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jhocking:

--- Quote from: A Wet Helmet on 10 Mar 2008, 09:41 ---You're absolutely right that I made sweeping generalizations in that particular post.  I'm not sure how you can characterize a collective "you" without doing so.

--- End quote ---
The best way to avoid the problem is not to characterize others for them. The top half of your post where you describe yourself and your own hindsight realizations was effective at conveying your point, while the remainder of your post was rather patronizing and thus mildly insulting.

As for the TV watching bit, I think jon's entire problem comes down to the "hell no" in your original post. Instead of coming down like a hammer, it probably would have been more effective for you to open with what you've said since  ie. "while in this specific situation with the TV the father was being unreasonable, in general a household cannot and should not be a democracy." Notice how much more respectful and open to discussion that approach is?

öde:
"Teaching QC starring the enigmatic Joeseph Hocking is a heart-wrenching..." [Fresh]
"Teaching QC is a stunning return to form for Joeseph Hocking and the..." [Fresh]
"A story that has been told countless times in film, once more tediously retrodden..." [Rotten]
"You'd think Teaching QC would be boring from reading the premise, but thanks..." [Fresh]
"You have to wonder just what Joeseph Hocking was thinking when he agreed to this..." [Rotten]

0bsessions:

--- Quote from: A Wet Helmet on 10 Mar 2008, 09:41 ---The intent of my post was to speak to the concept of a household being a democracy.  I don't believe that it can be, and be functional.

--- End quote ---

This is where I can't seem to see eye to eye with you on it. How is it that it upends the functionality of the household? Given, that obviously your kids shouldn't overrule you on spending decisions and the like, but I feel that trivialities and the occasional more major decision should definitely be open to consideration, especially when teenagers are involved. Stifling such democracy can lead to full scale revolts when it comes to teenagers. I mean, look at it this way: a questionable decision is a questionable decision, no matter who makes it. A democracy isn't a matter of "everyone makes every decision." I'm pretty sure the US wouldn't launch nukes if 51% of the US said, "Hey, let's launch us some nukes." The obviously bad ones like the aforementioned juggling of chainsaws or something like playing with fireworks in the house should be a practical non-issue (I say practical as not every kid develops inherent common sense, just telling a kid "no" isn't going to resolve the issue, they'll just find a way to do it behind your back to either see why they shouldn't or just to prove you wrong). There's always plenty of missteps parents can make which can eventually lead to trouble. A common mantra from my parents when I was under ten was "you have to be nice to your sister because she doesn't know better" (She's mentally ill in many a way), but as soon as I hit middle school, I started testing that boundary because they hadn't properly explained it to me. By the time I was a teenager and I still questioned the issue, eventually we came to a common understanding that, yes, I was way more confrontational than necessary, but they also babied her way too much and this resulted in a "more they give, the more she takes" attitude. We were both wrong, but my parents had the good grace to eventually wise up to the fact that sometimes your kids are right and you are wrong. Now, I obviously don't know you, but everybody makes mistakes and thusly that would determine that every parent makes mistakes. Eliminating the democracy of a household insures that those mistakes will happen with frequency as it eliminates the possibility of an alternative perspective and, worse yet, it plays horribly against the psychology of children where they have a constant desire to push every boundary placed upon them.

A prime example would be the difference between my upbringing and my friend Amanda's (I choose her as she grew up in the same neighborhood, same size family and same income background). My parents had a loose hand with me, very fair and balanced. I didn't have a curfue (Within obvious reason, boundaries were not explicitely stated, but I knew better than to stay out until 1 on a school night), provided I gave them some indicator of where I was. I was trusted to make my own decisions and mistakes, because a child never really learns until they fuck up on their own. This seems to have worked out rather well, as I'm further along and better adjusted in the real world than a very small handful of exceptions amongst people I know. Given, the easy going nature of my parents kept me in the house a bit later than some (I moved out at 20) as I had no specific motivation to leave other than wanting to make it on my own. The difference between me and a lot of others I know who moved out earlier is that a large chunk of them are back home by now, as they weren't prepared.

Meanwhile, the aforementioned "friend" had a very, very strict single parent upbringing. She had a step dad who was a bit overbearing. He was strict and it was his way or the highway. Soon as she hit eighteen, she bolted with her boyfriend. The sudden influx of freedoms and being able to make all of her decisions without parental oversight wrecked her shit. She disappeared from the radar for a long time. I just heard from her a couple weeks ago for the first time in years. She's living with her grandparents because she went up to the city and got herself a nice coke habit. She's both a physical and emotional wreck. That's not to say that all children with overbearing habits are going to turn out to be coke fiends, but it's rather telling.

The prime difference in our upbringings that I feel made the big discrepancy? That freedom of choice and democracy in the household. As I said, my parents let me make my own mistakes. I may have fucked up more than some as a teenager because I had the freedom to do so, but this put me a long way toward not pulling the same fuck ups when I got the full freedom of being on my own. She didn't know her limitations because all of her limitations were parentally enforced. It all falls into the old addage of "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Kids are still growing and it's much easier to learn and change at a younger age. That's how we develop that teenage "I'm smarter than everyone" phase. If a kid makes a stupid decision, it's a lot easier for them to adapt to it and change their lifestyle accordingly than an adult. If I hadn't made those fuck ups as a kid, I'd be making them now when I can't afford to the emotional turmoil or physical pain that comes with it.

jhocking:

--- Quote from: öde on 10 Mar 2008, 09:58 ---"You have to wonder just what Joeseph Hocking was thinking when he agreed to this..." [Rotten]

--- End quote ---
MY THREAD MY RULES


--- Quote from: 0bsessions on 10 Mar 2008, 10:12 ---A democracy isn't a matter of "everyone makes every decision." I'm pretty sure the US wouldn't launch nukes if 51% of the US said, "Hey, let's launch us some nukes."

--- End quote ---
Totally irrelevant point, but technically that is how a pure democracy works. Most people ignore the subtle distinction, but the US is a constitutional republic, not a pure democracy.

Barmymoo:
Something I noticed, particularly when my parents' marriage broke down completely but also a bit before that, was that I had never really realised as a child that my parents could make mistakes. Once I reached my teenage years, I started to see them as people and therefore fallible.

I think it's illustrated by the way that small children see adults as "my teacher" or "my friend's mum" whereas when you get a bit older, they become people with names and a backstory. I was fostered for a while by the parents of some younger friends, and I used to see the adults as "Emma's mum and dad". Now, Emma is "Susan's daughter". Maybe that's more to do with the difference between being an adult and being a child rather than between my parents and I, but it's definitely an age definer.

Also, Obsessions, thusly? That's the best word ever! I've never heard it before, is it real?

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