's some other drug that has the same effect as alcohol on them but they don't do anything other than pot and alcohol and even then in moderation.
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KharBevNor

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #16 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:39 »

Quote from: Kai
Fear and Loathing really is pretty much my favorite book ever.


It is a fine book indeed. My copy has some fucking wicked Steadman illustrations.
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Kai

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« Reply #17 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:40 »

Yeah, I have the steadman illustrations in mine, too. That man can draw some twisted shit.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

Lines

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« Reply #18 on: 06 Jun 2006, 09:45 »

seriously...it dependson the person. more of my non-art friends are more into drugs than my art friends and about half of everyone is involved with alcohol. personally, the only things i do are occasionally smoke cigarettes and maybe have a drink. but seriously...that's it. i hate drugs and won't ever do them. i'd rather get inspiration from thinks like life and dreams and things i see or read. i have yet to meet someone totally dependent on substances for inspiration.

the only think i noticed is that if you're involved in any form of art, i.e. visual, aural, or literature, you probably smoke or have smoked some form of tobacco at least once in your life.

and i think the reason you hear more about musicians doing drugs is because they are more in the spotlight in terms of publicity. music is a mass art form, whereas most visual art is not, so people tend to know more about musicians than they do artists.
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Rubby

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #19 on: 06 Jun 2006, 10:04 »

With personal experience I’ve found that drugs don’t help in the creative process at all, quite the opposite actually. I’ve gone to a few band practices and such while stoned and made a complete ass of myself. I’d forget entire parts of songs, or look at the chords written out for me and take a second to remember where a certain note is. As far a writing material goes, you can forget that as well. If I had written something while stoned, I would listen to the scratch recording the next night and realize it either sounds like shit, or I ripped it off someone else.

This is just personal experience of course and I can’t speak for other musicians out there, but I just thought I’d share my $0.02 with you all considering the topic.

Also keep in mind that this is all just pot (I’ve actually found to my surprise that I’m a quite competent player while slightly drunk and always drink a little before shows to ease my nerves). I’ve forced myself to stop doing anything “heavier” than pot because of some very pour life choices in my past.
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Cernunnos

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« Reply #20 on: 06 Jun 2006, 11:17 »

i did not mean that alcohol was not a drug; it most certainly is one, and a powerful one at that. i guess i differentiate because it has an entirely different, yet related effect on creative output than most psychadelic drugs, opiates, etc. sorry to confuse.

on a sidenote, did i spell psychadelic right?
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timehat

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #21 on: 06 Jun 2006, 11:21 »

I was something of a druggie some years back, and during that time I partook in a notable quantity and variety of drugs, nothing record breaking, but still notable. At some point I noticed that drugs began to lose their euphoric effects on me, at a certain point I had to stop smoking pot because I would begin to feel terrible physically and mentally. I have also noticed that my ability to play music while high is drastically reduced, this wasn't always the case, but now I pretty much play sober or don't play. On the other hand, I would say that my creative approach is very informed by the time I spent using drugs, because a lot of the experiences I had were so powerful that they permanently affected my outlook in certain areas.
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onewheelwizzard

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« Reply #22 on: 06 Jun 2006, 12:15 »

I'm currently on what I'm fairly certain will be the tail end of a highly psychedelic phase of my life (I averaged about one mushroom or LSD trip per month between January 2005 and April 2006, but nowadays I'm a bit less interested) and I frankly feel like a much more mentally and creatively active person for it.  But I didn't use the drugs for direct inspiration.  I'm barely up to amateur level when it comes to making music and my dubious talent at visual arts is even less practiced, so the results of any drug-inspired creative expression would reflect this.  But I've found that the psychedelic state (which, after the amount of tripping I've done, I can easily and consciously approach if I smoke good weed) doesn't give me ideas directly as much as it allows me to more clearly express ideas that I can't really fully think through in a sober state.

I like to think that using drugs in this fashion is a good idea.  It certainly has given me positive results so far ... I feel worlds more conscious of my own thinking and the processes by which I create art of any sort than I think I would without having used drugs.  I think my relationship with myself and the world has become a closer one, or at least I'm now more able to notice and reverse myself when I take it down the wrong direction.  But while I feel that my life has been enriched by my drug use, I don't think I can really say that I've become more creative for it.  I've just become more in touch with the creativity that was already there.  It comes to the same thing in the end because I think my creative output is greater now, but I think it's important for me to recognize that it's not a direct result of the drugs, and that I'm responsible for deciding to take my drug experiences in that direction.

On the visual/audio art phenomenon that's been pointed out, well, I think it's safe to say that the culture surrounding visual art is very, very different from the culture surrounding musical art.  Visual artists are "supposed" to create work that reflects their surroundings (or at least I've seen a tendency towards this idea) and it's very hard to give credit to a visual artist who uses something as intensely personalized as an LSD experience to inform their work, because art critics tend to see that as a sort of pollution of the artist's vision.  It's not really an acceptable idea in mainstream art nowadays that drug-enhanced art is really only enhanced through the process of bringing the artist in touch with himself, instead of being inspired by a substance that the artist is using as a creative crutch.  If a visual artist wants to use hallucinogens to enhance their artwork, they can't allow too much imagery directly relating to the drugs without being discredited in the eyes of those who see drugs as crutches.

Musicians, on the other hand, are not restricted (except by the harshest of critics) to art that "reflects" anything outside of themselves.  Only a minority of musicians are even thought of as being better for having expressed a statement about their surroundings.  Most are lauded merely for their originality or their technique.  As such, when musicians use drugs, people are more likely to see their output as originally inspired and drug-*enhanced* instead of the other way round, which is how visual artists are often seen.

This is all compounded, I think, by the idea that hallucinogens are primarily visually-stimulating drugs.  This is absolutely not the case.  Musicians can convey the "visions" they experience on halluciongens just as easily and purely as visual artists.  One of the most intense psychedelic trips I ever took had virtually no visual component at all and I went through the majority of it without any sort of visual distortion or hallucination whatsoever.  There's a lot more to hallucinogens than just seeing shit.

Yeesh.  Can you tell I care about this stuff?
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timehat

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #23 on: 06 Jun 2006, 12:35 »

Yeah, that always bothered me. I'd come into contact with less mentally aware druggies who would just be like "I love trippin' out and seeing weird visuals." Yawn. I mean, yeah the visuals can be awesome, but if that's all you're after, you're missing out.
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Synchronicity

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #24 on: 06 Jun 2006, 22:21 »

Quote from: iamyourpirate

the only think i noticed is that if you're involved in any form of art, i.e. visual, aural, or literature, you probably smoke or have smoked some form of tobacco at least once in your life.


Hmm, I guess I must be the exception to the rule.


I can't say that I feel like taking drugs is "cheating" because I take ADD and anxiety meds and although they don't change my way of making art, they do give me new perspectives on the world. I wouldn't want to do [illigel] drugs no matter the reason, but that's my view and I don't hold anything against those who make different choices unless those choices cause them to do direct harm to others.
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sac_magic

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« Reply #25 on: 07 Jun 2006, 02:03 »

I notice that no one has mentioned some of the more overt stimulants like ecstacy or amphetamines. I find that while making me far more unfocused, they can produce some pretty interesting results in terms of finding it easier to express what was already there.
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Kai

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« Reply #26 on: 07 Jun 2006, 06:03 »

Quote from: Synchronicity
Quote from: iamyourpirate

the only think i noticed is that if you're involved in any form of art, i.e. visual, aural, or literature, you probably smoke or have smoked some form of tobacco at least once in your life.


Hmm, I guess I must be the exception to the rule.


I am too. The only "drug" I actually take is caffeine (bcause coffee is pretty much my favorite drink ever). I find it just makes my guitar playing and whatnot more focused. Like a mini-ritalin or something. Because I swear I have an acute ADD but I don't care enough to actually get diagnosed.
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

McTaggart

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« Reply #27 on: 07 Jun 2006, 06:28 »

Come to Australia, where anyone can be diagnosed ADHD*.

I'm also an exception to iamyourpirates observation. The actually artistic subset of the people I know who dabble in the arts tend to be far on the cleaner side. The people who just draw pretty pictures and play their favourite bands' songs are more often the other sort.



*note: I'm am in no way saying that ADHD or any other behavioural or mental disorder doesn't exist.
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timehat

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #28 on: 07 Jun 2006, 11:45 »

Quote from: Kai
I swear I have an acute ADD but I don't care enough to actually get diagnosed.


I think that's probably the ultimate diagnosis right there.
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« Reply #29 on: 07 Jun 2006, 11:53 »

Quote from: Synchronicity
I can't say that I feel like taking drugs is "cheating" because I take ADD and anxiety meds and although they don't change my way of making art, they do give me new perspectives on the world. I wouldn't want to do [illigel] drugs no matter the reason...

There's a contradiction there.  One could argue that these drugs giving you "new perspectives on the world" necessarily influences the way you make art.  That said, while the effect is more pronounced, many "illegal" drugs bring about fundamentally similar alterations of perspective more than anything else.
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Synchronicity

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« Reply #30 on: 07 Jun 2006, 17:55 »

Quote from: Aneurhythmia
Quote from: Synchronicity
I can't say that I feel like taking drugs is "cheating" because I take ADD and anxiety meds and although they don't change my way of making art, they do give me new perspectives on the world. I wouldn't want to do [illigel] drugs no matter the reason...

There's a contradiction there.  One could argue that these drugs giving you "new perspectives on the world" necessarily influences the way you make art.  That said, while the effect is more pronounced, many "illegal" drugs bring about fundamentally similar alterations of perspective more than anything else.


I see what you're saying about the contradiction, and you really are right (I was literally half asleep when I wrote that and when I read it now I don't know what I was thinking.) Personally, I don't feel that my art has changed directly from being put on meds, but perhaps the changes that they have made in my life (like me having much more free time and being happier) have. It's hard to analyze one's own life.
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Sckitzo

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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #31 on: 07 Jun 2006, 20:31 »

Alot of good points in this thread, I honestly don't know how I feel about it one way or another but what did keep popping into my mind was maybe, alot of people who are the creators of audio art (and visual to a point) are more exposed to drugs, we all hear about the latest mainstream artist, or star getting busted for drug charges, and I'm sure we have all heard at least one person (Steve Tyler comes to mind for me) talk about how drugs were all around him when he started to come into his fame.

Not sure what I'm trying to say really, maybe its that alot of artists start using drugs becuase it is easy to get? Meh sounds sorta BS now but I know I had an idea in there :S
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drugs: visual art versus audible art
« Reply #32 on: 08 Jun 2006, 04:18 »

I may step on a few toes here, but two cents being what they are....

I get very suspicious of any type of performer or creative type who stakes their creativity on substance use and/or dependency. It seems like an out or an excuse in some senses.  Again, that is only based on my own experiences and a certain reluctance in the belief that there is an outlet to plug into that lies beyond one's own creativity.  It is a slippery slope that seems to be entirely transient.  While in some cases, and often I think by mere chance, some interesting things can happen in the early stages of drug use and creativity, it eventually becomes in some cases a barrier to that creativity in the sense that there can often be a distinct lack of focus found in how that creativity is presented. Also, if you place your importance on the substance, how do you recapture that so called 'magic' beyond the use of those substances?  This is where that dependency becomes a sort of crutch and eventually, more important than the work itself.  Is that the difference between indulgence and abuse?  I don't know.

Not even mentioning the side effects of course.  For every Jerry Garcia there is a Hemingway.  It's difficult call.  I've spent two years now in art college with people who follow these lines of thinking as far as drugs go.  I've seen some people produce some amazing and some horrible work and become complete basket cases in the process of following this.  And that's not even trying to have a conversation about anything with these people.  What I fear most is that the reputation and myth behind drugs and creativity is now more important than the reality of it.  A lot like this prediliction toward this false romantic suffering that a lot of young people have in the creative community.

I'm certainly not dismissing drugs.  I've done my fair share and do still occasionally, but never with a goal in mind.  As I've gotten older, it has just become this idea that seems so incredibly counter-productive.

Sorry, bit of a rant.
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Aneurhythmia

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« Reply #33 on: 08 Jun 2006, 04:25 »

Well, I think anybody that is going to become absolutely dependent on chemical alteration for their creative process is going to be prone to faulty art with or without the drugs anyway.  It's going to be a function of their personality.

Drug use, like anything else in life, is an experience to be interpreted and assimilated.  Drugs may garner a lot of attention because of the potency and novelty of the experience compared to many others and the general social taboo, but any experience and any personality trait may either help or hinder the creative process.

Also, I'm not sure about the Jerry Garcia-Hemingway dichotomy.  I was under the impression that both are generally well-respected in their pursuits, but I don't know much about Jerry Garcia beyond common knowledge.
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« Reply #34 on: 08 Jun 2006, 06:49 »

The Garcia/Hemingway comment was really meant in terms of end results.  Garcia died relatively peacfully, although young whereas Hemingway shot his head off, attributed to the physical and psychological damage his lifestyle choices caused.
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« Reply #35 on: 08 Jun 2006, 07:26 »

Quote from: McTaggart
I'm also an exception to iamyourpirates observation. The actually artistic subset of the people I know who dabble in the arts tend to be far on the cleaner side. The people who just draw pretty pictures and play their favourite bands' songs are more often the other sort.


mostly my observation was based off the i'm in an art school and just about everyone smokes. i mean, i know quite a few that don't, most of my friends don't, but most of them do or have and decided they hated it. it's just something i noticed. (this includes both professors and students.) but very very few of them do drugs, excluding alcohol (but that's probably just because it's college or something).
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« Reply #36 on: 08 Jun 2006, 19:38 »

Oh man. Like more than half the students at my school smoke(tobacco, mostly). it's weird. like being in France or something. And the heacy alcohol use in art students is also a wide trend.
on another note, it's also interesting to discuss the different ways artists die infamously as opposed to musicians- drinking absinthe and shooting oneself(van G- i can't spell is name, i really should remember how to spell that; he's one of my favorites) in the gut, versus overdosing on numerous psychadelics and going out in a pool of one's own vomit(Hendrix?). Or, drunk driving accident (Jackson Pollock) versus, say, coke and a sawed off (Cobain). then there are the murders. i forget which minimalist it was who supposedly pushed his wife off of a balcony... Carl Andre, Maybe? also, my memory on the particulars of the deaths of famous musicians is vague. but really, the only distinguishing factor between the two groups here is the particular substances abused, not the peculiarity of the death. also, the level of exposure resulting. perhaps there isn't as large a dichotomy as i once thought there is.
sorry. i guess i needed to ramble incoherently. did any of that make sense?
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McTaggart

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« Reply #37 on: 08 Jun 2006, 20:46 »

I think the alcoholism is a trend with any sort of students.
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« Reply #38 on: 08 Jun 2006, 21:45 »

Quote from: Cernunnos
... overdosing on numerous psychadelics and going out in a pool of one's own vomit(Hendrix?).


I think I should point out that not only was Hendrix using nothing but alcohol and stimulants the night of his death, but that it would be impossible to "overdose" on psychedelics in the first place.  It certainly is a bad idea to take more than a certain amount, but no psychedelic drug has physiological effects beyond their impact on your perception.  You need to take something along the lines of 10,000 hits of LSD in order for it to have toxic effects, and I'm not sure how many mushrooms it would take, but it's a hell of a lot.  It's virtually impossible to overdose (if "overdose" means taking enough to possibly be lethal) on any psychedelic drug without seriously trying to.

It's because of this and a wide variety of other reasons that I think the government's drug policy is downright laughable.  Both heroin and LSD are often pigeonholed as "hard drugs" ... it's inarguable that heroin qualifies, but LSD is virtually the opposite of heroin in every possible way.  How can it be categorized the same way, and more importantly, why are its users and purveyors punished the same way?

I won't even get into the marijuana-legalization debate, because it seems pretty clear that there shouldn't even be one.  Weed is less dangerous to society than alcohol in every way that matters, yet it's somehow causing a prison overflow (mainly of black men, as part of a wider racist attitude in the American criminal justice system).

Before I continue ranting I'll stop myself.  But I really find the idea of legislation of thought (which is basically what the "war on drugs" is about when it comes to hallucinogens, which are not inherently damaging drugs in the way hard drugs are) to be utterly repugnant.  I can't stand the fact that society simply doesn't accept someone who attempts to expand their experience with a psychedelic.  It seems completely counterintuitive to me the treat such a person as a criminal.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #39 on: 09 Jun 2006, 10:17 »

Weed is illegal not because of the damage it would do to society, but the damage it would do to the pockets of the american government and the tobacco and cotton industries. Cheap hemp and homegrown weed would be everywhere, and because you can't realistically tax weed in the same way as tobacco, they just don't want to know. And because the world traditionally follows Americas lead on the illegality of substances...

In my personal view anyway, the only drugs I'd probably ban are opiates. They're just...scary.
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Thrillho

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« Reply #40 on: 09 Jun 2006, 11:52 »

There has been correlational evidence to suggest that about 1% of marijuana smokers suffer from multiple personality disorder, psychosis, bipolarity, etc..
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Aneurhythmia

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« Reply #41 on: 09 Jun 2006, 14:21 »

Atleast you acknowledged that it's correlational.  Most of the observations in this thread about drug use, art, and even the ones about suicide have been either anecdotal or correlational, and as such, only moderately worth examining.
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Rubby

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« Reply #42 on: 09 Jun 2006, 14:22 »

That’s silly though. You could probably say the same about almost any demographic. If it was >50% it would be something worth noting, but 1% of like, hundreds of millions of people world wide; that just seems so insignificant.
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KharBevNor

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« Reply #43 on: 09 Jun 2006, 16:53 »

And even if it does exist, what about alcohol and liver disease, violent crime, etc.?

Most of the bad shit that happens to people through drugs is to do with impurities in the drug or stupidity on the half of the person. Either people don't do the correct doses, or mix it with some other drug, else it's cut with something. Legalisation elminates pretty much all those problems (frees up info, ensures pure supply etc.)
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« Reply #44 on: 09 Jun 2006, 18:31 »

The answear is pretty much in educating people about drugs. The problam is that the government* thinks of educating about drugs as "JESUS CHRIST KIDS DRUGS ARE BAD YOU ARE ALL GONNA DIE!", because of reasons Khar talked  about a couple of posts ago.


*I was seriously going to write "THE MAN thinks about drug education as.."
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« Reply #45 on: 09 Jun 2006, 18:57 »

You know what's funny though?

When I had to take DARE in grade school and they were telling us all about the boogey men drugs...they started describing all the hallucinations of LSD and everything.  And apparently I was the only one in my class to react this way, but I was like "Really!?!"  They actually managed to pique my interest by trying to scare me.
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Sanitycult

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« Reply #46 on: 09 Jun 2006, 19:13 »

i think the biggest myth about drugs that the dare program and teachers and parents perpetuate is that someday, one of your friends is gunna offer you a joint or some x or some heroin and a full works kit. Man, you'd be lucky to be offered a cigarette or a beer.  I was so disapointed nobody offered me any free, expensive mind altering pharmasuticals.
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Lines

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« Reply #47 on: 09 Jun 2006, 19:18 »

i have never been offered drugs. but i cought one of my friends giving aderol (sp?) to some guys she knew and i punched her ala faye, so maybe that's why.

and i agree with khar about opiates. all narcotics are scary and addictive like whoa.
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« Reply #48 on: 09 Jun 2006, 22:02 »

Quote from: Sanitycult
i think the biggest myth about drugs that the dare program and teachers and parents perpetuate is that someday, one of your friends is gunna offer you a joint or some x or some heroin and a full works kit. Man, you'd be lucky to be offered a cigarette or a beer.  I was so disapointed nobody offered me any free, expensive mind altering pharmasuticals.


Yes, what's the deal with that, I had to buy my fucking drugs.
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Kai

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« Reply #49 on: 09 Jun 2006, 22:49 »

Yeah, I've never been offered shit so far. Pretty disappointing, actually, since DARE set it up as this big fucking like, struggle against the effects of peer pressure. What the hell?
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.
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