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[ALoveSupreme]

Ion Dissonance is amazing.  Check out Psyopus.

I pretty much agree with you as well, Spaceman Spiff (great handle, by the way).  I love hardcore in nearly all it's forms, but I prefer the things that came from the original hardcore movements.

[rae]

What about at Prog concerts where people bring foldout chairs with them to sit down in the front row and watch...

People actually do this?
I heard about some people doing this when Isis played here a few months ago, but I thought I was being wound up.



 More Kylesa love on this forum please.

[livingthelie]

Ion Dissonance is amazing.

i disagree, for the following reason:

motherfuckers stole my bed.

allow me to explain:

i saw them a while back with embrace today.  they seemed to be ok, and then they did the usual hardcore "hey, we need a place to stay thing".  my roommate at the time, who was an incredibly nice girl, went up and offered our house.  no prob right?

accept, what do i find upon entering my humble abode?  goddamn french canadians in my bed. 

motherfuckers. 

uh, but other than that.  yeah, ion dissonance is good.  and i saw kylesa WAY WAY back in the day, and they were pretty fucking good, too.

(edited for being an insufferable prick)

[a pack of wolves]

You forgot the indie-rocker stand-still-with-your-arms-crossed-and-nod-your-head dance.

This is actually the most common dance in hardcore too. Hardcore's basically indie rock with a DIY obsession and more chug.

For me, I make no distinction between bands like Heroin, Man Is The Bastard, Converge, Discordance Axis etc and bands like Minor Threat. It's all just hardcore, it's just that hardcore matured like a good cheese and developed a few subgenres.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Ion Dissonance is amazing.? Check out Psyopus.

I pretty much agree with you as well, Spaceman Spiff (great handle, by the way).? I love hardcore in nearly all it's forms, but I prefer the things that came from the original hardcore movements.

Yeah, I know Psyopus. Their guitar player is disturbingly good... Also: Thanks.

And I forgot the entire Bremen hardcore scene. Gotta love me some Acme, Systral or M?rser.

And Livingthelie: You should have just joined them. ... Of course they have those weird links to hardcore porn on their website so I don't know what would have happened, but still.
Also, have you ever whored around your band? If so, I missed it, so: Please do.

[nekooo]

It's all about Stick To Your Guns.

But I absolutely love those old 80's hardcore bands that have all been mentioned. Some tough guy hardcore (Ramallah, Death Before Dishonor, etc) is ok. Set Your Goals is pretty neat for a posi pop-punk band with hardcore influences.

[livingthelie]

i absolutely love set your goals.  but then, i'm a huge geek for pop punk, especially lifetime and jawbreaker.  i'm actually going in to get a  jawbreaker themed chest piece on dec. 3rd.

and as for my band:

here you go

you'll have to excuse the terrible recording quality.  can't really complain since it was free out of some dudes bedroom, but still...ouch.  were gonna go into the studio soon, and put out a real damn album.  just need to write a few more songs...

[nekooo]

Lifetime is amazing. Speaking of which, I kind of consider Save The Day's first CD (Can't Slow Down) to be at least melodic hardcore.

[AlexAttack]

some bands worth checking out would be:

earth crisis
avail
spazz
infest
tear it up
strife
ignite
fucked up
early screeching weasel-boogada x 3 or self titled
vitamin x
artimus pyle
ds 13

and dead kennedys are fucking awesome and definitaly were one of the early hardcore bands.

[ALoveSupreme]

i saw them a while back with embrace today. 

That tour was the first time I ever saw them as well.  I can't stand embrace today, though... I don't really remember why I was even at that show...

When you started the story, I imagined them physically removing your bed from your house.  That would have been quite a feat for a touring band.

[Will]

Austin, you should check out these guys:

www.myspace.com/oncenothing

My band played with them once, some friends of ours went on tour with them...they're really great guys.  More metal than hardcore, but really good.

Also, are any of you guys (especially you UK folk) familiar with Beecher?  I keep forgetting how much I really like them, and then I listen to them and go "oh yeah...they fucking rock"

[livingthelie]

some bands worth checking out would be:

earth crisis
avail
spazz
infest
tear it up
strife
ignite
fucked up
early screeching weasel-boogada x 3 or self titled
vitamin x
artimus pyle
ds 13

and dead kennedys are fucking awesome and definitaly were one of the early hardcore bands.

i whole heartedly agree with this entire list.

and nekoo, saves the day is just awesome.  period.  do not attempt to contain their awesomness within some pathetic "genre"  it will only burst out and poke you in the eye.

[a pack of wolves]

Also, are any of you guys (especially you UK folk) familiar with Beecher?? I keep forgetting how much I really like them, and then I listen to them and go "oh yeah...they fucking rock"

Yeah, I've seen Beecher a bunch of times. I'm afraid I'm not a fan though, they're just sound too metalcore-by-numbers for me. Stand was always where it was at for UK metalcore, and they had the always excellent talking in a Grimsby accent sections like Imbalance did. Sadly, all the best UKHC bands have split, which is a pity since we had some of the best bands in the world just after the turn of the century.

[Gridgm]

yes.? your right.? it's so silly.? not nearly as intelligent as say headbanging (which hurts my neck just looking at it). or maybe the "punk rock drunken stumble into the PA".? or how about burning down churches...wait, sorry, that was just norway.

You forgot the indie-rocker stand-still-with-your-arms-crossed-and-nod-your-head dance.

i did that in the front row while watching kaiser cheifs...except with out nodding my head...they are possibly the worst band i have ever seen in my life, the only reason i've heard their music is they were playing support for foo fighters

[Misereatur]

I think some record lable tried to bring DEP to play here after Miss Machine came out, DEP joked about it in an interview if I'm not mistaken. I still want to see them live.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendations guys, I would start downloading but my Soulseek client crahsed and I need to try and make it work again.

[KharBevNor]

DEP were one of the least enjoyable live experiences I've ever had, and I've seen Bullet For My Valentine.

[Will]

I like DEP, but sometimes they still seem to much "tech. for the sake fo being tech."  I will say that the one time I saw them, between the PAtton EP and Miss Machine, they were really intense and an enjoyable show, but their music sometimes just seems to lack passion.  I'm sure I'll turn this into a dead horse when talking about music, but really playing with passion is what sells me on a band.  The reason I go apeshit for Converge as much as I do is because every time I've ever seen them, they look like they're all trying to excorcise all of their own demons through their music, and it comes out through every song.  I connect with that so much more than I do with some band that's just playing "sick brutal breakdowns!!!" for a sweet m0sh...

[livingthelie]

i used to love DEP.  i saw them years ago, back when dimitri minikakis was still singing for them, and they had so much passion.  then a few years later, when dimitri left, and sean ingram from coalesce stepped in for one show.  also, disturbingly good.  then...nothing for a long time. then shortly after miss machine, i went and saw them again...and suddenly they sucked.  like, hardcore sucked.  it still makes me sad.  still, everything up to and including the patton ep is gooooooood stuff.  especially under the running board. jesus that was brutal.

[Will]

Yes.  For the love of all that is holy, you should at least punch him.  Nora is awesome, but grindcore they are NOT!!!

[ALoveSupreme]

My friend called Nora grindcore last night. Should I kick him in the throat?

From the songs I'm listening to on the trustkill site, I would classify them as godawful.  And definatly not grindcore in the least, at all.  Throat kicking is a minimum.

[livingthelie]

please.  i seem to remember a "friend" of mine calling slipknot grindcore once...






...we don't talk anymore.

and agreed that nora sucks.  sorry.

[Will]

There is absolutely nothing special about Nora. Nothing.  And yet I still love them...they're just...fun, I guess? 

Ferret Records is starting to make me feel like an old man though...as in, I look back on their roster from a few years ago compared with who they sign anymore and go "Yeah, those were the days back then..."

[livingthelie]

oh, jesus, yeah.  i <3 clifton.

although, i've not really kept up with ferret for a while.  who are they signing up now?

[Will]

They took a page from Trustkill's playbook, and started signing a bunch of extremely mediocre "emo"* bands...although not to the extent that Trustkill did.  Right now, with a few exceptions, Ferret is predominately godawful mall-metalcore, or makeup artists.


*By use of the term "emo" I am referring to the style of ear-butchery commonly referred to around these parts as de-pop; I acknowledge the fact that the word "emo" is ridiculous, and wish to make it known that while I am using it's commonly accepted syntax in the parlance of our current age, there is no need to educate me with a link to Tommy's Quiki entry.  Thank you, and good day!

[livingthelie]

BOOOO.  what happened to the joy of twelve tribes?  or vlad? 

however, i will always hate ferret, just a little bit, for signing misery signals.  fuck.

EDIT:  just went and looked at their website.  boys night out?  remembering never?  ZAO?

dear ferret music,
we're fighting.
love, austin

[ALoveSupreme]

Unless I misunderstood your post, I'm pretty sure all three of those bands have been on Ferret forever.  BNO has, at least (by forever, I mean,like, 3 or 4 years)

[Will]

I always have and always will love Zao...they're the band that got me into metal and hardcore in the first place, and nothing you can say will ever change that.  Remembering Never, on the other hand,  is one of those bands that really, REALLY is embarassing to me, being straight edge; they write that kind of mindless, knuckledragging, neanderthalish preaching, shoving down your throat bullshit that I've always hated...

I just think this whole scene has started to get so big, it won't be long before it starts to collapse under its own weight

[Dimmukane]

I HATE the fucking scene.  the whole express jeans thing.  the whole black nails and x's on the hands thing.  the penny-picking dances.  the straight-edgeness.  (Nothing wrong with straight-edgeness, but don't push your views onto the other people).  That being said, I do like Cryptic Slaughter (one of the first bands to really start Death Metal, albeit unintentionally), and Radiation 4.  A little bit of Saetia, and Corrosion of Conformity.  Everything else I listen to hardcore-wise is too poppy for me to want to admit.

[ALoveSupreme]

the whole express jeans thing.  the whole black nails... 

what in god's name are you talking about?

and by that I mean, you only know people who suck a lot.  That isn't "the" "scene"

[KharBevNor]

It sounds reasonably accurate. 95% of hardcore kids I've ever met have been complete douches. Violent, image obsessed, elitist douches. Not to say the other 5% weren't really great guys but come on. If that isn't "the" "scene" then what is "the" "scene", seeing as how the wankers are in greater evidence.

(Okay, to be fair, 95% of everyone isn't worth the time of day, but come on...)

[Will]

Unfortunately, he is pretty much spot on as far as the scene goes...everything Dimmukane listed there is fairly predominant at almost any hardcore show you go to.

Back in September, I went to see Modern Life Is War with Strike Anywhere and Ignite...the vast majority of the crowd was this group of dirty punk kids, all of them with big ass smiles on their faces the whole time that bands were playing.  Everyone was there having a good time, and not afriad to show it.  It's one of the best shows overall that I've been to.

On the other hand, in August I went to see Converge playing an off-date show with some smaller hardcore and grindcore bands.  The whole time, everyone was busy comparing "I'm more hardcore than you" points, and making anyone who didn't fit their image feel that they had no right even being withing line of sight of the venue.

It's happened to other styles of music, and other scenes - hardcore (and especially metalcore) has started to gain popularity among the masses, and it's turned into a fucking fashion show...kind of ironic, since a lot of the bands that are idolized in this genre scream out against that very thing. 

Every scene has its fair share of shitheads...we'e covered that already.  Khar's estimation is as right as it gets, 95% of "my" scene sucks, but probably so does 95% of his.  So does 95% of the indie scene, I could go on and on.  On the upside, the scenes themselves have provided Jeph with plenty of mockery potential in past AND future comics here...so I guess we should at least enjoy that...

Okay, end tangent.  I'll jump down off my soapbox, let someone else have a turn.  Thanks for playing.

[KharBevNor]

I'd agree, but then I remember how well I get on with pretty much every metalhead I meet.

I suppose the distinction is when I say metalhead, I mean 'true' metalheads, which is probably, come to think of it, 5% of the people an outsider might classify as such. I suppose I'm mainly just bitter I've never had the chance to be involved in any sort of scene which I actually think is worth a damn.

[Dimmukane]

I'm lucky to know as many "true" (as in, they've listened to a fair amount more than Trivium and Arch Enemy, etc.) metalheads as I do.  Like, 4. 3 of them are in the same band, the other one is this crazy kid who's all over the place.   I do know one person who's the opposite, but he's led what I guess you could call a hardcore life, so I let it go when he says something like Bullet For My Valentine being black metal.

[!!!CPAOI!!!]

I went to a local hardcore show with a friend and the following happened:

We were in Zaxby's getting something to eat, and these two dudes come in.  They are both wearing screen-printed button down shirts, obscenely tight vests, and nut hugging jeans and have their nails painted.  It's pretty obvious they're going to the show.  We got there, and they were pretty easy to find (it was a tiny venue). Fifteen minutes later, I saw them make their way to the back and leave.  Later that night we went to IHOP and they were there with some other people.  One of these people asks them if they went to the show, and the dude's all like "oh yeah it was fucking fantastic!."

I recognize that this in no way represents the entire hardcore scene or could be used to paint all hardcore fans the same color, but shit like that would not happen if hardcore weren't becoming a "just peel the wrapper and enjoy" identity for lost, self-concious teenagers.  The genre is producing some decent bands right now, but the vast majority aren't going to leave a single fingerprint on musical history and you won't care about them in ten years.

I definitely support those bands that are pushing the whole thing forward and seeing what it's capable of producing, that I can respect.  On that note, maybe somebody following this thread can suggest some good modern hardcore/post-hardcore that will change my perception of the genre.

[Will]

Check out the album "Death Knows Your Name" by The Hope Conspiracy...I really can't recommend this band strongly enough. 

[Dimmukane]

I think I mentioned Radiation 4.  They've only got one album out, it's a sort of mesh between tech death and hardcore.  Actually, I think they're no longer together.  The album should be somewhere on slsk though.

[livingthelie]

I went to a local hardcore show with a friend and the following happened:

We were in Zaxby's getting something to eat, and these two dudes come in.  They are both wearing screen-printed button down shirts, obscenely tight vests, and nut hugging jeans and have their nails painted.  It's pretty obvious they're going to the show.  We got there, and they were pretty easy to find (it was a tiny venue). Fifteen minutes later, I saw them make their way to the back and leave.  Later that night we went to IHOP and they were there with some other people.  One of these people asks them if they went to the show, and the dude's all like "oh yeah it was fucking fantastic!."

I recognize that this in no way represents the entire hardcore scene or could be used to paint all hardcore fans the same color, but shit like that would not happen if hardcore weren't becoming a "just peel the wrapper and enjoy" identity for lost, self-concious teenagers.  The genre is producing some decent bands right now, but the vast majority aren't going to leave a single fingerprint on musical history and you won't care about them in ten years.

I definitely support those bands that are pushing the whole thing forward and seeing what it's capable of producing, that I can respect.  On that note, maybe somebody following this thread can suggest some good modern hardcore/post-hardcore that will change my perception of the genre.

yeah, this is pretty much the problem (as far as i see it) with most "scenes" in general.  my scene (victoria, bc) tends to not have that, but then were just to damn small.  we tend to push kids like that out.  the bigger scenes, though, have that "95%, 5%" ratio that khar and dimmukane were talking about.  which, as pointed out earlier, is pretty much what you find in any scene.  like khar said, most of the hardcore kids i know and meet, i get along with fantastically...which is completely overshadowed by the fact that i tend not to talk to/hang out with asshole hardcore kids.  so my friends and i make up the 5%.  which sucks.  bah.  this can go on forever.  lets just get to the point.  people blow.  doesn't matter what kind of music or fashion youre into.  they just suck. 

and as for good modern hardcore:

suicide file
modern life is war
most precious blood
where eagles dare
tragedy
the answer
vanguard
champion
betrayed

the list goes on.  try those guys out for starters.  they're the "fuck you and your elitist bullshit" type hardcore.

p.s. i had no idea BNO were on ferret music.  of course, i tend to ignore them/want to kill them.  so i might have just repressed the whole thing.  and remembering never can suck a fat dick.  sierously.  i'm saying that as someone who's not only vegan, but straightedge.  fuck you guys.  you make my life harder to live.

[ALoveSupreme]

BNO is pretty good fun, but they wouldn't really be a hardcore band if I had to classify them in any way.

As far as the black nail shit goes, I still don't consider that part of the "hardcore" "scene" probably in the same way Tommy doesn't consider the new wave of 'emo' "emo".  Even if that's what everyone is doing and its maybe recognized as the trend, I still think it's bullshit propegated by teen-bopper hardcore/metalcore kids that don't actually know anything and just on the whole suck at life.

...or we can just relate it to the 95% to 5% deal that 101010101100101 brought up, which I supoose is just as valid.

[a pack of wolves]

and as for good modern hardcore:

suicide file
modern life is war
most precious blood
where eagles dare
tragedy
the answer
vanguard
champion
betrayed

Admittedly I haven't heard a couple of these bands but to me this list sums up the problem with hardcore these days, that things are becoming tired and repetitive. Even Tragedy, the one band there that I actually like, don't break any new ground. I can't think of a single current band that really is pushing things forward. There are a few that I love (La Quiete, Das Oath, Submission Hold, The Dauntless Elite etc) but they're either just doing long-established styles extremely well or they made their innovations some time back. There's nothing wrong with any individual band doing that, but just a few years ago I could have reeled off a fair few names that were pushing the envelope. Maybe not massively, but there was something definitely new to their sounds. Now I can't think of one, and a lot of the people who were in those innovative bands aren't playing hardcore anymore.

[livingthelie]

hm.  you know an argument for that can be made.  however, and i may be blasted to hell by the almighty music gods for saying this, but i really don't care if a band pushes the envelope or not.  take most precious blood.  i love them.  they are great (in my opinion).  are they anything new?  nope.  are they damn good, and fun to listen to?  yes.  do they make me happy when i listen to them?  yes.  do they do what they do, because they love it, and not because they wanna be rich and famous?  yup.  then who cares if they're innovative?  don't get me wrong, innovative bands are necessary for any genre to survive.  however, i don't use that as my only criteria.  honestly, as long i love to hear what a band is making, i'll listen to them.  in the end, i love what i love.  no questions, no caveats. 

[a pack of wolves]

I totally agree (well, except about Most Precious Blood being good). I don't care if any individual band is innovative or not, but without some that are hardcore will stagnate and get very boring, and I'm worried that this is already happening.

[livingthelie]

oh for sure (except that MPB are, in fact, amazing).  the problem is, whenever a hardcore band does something different, they're labeled "post-hardcore" or something equally pretentious, and we lose them to tragic haircuts and tight jeans.  i give you the blood brothers, as an example. 

[AlexAttack]

for the longest time, as i guess i am out of the loop with newish bands, i thought when everyone was talking about the blood brothers they were talking about the victory band blood for blood. bit of a mix up haha.
but what is post hardcore? is that like rival schools? they had someone from gorilla biscuits right?

[livingthelie]

i guess.  i'm not sure, honestly.  my view of post hardcore has always been the same as the supreme courts view of pornography.  i can't define it, but i know it when i hear it. 

and mixing up blood for blood and the blood brothers is pretty funny.  could you imagine if blood brothers fans made the same mistake, and went to the wrong show? 



oh, those poor bastards....

[AlexAttack]

haha ok well i'm gonna go with rival schools then? ?

[!!!CPAOI!!!]

Post-hardcore is supposed to be a catchall term for anyone who takes the basic aesthetic or cultural ideology of hardcore and pushes it in an artsier or more musically diverse direction. Blood Brothers, for example, borrow a lot from hardcore but use two dedicated vocalists at different pitches, extremely diverse instrumentation and routinely crib from odd sources.  It's different enough from the hardcore template to qualify.

[a pack of wolves]

oh for sure (except that MPB are, in fact, amazing).? the problem is, whenever a hardcore band does something different, they're labeled "post-hardcore" or something equally pretentious, and we lose them to tragic haircuts and tight jeans.? i give you the blood brothers, as an example.?

That is a depressing fact, and people often seem very eager to claim something has moved beyond hardcore when in reality it's done no such thing. It doesn't always happen though. Canvas were always thought of as a hardcore band, and so were Orchid.

[Rizzo]

Yeah, I think it's pretty subjective.

I would consider Converge posthardcore because their sound has moved beyond hardcore and their lyrics tend to be more emotional than your average hardcore band. I also include Modern Life Is War (probably unfairly) and Circle Takes the Square (more fairly termed screamo).
Then again most genres are quite subjective.

Bands like MLIW are doing amazing things with hardcore and it's not necessarily "postifying" it.

[Ernest]

I don't know a whole lot about hardcore, but I saw Sick of It All open for the Dropkick Murphys.  They were alright, and really fucking loud.  Like, the Dropkick Murphys sounded like mice after them. 

I also like Refused, and The Fall of Troy *runs, hands over head*

[ALoveSupreme]

obviously anyone who knows anything likes Refused.

The Fall of Troy have some pretty great qualities.  Their guitarist is ridiculously skilled, and for being pretty poppy, they have some good tunes.