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Author Topic: Foundation of Punk  (Read 26618 times)

Soidanae

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Foundation of Punk
« on: 12 Jun 2007, 19:44 »

What listening is required in the hopes of gaining any understanding of punk?

The hope is that this thread results not in a favorite band list, but rather in a collection of movement-defining bands that made good music form which one can jump into even better (if, of course, there is any.  Sometimes there isn't.)

Including decent justification is a plus.  Calling others on sucky justifications--also a plus.

The Ramones--drew the rough edges and presented the first big name of punk.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #1 on: 12 Jun 2007, 20:00 »

In no particular order:

The Stooges, The Stranglers, X-Ray Spex, Bad Brains, The New York Dolls, Dead Kennedys, The Sex Pistols, Television, The Clash, Cock Sparrer, Black Flag, The Voidoids, Crass, The Misfits, Stiff Little Fingers, Angelic Upstarts, The Anti-Nowhere League, Blondie, The Damned, The Meteors, Siouxsie & The Banshees, New Model Army.

That'll keep you busy.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #2 on: 12 Jun 2007, 20:01 »

Wow, this could be a tough one…my list would go something like this:

The Clash
Black Flag
Dead Kennedys
Bad Religion
Minor Threat
Operation Ivy
NOFX
Dropkick Murphy’s
Rancid

I think that covers most of the major sub-genres of punk with the best known band that defines that particular style.

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #3 on: 12 Jun 2007, 20:31 »

In addition to the Stooges I'd suggest listening to the Modern Lovers' first (self-titled) album, and also checking out the M.C.5. They could all be considered significant proto-punk bands. As for personal favourites, most of mine have been mentioned already. If you're interested in American west coast punk then you should check out X, especially their first couple of albums: Los Angeles and Wild Gift.

In terms of the original 1970s punk movement, you kind of have to ask yourself: are you interested in punk as a musical style, or as an artistic statement? Your answer to that question will probably lead you to either the English (for the former) or the American (for the latter) punk scenes. Personally I think the more interesting bands generally came out of the American scene, and while we may these days struggle to identify them as "punk" per se, bands and artists like Television, Talking Heads, and Patti Smith were all highly important in that scene and all made great music, too. If you're interested in how a punk attitude can be applied to other musical styles, check out the Pogues (Irish folk music meets English punk), especially their first couple of albums.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #4 on: 12 Jun 2007, 21:18 »

Fugazi.  Influential in both the punk and indie rock genres.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #5 on: 12 Jun 2007, 21:37 »

Mission of Burma
Joy Division
The Fall
Wire
Gang of Four
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #6 on: 12 Jun 2007, 21:42 »

A good list so far, listen to the thermals as well. As far as I can tell, tey are as close as anyone is getting to great punk at the moment... (feel free to enlighten me)
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #7 on: 12 Jun 2007, 21:50 »

listen to the thermals as well.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

Sorry, but The Thermals are sickeningly poppy and derivative.  Bad in the first degree.  Listen to Hot Snakes instead.
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Where I come from, we usually just shorten that to "yee-haw!"

rasufelle

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #8 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:31 »

This is difficult in many ways.  For one thing, when you say 'understanding of punk', do you mean the history of punk, the structure of punk, the lifestyle associated with punk, or the general lyrical/musical thrust of the music nowadays?

I'm going to compose this list, rather than as an overview of punk, more as a 'beginner's introduction to punk'

If what you're looking to do is introduce a new person to Punk, there are several more modern variations you can use as kind of a feeder to get them to understand the older bands, and these are:

-Street Punk
-Ska Punk
-Punk Rock/ Pop Punk

Depending on the type of person you are letting hear the music changes the type you want to get them to listen to.  For example, someone who listens to Heavy Metal, Speed Metal, or Hard Rock would probably most easily associate with Street Punk, while someone into Pop, Emo, or Dance would more easily be swayed by the Pop Punk and Punk Rock varieties.  A few examples of each include:

Street Punk- The Briefs, Anti Flag, The Bastards
Ska Punk- Less Than Jake, Mighty Mighty Bosstones, Rancid, some older No Doubt
Punk Rock/Pop Punk- Sum 41, Bowling for Soup, Green Day

Most of the bands in the above listing are easy to find and have at least some amount of mainstream commercial success, but there are many others within those genres that would work just as well.

Once you've got them hooked, you can stop worrying so much about genre restrictions and go all out.  At the next stage, you may still want some mainstream recognition, but you don't have to worry about as mainstream a sound any more, so some bands I would recommend:

Bad Religion, Pennywise, Flogging Molly, Millencollin, Offspring, Sublime, etc.

These bands still have a certain amount of crossover success, but in some cases these groups are less accessible than the recommended 'starters' unless you already have a certain love for punk and/or alternative music.

Next, we step once more backwards, going into the '80s, when we get the more 'new wave' sound going for most punk, but it is still needed to understand a lot of the oldest music.  However, depending on the earlier used bands, skipping this step may be advised as many will see it as a 'step back', so to speak, on the lesson in punk.

Talking Heads, Devo, The Cure, Blondie, etc.

NOW, the granddaddies.  By this time, they will either appreciate the music or not.  These are the standards every punk musician should worship at the idols of, and the list is extensive.  I'll stick to three or four examples, though.

Sex Pistols, The Clash, Iggy Pop, Toy Dolls, X, etc.

And, that should pretty well make anybody a convert to punk.  Then again, I could make another progression using Folk Punk or Cowpunk to convert those poor souls who listen to country, but I think I'll be flamed enough for the recommendations I've already made.
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Johnny C

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #9 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:42 »

Have you read the book Please Kill Me: An Oral History Of Punk by Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain yet?

That's the best way to get an understanding of punk.

Richard Hell & The Heartbreakers are pretty ace too.
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Kai

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #10 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:48 »

LOVE COMES IN!



SPUURRRRRRRRRTSSSSS
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Inlander

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #11 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:52 »

FUCK. I knew I was forgetting someone!
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #12 on: 12 Jun 2007, 22:55 »

Guys, stop talking about post-punk bands. Great as Joy Division, The Fall, Gang of Four, The Cure, Devo and whatnot are, they aren't exactly crucial to understanding punk. For understanding how punk influenced other things, yes.

Also, mentioning bands like NOFX, Bowling For Soup and Pennywise in the same thread as the Ramones, The Stooges and The Anti-Nowhere League is absolutely sickening and should in no way be allowed.

Man, yeah, I forgot the Heartbreakers. But I did mention the Voidoids. Tbh I get confused between the two half the time.
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Johnny C

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #13 on: 13 Jun 2007, 00:01 »

JD I think we can allow. A song like "Transmission" is pretty punky.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #14 on: 13 Jun 2007, 01:00 »

JD started out as a punk band (think more songs like Warsaw and Interzone) but I don't think what they did in their punk stage was particularly seminal or noteworthy, execept for how it relates to what they became and what came after them.

Also, tbh I'd consider Transmission to maybe be an archetypical post-punk song.
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Gridgm

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #15 on: 13 Jun 2007, 02:08 »

nomeansno are generally credited with alot of the creation of math rock while still managing to play solid punk, most people say wrong is their best album but i would personally recomend 0 + 2 = 1
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Omnicide

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #16 on: 13 Jun 2007, 03:52 »

My advice to you: buy a Nuggets anthology. If you're interested in where punk came from, these things are a treasure trove. Minutemen's Double Nickels on the Dime will give you hours of fun too.


Then we move into Television,

 In Britain, I think the post-Punk movement was the most interesting era with bands like Magazine, Gang of Four, Public Image Limited and the Pop Group.

Never understood how Television could be classed as punk. Too light and ephemeral sounding, even with Hell's influence and Verlaine's vocals.

Yeah, post-punk bands tend to have aged far better than the first wave. The pistols have aged like milk in the sun.
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Misereatur

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #17 on: 13 Jun 2007, 03:56 »

I think it's safe to call Television a proto-punk band.

Whatever you want to call them, they were a good band and they influenced some major Punk and indie artists.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #18 on: 13 Jun 2007, 04:13 »

Nofx were the band that got me into punk, and are still one of my favorites. I guess i fail at life, khar? Anyway, dude needs to check out cock sparrer.
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Scytale

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #19 on: 13 Jun 2007, 04:58 »

I don't listen to a lot of Punk but seriously I adore Refused, fucking awesome stuff.  One of the few '90's punk bands I really like. Maybe not essential to understanding punk but good stuff anyway.

Aside from that I enjoy The Clash, The Fall and The Misfits. Some of those bands are probably not strictly 100% punk, I enjoy them though and hell thats what counts.

Does DRI count as punk? probably not I enjoy them as well.

I'm not such a fan of Bad religon, NOFX etc, dunno why it just doesn't do much for me
« Last Edit: 13 Jun 2007, 05:02 by Scytale »
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #20 on: 13 Jun 2007, 05:31 »

DRI were hard core for the first two albums and then got classified as "cross-over" from thrashzone onwards...apparantly that means i hybrid of hardcore and thrash

remind me what metalcore define themselves as again
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Misereatur

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #21 on: 13 Jun 2007, 05:39 »

Everyone needs to hear 'Marquee Moon'.

Also, DRI are cute.
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KharBevNor

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #22 on: 13 Jun 2007, 06:24 »

remind me what metalcore define themselves as again

A load shitter than crossover.

Also, the first crossover punk band was Motorhead, and if you disagree with me we can fight it out with fists and Doc Martens.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #23 on: 13 Jun 2007, 06:45 »

The second wave of American punk I wouldn't give a damn for except for the Germs and X.

Not sure when you're dating the first wave of American punk, but I'd put X in there: Los Angeles was first released in the U.S. in 1979. Unless you're counting bands such as the Stooges and the Modern Lovers as the first wave, but I'd classify them more as pre- or proto-punk.
« Last Edit: 13 Jun 2007, 06:47 by Inlander »
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asyluman

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #24 on: 13 Jun 2007, 06:48 »

Have you read the book Please Kill Me: An Oral History Of Punk by Legs McNeil and Gillian McCain yet?

That's the best way to get an understanding of punk.

Great book.  I always recommend it in punk conversations.

Listen to old surf and garage, then listen to MC5, then listen to the Stooges, then the Ramones, then the Sex Pistols, then the Clash,then the new stuff.
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Spalove

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #25 on: 13 Jun 2007, 09:13 »

Start with the 60s garage bands like the Monks, The Sonics, the Wailers, the Kingsmen, 13 Floor Elevators, Chocolate Watchband, the Trashmen etc

Also listen to the Kinks, Beatles, Yardbirds, early Rolling Stone The Who etc


Now move onto the proto-punk. Here you will find a ton of great bands/artist; all different but equally important to the movement. Velvet Underground, Patti Smith, the Stooges, Television, MC5, Mott the Hoople, David Bowie, New York Dolls etc.

To get into the experimental side of punk, start with Syd Barrett, Captain Beefheart Jonathan Richman.



For American punk rock start with the Ramones.
Then move onto the Clash, Buzzcocks, The Damned, The Jam etc

 Public Image Ltd, Husker Du, Gang of Four, Wire, Minutemen, Replacements

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Kai

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #26 on: 13 Jun 2007, 09:48 »

guys

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #27 on: 13 Jun 2007, 18:41 »

Also, mentioning bands like NOFX, Bowling For Soup and Pennywise in the same thread as the Ramones, The Stooges and The Anti-Nowhere League is absolutely sickening and should in no way be allowed.

I disagree.  While none of the bands you mentioned are "classic" punk rock bands you intially suggested, like it or not they did redefine what punk was.  By your reasoning, someone asking about "rock" music would listen to Chuck Berry, Bill Haley, Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis while disregarding later bands like the Rolling Stones.

Off topic, did anyone else find it disturbing when NOFX started to sound like the bands that were trying to sound like NOFX?

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #28 on: 13 Jun 2007, 18:47 »

Khar was more refering to the fact that bands like NOFX, Bowling For Soup, and Pennywise are pretty dire, whereas The Ramones, The Stooges, and The Anti-Nowhere League are pretty excellent.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #29 on: 13 Jun 2007, 19:34 »




seriously pennywise are balls
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but the music sucks because the keyboards don't have the cold/mechanical sound they had but a wannabe techno sound that it's pathetic for Rammstein standars.

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #30 on: 13 Jun 2007, 19:57 »

like it or not they did redefine what punk was.

If so, what they redefined it as was 'shit'. They were also all rip-offs of Bad Religion to some extent. And Bad Religion were/are only minorly better.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #31 on: 13 Jun 2007, 19:57 »

I continue to disagree with the general opinion expressed on the relative merits of Pennywise and NOFX.





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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #32 on: 13 Jun 2007, 20:27 »

And I am sure you are the coolest kid in your high school class.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #33 on: 13 Jun 2007, 20:58 »

I have Punk In Drublic.  I also have a ton of other NOFX albums.  I don't listen to them much anymore.  I wouldn't really call them an integral part of punk, but they have a bit of influence.  Either I haven't listened to enough punk or something, but I have yet to hear a band that sounds exactly like them.  :|
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #34 on: 13 Jun 2007, 21:09 »

I can't believe nobody has mentioned The Gun Club yet.  Fire of Love is one of the absolute best early-80s punk albums ever created.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #35 on: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57 »

Kai, fuck you. I wanted to use that comic.
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Scytale

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #36 on: 14 Jun 2007, 00:36 »

On the subject of NOFX has anyone heard that Decline song they did? I wasn't a fan of the music but I thought the lyrics were really well done. One of my good friends in high school were into all those bands (NOFX Bad Religion Pennywise ,AFI etc...), these days he listens to almost nothing except Kraftwerk, The Smiths and Joy Division it's strange like he's personality changed overnight one day or something.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #37 on: 14 Jun 2007, 00:52 »

All eighteen minutes of "The Decline" are the best argument for NOFX.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #38 on: 14 Jun 2007, 01:44 »

One of my good friends in high school were into all those bands (NOFX Bad Religion Pennywise ,AFI etc...), these days he listens to almost nothing except Kraftwerk, The Smiths and Joy Division it's strange like he's personality changed overnight one day or something.

It sounds like he grew some taste.

(I still like old Bad Religion, though.)
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Scytale

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #39 on: 14 Jun 2007, 02:01 »

All eighteen minutes of "The Decline" are the best argument for NOFX.
Not too mention the way the record is pressed is pretty cool as well, it's like molded into the shape of the sleeve cover kind of gimicky but also very cool, I think it's done in clear vinyl or something.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #40 on: 14 Jun 2007, 07:13 »

There's been so many suggestions here that I've not read them. But if no-one's mentioned the MC5's Kick Out The Jams yet, I highly recommend it.

Once you have a foundation in punk, I suggest you get Refused's The Shape Of Punk To Come.
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #41 on: 14 Jun 2007, 10:47 »



Alright, here's the whole NOFX/Propagandhi thing:  Fat Mike asked them to be on his craptastic compilation "Rock Against Bush."  They said they would as long as Fat Mike knew that they hated both candidates.  Now Fat Mike was in cahoots with this billionaire named George Serose who (in Fat Mike's words) ". . . makes his money screwing over third-world countries. . ."   Now that's some pretty shady business right there.  Anyway, George Serose hates Bush too so he was going to have his company send out hundreds of thousands of e-mails advertising Rock Against Bush (essentially spamming).  When Propagandhi sent in their song they insisted that next to it on the track list on the back of the album it would say "This message not brought to you by George Serose."  Fat Mike declined and refused to let them be on the album.  So basically Fat Mike chose to be loyal to a character almost as (if not more) bad as Bush rather than a band he had been friends with for well over ten years. 

On Propagandhi's most recent album, "Potemkin City Limits," which kicks the shit out of anything ever released by NOFX they have a song called "Rock For Sustainable Capitalism" which references (among other things) what a hypocrite Fat Mike is.
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Where I come from, we usually just shorten that to "yee-haw!"

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #42 on: 14 Jun 2007, 11:40 »

I think things pre-1980 have been very well covered. But there are a fair few things after that I think merit some investigation if you were to get a really good handle on punk rock as a whole.

Emo - Rites of Spring, Moss Icon, (early) The Promise Ring and Braid will give a nice overview of the chest-tapping style. Think hardcore guys starting to make indie rock but with the same kind of aesthetic.
Screamo - Different enough from the above emo bands to warrant some recommendations on its own. Orchid, Mohinder, Love Lost But Not Forgotten and La Quiete (for the contemporary feel) are good examples. Screamo's basically what happens when emo dudes decide to get all hardcore again, write songs about police brutality and cultural theory and realise that grindcore is dead good.
Grindcore - It is dead good. Listen to Napalm Death (not much of a fan myself but you can't ignore them) and Discordance Axis. Very fast, very angry.
Powerviolence - Spazz, Despise You and Man Is The Bastard are all you need.
Thrash - Play fast, eh? Listen to D.S.-13, Voorhees, Urko, Scholastic Deth, Limp Wrist and Out Cold.
Youth Crew - Gorilla Biscuits and Youth of Today for the old school and Ten Yard Fight and In My Eyes for the revival. Positivity, gang vocals, lifting weights and never drinking. Good stuff.
Metalcore - Chug is not a crime. Acme, Converge, Skycamefalling and Thirty Seconds Until Armageddon are all amazing. Think bitterness, veganism and lots of Belgians being deadly serious.
Crust - Amebix and Antisect are generally regarded as the classics, but personally I have much more time for Antischism, His Hero Is Gone, Tragedy, Doom and Anti-Product. This stuff's not worth bothering with if you're averse to squats, feminists and really pissed-off anarchists.
Pop Punk - I think some of the examples that have been given for this have been a bit weak, it's not all about Epitaph and Fat Wreck, especially not these days. The Descendents are great but actually with this style I always think labels like Lookout, Snuffy Smile, Crackle! and No Idea are more important than the individual bands.
Discore - I love the fact that there's an entire genre devoted to sounding as much like Discharge as possible. To be honest though Discharge are the only band really worth bothering with.
Noise Rock - Unsane, The Jesus Lizard, AIDS Wolf, XBXRX, Melt-Banana, Trencher, Lightning Bolt... okay, noise rock's not the best term for this kind of thing but it all sort of fits together, it's all good and it's all very definitely punk.
Folk-Punk - Punks with acoustic guitars and vegan baking. Ghost Mice, Defiance Ohio, This Bike Is A Pipe Bomb and Rumbleseat are all you'll need.

I'm probably missing out a vast amount but that'll do for now.
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Quote from: De_El
Next time, on QC Forums: someone embarrassingly reveals that they are a homophobe! Stay tuned to find out who!

KharBevNor

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #43 on: 14 Jun 2007, 12:32 »

You used the term 'folk-punk' and failed to mention New Model Army? FOR SHAME. FOR SHAME.
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IronOxide

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #44 on: 14 Jun 2007, 12:38 »

A ctrl+f of this thread did not show any mention of Jawbreaker.

I feel as if I needed to change that.
« Last Edit: 14 Jun 2007, 12:40 by IronOxide »
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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #45 on: 14 Jun 2007, 13:39 »

Lawrence arms, you fucking cunts.
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Wait so you're letting something that happened 10 years ago ruin your quality of life? What are you, America? :psyduck:

E. Spaceman

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #46 on: 14 Jun 2007, 15:18 »

There's a handful of "classic" 'Punk" "bands" that are supposedly "good" but are actually a hodge of shite in my books -

Bad Religion
NOFX
Pennywise
Suicidal Tendencies
The Exploited
Sham 69
Literally every Ska-influenced "Punk" band.

Give them a very wide berth.

dude, no one thinks pennywise is classic.
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[20:29] Quietus: Haha oh shit Morbid Anal Fog
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KharBevNor

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #47 on: 14 Jun 2007, 15:25 »

Drunk khar thinks everyone should stop talking about shit bands. Drunk khar would also like to know when Suicidal Tendencies were ever punk.
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[22:25] Dovey: i don't get sigquoted much
[22:26] Dovey: like, maybe, 4 or 5 times that i know of?
[22:26] Dovey: and at least one of those was a blatant ploy at getting sigquoted

http://panzerdivisio

valley_parade

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #48 on: 14 Jun 2007, 16:06 »

As would sober shane.
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Ernest

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Re: Foundation of Punk
« Reply #49 on: 14 Jun 2007, 16:08 »

Ghost Mice, This Bike Is A Pipe Bomb

Both of these bands played shows about five minutes from my house.  I missed both shows.  Apparently they were good.  I did however catch the Two Man Gentlemen Band.
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Where I come from, we usually just shorten that to "yee-haw!"
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