Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[greenMonkey]

When it comes to metal, my tastes and experiences are fairly limited.  However, the metal I like is what I consider 'heavier' than other metal that I have heard.  I generally dislike metal involving super-fast blast beats and shredding guitar solos, as well as metal that extensively uses cookie-monster vocals.  Instead I like metal that is full of low-frequency growling guitars and what might be considered slower tempos, or perhaps less virtuosity and technical complexity.  I think the best example of this that I have heard is Pelican's album Australasia.  The second track, Drought, sounds to me like a solid brick wall impacting a bus in slow-motion.  I think my taste for slow, low, and heavily distorted metal stems from my enjoyment of post-rock, which seems to be somewhat of an influence on bands like Pelican.

So, I have two questions to pose:

1. What, to you, signifies 'heavy'?

2. What other music should I check out, based on the description of my tastes posted above?

[PacoSees]

I can only really answer the first one, but to me, heavy is more of a range thing than speed.

Something that goes low, doesn't have machine-gun-style drumming, and preferably doesn't have "cookie-monster" vocals.

I love the nice climax with a wicked solo though.  It makes the transition from "I need small animals to die" to "WATCH ME KILL YOU ALL AND STEAL YOUR WOMEN".

[a pack of wolves]

I'm not even going to mess with trying to define heavy, that one's a nightmare. On the recommendations front, I say you try:
Snowblood - http://www.myspace.com/beingandbecoming
Men In Search Of The Perfect Weapon - http://www.myspace.com/misotpw
Humanfly - http://www.myspace.com/humanfly
The first two blend post-rock with that heavy, Neurosis-influenced sort of thing whereas Humanfly are more prog in approach, although not a million miles from Pelican at all so you'll probably like them. I can't think of anyone else really worth bothering with off the top of my head but that's because this style just seems really played out to me at the moment, there's been a terrible glut of bands doing it and it's all getting a bit tiresome really. Snowblood I'll never tire of but they're in a league of their own.

I second the Kyuss recommendation. I never really play them much anymore but they do fit the bill of what you want and Tommy's right, those two albums are fantastic, particularly the big sun-drenched juggernaut that is Welcome To Sky Valley.

[greenMonkey]

I guess I should clarify that I'm open to recommendations of anything, that one Pelican song just seemed to fit my description really well.  Also, I'm still very interested in hearing what people consider to be 'heavy'.

[Kai]

can't we just listen to DOPESMOKER instead?

[a pack of wolves]

Dopesmoker isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's good, yeah, but it's a bit overrated.

To attempt to describe heavy, and to give you more bands that you really need to hear before you die, listen to:
Iron Monkey - http://www.myspace.com/survivaloftheshittest
Stalingrad - http://www.myspace.com/therealstalingrad 
Corrupted - http://www.dxmxtx.com/corrupted/
Noothgrush - http://www.myspace.com/noothgrush
Discharge's early stuff - http://youtube.com/watch?v=6aYMCnwq9Gg
I think that lot reasonably sums up what comes to my mind when somebody says the word heavy. I'm not sure how to articulate it at all, you could start talking about volume and bass but I think that would somewhat miss the point and wouldn't explain why, to my ears, Shellac are a very heavy band.

[De_El]

Yeah, generally I think the quality of "heavy" as being really low frequency and gut-rattling, like Sunn O)) is heavy as fuck. Of course, you have to be playing it loud enough and with the bass high enough for anything to sound heavy.

Also Dopesmoker is tops. Sleep, in general, is tops.

Doom and drone metal pretty much strive to be the heaviest, and often are, but there are some tech/math metal bands that are in the running.

[Spluff]

Electric. Wizard.

The fact that this hadn't been posted yet was so mind numbingly shocking that I was forced out of the dark depths of lurkerdom. I'm disappointed in you all.

[a pack of wolves]

I always preferred Warhorse myself, seem to remember seeing them together and being more impressed by them. Electric Wizard are pretty good though.

Yeah, generally I think the quality of "heavy" as being really low frequency and gut-rattling, like Sunn O)) is heavy as fuck. Of course, you have to be playing it loud enough and with the bass high enough for anything to sound heavy.

I never think that's all of it though, intensity and what's actually being played always play a part for me when I think of something as heavy or not. Like Swans (damn, how have we managed to avoid mentioning them yet?), I had some on just now quietly and through shitty laptop speakers with sod all bass. It was still damn heavy though. Same goes for Unsane, when I saw them earlier this year they were absolutely crushing and one of the heaviest things I've ever seen but I don't think it was actually all that loud.

[De_El]

That's true. I didn't mean to over-simplify. Swans are positively punishing and I don't know if you'd even call them metal.  Godflesh was really heavy in a similar way too, at least for the first album. Gotta keep in mind though, intensity is a lot harder to convey over speakers than it is in concert. A band that can pull it off is truly great and (potentially) heavy.

[a pack of wolves]

Swans are just Swans, I'd never try and put them into a very specific genre like metal. It would just get silly.

Things are always very different live. I was surprised by how heavy Portishead could be when I saw them, it made them playing with loads of bands like Om make much more sense than if I just had the records to go on. I don't know if intensity is always harder to convey over speakers though, I've seen some bands who you might think would be quite intense actually being something else entirely live, Nile and Dying Fetus probably being the examples that spring most readily to mind. Not that either was bad, far from it, but they weren't particularly intense, they created a more pleasing, rather genial live experience and thus weren't really what I'd call very heavy.

[Dimmukane]

Sounds like a stoner/doom/drone fan.  You might get a kick out of Mocassin, Dead Meadow, Baroness...I guess you should be asking onewheelwizzzard.  As for the first question, I define heavy as something with distorted guitars and having a solid bass sound.

[Caspian]

For me, Sunn would definitely be the total definition of 'heavy'. It's heavy metal with all the metal removed. It's the purified essence of 'heavy'. Also: Nadja's Flower of Flesh song. Now that is definitely the heaviest thing ever released.

[Thrillho]

If you're looking for a metal-type heavy, I've always thought Sunn aren't the right choice, due to the usual absence of even a drum machine, let alone live drums. I've always felt that a drumkit was essential to that type of heaviness.

However, I also think that heaviness can emcompass emotional weight as much as riffs per square inch. I think heaviness is about how it affects you, how hard the music hits you, whether physically because your stereo is turned up to max and you just soiled yourself, or emotionally. As such, I think 'Hurt' by Johnny Cash is one of the heaviest songs ever recorded because of how much emotional weight it has coming from him, its production, etc.

For a combination of those two, I usually cherry-pick. A lot of bands, they sound angry - but they really have no reason to be. Take Linkin Park. Actually, they're a bad example, because Chester Bennington got taken for all he was worth and SHOULD sound angry. But their albums show the kind of synthetic emotion I'm not referring to. It's the combination of emotion (or conviction/passion) and riffs/drums which encompasses heavy to me. Which is why I find most of what is now defined as emo to be as heavy as a poodle's paw.

[onewheelwizzard]

I guess you should be asking onewheelwizzzard.

I'm honored.

I think I'll start with a list of the bands that I think are probably the biggest influence on the kind of music you're probably thinking about.  The basic pioneer was Black Sabbath, of course, and I would say that the influence of the Melvins probably extend too far to be placed into a genre.  Doom owes a lot to Electric Wizard, Sleep, Cathedral, and The Obsessed (or any other band with Scott Weinrich in it).  Stoner rock was founded on Kyuss, Fu Manchu, Monster Magnet, and Orange Goblin.  Drone was basically invented by Earth and SUNN0))).  Post-metal (for lack of a better genre name) can be traced back to Neurosis and Isis.  Sludge started with EyeHateGod and Crowbar.  The more psychedelic side of the spectrum owes a lot to Colour Haze, Dead Meadow, and Bardo Pond.  So if you give a good listen to these bands you'll probably start to get a feel for what brand of "heavy" appeals to you the most.

Personally, I find "heaviness" to be pretty hard to define.  It's probably best thought of as an attitude.  I've heard acoustic songs that I would describe as "heavy" (Dead Meadow's "At the Edge of the Wood" is just a voice and an acoustic guitar and it still feels "heavy" to me).  I'd personally say that it's most easily associated with slower and longer songs and abnormally high levels of bass, fuzz, and distortion, but these elements don't make music heavy in and of themselves.  Heaviness is probably best represented by the riff from the closing breakdown of "Supa Scoopa and Mighty Scoop" by Kyuss, or the main riffs of "Into The Void" by Black Sabbath and "Splendid, Selfish Woman" by Eternal Elysium.

Last time the topic came up I posted a list of music that I thought was relevant, and I got a reasonably positive response, so I dug it up and here it is:

#=doom, %=psychedelic, $=post-rock, @=drone, &=good old stoner riff rock

Electric Wizard (#####)
Orange Goblin (#%&&&)
Melvins (####&)
OM (##@&&)
Colour Haze (#%%%&)
High On Fire (###&&)
Earth (##@@@)
Bongripper (###$@)
Monster Magnet (%%&&&)
Cathedral (###&&)
Boris (#%$@&)
Fu Manchu (&&&&&)
Witch (##%&&)
Nebula (%%&&&)
Mammatus (%%%$&)
ISIS (##$$$)
Pelican (##$$$)
Nadja (#$@@@)
Jesu (#$@@@)
Karma to Burn (##&&&)
Bardo Pond (%%$$@)
Witchcraft (###&&)
Dead Meadow (%%%%&)
Yawning Man (%%%$&)
Pharaoh Overlord (%%%@@)
The Atomic Bitchwax (%&&&&)
Beaver (%&&&&)
Acid King (##%%&)
35007 (%%$$@)
Monkey3 (%%$$@)
Comets on Fire (%%&&&)
Grand Magus (###&&)
Eternal Elysium (##%%&)
The Sword (###&&)
UfoMammut (###@@)
Hermano (&&&&&)
Bongzilla (####&)
Dozer (##&&&)

To this list I will add:
Titan (%%%$$)
Zoroaster (#####)
Moccasin (%%%%&)
Malasangre (####@)
Acid Mothers Temple (%%$$@) (don't know why that wasn't on the original list)
Blind Dog (##&&&)
Lowrider (&&&&&)
Ahkmed (%%%$$)
Torche (#$$&&)
Earthless (%%%$&)
The Mystick Krewe of Clearlight (#%%&&)
Bigelf (%%&&&)
YOB (####&)
Thumlock (%%$$&)
Khanate (##@@@)
Buried at Sea (###@@)
Hypnos 69 (%%%&&)
Dirge (####@)
Flower Travellin' Band (%%%&&)
Gonga (%&&&&)
Sons of Otis (%%&&&)
Thorr's Hammer (###@@)
Subarachnoid Space (%%$$&)

[Spluff]

As you didn't go into Sludge too much apart from mentioning Crowbar and EyeHateGod, I'll throw in a quick list from my listening experience - but damn, that list is impressive. I shall take it upon myself to listen to all the bands on there that I haven't heard yet.

Sludge:

Crowbar
EyeHateGod
Down
Corrosion of Conformity (later stuff)
Acid Bath
Buzzov*en
Fistula
Weedeater
Iron Monkey

[onewheelwizzard]

Yeah, my sludge experience is actually pretty tiny given the genre's relationship to my tastes in general.  I think I got turned off early and never really explored the genre, I think it was the hardcore influences that did it.  I've got a couple EyeHateGod albums (that I haven't even listened to all the way through) but that's about it.  I personally tend towards the psychedelic end of the spectrum (Dead Meadow are probably my all-time favorite).  I'm not really one for the anger and general nastiness in sludge.

[valley_parade]

can't we just listen to Earth instead?

[Jackie Blue]

I gave up on this one a long time ago, yeah.  After too many talks with metal fans who say they love "heavy" music but wouldn't consider Dead Meadow, Bardo Pond, Acid Mothers Temple, etc. to be "heavy".  It really hit the fuckall level when I talked to some local college DJs who do "the heavy metal show" on the station and had NEVER EVEN HEARD OF BORIS' PINK DESPITE IT HAVING JUST MADE LIKE EVERY METAL MAGAZINE'S TOP TEN.

[valley_parade]

I still think people should listen to Heavy Rock before Pink.

Then again, I may be biased because "Korosu" and "1970" are my two favorite Boris tracks.

[costacide]

Less super-compressed guitar, more brain-shaking basslines.

[onewheelwizzard]

You want to hear some heavy shit?  Listen to Jack Rose's "Cross the North Folk."  Yeah, it's just acoustic guitar.  But it's a lumbering, mournful, dirgelike drone with a haunting melody laid over top.  It's 7:26 long and it just exudes this vibe of density and sorrow and loss, and it does a better job of being "heavy" than most distorted, fuzzed-out Kyuss impersonators.  Here, check it out.  http://www.mediafire.com/?cndtjzf3ytu

Proof positive that you don't need distortion pedals, drums, bass, or even an amp or a voice to play heavy music.

[valley_parade]

Doesn't hurt, though.

[Jackie Blue]

I have never once heard a serious explanation for the appeal of "cookie monster vocals", nor for the widespread usage and uniformity.  For a genre whose fans get really pissed if you imply that "it all sounds the same", they sure are turning a giant blind eye to the fact that a lot of the bands do, IN FACT, have singers that sound EXACTLY THE SAME.

[a pack of wolves]

It's just a different sound you can make with your voice, like putting distortion on a guitar to alter the sound it makes. I suppose they have a tendency toward uniformity for the same reasons a lot of bands and other instruments end up sounding the same.

[Thrillho]

That's the thing. My mum asks me this sometimes, what's the appeal of the screaming, screeching, roaring, shouting in so much of my music? And I just don't know. I guess it's just the rawness and emotion that can sometimes be construed.

And to onewheelwizzard - THANK YOU for agreeing with me indirectly.

[Jackie Blue]

I suppose they have a tendency toward uniformity for the same reasons a lot of bands and other instruments end up sounding the same.

I can't think of any other genre which has any sound element which is SO uniform across SO many bands, though.

And I've still never heard an explanation for it.  I don't even know what emotion or mood it's supposed to convey, other than "I'm as stupid and angry as a Doberman", which is... a little limited.  I've also never heard anyone explain why so many singers choose to sing in a way that renders their lyrics entirely unintelligable (and therefore, arguably, irrelevant).

[onewheelwizzard]

I suppose they have a tendency toward uniformity for the same reasons a lot of bands and other instruments end up sounding the same.

I can't think of any other genre which has any sound element which is SO uniform across SO many bands, though.

Well, it's not like you've got a whole lot of room to experiment when you're singing like that.  Your voice doesn't have much in the way of flexibility.  What would variation in that vocal style sound like, anyway?

[a pack of wolves]

It doesn't make them necessarily irrelevant, Stand for example used to give out lyric sheets at their gigs since it was next to impossible to work out what was being screamed. Los Crudos did the same thing, and anyway I often find it hard to pick out exactly what's being sung by somebody unless I have the lyric sheet to look regardless of style. However, I have known quite a few people who scream or do other unintelligible vocals in bands who don't bother with lyrics (Executive Distraction Tasks for example), they regard their voice as just another instrument. In the end vocal sounds don't have any kind of direct link to the concepts and objects they signify anyway.

Some bands use guttural vocals to convey a sense of something other worldly, some use it to express anger, others despair, others are just interested in the way it interplays with the music to create sounds.

As for why they're very similar onewheelwizard hit it on the head. You can often tell the difference between vocalists though, some are better than others.

[Jackie Blue]

Well, it's not like you've got a whole lot of room to experiment when you're singing like that.  Your voice doesn't have much in the way of flexibility.  What would variation in that vocal style sound like, anyway?

Exactly my point.  To me it's like a guitar player saying "I will only play E minor from now on".

[amok]

I don't even know what emotion or mood it's supposed to convey

"grr argh"

really, try not to overthink it. the point of the growling is more to sound as inhuman and "evil" (often cheesily so) than to convey any readily-identifiable emotion, or to properly enunciate the words. it's part of the aesthetic and a lot of the time it does sound retarded, but sometimes it just fits with the song and trying to picture the same track with clean vocals doesn't work.

it's not that far different than the fucker from neutral milk hotel's tuneless yelping, really. just marginally less intelligible. either way, it's more that the sound of the voice fits with the music than anything else.

[onewheelwizzard]

I guess it seems more to me like a guitar player saying "I will only ever play with this precise amp/pedal setup from now on."  The musical contribution the singer brings to the group (lyrics) are still as flexible as ever, but the vocalist has locked into a sound that the band likes.

[Jackie Blue]

Don't bring Jeff Mangum into this.  THERE WILL BE BLOOD.

"Tunless yelping" my ass.   

[amok]

aight, fine. tuneless squealing

[Spluff]

I personally - and I know many other 'metalheads' do it too - rarely actually listen to the lyrics of a song (and that goes for all genres). As a musician, I either just listen to the melody of the vocals or tune them out completely. And a good death metal singer will definitely have melody in there (granted, you have to get used the style first - it's rather like a massively downtuned guitar through heavy distortion, it takes a bit of practice to hear but its there).It's an acquired taste, sure, but once you get it you realise how much better it is than the metal alternative (Nightwish anyone? blegh).

[Ernest]

Is Om heavy?  I think they're suitably heavy.  I love Om.  Do you?

[Tom]

Bardo Pond?

[jimbunny]

My friends, what is heavy, but really heavy thing?

Note that I have not actually listened to the album.

[Johnny C]

Later period Scott Walker.

[a pack of wolves]

Oh yeah, The Drift is heavy. Although it was rendered considerably less so for me when my Mum started doing what she referred to as her 'goth dance' to it.

[Dimmukane]

When I listen to metal (and I'm talking the "cookie-monster" stuff), I tend to make myself hear it as an instrumental.  Sometimes the vocalist will be singing some relatively deep lyrics, but I won't go back and find out what they are unless I enjoyed the song as an instrumental first.  I also tried to listen to bands with a distinct vocal style (there are types of cookie-monster growls that definitely sound different from others).  Or metal acts with 'clean' vocals.  Sometimes the singer is doing something that really gels with the music.  Cynic would be a key example of something with a good vocal style that is unique, while still sticking to the 'death-growl' trend.

[onewheelwizzard]

Om and Bardo Pond both understand what it means to be heavy better than most.

Is it weird that I've never associated cookie-monster growling with heaviness?  "Heavy" is not the first thing that comes to my mind when I listen to that style of metal vocals, and the vocal style is definitely not the first thing I think about when I think about heaviness.

Also, everyone needs to listen to these two songs, from the Desert Sessions (Josh Homme and friends collective side project):
The Gosso King Of Crater Lake
Hogleg

By far my favorite use of growly vocals.

[Jackie Blue]

Bardo Pond?

Is that a question?

Bardo Pond's "Tommy Gun Angel" is THE definition of "heavy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mGuCw3Z510 (not the best sound quality, you really have to be there)

[Ozzman]

My friends, what is heavy, but really heavy thing?

Note that I have not actually listened to the album.

Oh man, that's a good album.


And to the whole flexibility deal...
(and sometimes "heavy" in your opinions)
Graveworm.
As far as I know, it's one vocalist...and he seems to be extremely flexible.

[Tom]

Bardo Pond?

Is that a question?

Bardo Pond's "Tommy Gun Angel" is THE definition of "heavy"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mGuCw3Z510 (not the best sound quality, you really have to be there)

It was meant to read "Bardo Pond, why has no one mentioned these guys?" but net fucked up when I tried to edit it.

[Dimmukane]

I was responding to tommy's qualms over growling.  I think "heavy" is just music with a solid bass sound.  Normally fuzzed guitars are involved, but not always. 

[Statik]

Heavy is kind of an arbitrary title.  I dont particularly define it in any way, as I only use the term "Heavy Metal" explaining to people who dont listen to metal to say what I listen to.

That being said, I still consider certain bands "heavier" than others.  Namely those with clear, but low riffs, who make the bass move, who blow out your speakers, who shred your ear drums (yet still have a very much musical ability)

Listen to Gojira (all three albums, but "From Mars to Sirius" specifically), Cryptopsy (any album, "None So Vile" and "Whisper Supremacy" track 6 for good examples) , Fear Factory (Album Soul of a New Machine, Demanufacture and Obsolete, especially "Edgecrusher" on Obsolete), see also the album "Chaosphere" by Meshuggah and anything by Vader.

Lots of stuff would qualify as "heavy" its all in what you are looking for.  (A side note, I dont care what anyone else says, Flo of Cryptopsy and Tomas Haake are probably the best drummers walking the planet at the present, if you are looking for "heavy" drummers)

If you are looking for straight up deep subwoofer crushing noise, well, you could go with Mortician, or really, any other band out of the NY death metal scene

[onewheelwizzard]

How about we each just share the songs that we believe convey the word "heavy" best?  I feel like this would be a better way to go about discussing "the definition of heavy" than any other.

I'll start:

Kyuss - Into the Void (The only Sabbath cover that I've ever heard "out-heavy" Sabbath)
Electric Wizard - Return Trip
Om - On The Mountain At Dawn
Eternal Elysium - Splendid, Selfish Woman (They're just a Sabbath clone at heart but goddamn is that a fucking heavy riff)
Bongripper - Hippie Killer Pt. 2

[amok]

Monster Magnet's 'Into The Void' is awesome too. Although it more out-rocks Sabbath than out-heavies them.

[valley_parade]

Boris - "1970" (the album's called "Heavy Rocks" for fucks sake)
http://www.mediafire.com/?c0y2z9lszng