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[sandman263]

A discussion point, as from reading through this message board, there are some strong and excellent opinions on here....

Has alternative music become the new mainstream? As we approach year's end, the usual multitudes of "best of" lists are appearing. As I've flitted from blog to blog, website to website, I'm seeing the same artists again and again. Here's a random list, taken from around 15 "best of" selections, both here on QC, and on a large number of other blogs I frequent.

Arcade Fire - Neon Bible
Spoon - Ga Ga Ga Ga Ga
Wilco - Sky Blue Sky
LCD Soundsystem - Sound of Silver
Of Montreal - Hissing Fauna, Are You the Destroyer
The Fiery Furnaces - Widow City
The Field - From Here We Go Sublime
Radiohead - In Rainbows
Band of Horses - Cease to Begin
Animal Collective - Strawberry Jam
Battles - Mirrored
Boxer - The National

The same artists appearing, again and again.

Now, while most of these are not something I get my kicks from (and in some cases, I find quite boring), I fully accept that everyone has their own taste. My question is this: in the vast world of "alternative" music, where for every single mainstream release, there are a hundred releases that find their audience, and sell plenty of copies, how does the above happen - a convergence to the same artists and albums? How has the alternative music scene turned into the mainstream - why do a certain number of artists rise to the top, again and again? Is it simply a matter of taste? Is it just that all the blogs I read are run by people with identical tastes in music? 

To give you an idea, here's a few albums I didn't see anywhere.....

West - Lucinda Williams
The Shepherd's Dog - Iron and Wine
We Were Dead Before the Ship Even Sank - Modest Mouse
Family Tree - Nick Drake
The Con - Tegan & Sara
A Weekend in the City - Bloc Party
Magic - Bruce Springsteen

[a pack of wolves]

It happens through marketing, general critical consensus and people making pop records with mass appeal. Really, maybe only a couple of those artists you list are anything significantly alternative to what's been put out by major record labels for decades now (not, I hasten to add, is there anything necessarily wrong with this). Considering that Arcade Fire have massive adverts in big record shops for their records it's hardly surprising that they will do well in end of year lists by a lot of people. Also, I would say you probably do indeed frequent websites run by people with similar tastes. None of those records got more than the odd mention on the other music-based websites I go on where Wolves In The Throne Room and Burial were probably the most common choices.

[Tom]

You don't see We Were Dead or A Weekend in the City because they were pretty much crap.

In answer to your question, no not quite cause it has already happened. A lot of the bands that saw airplay on MTV and the like in the 90's were/are considered alternative and have left a lasting affect on pop culture.

[Jackie Blue]

This has been true for pretty much... always.

The "best" albums will always be listed in most year-end lists.  You may not like some of those albums, but generally they are there because they appeal to the most number of people in the most significant way.

Example: Boris' Pink was in the top 3 of almost every list last year.  Why?  Because it really was that fucking good.

Also, Bloc Party?  Are you serious?  Not to besmirch your taste in music but... I mean... Bloc Party?

I think the answer may lie with the fact that your tastes are more "mainstream" than the ones making the lists (to me, the concept of that Modest Mouse album making any year-end best-of list would pretty much cause me to dismiss the entire list).

For context, the best albums of the year for me, off the top of my head, were the ones by:

Maserati
Boris w/ Michio Kurihara
Liars
Okkervil River
Gowns
Explosions in the Sky
Do Make Say Think

...and some more I'm sure I'm forgetting.

[sandman263]

I think the answer may lie with the fact that your tastes are more "mainstream" than the ones making the lists (to me, the concept of that Modest Mouse album making any year-end best-of list would pretty much cause me to dismiss the entire list).

And this leads to my next question, and probably an unanswerable one - what is "mainstream"? (The additional list was not, in fact, my own list - just some albums that I know were critically acclaimed by non-mainstream websites & magazines in Ireland and the UK (where mainstream is the new Britney album, sadly....off the top of my own head, Explosions in the Sky, the National and Matthews Good and Ryan stood out for me this year).

As you said, and rightly so, "they are there because they appeal to the most number of people in the most significant way". However, this can be said about Britney, or Timbaland, or Kylie Minogue. What I find of most interest is that when you compare the number of (quality) mainstream music releases to the non-mainstream, on a global level, the non-mainstream far, far, far outnumbers the mainstream. I would have expected "best of" lists to therefore reflect this, since the sample pool is much, much larger. This makes me wonder - where do people who listen to non-mainstream music find out about it? And then, why do they all seem to gravitate to the same albums? The quality of those albums? Influences of their peers?

[a pack of wolves]

Mainstream is 'the prevailing trend of opinion, fashion, society, etc.' (according to the OED).

I'm not sure what you're trying to ask with this post. Timbaland and Kylie have done very well this year critically (Kylie more for singles, the album seems generally to be thought of as quite patchy), but based on the albums you list as coming up a lot probably not on the websites you read. Why certain albums do well and come up in a lot of people's lists for any type of music has already been answered. As for how people who listen to non-mainstream music find out about it: radio, magazines, internet, friends, gigs... all the ways you'd expect.

[Shadows Collide]

I wish someone would have had the balls to put Porcupine Tree on their list, seriously that album deserves as much attention as possible.

[Jackie Blue]

why do they all seem to gravitate to the same albums? The quality of those albums?

Yes.

I think your premise that there is a larger sample size of quality "non-mainstream" albums vs. quality "mainstream" albums is false.  In my experience, there are just as many terrible obscure bands are terrible mainstream bands.

[E. Spaceman]

Alternative become the new mainstream????
What the hell do you think this is, 1994?

[mfpole]

Look at Pitchfork's Individual Albums Lists and also the top 50 one.

The individual ones are pretty diverse and actually quite eclectic. Since the overall list is basically made by compiling these lists (at least I think it is) the ones that keep on showing up are the quality albums that appeal to more people. A quick search through the Individual lists shows that even though Panda Bear (the overall #1 artist) did not even appear on all the lists, he was the best represented.

I'm having trouble getting myself to remember why this is relevant so I'm just gonna leave now.

Yeah, and seriously, Alternative already became the new mainstream... like 15 years ago.

[Tom]

In answer to your question, no not quite cause it has already happened.

[Shadows Collide]

I think the song 1 2 3 4 has kinda hurt "The Reminder" as a whole.

1. It is the weakest song on an otherwise beautiful album

2.  She's been labeled as simple pop despite the refreshing, delicate nature of her music. Sure, there's pop there, but so much more as well.

3. Subsequently, she's not valued as much as "indie" stuff, not given as much respect from a lot of people.

Does anyone agree?

EDIT: Plus my brothers laugh at me when the iPod commercial comes on ("You're a pussy" comments thus ensue)

[Jackie Blue]

I don't see what's wrong with "1 2 3 4".

Speaking of songs in commercials, I really wish there was a recorded version of that Cat Power song in the necklace commercial that's a cover of a Cat Stevens song.  It's so beautiful.  But she only did it for the commercial.   

[Tom]

Scythian Empires by Andrew Bird was in an add this year, can't remember what for. Section 9 by the Polyphonic Spree was in an add for Mt. Franklin bottled water.

[Jackie Blue]

And let's not forget that none of you would be listening to Nick Drake if not for Volkswagen.

[öde]

Who the fuck is Nick Drake?

[KharBevNor]

The Mainstream is for...


PISSING IN!

Are you ready boys?



"Yes!"

LETS GOOOO



The media is a tool designed to mold us into slaves
Drugging us into an empty, apathetic daze.
The trick is that we think that everything is going fine
But the truth to our reality lies buried in the mind



I don't give a fuck about the Hollywood elite;
I don't really care if models can't fucking eat.
I don't give a fuck a fuck about which movie is on top.
But what I really know is that the shit has got to stop.

Consumer appetites are never satisfied in full,
Cause the objects that they buy can simply never fill the void.
A constant need for meaning, and accumulating shit,
drives the lust in their obsession just to get another fix.



I don't give a fuck about the TV ratings game,
The Real World is not a party, just a place for the insane.
If that reflects reality, then pass another drink
You try to be a millionaire, I'll vomit in the sink.



What the fuck is left to try,
on an avaricious nation on an economic high?
If Rome could last 500 years,
who then will throw the wrench inside our gears?

The bottom line is money on the Western power scene,
where celebrities and porn can let the population dream.
They're pathetic human living in an advertising glut,
who devour with a passion what the mainstream vomits up

[Shadows Collide]

I don't see what's wrong with "1 2 3 4".

Speaking of songs in commercials, I really wish there was a recorded version of that Cat Power song in the necklace commercial that's a cover of a Cat Stevens song.  It's so beautiful.  But she only did it for the commercial.   

I don't dislike it, in fact her sliding vocals are quite nice, but just in comparison to the rest of the album its overshadowed the other stuff.

[sandman263]

Who the fuck is Nick Drake?

Seriously?

I reallly, truly, hope you're joking here. If you're not, I'm scared. 

Nick Drake was the influence for a huge number of musicians over the last 40 years, across a very diverse number of genres.

[sandman263]

Alternative become the new mainstream????
What the hell do you think this is, 1994?

My main point is the fact that the universe of non-mainstream music is hugely larger than the universe of mainstream - however, we see the non-mainstream converge on the same popular albums again and again, similar to the mainstream. When I originally got into what was then termed non-mainstream (which can now be measured in decades), this didn't happen - end of year lists (where you could find them) were far more divergent, with very little overlap, and browsing through them would expose me to a huge number of new artists. This doesn't happen as much anymore. Maybe I should rename my post: "Why Has Alternative Music Behaviour Become Mainstream Music Behaviour?"

[a pack of wolves]

Maybe you should be looking at different end of year lists. Unless of course you've already heard this year's records by Taint, Mock Heroic, Pissed Jeans, Ulver, Army Of Flying Robots, Oxbow, Big Business, Shermer, Grails... All of them have done well in end of year lists I've seen.

[Jackie Blue]

end of year lists (where you could find them) were far more divergent, with very little overlap

I'm going to need some evidence on this.  As far back as 1988, end-of-year lists which considered "alternative" albums differed wildly by individual (as they do this year and always do) but end-of-year lists by publications have always gravitated toward the same things (ie everyone put Daydream Nation at #1).

[öde]

Nick Drake was the influence for a huge number of musicians over the last 40 years, across a very diverse number of genres.

People on gabbly tell me that his music is nice folky stuff so I guess I will check it out.

[sandman263]

I'm going to need some evidence on this.

Here's the end of year lists for eight publications in 1990. Some albums appear more often (Dee-Lite, LL Cool J, John Cale/Lou Reed), but to my eyes, about 75% of each list appears only once or twice.

NME:

# Pills 'n' thrills and bellyaches - Happy Mondays
# I do not want what I haven't got - Sinead O'Connor
# Fear of a black planet - Public enemy
# Ragged Glory - Neil Young & Crazy Horse
# Gold mother - James
# Behaviour - Pet shop boys
# People's Instinctive travels etc.. - A tribe called quest
# Floating - Julee Cruise
# Songs for drella - Lou Reed/John Cale
# World clique - Deee-lite
# Music from twin peaks - Angelo Badalmenti
# Goo - Sonic youth
# Nowhere - Ride
# Goodbye jumbo - World party
# Extricate - The fall
# The good son - Nick Cave
# The La's - The La's
# Bossanova - Pixies
# Reading, writing & arithmetic - The Sundays
# She hangs brightly - Mazzy star

The Face:

   1. DEE-LITE World Clique
   2. JULEE CRUISE Floating Into The Night
   3. A TRIBE CALLED QUEST Peoples' Instinctive Travels In The Paths Of Rhythm
   4. JUNGLE BROTHERS Done By The Force Of Nature
   5. BELOVED Happiness
   6. SOUL ll SOUL Vol 2 A New Decade
   7. PET SHOP BOYS Behaviour
   8. MONIE LOVE Down To Earth
   9. HAPPY MONDAYS Pills 'N' Thrills And Bellyaches
  10. BLAZE 25 Years Later
  11. ANGELO BADALAMENTI Music From Twin Peaks
  12. SINEAD O'CONNOR I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got
  13. PUBLIC ENEMY Fear Of A Black Planet
  14. THE SHAMEN En-Tact
  15. LL COOL J Mama Said Knock You Out
  16. TEN CITY State Of Mind
  17. THE CHARLATANS Some Friendly
  18. STEREO MCS Supernatural
  19. ROBERT OWENS Rhythm's In Me
  20. THE SUNDAYS Reading, Writing And Arithmetic

OOR:

   1. LIVING COLOUR: Time’s Up
   2. Neil YOUNG & CRAZY HORSE: Ragged Glory
   3. WORLD PARTY: Goodbye Jumbo
   4. The POGUES: Hell’s Ditch
   5. PUBLIC ENEMY: Fear Of A Black Planet
   6. Nick CAVE & THE BAD SEEDS: The Good Son
   7. PIXIES: Bossanova
   * Lou REED & John CALE: Songs For Drella
   9. The SERENES: Barefoot & Pregnant
  10. John HIATT: Stolen Moments

SPIN:

   1. Ice Cube - AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted
   2. Sonic Youth - Goo
   3. Jane's Addiction - Ritual de lo Habitual
   4. Alice In Chains - Facelift
   5. Deee-Lite - World Clique
   6. Neil Young - Ragged Glory
   7. Teenage Fan Club - A Catholic Education
   8. Public Enemy - Fear Of A Black Planet
   9. Sinéad O'Connor - I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got
  10. L.L. Cool J - Mama Said Knock You Out
  11. Primus - Frizzle Fry
  12. Bob Mould - Black Sheets Of Rain
  13. The Breeders - Pod
  14. Was (Not Was) - Are You OK?
  15. Concrete Blonde - Bloodletting
  16. Prince - Graffiti Bridge
  17. Masters Of Reality - Masters Of Reality
  18. Eric B. & Rakim - Let The Rhythm Hit 'Em
  19. Lou Reed/John Cale - Songs For Drella
  20. Soul II Soul - Vol II: 1990-A New Decade

Village Voice:

   1. Neil Young - Ragged Glory
   2. Sinéad O'Connor - I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got
   3. Public Enemy - Fear Of A Black Planet
   4. Sonic Youth - Goo
   5. Living Colour - Time's Up
   6. Ice Cube - AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted
   7. Paul Simon - The Rhythm Of The Saints
   8. Rosanne Cash - Interiors
   9. LL Cool J - Mama Said Knock You Out
  10. Prince - Graffiti Bridge
  11. The Replacements - All Shook Down
  12. The Chills - Submarine Bells
  13. Deee-Lite - World Clique
  14. Queen Latifah - All Hail The Queen
  15. World Party - Goodbye Jumbo
  16. Various Artists - Red Hot & Blue
  17. Lou Reed/John Cale - Songs For Drella
  18. A Tribe Called Quest - People's Instinctive Travels & The Paths Of Rhythm
  19. Yo La Tengo - Fakebook
  20. Los Lobos - The Neighbourhood

Sounds:

    1. Pixies - Bossanova
    2. Happy Mondays - Pills 'N' Thrills And Bellyaches
    3. Nick Cave And The Bad Seeds - The Good Son
    4. Mazzy Star - She Hangs Brightly
    5. The Fall - Extricate
    6. Public Enemy - Fear Of A Black Planet
    7. Teenage Fanclub - A Catholic Education
    8. Julee Cruise - Floating Into The Night
    9. Cocteau Twins - Heaven Or Las Vegas
    10. That Petrol Emotion - Chemicrazy
    11. Dee-Lite - World Clique
    12. New Fast Automatic Daffodils - Pigeonhole
    13. Neil Young And Crazy Horse - Ragged Glory
    14. Ride - Nowhere
    15. The Heart Throbs - Cleopatra Grip
    16. The Chills - Submarine Bells
    17. Fugazi - Repeater
    18. Sonic Youth - Goo
    19. The La's - The La's
    20. The Fatima Mansions - Viva Dead Ponies

Melody Maker:

# Pills 'n thrills and bellyaches - Happy Mondays
# World clique - Deee-lite
# Songs for drella - Lou Reed & John Cale
# Heaven or Las Vegas - Cocteau twins
# Ragged glory - Neil Young & Crazy horse
# Some friendly - The charlatans
# She hangs brightly - Mazzy star
# Ritual de lo habitual - Janes addiction
# Floating into the night - Julee Cruise
# Behaviour - The pet shop boys
# Bossanove - The pixies
# Fear of a black planet - Public enemy
# The la's - The la's
# I do not want what I hav'nt got - Sinead O'Connor
# The good son - Nick Cave
# Cleopatra grip - The heart throbs
# All shock down - The replacements
# Reading, writing and arithmetic - The Sundays
# Set the controls .. for the bass - Bass-o-matic
# Nowhere - Ride

Select:

# 1.Pixies - Bossanova
# 2.N.Cave & bad seeds - The good son
# 3.Depeche mode - Violator
# 4.Ride - Nowhere
# 5.Jane's addiction - Ritual de lo habitual
# 6.A tribe called quest - People's instinctive travel of path and rhythm
# 7.Galaxie 500 - This is our music
# =.N. Young & Crazy Horse - Ragged glory
# 9.Public Enemy - Fear of a black planet
# 10.Mazzy star - She hangs brightly
# 11.Dee-lite - World clique
# 12.Cocteau twins - Heaven or las vegas
# 13.Jungle brothers - Done by the forces of nature
# 14.Sined O'Connor - I do not want what I haven’t got
# 15.Chills - Submarine bells
# 16.Sonic youth - Goo
# 17.The fall - Extricate
# 18.Happy Mondays - Pills and thrills & bellyaches
# 19.Beloved - Happiness
# 20.Lou Reed & John Cale - Songs for drella 

Interestingly, Daydream Nation didn't make number 1 on most of the music magazines in the UK in '88 - usually coming in between numbers 3 and 7.

EDIT: After some further research, I've discovered:

1990 - 67 unique artists across 8 best-of lists
2005 - 80 unique artists across 7 best-of lists
2006 - 68 unique artists across 7 best-of lists

From a mixture of mainstream and alternative publications - therefore, even the best-of lists of publications are becoming more diverse. Therefore, my own quote "end of year lists (where you could find them) were far more divergent, with very little overlap" doesn't hold true - the lists are as divergent as ever, regardless of source.

[Johnny C]

Public Enemy appeared on all those lists, Happy Mondays appeared on most, and there are probably others besides my cursory examination of that list.

A lot of music journalists just think alike, maybe?

[Jackie Blue]

Here's the end of year lists for eight publications in 1990.

I think you will notice that 75% of the albums on all those lists were mainstream artists.

So, I'm not sure what your point is now, at all.  Other than proving that in 1990 more critics listened to a more mainstream albums, or admitted to it, than they do now?

I'm not sure what kind of publications you're referring to now.  I was looking more for evidence of underground/indie publications top ten lists, not SPIN, NME and the Village Voice.

I think you're comparing apples to fruitbats.

[Kyros]

A year end list is just a list.  A lot of the lists are similar because if an album is truly that awesome, then a lot of people are going to agree and put it on their year end lists.  It has nothing to do with "mainstreamness" or "alternativeness" just the fact that a lot of these people agreed that those were the best albums.

[Jackie Blue]

Yep, pretty much.

Thread over.

[sandman263]

A year end list is just a list.  A lot of the lists are similar because if an album is truly that awesome, then a lot of people are going to agree and put it on their year end lists.  It has nothing to do with "mainstreamness" or "alternativeness" just the fact that a lot of these people agreed that those were the best albums.

My original theory: a larger number of non-mainstream music should lead to a more diverse selection of end of year lists. However, I believed that this wasn't happening, as the end of year lists I've been exposed to are all converging to the same artists.

My analysis: a quick & dirty & in no way scientific review of mainstream, semi-mainstream and alternative publications that I have been exposed to shows year-end lists to be more divergent than previous. Therefore, my original theory was disproved.

Apologies if most people on the thread didn't understand my original point.

[Jackie Blue]

My original theory: a larger number of non-mainstream music should lead to a more diverse selection of end of year lists.

Then you started from a false premis in the first place.  There's roughly the same amount of "non-mainstream" music now as there has been since, I don't know, the 60s.  The ratio hasn't changed.

I think it's also odd that you seem to imply that if there is more of something, then it logically follows that more of it will be good.

[sandman263]

There's roughly the same amount of "non-mainstream" music now as there has been since, I don't know, the 60s.

Interesting - so you're saying that despite the rise of such mass-market platforms as MySpace (366.348 bands currently), the same amount of music exists? Proof please?

[FUBAR]

yeah, alternative seems like just another term created by the "industry" to arbitrarily label any band or singer that would not otherwise fit into any of the other cookie cutter categories.

[Jackie Blue]

No, I'm saying that the same ratio of "alternative" to "mainstream" music exists.

But I fail to see how Myspace creates bands.  Myspace makes it easier to listen to shitty local bands, but before Myspace, those shitty local bands still existed.

[sandman263]

I think it's also odd that you seem to imply that if there is more of something, then it logically follows that more of it will be good.

Statistics - if I take a sample of 100 bands, assume I like 25 enough to buy albums. Now say you take a further 100 bands - which do you think is more likely: that I like none of the additional bands, or that there are at least some I like? Now factor in that the selections of 100 are not random, but are based on bands I know I already like? Do you think this will then increase or decrease the chance of me finding more bands I like with each additional 100?

While the number I like may tend towards zero over time (as I exhaust the base of bands), we're not talking about "here's 100 bands at random, do you like them?" - the increase in the number of bands, combined with the fact that some of these may be influenced by bands I already like, combined with my own changing tastes, combined with my ability to choose from the larger set of bands (rather than it being randomly assigned) means that in this case, an increase in the number of bands does logically lead me to believe that more of it will be good to me.

My own experiences, where continuous exploration online of new music has led me to many artists I now passionately follow, backs up my perception of this.

But I fail to see how Myspace creates bands.  Myspace makes it easier to listen to shitty local bands, but before Myspace, those shitty local bands still existed.

I don't remember saying that "MySpace creates bands". I believe that MySpace has influenced a lot of artists/band to put more into their music (and/or marketing thereof), and helped them to expose their music to a wider audience. Alongside this, I do believe that the opportunities offered by MySpace has inspired some bands to come into existence, or to deepen their own involvement in music to become "proper" bands. If you honestly believe that the ratio of mainstream:non-mainstream music is the same as in the 1960's, I'd like to see the numbers to back this up.

[Jackie Blue]

If you honestly believe that the ratio of mainstream:non-mainstream music is the same as in the 1960's, I'd like to see the numbers to back this up.

Your entire post up until this point was anecdotal evidence.  Even if it were possible for me to dig up such a statistic, I see no obligation to because your entire argument in this thread has been based on your personal anecdotal experience.

All I know - from my anecdotal personal experience - is that I can name roughly the same ratio of obscure 60s bands to mainstream 60s bands.  If you're not aware of how much quality non-mainstream music existed back then, I suggest you look into it.  The vast majority of it is incredibly good.

[Tom]

I think it's also odd that you seem to imply that if there is more of something, then it logically follows that more of it will be good.

Statistics - if I take a sample of 100 bands, assume I like 25 enough to buy albums. Now say you take a further 100 bands - which do you think is more likely: that I like none of the additional bands, or that there are at least some I like? Now factor in that the selections of 100 are not random, but are based on bands I know I already like? Do you think this will then increase or decrease the chance of me finding more bands I like with each additional 100?

While the number I like may tend towards zero over time (as I exhaust the base of bands), we're not talking about "here's 100 bands at random, do you like them?" - the increase in the number of bands, combined with the fact that some of these may be influenced by bands I already like, combined with my own changing tastes, combined with my ability to choose from the larger set of bands (rather than it being randomly assigned) means that in this case, an increase in the number of bands does logically lead me to believe that more of it will be good to me.

My own experiences, where continuous exploration online of new music has led me to many artists I now passionately follow, backs up my perception of this.

Is it just me, or is that an extreme example of over simplification?

[sandman263]

Is it just me, or is that an extreme example of over simplification?

Uhm, no, it's an example of my own experience....where exactly is the over-simplification coming into it?