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[Inlander]

Rant time.

This music forum has a problem. This is my opinion, and I know that it's the opinion of numerous other people who frequent the forum. That problem is rampant snobbishness. Sometimes it barely seems possible for somebody to mention the name of a band, without somebody else going to extravagant lengths to condemn that band, often in a completely inappropriate manner. I've been guilty of this at times, too.

When I first joined the Q.C. Forum it was remarkable for its friendliness, and its openness to new people. While this attitude still exists in some quarters, it has all but disappeared in the music section. People insult each other here in a manner that I don't think would be tolerated in any other part of the Q.C. Forum. Again, I myself am not wholly innocent of this accusation.

But I'm sick of it. I'm sick of coming in here and reading the same old opinions, the same old insults, the same old cheap shots time and time again, and all because one person's musical taste diverges from another's. In short, I'm sick of the hostility, both towards bands and towards other forum members, that has become rampant in the music discussion forum.

This is where this thread comes in. In this thread, I propose that people announce publicly those bands or artists who they cannot stand, who they detest the very essence of. I don't mean "I've tried listening to them, and they just don't do it for me." I mean, "I would rather cut my own ears off than listen to that shit again, and anyone who recommends it to me is clearly an inferior example of humanity." The bands or artists that you JUST. CAN'T. STAND.

Here's the catch: in announcing your biases in this thread, you take an oath that you will never again voice the opinion in question, in any thread in the music forum, for as long as you continue to post in the music forum. In effect, forever. Your hatred of said band or artist will be preserved here in perpetuity: there will be no need for you to make it public ever again.

The point of this is NOT to stifle discussion; rather, I hope that by weeding out the comments of irrational or excessive hatred that continually threaten to strangle debate in this music discussion forum, we can instead encourage rational, calm, and adult discussion and criticism of music.

I have not consulted any mods or admin for this thread, and I have not sought out their blessing. I make this suggestion merely as one of the many, as an ordinary member of this community, in the strong belief that by working together we can make this music forum a better place. PARTICIPATION IN THIS THREAD IS ENTIRELY VOLUNTARY, AND NO PRESSURE SHALL BE BROUGHT TO BEAR ON ANYBODY TO TAKE PART IN THIS EXERCISE.

I have already announced my bias in the "Artists that should never be covered" thread, and in the spirit of this exercise I shall not repeat my hatred here. If you've read this far, thankyou, and I hope that this post has not been completely in vain.

[David_Dovey]

This thread has been tried and has died in the ass a bunch of times before, although I do agree with most of your points. The main problem is that a thread like this existing isn't gonna stop people from being douchebags in other threads.

[Inlander]

I don't recall this specific idea being tried before. I do recall a bunch of people complaining about other people's hostility towards bands. That's why I made this thread. I'm hoping for two things: (A) a little bit of public accountability; and (B) that people will be able to recognise faults in themselves, and will be willing to take responsibility for them. A folorn hope? Maybe! But I'm not prepared to sit by and assume nothing can be done. The point is not that this thread will "stop people being douchebags in other threads", it's that people will make a vow in this thread that, in just one small case, they are going to stop themselves from being douchebags. As I said in my original post, I'm not going to pressure anybody to take part in this exercise; furthermore I would be disgusted if anybody felt they had to take part because of peer-group pressure.

[Misereatur]

I'm not going to start listing all of the bands I hate (mainly because then I'll have a keyboard full of vomit). But I am going to take an oath to be less of an asshole.
I don't know if I've been a snobish jerk latley, I'm just going to assume I was a and stop it.

Inlander, you get an intenweb's high five.

[Inlander]

Thanks for taking part, Misereatur!

One last thing before I go to bed: this thread is not for the discussion of any bands that get mentioned. If somebody mentions a band that you like, don't complain and don't try to convince them they're wrong. On the other hand, when listing a band that you dislike, this thread is not to be taken as an opportunity to exorbitantly criticise that band. Simply say "I hate [band name]", or words to that effect, and then move on.

[Kai]

Jamie Cullum is a shiteater.

Also: Aqualung.

Not the Jethro Tull album. this guy.. Fuck him.

Muse are ridiculously awful.

They will never be mentioned again.

[MusicScribbles]

I can also say that shitting all over the Internets is what I would be doing, following Miserateur. So I'm just going to say here that I can be a dick, and I'll try not to be in the future.
I think one of the main problems is that when someone insults band so and so, people who love that band will obviously retaliate, defending what makes them happy. This most of the time is pop music, most of the time. I think this is because when a non-audiophile, or guy/girl who obsesses over a few bands gets put down for liking them, you're putting down part of their life. In essence, I'm saying what everyone already knows, or should know, but music has and most likely (or for a while at least anyway) will be one of the most enjoyed forms of entertainment.  Making a bad comparison, which is what I do best, you would get beat up in Philly for hating on the Eagles (Not a football fan, don't talk to me about it.). In closing, kids, never tell people their music sucks without good reason, and even then, be gentle. Or maybe don't voice those opinions at all...

Wait, wait, wait! I'm not telling you not to be opinionated! But it is possible to tell people why you don't like something without taking a crap all over their favorite band.

[Ernest]

Inlander, I sympathize with your position, and I too can vow to be less of a dick, but to say that I'll never voice my opinion again about Cradle of Filth, Destroyer, or The Smiths again wouldn't be fair.  What if some dick comes on and says that Destoyer is the quintessential indie band?  I can't let that shit fly.  So, I resolve that if someone says "I like Destroyer," I won't be a dick to him, but he can't canonize Destoyer and expect me not to rebuke his opinion.

[ScrambledGregs]

I guess my solution is to realize that this is the Internet and we're talking about music. It's not like we're face to face and I'm insulting someone's race or sexual practices. People being mean and talking shit only works if you take the other person seriously enough to take offense. I've heard more than a few people trash Sufjan Stevens on here, an artist I really like, and after trying to argue about it for awhile I realized it was fruitless. I'm not going to change, for instance, Khar's mind about Sufjan Stevens by fighting about it or going for personal insults. So why get so upset?? Negativity is everywhere.

[Thrillho]

I like this thread, but it's redundant. This is never going to happen.

[TheFuriousWombat]

well aren't you just a negative nelly. i, for one, believe in the ability of humans to understand one another and cooperate and to learn from each other and.......oh fuck it. i'm not even kidding myself here. idealism is nice and all but realistically you're quite right dynamite. these are all nice ideas but.....yeh. just like bashing someone for not sharing your musical preferences isn't effective, talking about how it's not effective is equally uneffective. but don't let that stop you. it's nice to be optimistic.

[Johnny C]

What if some dick comes on and says that Destoyer is the quintessential indie band?  I can't let that shit fly.

Yes you can. You can maybe blow some wind at it but there's no justifiable reason to fill it full of verbal buckshot.

The hostility towards others' preferences and personalities seems to come in waves and I think we're in the middle of one of those waves right now. How fast it all evens out depends on how willing people are to accept that other individuals may in fact have separate viewpoints and that the best method of discussing those viewpoints is to be thoughtful and considerate rather than a total dick.

[David_Dovey]

The problem of the Music Talk forum is the problem of the entire Internet. People are voicing opinions as fact and assuming everyone else is doing the same. In other words, when someone says that a certain band sucks, they believe this to be objective fact, when of course a rational person would know this to be untrue. Nothing is more frustrating than reading someone who is not only so unshakable in their belief that they dislike something, but that nobody else should like it either. (EDIT: This is particularly frustrating when they don't even give any reason for the band "sucking." As though simply stating that they suck is proof in itself)

I'd like to point out what is hopefully obvious in stating that THERE IS NO SET CRITERIA FOR LIKING MUSIC. NONE! Just because a great deal of this community agrees on some of the criteria for their own preferences does not mean that they are universal!

[Jackie Blue]

Maybe I'm jaded from being on the Internet for, what, 13 years now?  But this forum really doesn't strike me as particularly mean-spirited at all.  I mean, it's nicer (but generally less active and interesting) than SA's music forum, for example.

[KharBevNor]

I'm sorry, but I can only get hard by ragging on Radiohead.

I also have to blow a foghorn at the moment of climax, it is pretty strange.

[Ernest]

What if some dick comes on and says that Destoyer is the quintessential indie band?  I can't let that shit fly.

Yes you can. You can maybe blow some wind at it but there's no justifiable reason to fill it full of verbal buckshot.

No, I can't.  Not if a person says they're the quintessential indie band.  It all depends on the degree of the offense.

[MusicScribbles]

I understand you wanting to punish such an offense, but you don't need to be a douche right off the bat. You could say something along the lines of "I completely disagree because I don't think Destroyer is good, at all." instead of "Destroyer quintessential! Destroyer sucks! You suck too, prostitute man!" Even though it's extremely hard to get across tone on the Interwubs, it's still possible. Word your sentences. I think mommy told me once to think before I speak, something like that. Now there's some tone, I'm being blunt, unless I'm a five-year old posting on the QC forums.

[Ernest]

I never said I would begin being a condescending dick immediately.  I always test the waters first. 

[MusicScribbles]

Good point, I guess I just wanted to post something, contribute to the conversation. I wasn't trolling, I swear.
RRRAAAAGH!!!!!!

[Ernest]

Yeah, bitch.

[amok]

I guess my solution is to realize that this is the Internet and we're talking about music. It's not like we're face to face and I'm insulting someone's race or sexual practices. People being mean and talking shit only works if you take the other person seriously enough to take offense.

Yeah, basically. I don't really see any more problem with saying you don't like a band than saying you do like a band. It's just an opinion either way; if someone actually gets offended by a faceless block of text on the internet disliking one of their favourite bands, that's kinda depressing.

If it's the repetitive nature of negative posts about bands that's the problem, people should also agree to stop repeat-posting their favourite bands in recommendation threads etc I'll sign up for this if I never see the word 'Slint' again.

[Will]

I, for one, disagree.  I mean, how exactly are we to perform the public service of helping people to know what good music is if we don't first crush their spirits by mocking and ridiculing everything about them and every member of their family?  The world will not be a safer place until we utterly destroy anyone who dares haunt our hallowed grounds with their bad music.  If we do not strike immediately, and forcefully, never resting until everyone listens exclusively to the same 15 collectively approved "Good" bands, the terrorists have already won.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but before anyone gets upset I want to make it known that if you're offended by it because I've just been hostile towards you, remember what my mom always used to say about pointing fingers:  I'm directing my malice towards myself more than anyone else here.  I may not be as much of a dick here in the music forums, but I am a bastard in real life, and if there's one thing that a lot of the people here have inspired me to do, it's to try and change that.  I recall that it wasn't too long ago that I was openly declaring bands like P.O.D. to be the best there is; I have my personal "list of shame" for lack of a better term, stuff that would earn me a harsh mocking by anyone INCLUDING my current self, but there was a reason that I thought these bands were so great - they struck some kind of emotional chord with me that for whatever period of time helped me go through this shitstorm of a life with enough of my sanity intact.  Who am I to judge whether a band, even one I find to be distasteful, is doing the same for someone else?  In another thread, Khar and Storm expressed their negative opinions of Converge, and instinctively I really wanted to get upset, but after a second or two, I realized two things:  One, this is the fucking INTERNET, and what's the damn point of being offended by something two people I don't even know beyond their postcount have said, and (more importantly) there's no difference at all between that and myself yelling about how bad My Chemical Romance is.  I think they are, to use Khar's phrase, "not good."  So be it.  It's rather arrogant of me to think that just because I consider my tastes in music to be 'highly refined,' I have the authority to dictate what is worthwhile to anyone else.  I discovered the music I listen to now on my own time, and without having very many people verbally flogging me and demanding I listen to their choice of "good" music.  So I don't really need to try to force anyone else to change either.

There you have it, basically after a really long semi-rant, my vow:  make an effort not to be an arrogant, self-righteous toolbag.  All I ask now is that my fellow forumites hold me to that.

[ScrambledGregs]

I spent the weekend with a good friend of mine, and his new girlfriend, both of whom's music tastes fall into "mainstream rock that you hear on the radio." I've tried my best to introduce my friend to "better" music, which he does like, but he is not nearly as obsessed with music as me to keep up with the newest bands and check out the older, more obscure bands.

I fully accept the fact that most of the world will never encounter or seek out the music I enjoy, and frankly they don't need to. They're happy with their Fall Out Boy and whatnot. I think Fall Out Boy sucks, but that's because I long ago tired of what I heard on the radio and sought out something else. Something weirder, noisier...just...different somehow. And until the feeling comes over you that you are fucking sick and tired of what's on the radio and you need to hear something different, you can't understand what it is to treat music as something other than just entertainment, and you won't need to get so into it.

I think that seeing music through their eyes (hearing it through their ears??) helped me see that there's no harm in arguing about it as long as the people you're arguing with don't take it as a personal insult. I'd say most of us on here have a huge investment, mentally and emotionally, in the music we listen to. When someone comes along and trashes said music, the gut reaction is to take it personally, as if they are somehow attacking you or falsifying the feelings you have as ingenuine.

I told my friend I hated Fall Out Boy and he just shrugged it off. When his girlfriend skipped past a Captain Beefheart song it felt, for a split second, like a slap in the face. No, I thought, you have to like it...listen to it more...you will...this is my song...Then I realized that, you know what, not everyone will like Captain Beefheart. Frankly, here was a girl who never will like Captain Beefheart. It's just not for her, in the same way that Fall Out Boy is not for me. And learning to accept this, it's easier for me to talk about and argue about music (online or otherwise) because they're not really insulting you, they just don't like the same music.

[Ernest]

Right and wrong, Greg.  While it is true that we don't all like the same music, that doesn't change the fact that the music you and I listen to is inherently better than what your friend and his girlfriend listen to.  We can't just put everything on this level plane and be content with the fact that some of our close friends like garbage like Fallout Boy.  For instance, I am in a band with a bassist, who is also my very close friend and has been for quite awhile, who likes Coheed and Cambria.  Now, I could just accept the fact that he was never as discerning in his musical tastes as I was, but since he knows music theory and I don't, I try to help him along.  It's not like he's particularly bad.  He likes Bear vs Shark, Propagandhi, Fugazi, and The Pixies.  However, he has a strong tendency towards the more poppy Bear vs Shark.  He likes Fugazi but doesn't really appreciate them like I do.  I really have to exercise all my influence on our songwriting to keep him from writing one dynamic pop-punk songs all the time.  So I can't be content to just let him like whatever he wants.

[Storm Rider]

I think the problem is people associate themselves too closely with the music they like. Note that I said that Converge is bad, I didn't say that Sam or Will are bad for liking them. In fact, I like to think I get along pretty well with both of them.

[Misereatur]

Actually, I think the reason the music forum has gone a bit bad in the past few months is because the boards are abound with new people.

The QC forums are not like other forums on the internets. People come to the music forum expecting to argue about music in the same idiotic way most of the internet argues about music, and instantly starts to post stuff like "OMG that band suck!". No, that's not how we do it around here.

New people - take a few weeks and just read the threads in the music forum. Pay special attention to veteran posters like Tommy and Johnny C.
After you get a feel for the forums, start to post. That's what I did when I joined the boards.

I think this might solve some issues we've been having.

[Misereatur]

I'm pretty sure ScrambledGregs, zerodrone, fish across face and 10101110  (to name a few) took their time reading threads in the music forum before posting. My post was for the people who didn't, and just guessed that this is just another internet forum. I know these people have importent things to say, even if I dont agree with their opinions, but I dont think anyone is going to listen to them if they wont post like people should (a thought out post rather then just another "I hate this band they suck" post).

I think the reason some of the older posters started being assholes is because people just came out of nowhere and posted crap. I know I was upset with that.

[Ernest]

Omg do you guys know what this thread is becoming?  Everyone who doesn't get mentioned as a "great poster" is going to be jealous.  Now I have to buy candy for everyone.

[Thrillho]

I can't be arsed to buy chocolate for you all, so handjobs all round?

[Thrillho]

I DNT DO IT 4 BIRDZ WIV TIEZ LOL!11

[Misereatur]

I knew this would happen.

[Ernest]

And you let it happen.  With your superior intellect, you still let it happen.  Damn you.   Damn you!

[Misereatur]

With great power comes great responsibility.

[NiMRoD420]

*blinks*

[Aneurhythmia]

Wait, if we're not irrationally bitching about things, what's the point of an internet forum?

[Johnny C]

Aren't you following? Handjobs. Duh.

[David_Dovey]

Postcount boosting, duh!

[Jackie Blue]

I actually didn't read this forum before I posted in it.  I pissed Jeph off in the General Discussion forum and decided to retreat here because I'd rather talk about music than get attacked by angry mobs for saying something remotely critical about the comic.

[Ernest]

Jeph works really hard, it's best not to bother him.

And he puts his work out there for our scrutiny, praise, and criticism.  That's how it is, but you already knew that.

[Jackie Blue]

Jeph works really hard, it's best not to bother him.

As I said to him, if he gets so bothered by even the tiniest slight criticism of his work, he should stop reading the forums.

I was not being like ZOMG QC IS TEH SUCK.

[ScrambledGregs]

I watched these forums for damn near A YEAR before posting. I'm not saying everybody else should, I'm just saying...it is a good idea to read for awhile and THEN post. Forums tend to have their own little ways of doing things, insofar as cliques, jokes, and unspoken rules go.

[NiMRoD420]

Well, what did you say?

I want the juicy motherfuckin' details!

[NiMRoD420]

I watched these forums for damn near A YEAR before posting. I'm not saying everybody else should, I'm just saying...it is a good idea to read for awhile and THEN post. Forums tend to have their own little ways of doing things, insofar as cliques, jokes, and unspoken rules go.

Oh but that is so much trouble, sir. I have no such restraint. As... some... may have noticed. 

[David_Dovey]

Well then it's probably a bad idea to get shitty when people tell you to shut the fuck up.

[Jackie Blue]

Well, what did you say?

I want the juicy motherfuckin' details!

http://forums.questionablecontent.net/index.php/topic,14315.0.html

The part that I thought was particularly telling was that he immediately locked the thread after his last reply to me.

[Ernest]

Ah but Tommy, some bands slave over their work, and they certainly don't hold it in front of your eyes, and then you criticize it.  The only difference is that their stuff costs money, and you can always argue that, but it doesn't change the fact that QC is here for everyone to see and appreciate/criticize.

[Jackie Blue]

Ah but Tommy, some bands slave over their work, and they certainly don't hold it in front of your eyes, and then you criticize it.  The only difference is that their stuff costs money, and you can always argue that, but it doesn't change the fact that QC is here for everyone to see and appreciate/criticize.

Precisely.  I like QC on the whole, I was just voicing some relatively minor concerns, and furthermore, I was being pretty damn civil about it.  In Forumspeak, "General Discussion" does not mean "General Asskissing".  I don't get bothered in the least when somebody voices a mild criticism of my music or writing, especially not when I play live for people who may not even have known in advance what we sound like.

I'm just saying, again, if Jeph doesn't want critical reponse to his work in a place he's likely to see it, then he shouldn't host his own forum about it and read said forum.  I can't even think of more than a couple bands, writers or painters who personally run and participate in their own discussion forums.

The one glaring exception is that Terry Pratchett often posts to alt.fan.pratchett, and does so very tastefully, knowing not to get involved emotionally if someone says "You know, the last Discworld book just wasn't up to par" (which happens regularly).

[Jackie Blue]

It's Jeph's forum. If I had a problem I'd talk about it elsewhere

Yes, it's his forum, but it's his forum about HIS WORK.  In that context, discussion of HIS WORK is on-topic and relevant and if he cannot handle mild criticism he is free to not read a forum about his work or delete the forums which are dedicated to discussing QC.  Engaging in critical discourse with other fans is entirely on-topic for a forum dedicated to a piece of art, regardless of WHO runs it.

Anyway, do you actually think I said ANYTHING that was uncalled for?  Honestly?

[Jackie Blue]

Jeph has said "If you don't like the comic, don't read it", just like I advised. What you wrote about his comic was scathing

Did you miss the several times I made it a point to mention that I do like the comic?  I wouldn't have spent countless hours reading the strip from the beginning to catch up if I didn't like it.

And I really think "scathing" is hyperbolic.  Even the artists I most revere in the entire world "phone it in" sometimes.  I've seen Arcade Fire concerts that were appallingly shoddy.  The second to most recent Elf Power album was the very definition of Phoning It In, and they've made a couple of my favorite albums of all time.

Seriously.  Artists who cannot handle criticism are not likely to improve.  Hell, he could have just read the thread title "Faye is a Bitch" and figured out it was a thread he didn't need to read, don't you think?  Did anything positive come out of him participating in that thread?  I certainly don't think so.

[Johnny C]

I think your argument in the original thread comes from a faulty premise, honestly. I try and avoid saying this because it comes across as patronizing but here is a protip: sometimes authors create distasteful characters. Margaret Laurence's most splendid novel, The Stone Angel, deals with a protagonist who is, for all intents and purposes, really the antagonist of everyone else in the story, yet it's narrated from her perspective! She's an old crone! She's a stubborn hag! Yet what she does and what she represents has meaning. Her character is brought into sharp focus by her strained relationship with nearly every character. The novel is an excruciating read but an absolutely fabulous one.

I view Faye in the same light, and as such her character adds to the (admittedly slow-paced) dynamic of the comic. Unfortunately the truth is just because something isn't instantly endearing doesn't mean it's bad, especially in terms of narrative. Claiming something isn't funny anymore is a really weak complaint. Things have a nasty habit of maturing and expanding beyond their. If you don't like it, don't read it! The rest of us who still read it appreciate the shift.

If you desperately need a gag a day, comics like Married To The Sea and Perry Bible Fellowship are willing to provide you with unstructured, whimsical comedy. Nobody forces you to read this particular comic in the hopes that Jeph will reverse his trends and suddenly start providing nothing but laffs. If you are feeling upset about the comic's direction, you can voice it in a reasonable manner, but I would voice it to other readers in other locations rather than on a forum where people legitimately enjoy reading the strip. Never mind that it's Jeph's house, and nobody comes into your house and shits on the rug because they feel you've made a poor decision with placing it on your floor.

As an aside,

I've seen Arcade Fire concerts that were appallingly shoddy.

That's a shame. The one I went to was transcendent.