Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Streltsy]

Hey, mostly a lurker but this the last few pages of 'mainstream bands' thread got me thinking.
Thread topic -> Why is it wrong to judge people and/or their taste based on the music they listen too?

I am hoping this thread will have a bit more philosophical weight than replies like "cause that'd make you a dick".

The question is a bit misleading; judgement is how we 'put' the world around us in order to make prediction and most of us have the faculty to bestow different amounts of faith in our judgements. When you judge someone for the music they listen to, but don't put to much weight into that judgement, does that still make you an asshole?
Is judging looked down upon in music because people put too much weight into those judgements, because their judgements are uninformed, because they connect music preference with other qualities? These are a lot of questions, I only began 'appreciating' music about a year ago so I thought I would let you answer them as you probably already thought about this more. Maybe there really isn't that much to this question :/, I guess ViolentDove stated my position in that thread pretty well too.

Also didn't introduce myself cause there isn't too much to say. 1st year in UofT, I like rock music ~!

[ViolentDove]

Um, yeah. I was making a general statement about labeling or categorising things.

I was just saying that categorising things, including people and subcultures, is a grand feature of language which allows us to refer to things like ducks, without having to say "the genus of bird-shaped animals with webbed feet, a turned up beak, remarkable hydrophobic feathers, and that make a quacking noise".

Or you know, being able to refer to Goths instead of having to say "those people who wear black alot, sometimes some eye makeup, and enjoy listening to bands like the Cure or Siouxsxszie and the Banshees."

Judgment implies a moral aspect along the lines of good or bad. Eg. anyone who listens to Rush, is, by definition, a rapist. Or anyone who likes Rush has a poor taste in music.

Judging someone on the basis of what music they like is pointless, because it draws a (false) correlation between liking a certain type of music, and a something else, like personality type. While this correlation might  exist in some cases, most of the time, it probably doesn't.

[Jackie Blue]

tl;dr version:

"There's no accounting for taste."

[psyne]

Eg. anyone who listens to Rush, is, by definition, a rapist.

Oh shit I should look out. One of my teachers is the biggest Rush fan I've ever met. (Seriously, half the class examples are about Alex Lifeson...)


Anyway, yeah, there's no real conclusions you can draw about personality based on music taste (or about music taste based on fashion). You can make assumptions, and sometimes they'll be right, but you could be missing out getting to know someone great just because you have different taste in one area. A lot of my friends listen to music I wouldn't touch with a stick. I also have met people with really similar music tastes to me that I don't get along with, or just don't have much else in common with. Stereotypes are useless and prevent diversity. I have friends who listen to rap, Disney channel music, nothing but Simon and Garfunkel, techno, JPop, super-prog spacey stuff that would put me to sleep, etc. I might like some things from those categories but they aren't even close to my main interests. They're still all great friends and I wouldn't change them for the world.


Although on a side note, I don't think I could be friends with someone who doesn't listen to music at all. I'd either be too appalled to keep talking to them, or I'd unintentionally piss them off by throwing every song I have at them in hopes that something will get them into music.

[casull]

I judge people very harshly by what they like in terms of music, but it's not because I really care whether they listen to good stuff- they probably enjoy their shit as much as I enjoy my 'good' music. I do it because listening to music outside the mainstream has a very high correlation for them being an all-around educated person who spends a lot of time keeping tabs on current events and pop culture online, which IS something I really favor. It's not that I dislike people for listening to bad music, it just turns out that poor taste predicts that I will almost inevitably find that person uninteresting, if not irritating.

Edit: I should add that whether my taste and theirs overlap much is of little importance, in my experience. The point is that we spend large chunks of time online finding and discussing music. I have the dubious pleasure of talking music IRL with flaming ostrich pretty often, and it's usually a blast, despite our tastes differing wildly.

[psyne]

Casull, there might be some correlation there, but again it's not like that's a definite thing in any way. One of my best friends is very smart, political, well educated, and very into the internet and pop culture. She loves bubblegum pop and just about everything Disney. Actually, one of the things I've always liked about her is that she has no shame about her music taste - a lot of the stuff she listens to is on the embarrassing side, even to people who listen to current mainstream - she's more into N'sync and Hannah Montana, and she's in college. Her attitude is basically, "Yeah I know it's ridiculous and technically crappy, but I love it and it's fun so whatever!"

[Jackie Blue]

listening to music outside the mainstream has a very high correlation for them being an all-around educated person

Whoah, buddy, I could not disagree with this statement more.

I mean, have you ever tried to talk to young "oldschool punk" kids?

[casull]

People who focus singlemindedly on a single obscure genre as a fashion statement don't count, because they're stupid. Like junior senior says, there's too much good stuff out there to ignore it.

@psyne: I have definitely met people who are very... culturally aware, yet manage to have shit taste. Not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying that good taste is an indicator of a kind of cultural awareness that I like, not the other way around. I know plenty of generally culturally-informed people who like lame music.

[Patrick]

I judge people if they listen to Mary McCaslin. This may or may not be entirely due to the fact that my stepmother listens to her and is also a shit person.

It's not rooted in anything rational or concrete, I admit, but that's the way it is. Bad experiences can play a major factor in how we humans do things in life. If we hadn't evolved the ability to learn from past situations, we'd probably be dead by now.

[JackyL]

Usually when I become good friends with someone I start listening to the music they like. I find that my friendship with someone is often a good indicator that I will appreciate their musical tastes, and if I don't? So what! Compatible relationships are rarely purely based on musical tastes and I think other things are far more important.

[Mobius_Logic]

I actually enjoy making friends with people who don't share my music taste at all, I see it as an opportunity to widen my horizon. ie: Last year I made friends with this kid who listens to hip hop almost exclusively, and without him I would of never heard of Binary Star, One Be Lo, and numerous amazing local hip hop acts, and for that I love him for all eternity.

[bff]

i am with casull on this one, i too think you can tell alot about someone based on their music collection, although the effect is lessened in the brave new world of the internets.  if someone's music taste begins and ends at the Top 40 list that tells me that they accept whatever crap the mainstream wants to feed them.  I also think that people who delve into some sub-genre while ignoring all other musical styles is probably insecure and is overly attached to having found somewhere they fit in.

[jimbunny]

I've known a few music majors who, in addition to being versed in the classical greats, would mostly listen to stuff you'd hear on commercial radio.

Food for thought.

[Hat]

Once I find out someone is not a fan of Soulwax, I take them out the back of my garden shed and shoot them execution style.

[Oscaio]

I actually enjoy making friends with people who don't share my music taste at all, I see it as an opportunity to widen my horizon. ie: Last year I made friends with this kid who listens to hip hop almost exclusively, and without him I would of never heard of Binary Star, One Be Lo, and numerous amazing local hip hop acts, and for that I love him for all eternity.

   I am, sort of, the same... kind of in reverse, though  I looooove to show new music to my friends, and "teach" them something outside of what they are used to listen to (of course, this process goes both ways sometimes). So, assuming this, if I meet somebody and this person is not INTERESTED in opening their musical horizons, then I feel total disrespect for them and I judge them pretty harshly (for their lack of curiosity).

 I guess the worst is when somebody claims to be an "expert" after listening one band, or one album... without knowing influences, etc.

[casull]

   I am, sort of, the same... kind of in reverse, though  I looooove to show new music to my friends, and "teach" them something outside of what they are used to listen to (of course, this process goes both ways sometimes). So, assuming this, if I meet somebody and this person is not INTERESTED in opening their musical horizons, then I feel total disrespect for them and I judge them pretty harshly (for their lack of curiosity).

 I guess the worst is when somebody claims to be an "expert" after listening one band, or one album... without knowing influences, etc.

Motherfuckin' bingo. I can deal with someone who doesn't really know where to find music outside the mainstream, but has an open mind. If they simply lack curiosity, fuck 'em.

Also, trading/recommending music is a great way to get acquainted with a girl in a totally honest, fun way.

[ledhendrix]

I used to be awful at listening to new music. It was Rock or nothing for ages, i don't think i listened to a band post 1990 at the time. I used to be a right prick about other peoples music tastes as well. I am glad to say that now i have a massively broader taste in music and will pretty much listen to anything if  it is in the right place at the right time.

[Ernest]

I have the dubious pleasure of talking music IRL with flaming ostrich pretty often, and it's usually a blast, despite our tastes differing wildly.

John, there is no need to refer to me by some stupid screen name I thought was cool when I was 14.  You are John and I am Ernie.  We live a few thousand feet from each other.  This is okay.  We can do this.

And I think a lot of guys are wrong in wanting to judge people based on musical taste.  Instead of thinking of musical taste as an indicator of personality, perhaps you should think of the person as an indicator of musical taste.  Or rather, consider everything you can about the person before judging him based on his musical taste.  Tim is probably my best friend here and he thinks Good Charlotte's new album is good.  He also appreciates NMH's In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, so he almost immediately defies categorization.  He likes GC's album because it is dancy, and even though I think it is just the next incarnation of a band run by interfering producers, I understand what he means. 

There are lots of people like that, who may have some mainstream tastes, but not necessarily "bad" taste.  And as we all should know, much of what we consider good is good under the pretense that the band defies the corporate merchandising system.  That is our pretense.  Think about the last time you heard a band's music without knowing anything about them.  It takes just a bit longer to make a judgment about the band if you don't know whether they're signed to a major label or not.  I'm not saying that all of us judge everything based on whether it's mainstream or not, and I know what appeals to my aesthetic and taste, and I can certainly make the judgment I described above, but it's easy to write off everything popular as "bad" because it's popular, and therefore to write of people as "conformist" and not worth your time based on something as insignificant as musical taste.

Think about how much stock we put in music.  We really fucking care about it.  Much more than most people.  And still, we are not the only people worth knowing.  If you can't carry on a conversation about anything other than music, you need to go outside and meet some people.  Most people have other interests, so why not see what you can infer from them by those.  See how much you know about something completely unrelated to the arts and see if you can find anyone worth knowing who likes that.  I for one am extremely glad that I have such an interest in baseball, as it has gotten me some exceptionally interesting friends.  Baseball even got me a girlfriend last term, though she's a bitch who won't talk to me now, so whatever.

Then there's the case of my roommate, who could pretty easily be judged by his musical taste.  He listens to all that faux indie shit like Bloc Party and Franz Ferdinand that would indicate that he is a wimpy follower, which is totally true.  He's a nice guy, but he can be judged by his taste (also he is an annoying Mac elitist).  Willi, who did not know my roommate, had an assignment for a class where he had to look at someone he didn't know's section of the room and write a character based on it.  He looked at my roommate's and crafted a character who basically was my roommate.  But he wasn't just judging by musical taste, he was looking at where the guy lives.  Anyway, I'm gonna stop bitching about my roommate, who is really a nice guy, just a bit of a loser.

Anyway, in conclusion, everyone should suck me off while I'm on the toilet, shitting up a storm.  Go Siwash!   

[a pack of wolves]

if someone's music taste begins and ends at the Top 40 list that tells me that they accept whatever crap the mainstream wants to feed them.

No it doesn't, that really is a ridiculous generalisation to make. It tells you they like what's in the top 40, or quite possibly that they just don't have much interest in music at all. I know somebody whose musical taste is extremely limited, a handful of very popular music with a few CDs of folk music from a few different countries. She just doesn't know or care very much about music at all. She's also a sociology researcher who knows a vast amount about politics, philosophy and science. Hardly someone who just accepts what she's told.

A person's musical taste tells you what sounds they enjoy hearing. The way they approach music appreciation will possibly tell you something about how they approach art in general, but maybe not. That is all.

[Spinless]

Wow, Ernie, you are really cool!
I don't judge people based on what they listen to at all. I judge them based on how they judge me for what I listen to. It seems fair that way!

[Scandanavian War Machine]

I don't judge people based on what they listen to at all. I judge them based on how they judge me for what I listen to. It seems fair that way!

that's basically what i do. when i meet new people i put on the strangest thing i can think of at the time and their reaction pretty much determines if they are legit or not. for instance, if they say "i don't like this music at all" i tell them that they are free to put on something different at any time. if they say "you're a fag" then they are probably a douchebag.

[a pack of wolves]

Or maybe they just like pop music. I lived with a guy that really liked bands like Good Charlotte but he was under no illusions about what they were, he just liked mainstream pop.

Also, I thought In Da Club was a good song and I definitely know who Douglas Adams is. My flatmate regularly listens to and writes about chart music and he's studying for an MA in American literature and culture. Those judgements made on music taste and dress sense are so often wildly inaccurate that although it's understandable that people end up instinctively using them I really can't see a good reason to defend them. They're just one of those daft things people do.

[Hat]

Lots of text 

*high-five*

[karas7]

Here's my take on this issue (even though no one will care).
I don't care what sort of music you listen to, as long as you can explain why you like it.
I listen to stuff which most normal (i.e., sane) people think is just noise and yelling. If I ever stuck Hemophiliac on while any of my friends were in the room, they would all run very far away and never come back. However, I could give any of my inquiring friends reasons why I like Hemophiliac.
I always try to introduce some of my music to my friends. I usually start with the more "normal" stuff (e.g., Broken Social Scene, Arcade Fire, Belle and Sebastian) and then introduce them to "weirder" stuff.

[Hat]

Once I find out someone is not a fan of Soulwax, I take them out the back of my garden shed and shoot them execution style.

For some reason I am imagining this going down exactly how it is occurring in your avatar.

I like how in your imagination, panda execution style is face-on, with a goddamned Rainbow

[Patrick]

I usually start with the more "normal" stuff (e.g., Broken Social Scene [snip]) and then introduce them to "weirder" stuff.

I hope you didn't actually tell them the lyrics to "It's All Gonna Break" because then I could really see how they'd be easily weirded out by it.

Now I want to listen to that song.

[Jackie Blue]

The lyrics to "It's All Gonna Break" are weird?

 

[Patrick]

When I was a kid, you fucked me in the ass
But I took my pen to the paper and I passed
'Cause you know I love the shit, 'cause the shit tastes so good

Yeah, pretty much.

[Jackie Blue]

To me, those are pretty straightforward lyrics.

Then again, I grew up listening to Throbbing Gristle and Ministry and stuff, so I got numbed at an early age.

I like how the liner notes to that song say something like "make sure it doesn't sound like "why are you always fucking goats?"

[Spluff]

I don't really care what people listen to. Sure, if they share similar tastes to me I like a good discussion about music, but I don't ask what music people listen to until a long time after I've met them. I just like to have fun and screw around - and the genre of music they listen to doesn't affect that.

[Ernest]

I don't judge people based on what they listen to at all. I judge them based on how they judge me for what I listen to. It seems fair that way!

is that what I sound like or are you being serious?

[Spinless]

No, that's what I sound like. Because that was me, saying something about how I judge other peoples personalities, preceded by a compliment tossed in your direction.

[Patrick]

That or he's deliberately driving you in circles in an attempt to destroy your brain.

[jeph]

99% of my real-life friends listen to practically NONE of the bands I enjoy listening to.

My fiance loves country music and classical, two genres I could not possibly be less interested in myself. And she loathes most of the stuff I listen to (the exceptions being Daft Punk, Burial (!), and perhaps most bizarrely, extreme death metal).

I guess what I am saying is that A) musical taste doesn't matter and B) my non-judgmental penis is bigger than your non-judgmental penis.

[jeph]

Actually on further consideration, almost all of my friends listen to at least a few bands that I also enjoy. We just never, ever talk about music.

[Ernest]

No, that's what I sound like. Because that was me, saying something about how I judge other peoples personalities, preceded by a compliment tossed in your direction.

Oh, well thank you.

I'm sorry, I thought you might be being sarcastic, since I went back and read my original post a day later and realized it was basically stream-of-consciousness dreck.

But thank you.  I like you too

[KharBevNor]

Heavy metal or no metal at all
whimps and posers I said...
Leave the hall!

Now the world must listen to our decree
We don't turn down for anyone we do just what we please
Got to make it louder, all men play on ten
If you're not into metal, you are not my friend!


Also, all those wonderful people who get misjudged by cruel and insensitive folk because they listen to godsawful pop music should have fucking thought about that when they picked up that Britney Spears CD, the dirty scumfucks.

[Nodaisho]

And that, folks, was our resident asshole.

That song is manowar right? Never heard it, but I thought I remembered people referring to it.

[a pack of wolves]

It is Manowar, the song's called Metal Warriors. He really wasn't being an arsehole, can't you tell he's being just a tad tongue in cheek?

[Nodaisho]

Sorry, no, I have read too many posts by metal elitists that actually think that way.

[KharBevNor]

This one time I was at a party, and this guy put on a Killers CD, and I threw him through another guy.

[Nodaisho]

You shouldn't have done that. Now everyone will know that metal gives you super-strength.

[a pack of wolves]

I'm just shocked he didn't set fire to him first. That shows some impressive restraint.

[Nodaisho]

And he didn't even stab the guy with the broken CD.

[KharBevNor]

I didn't break the CD. I annihilated it utterly with a single word of pure power, dispatching its component atoms to the hearts of stars across our galaxy, momentarily causing an invisible ripple in the structure of the cosmos, spelling out dread names in ancient tongues unpronouncable by man.

Then I had some beer and nibbles.

[Patrick]

I bet you got more ass than a donkey farm after that.

[Cire27]

What a way to start a new page.

[Rizzo]

I judge people mercilessly and then I mock them when they're found wanting. Basically what I'm saying is that I'm a judgemental asshole and everyone can fuck off if they don't like it.

[Tom]

At least your honest.

[Patrick]

I joined a band recently, thinking that I'd be able to get some experience in, maybe actually go out and have fun. Instead, I was in a band for about 40 hours and quit because the CD they gave me was nothing but a bunch of SOAD and new Green Day songs that they wanted to put a funk spin on.

I called them and told them I had to quit because I was moving out of country.