Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[daniel40392]

Hey guys, was just browsing about and figured id set up a little forum topic here, im currently grade 4 at keyboard, bought a yamaha dgx 620 a while back and really liking it, but im starting to try write my own music.. only problem is im finding it a bit tricky, anybody got any advice about writting music? lyrics first or music first? any tips and tricks? all info would be well appreciated! i did have a small little band a while back but it didnt work, we didnt have the dedication! but yeah i was just curious, i play a bit of bass and guitar too but not exactly great on them. But please i could use some advice? anythings good! thank you all!

[Thrillho]

If you're just starting out, the tip for writing your first songs is to just rip off anything and staple it together so it sounds good. Some people have made healthy careers that way, but it also helps you see how good lyrics and songs are constructed musically and lyrically.

When you say keyboard - you can play piano, right?

[StaedlerMars]

What my friends and I do is someone writes the lyrics, and than I come up with a little guitar riff that sounds cool. Than we throw it back and forth, add the two together, add intros etc.

But I've only ever written two songs. And they were dreadful. So this might not be the best strategy.

If and when you do write something, be sure to post it here.

[Patrick]

I know Jimmy Page would dick around with his guitar with his tape recorder on at all times and go back and listen when he got bored. That's how he ended up writing "Stairway to Heaven," among many other of their finest pieces.

Also, while I'm in definite agreement with Gaz (DK) here, don't do what I did and start a band with your best mate, only to find out that the awesome song he "wrote" is an exact ripoff of "Walk, Don't Run" by the Ventures.

[IronOxide]

Write whichever comes first to you. It's a pretty personal thing. If you're really stuck, it's always easy to write a little progression and work from there.

[RyanT]

While you never want to rule out any route of composition, I think one good way is to write some lyrics, create a melody for the lyrics, and then fit chords to the melody.  While I definitely come up with some good riffs or chord progressions or whatever, or even a melody, it's a lot harder to fit lyrics into that.  It's not impossible by any means, but you have to get everything to fit into a set amount of syllables and everything.  That is, of course, assuming you have a melody line instead of monotone shouting like a lot of indie bands do now...  But anyway, that's my suggestion, so hopefully that helps.

[Kai]

play really close to your amp so it screeches, then mess with the pickup switch

[timehat]

Just use neopolitan chords all the time because they sound awesome.

[daniel40392]

Well first off, im getting lesson in "keyboard" but im self teaching myself piano, i can play a couple songs, most famous of course being stairway to heaven! *just a small example of how far my left hand goes playing" also can playing 1000 miles by vanessa carlton. thats about as far as my left hand really goes. besides that i can play piano songs, but not without a lot of practice beforehand!

As for the rest of the advice thats all pretty useful! thanks guys!

And i wasnt sure about those neopolitan chords?
i did a search online for them and kinda got the hang of them but arent they just completly different chords to the original one??
but yeah thanks for all the advice guys, keep it coming!

[Thrillho]

Good. Because with all honesty, in almost every case I've seen, being taught 'keyboard' doesn't mean jack shit. So learning to play on piano is good.

As far as your left hand - I've got by as a performer and writer whilst barely being able to do more than a root note with my left hand. As far as composition, you barely need it. Think of 'Imagine,' or many other of the Beatles' piano songs.

[RyanT]

Well, it's actually a Neapolitan, which is why it might not have been returning many search results.  But anyway, it's essentially a bII chord and a predominant, meaning you play the neapolitan, then the V.  If you're in the key of C Major, you'd play a Db Major triad, go to the G Major triad, and then go from there, whether a I or a iv, or a iii if you're feeling experimental... hehe

[daniel40392]

yeah i got that cheers! any other tips guys??

[Johnny C]

play really close to your amp so it screeches, then mess with the pickup switch

this should work incredibly well on a keyboard

[daniel40392]

i thought so 

[Kai]

play really close to your amp so it screeches, then mess with the pickup switch

this should work incredibly well on a keyboard

it would if he played a keytar

[Patrick]

Heh. Along those lines, I like cranking the gain up all the way (11, lol) on my amp and playing the guitar really close to it with a wah pedal. Just letting the guitar feed back into the amp and not playing it but still pumping the wah makes an epic police siren sound.

[timehat]

Well, it's actually a Neapolitan, which is why it might not have been returning many search results.  But anyway, it's essentially a bII chord and a predominant, meaning you play the neapolitan, then the V.  If you're in the key of C Major, you'd play a Db Major triad, go to the G Major triad, and then go from there, whether a I or a iv, or a iii if you're feeling experimental... hehe

Oops, sorry about the spelling mistake earlier. Also, note that the neapolitan can be used as a dominant as well as a predominant, because of tritone substitution.

[Khatt]

When you're in any sort of extreme mood, whether it be extreme happiness, sadness, anger, or whatever, take out a note pad and write down what's going on in your head. It's easier to find inspiration if you're feeling something in extremes, so I've found. Give it a try if you'd like. =)

[Johnny C]

it would if he played a keytar

not really dude

[Thrillho]

Heh. Along those lines, I like cranking the gain up all the way (11, lol) on my amp and playing the guitar really close to it with a wah pedal. Just letting the guitar feed back into the amp and not playing it but still pumping the wah makes an epic police siren sound.

You can also get a pretty good 'aeroplane flying past' sound along similar lines. I think a panning or flange effect works too if it's slow enough.

By the way, what the fuck is a neopolitan chord?

[RyanT]

By the way, what the fuck is a neopolitan chord?

Dude, we just explained it like four times...

[McTaggart]

This music theory stuff seems to me like just a big circle-jerk.

[KicktheCAN]

I know Jimmy Page would dick around with his guitar with his tape recorder on at all times and go back and listen when he got bored. That's how he ended up writing "Stairway to Heaven," among many other of their finest pieces.

I have tried this and it works really well, my only suggestion is a video camera instead of an audio only device, that way you can see what you are playing.

[Thrillho]

By the way, what the fuck is a neopolitan chord?

Dude, we just explained it like four times...

And I had no idea what any of it meant. I realise a triad is three of something, but what does it mean? Is the major triad just the 1st, the 3rd and the 5th, or waht?

[Johnny C]

This music theory stuff seems to me like just a big circle-jerk.

It is. Why do you think that I and so many others find popular music so damn liberating?

A Neapolitan chord is where you take the root note of the scale, move up two semitones, move one back, and build a major triad, which is the first, the major third and the fifth. See how easy that was to explain, guys?

[RyanT]

By the way, what the fuck is a neopolitan chord?

Dude, we just explained it like four times...

And I had no idea what any of it meant. I realise a triad is three of something, but what does it mean? Is the major triad just the 1st, the 3rd and the 5th, or waht?

Well, I would worry about learning triads and scales and stuff like that before worrying about Neapolitan chords...  But yes, a major triad is the 1st, 3rd, and 5th scale degrees of a major scale.  C, E, and G, for example, is a major triad.  It's a major third between the bottom two notes and a minor third between the top two notes (in root position, before anybody pounces on me about inversions...)  Like I was saying before, if you're in the key of C Major, a Db Major triad would be the neapolitan, which would be Db, F, and Ab.  It functions as a predominant, meaning that you play the neapolitan, then go to the five chord (G in C Major), then most of the time to the one chord (C in C Major) for the resolution.  

As Timehat said before, you can use it going ii - bII - I, which almost functions as a dominant feel, but it's not really a dominant resolution seeing as it's not a dominant chord.  The tritone substitution is moreso a means of voicing in the jazz language.  What this resolution creates is a descending half-step line to the tonic for the resolution instead of the dominant-tonic motion in an authentic cadance.  You also wouldn't really use this resolution in the classical realm without some fancy voicings because of parallel fifths.

This music theory stuff seems to me like just a big circle-jerk.

It is. Why do you think that I and so many others find popular music so damn liberating?

A Neapolitan chord is where you take the root note of the scale, move up two semitones, move one back, and build a major triad, which is the first, the major third and the fifth. See how easy that was to explain, guys?

Or couldn't you just move up one semitone?  Or to make it even easier to understand, one fret???

Popular music gets boring because it's always the same chord progressions over and over.  Sure, classical music can get boring because there's a lot of repetition going on there too, but they have more material to work with.  Sometimes I love the simplicity of popular music, but some of the stuff is ridiculously boring.


*splooge* [/sarc]

(What would you expect?  I'm a music composition major...)

[Kai]

guys if you get tired of simple chord progressions, the answer is not musical science.


the answer is "listen to Skullflower".

[Misereatur]

the answer is "listen to Skullflower".

listen to Skullflower.

listen to Skullflower.

[Thrillho]

This music theory stuff seems to me like just a big circle-jerk.

It is. Why do you think that I and so many others find popular music so damn liberating?

A Neapolitan chord is where you take the root note of the scale, move up two semitones, move one back, and build a major triad, which is the first, the major third and the fifth. See how easy that was to explain, guys?

Is that only on a major scale? Isn't that just, like, in G major, that's just the Ab major chord?

I'm not good at theory usually. But then I've never needed any more than what I know.

[Johnny C]

You can also do it in a minor scale.

[Thrillho]

Right, but was I right? The neopolitan chord for G major is Ab major?

[Johnny C]

Yep!

[Thrillho]

Right...may I ask why you go up a tone and then down a semitone instead of just going up a semitone?

[Johnny C]

Because that's how it's formulated, ridiculous as that sounds. I didn't invent the damn thing.

[Thrillho]

musik is lyk, dum, lol!

[RyanT]

Because that's how it's formulated, ridiculous as that sounds. I didn't invent the damn thing.

That's not how it's formulated...  It's just a bII. 

[Johnny C]

[IronOxide]

Irrelevent theory conversations aside, I just remembered something that is very important, and that is to WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN. Ideas tend to run away if you don't put a pen to paper.

[Thrillho]

Honestly, writing them down usually doesn't work either for me. Recording is what works best...that or playing it so much that you bludgeon it into your head.

[daniel40392]

writting down music is such a PAINFUL process, i can write proper sheet music.. but i dunno would take me way to long, so usually i tend to just write the notes but usually when im composing id play loads of different notes in a row, so it would take me a while to write down, any tips on how to actually WRITE music down fairly quickly and efficiently?

[timehat]

This music theory stuff seems to me like just a big circle-jerk.

Is it because you don't understand it, or is it because you're dumb?

[RyanT]

writting down music is such a PAINFUL process, i can write proper sheet music.. but i dunno would take me way to long, so usually i tend to just write the notes but usually when im composing id play loads of different notes in a row, so it would take me a while to write down, any tips on how to actually WRITE music down fairly quickly and efficiently?

I feel for ya.  The thing that has helped me the most is to just to practice writing any music so that you can notate accurately and quickly, like getting used to drawing all the notes and rests and rhythms and stuff without thinking twice.   The other thing that really helps is to develop your own short-hand.  If you ever see some of Philip Glass's notation, he doesn't write the repeating notes ('cause there's A LOT of them...).  He just writes it once and then draws stems and barlines, and he knows that every time following is the same notes in whatever rhythm he dictated.  Stuff like that, or maybe for chords or whatever.  The more you do all this, the faster you'll get.

[MadassAlex]

This music theory stuff seems to me like just a big circle-jerk.

Well no.

I mean it's not like every brilliant musician ever knows their theory in some way or another inside out.

[Thrillho]

Because that's how it's formulated, ridiculous as that sounds. I didn't invent the damn thing.

That's not how it's formulated...  It's just a bII. 

I think you missed what he was saying, and I think I just realised what he was saying. His point was that the II is a tone up from the root, and the neopolitan chord is a semitone down from the second, or a bII - i.e. to get a second you go up a tone, to get a flat second you go down one from that.

[RyanT]

Because that's how it's formulated, ridiculous as that sounds. I didn't invent the damn thing.

That's not how it's formulated...  It's just a bII. 

I think you missed what he was saying, and I think I just realised what he was saying. His point was that the II is a tone up from the root, and the neopolitan chord is a semitone down from the second, or a bII - i.e. to get a second you go up a tone, to get a flat second you go down one from that.

No, I understood that.  The only reason I said anything was because he was essentially saying "Take two steps forward and then one step back" whereas I'm saying "Take one step forward".  I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything about it.  I just think that music theory can get complex enough on its own, so I always try to make it as simple as I can.  I can't tell you how many people I've helped shed light on after theory class at school because the professor is explaining it in some big theoretical roundabout way.

[Johnny C]

I'd be on board with you but in all honesty I took forever to get that bII was a flat second. Whereas, two steps up you get a second interval, and one step back you get the root for the chord, and when someone plays that they suddenly understand what a second interval is and what a flat second interval is. I'll have to ask you to trust me on how this works because I've taught guitar lessons before and that method helps kids who have no idea what the hell an interval is to understand the concept.

[IronOxide]

Also, in functionality, the Neapolitan is not a sharp first, it is a flat second, so to somebody unaccustomed to the chord will have a more simple grasp on it.

[Kai]

[Thrillho]

Also, in functionality, the Neapolitan is not a sharp first, it is a flat second, so to somebody unaccustomed to the chord will have a more simple grasp on it.

That's essentially what I was saying.

[daniel40392]

3 Tracks Attempted, thought I might upload it and see if theres any.. constructive criticism? there still to be tampered with and there in midi format so sound quality doesnt really do it justice but you get the basic idea! so please take a look and let me know what you think

http://www.freewebs.com/danielmcmahon/compositions.htm