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[Jackie Blue]

All the "goth" people I know are hating the Hell out of the new Marilyn Manson CD.  Note that most of these are the kind of "goths" who don't actually ever bother listening to Bauhaus or Sisters of Mercy.  So naturally I had to give it a listen, because I love a lot of bands classified as goth (Pink Dots, Current 93, Love and Rockets, Swans, etc.) and I've never really hated anything Manson has done.

I'm really confused - musically it's probably the most interesting thing he's done to date.  The angular Wire-like guitar on "Heart Shaped Glasses", the ambient touches scattered around, it just sounds so much more mature than his previous material.

It beats the shit out of Year Zero, that's for sure.

[ScrambledGregs]

Wait, people actually take Manson seriously and listen to his albums these days?? Well I'll be damned.

[Jackie Blue]

Wait, people actually take Manson seriously and listen to his albums these days?? Well I'll be damned.

Gregs, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you are the epitome of the indie-rock dork.

Step out of your comfort zone.  Give different kinds of music a chance.

Don't be a hipster snob.

[Johnny C]

Yeah, I'm with Tommy. You assholes are all alike - "Don't drive in reverse everywhere."

[amok]

It beats the shit out of Year Zero, that's for sure.

High praise indeed.

That's a lotta unnecessary uses of the word 'goth' in a Marilyn Manson thread.

[Jackie Blue]

I know people who insist that Year Zero is the "best album of the year".

Granted, these are people who listen to Mindless Self Indulgence and claim to like heavy rock music yet have never heard of Pink.

As for overusing the word "goth", whatever.  I was putting my comments in context.

I apologize for not following the "reacharounds and sarcasm" format in my posting style.  I'll work on that.

[Storm Rider]

While you're at it, maybe you could work on eliminating the 'know-it-all dick' part too!

[Jackie Blue]

Dude, every other regular on here is a know-it-all dick.  It's a requisite for registering.

[schimmy]

Not many people are as aggressive as you are, though.

I've never actually listened to Manson. Though I did see an interview with him on T4 this morning. He seemed really boring, considering all the controversy surrounding him. I don't even know what sort of music he plays, I've heard it described by different people as metal and goth. When I think metal, I think thrash, when I think goth, I think Bauhaus. Which is he closer to?
Oh yeah, would you do me a favour and list your favourite bands so I know whether I should ignore you or not? Thanks.

[Storm Rider]

And if you're going to be a dick, you need to at least be funny, rather than indignant and holier-than-thou.

[Hat]

I am willing to suspend disbelief for long enough to acknowledge that Marilyn Manson is capable of making an album that is not complete dog piss. However, I don't feel comfortable spending the 60 or so minutes it will take to find this out for certain when there are albums and in fact entire classic bands that I would like to get into before I decide whether or not I like the new Marilyn Manson album.

[Jackie Blue]

I'm aggressive?  90% of my posts are just talking about how good something is or why I find it interesting.  I'm concerned with discussing music (y'know, in a MUSIC FORUM) instead of offhandedly dismissing it or turning every thread into a pissing contest.  There are lots of people who post on here that are more condescending than I am, they just pretend they're "joking" and thus get away with it.

I wouldn't know where to begin with listing my favorite bands, so I'll just copy and past the list from my myspace:

papa m, king loser, the twilight sad, boris, maserati, gong, the pipettes, sebadoh, the voodoo organist, the sundays, acid mothers temple, will oldham, velvet underground, do make say think, underworld, ghost, captured by robots, broken social scene, spiritualized, joy division, the legendary pink dots, sun city girls, joan jett, iron and wine, hawkwind, dead meadow, labradford, the real tuesday weld, devendra banhart, xiu xiu, interpol, annie, the kills, bauhaus, mono, jane's addiction, blue cheer, mercury rev, arab strap, a silver mt. zion, the jesus and mary chain, polyphonic spree, love and rockets, arcade fire, sonic youth, the beta band, mogwai, guitar wolf, the streets, pulp, negativland, black heart procession, the new year, bruce springsteen, godspeed you! black emperor, pink floyd, cabaret voltaire, explosions in the sky, swervedriver, neutral milk hotel, cat power, lady sovereign, the beatles, the cramps, pavement, future sound of london, sisters of mercy, nick cave, bob dylan, public enemy, the smiths, yo la tengo, psychic TV, bright eyes, the boredoms, red house painters, belle and sebastian, skinny puppy, the rolling stones, dead kennedys, front 242, DJ krush, third eye foundation, dirty three, trans am, tricky, flaming lips, TV on the radio, happy mondays, the for carnation

[schimmy]

There's quite a few good bands in that list, so I'd be willing to check out the record if I got the opportunity. But, as Hat pointed out, there's a great deal of good music out there, and a lot of it is stuff that I am more eager to try than Manson, so it's probably not going to happen.

And aggressive? Yes, I think so.

every other regular on here is a know-it-all dick

I find that insulting the entire forum is not a very nice thing to do. Nor does it lend credence to the argument you appear to have forgotten you are making.

I apologize for not following the "reacharounds and sarcasm" format in my posting style.  I'll work on that.

Again, insulting people is not the way to go. Perhaps if you do not like the posting style of this forum, you could join another, or start your own? There are plenty of people who would be willing to join a forum like that, I imagine.

Gregs, and I mean this in the nicest way possible, you are the epitome of the indie-rock dork.

Step out of your comfort zone.  Give different kinds of music a chance.

Do you know what sort of music Gregs listens to? I sure don't, so I'm going to stick to not stereotyping him.*
Do you know if Gregs has heard any of the tracks from the record? Perhaps that is why he* is passing judgment on it. Or perhaps, he* feels, quite justifiably, that Manson's past releases haven't been good enough for it to be worth giving him a chance this time.

*I am assuming Gregs is male, here. Sorry if you are not!


Now. Can we please start discussing the record? If you want to convince people it's good, try going into depth, with comparisons etc. rather than just insulting the people who are dismissing it, and the forum as a whole.

[Jackie Blue]

I wasn't insulting the forum, just pointing out that all of us could be considered know-it-all dicks.  I actually pretty much like everyone who posts here; it just so happens that they don't seem to care for me for whatever reason.

I remember when I joined, some people were saying how stale this forum was, and a couple people made a point of saying they hoped I would stick around.  But to get people to stick around a forum, you have to be more inclusive and go beyond the "sarcasm and reacharounds" I was referring to.  There's nothing wrong with doing that kind of stuff every now and then, but when it becomes the norm, it starts to make people feel like this is a "if you're not one of the cool kids, we will smirk at you until you leave" type of place.  And if it is, fine, OK, I'll leave.

I do have a pretty good idea of what Gregs listens to based on his posts.  I thought that a snarky offhanded and not even humorous dismissal ("People listen to Marilyn Manson??") was totally unneccessary.  If he has no interest in the band, why post in the thread at all?

Anyway, back on topic, the new Manson album is closer in tone to The Swans or similar bands.  It's less heavy, more moody, than what he's done before.  For the most part the over-the-top aggro singing has been replaced with over-the-top romantic moping, which suits me fine.  It's always been an odd thing to me that people will roll their eyes at someone like Manson moping and then turn right around and listen to Bright Eyes or Red House Painters - stylistically they're different, of course, but they're covering pretty damn similar "woe-is-me" territory.

I'm by no means suggesting anyone should buy the album over, say, anything on my list up there - I didn't actually buy it, and don't plan to - but I did think it was interesting enough to have a thread about.

For me, Manson has always been kind of an Eddie Vedder type - when Vedder said that famous quote about "the people listening to my band are the kind of people who used to beat me up in high school".  He's always been a lot smarter than his audience, and people who don't recognize his intelligence in interviews baffle me.

[KharBevNor]

Manson's an intelligent guy with some interesting ideas. Normally however I find that he has significant trouble in turning these ideas into good music. His lyrics and vocals are alright, but on most previous efforts the music itself has been pretty bland (what you might call the 'Tool problem'), though his very earliest stuff, the pre-major label affairs and Portrait of an American Family are alright. Wrapped in Plastic and Cake and Sodomy are classics. Haven't heard anything off this new album though, I may track down the singles on youtube.

[Jackie Blue]

I always thought his biggest problem was in making good albums.  He has made some great songs, but aside from Antichrist Superstar his albums have suffered from filler and, yes, a sense of musical blandness.  Like mid-era KMFDM, too many songs seemed produced into a tasteless mush without any real dynamics.

I'm very curious to see his film about Lewis Carrol.  Surely it can't be worse than what Rob Zombie has inflicted on the world...

[dancarter]

If the DVD that accompanied "Golden Age" is any indication, than the Lewis Carrol film will have some neat visuals and ideas, but in the end, more needlessly drawn out than most SNL skits.

As to the new album, I don't know what to think about it.  I'm getting the same sort of feeling that I got with Year Zero in that it doesn't seem finished.  Some interesting ideas all sort of jumbled together without too much coherence.  Not that I want coherence mind you, it's the same as YZ again in that there are others doing similar things with similar sounds and approaches, only much better than accomplished on either of these albums.

[imapiratearg]

I haven't heard a whole lot of Manson's stuff, but i listened to a few songs, and two of them sounded exactly the same in structure and such.  Which irritated me beyond belief, and it didn't put a favorable opinion of him in my mind.  I respect his as a person though, because, apparently, he's rather intelligent.

On topic:  His new album, is apparently, a vampire-themed album.  Which means my interests have been piqued.  I took a quick listen.  It's not as crappy as some of his older stuff.  I read an interview with him in Rolling Stone (not the best I know, the magazine tends to piss me off), in which he seemed like a cool guy, who made an honest effort, and did a decent job of taking his recent experiences and translating them into a coherent album.

Bravo Marylin Manson, bravo.

[Scytale]

I think almost anyone who was an unpopular disgruntled high school student during the 90's, ended up listening to 'Antichrist Superstar' at least once, he's music whether you like it or not has had a pretty major influence on almost an entire generation of people. Manson has always struck me as a very articulate person is all the interviews etc I've seen, which is more then can be said for a lot of musicians.

[KharBevNor]

There is still a sort of tradition amongst my friends that when we pass our old school in the car on the way to a night out we start playing 'Fight Song' on the stereo.

[MadassAlex]

Manson's an intelligent guy with some interesting ideas. Normally however I find that he has significant trouble in turning these ideas into good music. His lyrics and vocals are alright, but on most previous efforts the music itself has been pretty bland (what you might call the 'Tool problem'), though his very earliest stuff, the pre-major label affairs and Portrait of an American Family are alright. Wrapped in Plastic and Cake and Sodomy are classics. Haven't heard anything off this new album though, I may track down the singles on youtube.

This, except I've never really enjoyed Manson except for "This Is The New Shit".

[ScrambledGregs]

I hardly think I'm the epitome of the indie rock dork. I like good music, period, and in my opinion Manson is not good music. He has released a few entertaining singles and has only survived on his 'shock' value and controversy. I found it surprising that not only is he still releasing albums but that anybody actually cares about him anymore, so I posted.

I don't ever claim to be a know-it-all and I admittedly don't have the most wide taste in music, but I'm hardly someone who needs to expand his listening palette.

[Thrillho]

The recent single sounds half-decent.

I had no strong opinion one way or the other until I heard his cover of 'Personal Jesus,' at which point I thought 'even his covers sound exactly like all his other stuff.'

Then I heard the original. And I realised that he has actually just been ripping Depeche Mode off for fifteen years or so.

If I see any strong evidence that he has more than two songs in total, or that I want to get into him before I get into Coltrane, the rest of Dylan, the more obscure Floyd, or any of the other people I'm after, then maybe I'll give him a try. Otherwise, I'll give it a miss.

[KharBevNor]

Oh, there's no reason to seek out Marilyn Manson's work at all, except to get a handle on a somewhat infamous cultural icon. Similiar stuff to him has been done better all round: Rob Zombie and Deathstars both produced better commercially friendly industrial rock, and The Murderdolls/The Frankenstein Drag Queens/Wednesday 13/whatever they're called this week handle a very similiar shock rock aspect (Manson was even in one of their videos) with far more style and much less pretension. 'Dead in Hollywood', 'Dressed to Depress', 'God is a Lie', 'RAMBO' and 'Graverobbing USA' are all songs Manson wishes he could have written. For his earlier period, I always preferred (read: was completely obsessed by for at least a year) Jack Off Jill, a sort of cutesy-gothic lipstick and self-harm girl band Manson produced and distributed. All are definite 'guilty pleasures' of mine.

[Scytale]

I've always heard Jack Off Jill compared to Inkubus Sukkubus is that reasonably accurate at all?

[KharBevNor]

They both have female singers who wear black? Otherwise no. Jack Off Jill were a wierd teenage punk band that got more polished and commercial (and boring) on their second release, but still basically released three chord songs about no one understood their pain. They basically sounded like this on their first album:

Jack Off Jill - My Cat

And like this on the second album:

Jack Off Jill - Nazi Halo (unofficial video, obviously)

I like them really purely from nostalgia reasons, and also because I think they're really cute, especially the first album. Hardly listen to them nowadays though.

Inkubus Sukkubus on the other hand are a female-fronted Sisters of Mercy worshipping British goth rock band with a drum machine and a bodhran who sing about a mixture of fictional witchcraft and real religious paganism (This basically translates to all their songs being about witches, vampires, hating christianity, dancing in circles or fucking, sometimes all at once). They've released I think seven or eight full-length albums. They're really fun, and musically much superior to JoJ. They sound like this:

Inkubus Sukkubus - Wytches (Warning: Painfully silly NSFW musical video full of CGI witches fucking broomsticks and Haxan clips. Fucking awesome song though.)

Inkubus Sukkubus - Church of Madness (less naked CGI witches, more 'OH NOES TEH BURNING TIMES'. Still a good song.

[Jackie Blue]

I found it surprising that not only is he still releasing albums but that anybody actually cares about him anymore, so I posted.

OK.  I thought you were trying to be "funny".  Where do you live?  Because every place I go, I see lots of people who still consider Manson to be a relevant musician, including, as I said in my first post, about three dozen friends of mine (and a few more dozen who aren't my friends).

I would never say that anyone "needs" to expand their musical palette, but I would argue that people need to expand their idea of what a musical palette consists of.  As I have been fond of saying in the past, I would never presume to tell anybody that Godspeed You! Black Emperor objectively better than Britney Spears.  Just because you don't "get" Manson and think he only survived on shock value does not mean there is nothing to "get" about his music at all, understand?

And that is why I made my "indie rock dork" statement.  Because in my experience only "typical indie rockers" make broad sweeping statements about how an artist is totally lacking in value, to the point that they think someone who enjoys them must have something wrong with them.

If people can sincerely enjoy Merzbow's solo material (which is something I doubt, but anyway) then people can certainly sinderely enjoy Marilyn Manson.

[Thrillho]

Oh, there's no reason to seek out Marilyn Manson's work at all, except to get a handle on a somewhat infamous cultural icon. Similiar stuff to him has been done better all round: Rob Zombie and Deathstars both produced better commercially friendly industrial rock, and The Murderdolls/The Frankenstein Drag Queens/Wednesday 13/whatever they're called this week handle a very similiar shock rock aspect (Manson was even in one of their videos) with far more style and much less pretension. 'Dead in Hollywood', 'Dressed to Depress', 'God is a Lie', 'RAMBO' and 'Graverobbing USA' are all songs Manson wishes he could have written. For his earlier period, I always preferred (read: was completely obsessed by for at least a year) Jack Off Jill, a sort of cutesy-gothic lipstick and self-harm girl band Manson produced and distributed. All are definite 'guilty pleasures' of mine.

I have huge respect for the guy for being intelligent. I've read interviews with him and he seems to be a very smart guy and had some interesting ideas about culture and crime which struck home with me. But his aims to be shocking have always just smacked of trying, to me at least. I had similar problems with the Sex Pistols, who seemed to be making such an EFFORT to be shocking that it stopped working as far as I was concerned, at least.

[Jackie Blue]

I had similar problems with the Sex Pistols, who seemed to be making such an EFFORT to be shocking that it stopped working as far as I was concerned, at least.

While they may seem quaint now, at the time for them to be doing what they were doing on a major label probably was actually very shocking, just as Jane's Addiction's Nothing's Shocking was far more radical at the time of its release than it seems today.

[MadassAlex]

And that is why I made my "indie rock dork" statement.  Because in my experience only "typical indie rockers" make broad sweeping statements about how an artist is totally lacking in value, to the point that they think someone who enjoys them must have something wrong with them.

No, metalheads and progressive rock fans do this, too.

[Jackie Blue]

True that.

[KharBevNor]

Despite the sweeping advances of post-modernism, I do think there can be something in that sometimes.

[Thrillho]

I had similar problems with the Sex Pistols, who seemed to be making such an EFFORT to be shocking that it stopped working as far as I was concerned, at least.

While they may seem quaint now, at the time for them to be doing what they were doing on a major label probably was actually very shocking, just as Jane's Addiction's Nothing's Shocking was far more radical at the time of its release than it seems today.

I realise that, it just doesn't hit home with me. It's so bizarre because I can understand how shocking the Beatles were in their time and how innovative they were even just from putting a chorus first in 'She Loves You,' but even knowing what the Pistols did just won't hit home with me and I'll always take Black Flag and Refused over the Pistols.

[loyalpeon]

Despite the sweeping advances of post-modernism, I do think there can be something in that sometimes.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and throw my name into that hat as well. Whether the reason is biological or sociological or whichever the case may be, I can't honestly say - I have done nowhere near enough research for that. However, it is somewhat indicative that people actively interested in music who share a relatively wide palette seem to, at least in my experience, somewhat converge on their interpretation of value/quality/whatever. But that's another thread entirely.

On topic, Manson was, for me, an important stepping stones into music, so I retain a nostalgic/biased view of his stuff. I haven't heard his new stuff, but I'm sure I'll give it, if nothing more, a cursory listen at some point soon and check back in.

[Kai]

but even knowing what the Pistols did just won't hit home with me and I'll always take Black Flag and Refused over the Pistols.

That's because Refused was an incredible band


Black Flag... Damaged was pretty good I guess

[KharBevNor]

What I meant with my point is what we'll call the 'Insane Clown Posse dilemma'. You can go on all you want about how you can't make sweeping statements about how artists are valueless and anyone who likes them sucks, but you can never find anything good to say about ICP, and you can never find a single ICP fan who isn't a shithead. If you qualify this as pertaining only to a bands rabid fans, rather than people who may just like an artist as a 'guilty pleasure' or whatnot, then you can cast the net a lot wider: for example, if you are a rabid Cannibal Corpse fan, you probably suck much more than if you occasionally rock out to 'Hammer Smashed Face'; If you would pay good money to deliberately see Hatebreed live, then you are much more deserving of a bullet between the eyes than someone who kind of likes that 'NOW IS THE TIME TO RISE TO MY FEET' track.

What I am basically saying is ICP killed post-modernism.

[fish across face]

Psst... think you mean "relativism".  I agree with your point tho.

[Jackie Blue]

I'm going to have to disagree.  I actually have heard ICP songs that I considered to be good, and know at least a few people who listen to them that are very intelligent.

Granted, 99.9% of them are shitheads, yes.

I'd say that a better example than ICP would be something like Avenged Sevenfold or Limp Bizkit.

[Johnny C]

[INSERT "NO TRUE SCOT" ARGUMENT HERE]

[Jackie Blue]

But Tommy, ICP have put out a whole lot of albums.  Have you listened to all of them?  I kind of doubt it.  I was genuinely surprised when a friend of mine played a couple of their albums and there really were some decent songs on them.

My vote for the absolute literal worst band ever is The Gossip.

[Jackie Blue]

I honestly can't think of a band I like less than The Gossip.  They're like, what if The Liars were retarded and hired a really bad drag queen to sing for them.

[ScrambledGregs]

But Tommy, ICP have put out a whole lot of albums.  Have you listened to all of them?  I kind of doubt it.  I was genuinely surprised when a friend of mine played a couple of their albums and there really were some decent songs on them.

My vote for the absolute literal worst band ever is The Gossip.

I have a collection of poison in my room. I think that poison is the worst fucking food ever, having tasted one kind of poison. But I guess I can't say that poison is the worst food ever unless I've tasted the other bottles as well.

So in this case my vote for absolute worst food ever is ice cubes, because I've eaten all the different kinds of ice cubes possible and they were all crap.

[Jackie Blue]

I have a collection of poison in my room. I think that poison is the worst fucking food ever, having tasted one kind of poison. But I guess I can't say that poison is the worst food ever unless I've tasted the other bottles as well.

Comparison fails.  What you're saying there is more akin to people who dismiss entire genres; ie "I haven't heard most rap music, but the rap I have heard sucks, therefore rap music all sucks".

Tommy said "At least Limp Bizkit covered Waiting Room", which is a fair statement.  My point was that if Tommy listened to every ICP album he may find that they similarly have "that one redeeming thing" that keeps them from being the Worst Band Ever, and that he simply hasn't been exposed to it.

Carrying this argument to its logical conclusion, you seem to be implying that someone can listen to "Dancin' in the Streets" and conclude that David Bowie and Mick Jagger are completely talentless.

If one is to make a statement about an artist, one has to have a sufficient sample size to make a non-ignorant statement.  What that sample size is, I wouldn't presume to say, since it's different for every artist.

One could listen to the last three REM albums and logically conclude that REM is a shit band.  But they would be misled by the radical disparity in style and composition between different eras of REM, so it would be an ignorant statement to say that the band itself is shit based only on their three shit albums.

Basically what I'm getting at is that dismissing any band or musician entirely is usually unwise; it's more useful and realistic to approve of or dismiss individual songs or albums that you have actually heard.

[KharBevNor]

Are the Gossip the band fronted by that chubby punk lass? I don't think I've ever heard them but I rather despise them because they seem to be letting themselves be used by the NME as reflectors of glory for that horrible little rag to bathe in.

I don't think there's anyway they could possibly be as bad as ICP though. The Limp Bizkit and Avenged Sevenfold comparisons also don't make much sense. Fair enough, Limp Bizkit were absolutely execrable, but they didn't pursuade their fans to dress up as fat retarded clowns. Nor, from what little I can remember (I have a bad memory for shite) of their lyrics did Limp Bizkit ever sing about killing homosexuals with an axe, which, I believe, ICP did. Avenged Sevenfold are merely bland, with a mere icing of fucking annoying.

Relativism, in the terms of value judgements like this, seems to me an integral component of post-modernism. It's also the component I most despise.

[Kai]

plus Avenged Sevenfold's music videos are downright hilarious, which gives a couple extra points

[loyalpeon]

Basically what I'm getting at is that dismissing any band or musician entirely is usually unwise; it's more useful and realistic to approve of or dismiss individual songs or albums that you have actually heard.

And even that's tricky if you consider than, to some extent at least, your appreciation of any new experiece (a new album you just heard for example) is influenced by the mood you were in at the time (pre-disposition towards the new event, ability to absorb, etc) and your currently held pre-conceptions of what you're about to experience, amongst others.

Counter-argument here is that you could listen a handful of times, thus mitigating the risk of the first point having a significant impact, which could work to some extent, but is a somewhat impractical solution as, at any rate, you solidify your convictions with each new listen and are unlikely to change your mind without some new stimuli.

Having said that, the worst band that ever existed is totally Creed. They make Limp Bizkit look talented.

[Thrillho]

but even knowing what the Pistols did just won't hit home with me and I'll always take Black Flag and Refused over the Pistols.

That's because Refused was an incredible band


Black Flag... Damaged was pretty good I guess

It's more the political and social viewpoints than the music...at least in Black Flag's case. Plus the sheer fire and anger and passion in it.

[Jackie Blue]

OK, surely we can all agree that Earth Crisis is in the Top 3 Worst Bands of All Time, right?

[amok]

Last time I saw that pic on another message board I was told that's actually a girl but I still don't see it.

[ScrambledGregs]

On the back of her head it says "nice tits." That's how you can tell if it's a girl or not in any situation. Check the back of his/her head.