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Author Topic: Get off my lawn!  (Read 121128 times)

calenlass

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #300 on: 13 Mar 2008, 19:18 »

Once upon a time there was a guy that I knew and his roommate. They went to Georgia Tech. One got hooked on crack. The other got hooked on Evercrack. Guess which one lasted longer!
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ruyi

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #301 on: 13 Mar 2008, 19:18 »

I'd rather stick to alcohol, the benefits and drawbacks of which are well-documented, than try something so controversial and potentially dangerous, especially when it's illegal. The way I see it, better the legal not-very-evil-at-all that you know, than the illegal potentially-very-evil-indeed that you don't.

This is culturally relative. Also, marijuana was made illegal only recently in most places.
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Hat

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #302 on: 13 Mar 2008, 21:39 »

Oh sweet, this thread is about drugs now?

To date, everybody I've known who smoked weed wound up doing one of two things:

1: quitting before it became a problem.

2: getting hooked and dropping out.

Maybe you just know a lot of losers! I for one have not had this problem since around about 2003, when I made a point to stop hanging out with losers. Since then, the people I have met that smoke weed do so in a socially and emotionally healthy manner.

I'm sorry you know so many losers I guess?
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Cam

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #303 on: 13 Mar 2008, 23:03 »

If you look around, it isn't hard to find clinical studies that back up the fact that alcohol and tobacco are worse for you then Marijuana.  The smoke from pot is not good for you.  It is fucking up your lungs, but people don't really smoke pot like they do cigarettes.

Now, to back up my statements, I am going to use wikipedia, since it is always 100% factually accurate. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg

If you want to do some leg work, you can find plenty of other sources that provide similar results from peer reviewed papers. 

Personally, I could care less about pot.  On principle, I believe it should be legal if alcohol is legal.  I don't like it and wouldn't use it even if it was legal.


Some one should create a Law similar to Godwin's Law.  Instead of nazis references, it could mention that the longer a discussion progresses the higher the chance that some one will use Wikipedia to support their point.  Now, we just need a name for it.


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NarwhalSunshine

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #304 on: 13 Mar 2008, 23:28 »

Me and my dad are pretty much the same, except I don't plan on drinking and he isn't ocd.
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onewheelwizzard

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #305 on: 14 Mar 2008, 00:58 »

OK, a few things.  (Do not bother reading this post if you're not interested in drugs.  I go to school to study this kind of stuff and I do a lot of extracurricular research so I have a lot to say about the subject, so this will be tl;dr for a lot of people here.)

First of all, on the "addictive" power of marijuana.  From a medical standpoint, one of the most important measures of the damage done by an addiction is the intensity of withdrawl symptoms.  Basically, something is addictive if the user experiences negative symptoms like pain or health problems if they are denied the drug.  Cigarettes are extremely addictive because nicotine binds to receptor sites all over the body, and therefore the entire body's nervous system is calling out for it every time a hardcore smoker goes too long without it (I've heard that it's absolutely terrible).  Opiates (OxyContin, morphine, heroin, Percocet, etc.) are extremely addictive because of the neural pathways they affect, and the resultant fact that withdrawing from painkiller addiction feels a bit like having third-degree burns all over your body for days.  Alcohol is actually the worst when it comes to addictions because it's the only widely abused drug that can and will actually flat-out kill you if you try going cold turkey after delving too deep into addiction.  A hardcore heroin junkie will probably want to die for an entire month after going cold turkey on heroin (and as such will probably relapse) but a hardcore alcoholic (we're talking lifetime) who tries to go cold turkey will just die, their heart will give out and they will drop like a rock.  A slightly less harder-core alcoholic will suffer delerium tremens.  Alcohol is really, really destructive from the standpoint of addiction.

A hardcore stoner, the hardest-core stoner, someone who smokes superstrong crazy weed 10-15 times a day despite having zero medical reason to do so (of which there are several, by the way, including glaucoma, arthritis, and appetite stimulation during chemotherapy) will probably suffer some pretty serious irritability problems for about a month or two if they stop smoking pot.  They won't be happy about it, but they won't suffer anything even remotely close to the magnitude of seriousness that is heroin, nicotine, or alcohol withdrawl.  Even withdrawing from caffeine is more difficult than withdrawing from weed, at least on a purely biochemical level.  It's quite true that lazy losers have a tendency to be severely enabled by smoking weed and as such you see a lot of very unwise use of it, but this is a problem with the attitude people take towards using it, not a property of the drug itself that causes this phenomenon.  Basically the risk of serious cannabis addiction is virtually zero, if addiction is defined according to medical symptoms associated with use and withdrawl.  "Addiction" to cannabis is a bit like being "addicted" to coming in to work late (which, I'm sure someone will argue here, can be a serious problem for some people).

Oh, and the last study done on the link between weed and cancer found literally zero indication that weed increases cancer risk.  That's not as huge and amazing as it sounds, because they had to control for cigarette smoking among their subjects and so there was a pretty serious confound, but if you trust statistics as a discipline, the fact that they found a 2000% (20X) increased risk for cancer due to cigarette smoking compared to a 0% or even negative risk associated with weed, it starts to make you think.
(Source)
Oh, and the second-largest organization of medical professionals in the nation just endorsed medical marijuana and called for research!

It's not physiologically addictive (unlike caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, and a great many pharmaceuticals), it's not neurotoxic, it's not associated with cancer risk, lots of doctors are ready and willing to accept it as legitimate medicine ... the evidence pretty strongly suggests that marijuana usage is effectively harmless if treated with a modicum of sense, and minimally problematic even for people who don't give enough of a shit to treat themselves with respect as they use drugs.

On the subject of psychedelics ...

I am certain that psychedelics hold a universal potential for personal development (which I define as self-directed improvement in quality of life).  What little research that has been done on them has shown that they are surprisingly effective at a wide range of psychologically therapeutic tasks if used correctly, including treatment for alcoholism and opiate addiction, post-traumatic stress disorder, cluster headaches, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and maybe even anxiety and depression (It's important to point out that different psychedelics are useful for different things.  I'd need to go into specifics if I were to explain each of the treatment possibilities I mentioned but you can rest assured that I'm not making any of it up.)  So from a medical standpoint, they at least have potential as treatments for certain disorders.

However, they also have the unique capacity (among drugs) to make a person who is physically and mentally healthy somehow even more well.  This was actually researched recently ... Johns Hopkins published a study in which researchers gave psilocybin (the stuff in "magic mushrooms" that makes a person trip, more or less similar to LSD in effect and duration) to healthy, normal, middle-aged volunteers who had never taken psychedelic drugs before (but DID engage in spiritual practice or activity such as church worship, meditation, prayer, yoga, etc.)  The results were actually pretty incredible.  A full third of the people who participated in the study said that it was the most important thing that had ever happened to them.  Another third ranked it in the top 5 (alongside landmarks like the death of a parent or the birth of a firstborn child).  Here's the kicker ... at 2 months, 6 months, and 12 months after the study, exactly zero of the participants reported any sort of lasting negative effect (only 30% reported negative effects of any sort even during the experimental sessions), and they all performed equally well on any test given before and after the experiment.  If nothing else, the study proved that it was safe for healthy people to take psilocybin in correctly controlled environments, which is a huge step towards further understanding exactly what it actually does.  The last and most powerful result of the study, though, was that more than 80% of the people who participated said, a year later, that they were better off for having done so.  More than 80%!  That is HUGE.  (If you want to follow up on this study, it was conducted by Roland Griffiths and published in the journal Psychopharmacology.  I forget the date.)

Obviously, as with any other drug, positive results rely upon well-reasoned and responsible use, preferably with the help of a professional.  Unfortunately there is a serious shortage of professionals who are trained in psychedelic administration (they just don't make shamans like they used to these days) and even the medical establishment knows next to nothing about how they could be reasonably used.  So recommending psychedelics to anyone would be jumping the gun in a serious way.

But when 80% of healthy volunteers give resounding positive feedback and 0% give negative feedback, it's worth paying attention to.  That never happens in drug trials.  Those numbers would sound ridiculous to me if I didn't already know firsthand how much good mushrooms can do for a person.

Basically, the POTENTIAL for benefits granted by psychedelics is, I think, universal.  But there are a LOT of counterindications that would make me advise against recreational use, and until we have a lot of sound scientific research on it and a system set up to handle it therapeutically, recreational use is all we have.

I pay a lot of attention to the research that's been done on illegal drugs.  I think it's really important.  I hope nobody minds if I get long-winded about it.
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dennis

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #306 on: 14 Mar 2008, 01:39 »

To date, everybody I've known who smoked weed wound up doing one of two things:

1: quitting before it became a problem.

2: getting hooked and dropping out.

There have been far more of the latter than of the former. I'm yet to encounter anybody who smoked it on a regular basis and wasn't affected by it in some fairly significant way.
Anecdotal evidence, confirmation bias, false dichotomy.

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while it may be to some extent true that quote: "medical organizations and care providers get BIG MONEY for pushing certain drugs" I think I should point out that I'm not aware of any medication designed for weaning people off cannabis. Heroin, yes, there are plenty of mild opiates designed to wean people off Heroin and suchlike, but there aren't such medicines around for Marijuana (to my knowledge). As such, it's difficult for pharmaceutical companies to make a profit off helping people quit cannabis addiction, because there's no product they can sell for that purpose.
There's nothing like methadone for cannabis because cannabis isn't physiologically addictive. There's no withdrawal for cannabis like there is for heroin. Methadone (what I think you're referring to when you say "mild opiate") is used to treat opiate addiction because it doesn't produce a high, but alleviates withdrawal symptoms while blocking the opioid receptors so that using heroin won't produce a high.

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So, if there's no drug being sold to help people quit, and therefore no money being thrown at medical organizations to promote certain products, then ulterior motive goes out the window. With no incentive, those medical groups fall back on the old standby of actually recommending what's best for the patient's mental and physical health.
This is incredibly cynical and insulting to the profession of medicine, in addition to being incorrect.

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I'm all for letting people fuck up their own brains and lives if they so want. It means that they aren't competing with people like me, which makes my life easier. I do, however, think that it's vitally important that people be presented with ALL the facts so that they can make their decision with all of the evidence in front of them. That way, we can reasonably blame their own stupidity rather than misinformation or lack of clear facts.
You're not helping.

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And let's just say that when it comes to trusting information that is given to me, I tend to feel more secure placing my faith in the say-so of a law-abiding, intellectual professional than in the say so of an addict or dealer, either one of which is willfully breaking the law. It's Occam's razor again. I can either make the far-fetched and paranoid assumption that every doctor and medical paper in the world is out to stop me from having fun for no good reason, or make the not-very-far-fetched-at-all and quite reasonable assumption that marijuana is actually bad for me, and that the people who are promoting it are doing so because they want to sell it and get rich.
It's not Occam's Razor, it's a false dichotomy. Whether cannabis is bad for you has nothing to do with the law, or people who push drugs with a profit motive. You just got finished calling doctors drug pushers because they just want to sell drugs, but you trust them over dealers because they just want to sell you drugs?
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Switchblade

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #307 on: 14 Mar 2008, 02:48 »

I'm just passing on what I've been told, by people and sources that I trust implicitly (and with good reason), and what I've experienced for myself. Although you can't cite anecdotal evidence in a research paper, it really ought not to be discounted in this kind of a discussion because it's being used to underpin valid points.

My own experience and research tells me that Marijuana is Bad, Alcohol is Not Bad (it's not necessarily Good, but few things are).  Clearly you have arrived at a different conclusion, and I suspect that there's little I can do to change your mind.

Nevertheless...

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So, if there's no drug being sold to help people quit, and therefore no money being thrown at medical organizations to promote certain products, then ulterior motive goes out the window. With no incentive, those medical groups fall back on the old standby of actually recommending what's best for the patient's mental and physical health.
This is incredibly cynical and insulting to the profession of medicine, in addition to being incorrect.

You've misinterpreted me here, I'm afraid. I was actually refuting the argument that medical groups are biased by pharmaceutical corporations giving them money, not supporting it. My argument was "Even if that is the case, it cannot be the case in this situation because there is no drug for them to push that has any effect". Maybe the tone was cynical, but it certainly wasn't meant to be in support of the statement that

If you think doctors don't push drugs to get money from big pharmaceutical companies then you're living in imaginary land my friend. At least here in the U.S. medical organizations and care providers get BIG MONEY for pushing certain drugs.
.

I agree with you, dennis, that this statement is incredibly cynical and insulting to the profession of medicine.
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #308 on: 14 Mar 2008, 04:50 »

I can't wait for pipe smoking to come back.  Also:  capes.

I smoke a pipe on occasion. It's really nice! I'm getting better at doing smoke rings but I'm kindof out of practice because I only really smoke my pipe once every 5 weeks or so.
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Barmymoo

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #309 on: 14 Mar 2008, 05:14 »

I have a cape.
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There's this really handy "other thing" I'm going to write as a footnote to my abstract that I can probably explore these issues in. I think I'll call it my "dissertation."

Switchblade

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #310 on: 14 Mar 2008, 05:52 »

with your powers combined, you are Captain 1950s!
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Patrick

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #311 on: 14 Mar 2008, 05:55 »

I'd prefer Captain 1880s but I will take what I can get.
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öde

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #312 on: 14 Mar 2008, 06:02 »

If I am tipsy I find myself more sociable and I have a little buzz (desireable!).
If I'm drunk I slur my speech, think slower, and have bad fine motor skills (undesireable!).
If I'm very drunk I'll probably do things I'll regret, maybe hurt people or damage things, and have worse gross motor skills and lack the ability to communicate. I'll also have a hangover the next day (very undesireable!).

If I'm a little high I'll be happy and calm (desireable!).
If I'm stoned I'll be all 'it's an awesome day and you are awesome too,' hungry, and I'll probably be a bit slow (desireable!).
If I'm stoned off my tits I'll space out and go to sleep (not negative!).

I don't really drink any more (a couple of pints of nice beer or a few glasses of nice wine are nice on occasion though), and I've never gone out of my way to get weed except when I wanted to find out what all the fuss was about.

So there's some more anecdotal evidence for you.
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Cam

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #313 on: 14 Mar 2008, 06:44 »

My own experience and research tells me that Marijuana is Bad, Alcohol is Not Bad (it's not necessarily Good, but few things are).  Clearly you have arrived at a different conclusion, and I suspect that there's little I can do to change your mind.

The bulk of medical research disagrees with you sir.  Give onewheeledwizard's post a read or go search through some journals.
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tania

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #314 on: 14 Mar 2008, 07:05 »

if we're going by anecdotal evidence now, i'll also add that literally every single one of my friends smoke pot and they are all smarter and funnier and better than me at just about everything, including school. both my sisters smoke pot too and they are incredibly intelligent successful people. i only ever met a couple of people who smoked so much that they let themselves get addicted (addicted in the sense that joe explained) and it started to interfere with their daily functioning.

this is one of those instances where the assumption is that correlation equals causation. lots of people who are lazy and probably not too smart smoke pot but that doesn't necessarily mean pot is responsible for them being lazy and unintelligent. it could just as feasibly go in the other direction - that people who are already lazy and maybe kind of dumb start smoking pot because it's easier to incorporate into their lifestyles. as demonstrated, lots of very intelligent people smoke pot too so there isn't really a lot of evidence backing up the conclusion that pot makes you stupid.

i realize this can also be applied to my argument about alcohol, that maybe people who are already sort of aggressive and violent are drawn to alcohol and not vice versa, but i still think this is a valid argument because i've yet to see any convincing evidence that pot causes harm to other people aside from those smoking it (and even that's debatable) in any way.
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Switchblade

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #315 on: 14 Mar 2008, 07:25 »

I'd prefer Captain 1880s but I will take what I can get.

Sorry, the special effects budget won't stretch that far.

If you're willing to downgrade to cigars I think we can compromise on Captain 1920s though....
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pilsner

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #316 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:03 »

Oh, and the last study done on the link between weed and cancer found literally zero indication that weed increases cancer risk.  That's not as huge and amazing as it sounds, because they had to control for cigarette smoking among their subjects and so there was a pretty serious confound, but if you trust statistics as a discipline, the fact that they found a 2000% (20X) increased risk for cancer due to cigarette smoking compared to a 0% or even negative risk associated with weed, it starts to make you think.
(Source)
Oh, and the second-largest organization of medical professionals in the nation just endorsed medical marijuana and called for research!

I read an article a few months back summarizing research attempting to explain the apparent contradiction that regular marijuana smokers don't have higher than normal cancer rates, and nothing approaching the cancer rates of cigarette smokers.  Apparently, some researchers are speculating that antioxidants from the marijuana counteract the carcinogens in the burning cigarette.  I'd love to find that article.

Dennis used the phrase confirmation bias and I think that's a very apt way to summarize much of the marijuana research to date. When you construe the situation as a "war on drugs" and demand research to sustain your side in this "war", it shouldn't be surprising that some of the research ends up one-sided. 

Incidentally, the U.S. now has the world's largest prison population, with 7 million Americans or 1 in 32 in jail.  Between 1995 and 2003, inmates imprisoned for drug offenses constituted 49% of the drug population.  You can draw a direct line between the lies promulgated about pot in particular and drug use in general and the epic level of dysfunction in the U.S. prison system.
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0bsessions

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #317 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:05 »

I have known a handful of people who got "hooked" on pot. You know why? They were mentally infirm losers to begin with. Pot is not physically addictive, it's mentally addictive. The kind of people who get hooked on pot are the kind of people who can get hooked on anything because they're emotional cripples who need something to either dull the pain of their meaningless existance or fill the void left by something they're lacking (Nine times out of ten, that something is a fucking personality or they've waited too long between fucking ICP releases).

Alcohol, on the other hand, is physically addictive. You can develop a chemical dependance on it if you have the genetic inclination.

Yes, in a complete vacuum, pot is worse for you. One joint is going to be more unhealthy than one beer because you're depriving your brain of oxygen for a minute and inhaling something that isn't air (Though one joint is less harmful than one cigarette). The thing is, how the fuck often do you see someone drink "just one beer?" The calming and enjoyment effect of one joint would take you close to a dozen beers to emulate and a case of beer is definitely worse for your body as a whole than a single joint. A joint will harm your lungs slightly and have a minor chemical effect on your brain that will only have any lasting effects if you abuse it, which is the same as anything. Abusing caffeine will fuck you up about as bad, too much water can fuck up your bladder, sugar will harm you if you have too much. A case of beer, on the other hand, will fuck with your brain, your liver, your stomache and your circulatory system. You can also drink yourself to death, you cannot smoke yourself to death. You'd long since pass out before you could inhale the amount of pot it would take to somehow overdose on marijuana. One bad night of drinking can kill you or leave you brain damaged, though. The only times you run into shit with pot is when you get something laced with a harder drug and that's a different animal entirely and completely irrelevant to the discussion.

You can keep your studies for all I care. I've tried both. I've thrown up plenty from drinking, I've had many my share of hangovers, but I've never even SEEN a bad experience with pot. If you wanna tell me that pot is worse than me for alcohol I say you put up or shut up, try it and then tell me I'm wrong.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #318 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:11 »

It's true that an addictive personality will find something to get addicted to.  A disproportionate number of overeaters who get gastric bypass surgery become alcoholics, gambling addicts, and obsessive forum surfers with really high post counts (probably).
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tania

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #319 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:32 »

just to add to jon's point: the current estimate of how much pot you'd have to smoke in order to induce a lethal response is 100 pounds per minute, for 15 minutes straight. obviously this is not physically possible.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #320 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:44 »

I would like it noted that despite my comparrisons, I will be getting myself drunk tonight.

I know it's bad for me, I just don't really give a shit.
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I've decided to give up psychology and become a peacock
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JON MADE ME GAY

0bsessions

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #321 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:49 »

Tommy, I will bet you $500 that you cannot smoke yourself to death on marijuana. Shit, what've you got to lose? With the American economy as it is, you're only losing like 1/400th of your paycheck if you lose.
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I've decided to give up psychology and become a peacock
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JON MADE ME GAY

RedLion

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #322 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:53 »

Pilsner raised a good point: if marijuana were recognized for what it is--a relatively harmless mind-altering substance, as opposed to the potentially devastating (mentally, physically and socially) alcohol--the problem of prison over-crowding would cease to be a factor.

I can't say--and frankly I don't think anyone can--that either side of this argument is flat out right or wrong. But a large proportion ofl the evidence, both official and anectodal, points to alarmism of the type encouraged by Switchblade being unfounded and baseless.
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jhocking

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #323 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:54 »

A disproportionate number of overeaters who get gastric bypass surgery become... obsessive forum surfers with really high post counts

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #324 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:56 »

Switchblade:
Just the first few articles/sites I found about doctors taking kickbacks from drug companies, and drug companies being more interested in sales than patient well being.
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/phil/blphil_ethbio_prescript.htm
http://www.pharmaceutical-kickbacks.com/
http://www.naturalnews.com/001298.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/09/business/09anemia.html?partner=MW_CUSTOM

I wish this sort of thing didn't happen, but there is simply far too much money to be made in the health care business for corruption not to take place. Although not directly related to kickbacks, if you want proof that health care providers do not always act in the best interest of their patients, and are even grossly negligent, look no further than the recent case where care providers in numerous Nevada clinics used the same IV needles on many different patients. Somehow I doubt an action that causes an infection of Hepatitis C to a patient counts as being in their best medical interest. It may not be a case of kickbacks, but it goes to show that expecting a business to be moral simply because it ought to be is niave.
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Darkbluerabbit

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #325 on: 14 Mar 2008, 08:57 »

Tommy, I will bet you $500 that you cannot smoke yourself to death on marijuana. Shit, what've you got to lose? With the American economy as it is, you're only losing like 1/400th of your paycheck if you lose.

Although by smoking 100 pounds every minute, you'd be literally burning a few hundred thousand dollars per minute.
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jhocking

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #326 on: 14 Mar 2008, 09:07 »

Shit, what've you got to lose? With the American economy as it is, you're only losing like 1/400th of your paycheck if you lose.
On the other hand, if he wins he dies.

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #327 on: 14 Mar 2008, 09:10 »

Yeah, and?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #328 on: 14 Mar 2008, 10:37 »

On the other hand, if he wins he dies.

but $500 sure would buy a really nice bouquet for his funeral.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #329 on: 14 Mar 2008, 12:04 »

I used to have some cigars.

But I took them to a 1920s seance and never saw them again. I think the ghost stole them.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #330 on: 14 Mar 2008, 15:50 »

If you wanna tell me that pot is worse than me for alcohol I say you put up or shut up, try it and then tell me I'm wrong.

Guess I'm shutting up, then. I'm not about to try it just to prove a point.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #331 on: 14 Mar 2008, 16:39 »

If you're willing to downgrade to cigars I think we can compromise on Captain 1920s though....

Depending on the cigar, that isn't necessarily a downgrade. I'll take it, mate.

I enjoyed smoking weed last summer. Smoking weed was fun. Holy fuck was I ever hungry! Smoking weed is probably good for me in that respect, because I could stand to gain about 20 kilos of weight.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #332 on: 14 Mar 2008, 17:02 »

I do not and will probably never do pot.

The idea that it's less safe than alcohol, one of the biggest killers in the United States, is pretty much hilariously dumb. It's not safe to have on your person because you'll go to jail for carrying a fucking plant and you are a fucking idiot if you are constantly high, a condition you probably started with before the marijuana ever touched you. That's about as far as it goes.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #333 on: 14 Mar 2008, 19:24 »

I do not and will probably never do pot.

The idea that it's less safe than alcohol, one of the biggest killers in the United States, is pretty much hilariously dumb.

See, this is the problem - Alcohol gets you killed quickly, weed doesn't. What it instead does is cause long-term health problems that don't show up until years or even decades later. I'd wager that the percentage of cancer-related deaths that were ultimately triggered by marijuana use is surprisingly high, for example.

The thing is, this serves to camouflage the risk it poses. Because it's not an immediate and obvious cause of death, it's easy to overlook.

Besides (this is purely my opinion this time, I have little to no evidence to back it up) I reckon that the major reason that alcohol is such a big cause of death in the States is at least partially founded in the country's attitude towards it. If you treat Alcohol as this Big Bad Scary Thing that should be avoided, Then the attitude towards it shifts. Round here, a single beer at lunchtime is nothing out of the ordinary (assuming you're having it as part of a meal, at least). On the other hand, from what I gather in certain social circles in the US, drinking quite often revolves around getting as drunk as possible as quickly as possible. I bet if you study the demographic of alcohol-related deaths, you'll discover a pattern - the vast majority will be in their early 20's, having only just been introduced to legal drinking, been thrust in at the deep end, and wound up doing something very dumb (like drinking waaaay too much) because they just didn't know how to cope.

Alcohol generally only kills people because they get stupid when they drink too much of it. That's not an inherent flaw with the drink, rather the flaw belongs to the way people treat the drink and handle its effects. Weed, on the other hand, does Bad Stuff to you even when you don't have a lot of it. It won't (usually) make you do stupid stuff, sure, but it will inevitably affect your health in the long term - Alcohol only does that if you don't handle it responsibly and drink far too much.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #334 on: 14 Mar 2008, 19:40 »

You'd lose that wager on the cancer association, unless you've got evidence to refute the study onewheelwizard already cited which found no correlation between marijuana use and cancer rates and even a slight indication of it having a positive effect.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #335 on: 14 Mar 2008, 19:47 »

I find that particular revelation rather surprising, if I'm honest. The correlation between smoking and cancer is very well-established by now. Yes, okay, there's a different plant involved, but that doesn't change the fact that you're incinerating it, sucking the smoke, half-burnt residue, carbon monoxide and god-knows-what-else into your lungs and breathing it back out.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #336 on: 14 Mar 2008, 19:53 »

Marijuana. Tobacco. One of these things is still legal. It's not the less deadly one.

The illegalization of marijuana was a political maneuver starting in the southwestern United States during Prohibition and the Great Depression to have an excuse to arrest and deport Mexican migrant workers. Since it's much cheaper to grow and make than alcohol, poor people an immigrants would grow it and smoke it as an alternative to alcohol to relax. By criminalizing it, it allowed for the governments of these states to take action against them. [Source: the goddamned History Channel of all places]
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #337 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:26 »

I do not do pot and have no desire to do pot, but when compared to cigarettes and alcohol, it's the safest of all three. Yeah, you're smoking it so of course it'll do lung damage and it makes you high so it'll kill some brain cells, but seriously it is the safest buzz out there. Alcohol can kill your liver and you can easily get alcohol poisoning. Cigarettes can ruin your lungs and give you various cancers of the lungs, throat, and mouth. I have yet to meet someone who chain smokes pot. Seriously. Yes it's a drug and it's not necessarily good for you (though I see it good for people with cancer), but I think it's one of the least harmful things you could do to your body.
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SeanBateman

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #338 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:28 »

When people say "I don't do pot" I always laugh because that is like someone saying "I don't do cigarettes" or "I don't do apples" because you eat an apple and you smoke pot you don't do pot.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #339 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:31 »

I don't do drugs. Better?
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #340 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:35 »

Yes, much. Thanks!
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #341 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:50 »

Cookie dough is so disgusting to eat raw but for some reason I can't stop.

If I get fat because of this, do you think I can somehow sue marijuana?
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idiolect

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #342 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:53 »

It's certainly one of the less harmful things you can do to your body, but it can be pretty seriously harmful in terms of psychological-behavioral effects.  I've known a lot of people who have grown more withdrawn, more lazy, more apathetic, and more selfish directly correlated to their growing pot smoking habit :/  Tobacco generally doesn't interrupt your daily activities like that or cause any real changes to your general behaviors, and as such, I would argue that in short term usage at least it's definitely the least dangerous of the three.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #343 on: 14 Mar 2008, 21:57 »

Yes it does. Have you seen someone when they get pretty attached to their cigarettes and can't have one when they really want one? It can make people neurotic, jumpy, and bitchy. It gets to a point where it stops being a leisure activity and turns into a necessity, just like caffeine, alcohol, and other drugs will cause down the line. Though my case wasn't as bad as Jon's, I did have a caffeine addiction and I was sluggish and bitchy until I had caffeine in the morning and through out the day. When I finally had a panic attack because of it, I cut it out of my diet until I didn't need it anymore. I do drink caffeinated stuff now, but not nearly as much as I did my 1st year of college.
« Last Edit: 14 Mar 2008, 21:59 by Linds »
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SeanBateman

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #344 on: 14 Mar 2008, 22:06 »

That actually served perfectly to remind me that I want a cigarette, but I don't want to go get one.

Dillemma!
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #345 on: 14 Mar 2008, 22:08 »

I can testify as entirely anecdotal evidence that I am so much more of a cunt when I try to quit caffeine or cigarettes than I am when I quit smoking pot but then again I have a legendary dependence on them whereas weed is just some shit I smoke whenever I have some spare time which is not very often and then I write crazy run on sentences and listen to Digitalism.
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power metal set in the present is basically crunk

Amaroq

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #346 on: 14 Mar 2008, 22:55 »

I'd suggest that we lay off; we're dangerously close to - or past - turning this into a political debate.

I think we can pretty much agree to disagree:

In the interests of completeness sake, the number one link from Google searching for "Long-term effects of Marijuana use" is to (link offsite) http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html, which appears to me to contradict a number of onewheelwizzard's statements about the risks of marijuana use.

It includes a conclusion that it has addictive potential; can cause respiratory illness; increased the risk of certain cancers; and, unsusprisingly, could have negative effects on learning and social behavior. It includes citations to each study.

This isn't surprising; as anyone knows, in science, different studies are going to get different results. I have no idea how to tell which sources are government propaganda and which are valid, or which studies cited on either side of the argument might have had significant biases concealed in them. Onewheelwizzard has a pro-psychadelics bias which might cloud his judgment (No insult intended - I don't know him!) just as much as a drug-war-funded government propaganda site may be biased. I can't tell.

That's why I'd suggest we leave it at "agree to disagree".

  . . . .

Errata from elsewhere in the thread:

My personal choice aside, I support legalization, whether its come across that way or not. I've got an almost libertarian view on the issue; I can't see why there should be any legal distinction between tobacco, alchohol, and marijuana. I'd really like to see increased literature on it.

 . . . .

For anybody who believe that the medical profession doesn't have kickbacks happening, I've seen it in action from a patient's perspective:

Went to a doctor I had not previously seen before, for assistance with some RSI pain. While waiting for him to enter the room, I noticed that he had posters, pens, and pamphlets all touting a prescription pain medication, Celerex. (sp?)

I described what I was taking for it (over-the counter naproxen sodium) which I reported to him was typically effective for me; what I wanted was a physical therapy referral.

He insisted on writing me a prescription for Celerex.

When I asked him why I should switch, he gave me a very vague, "Well, sometimes, pain medications can become less effective over time."

I believe to this day that he was accepting some form of compensation from the makers of the drug in question; of course, I cannot prove it - but I certainly never went back to him, either.

 . . . .

Some one should create a Law similar to Godwin's Law.  Instead of nazis references, it could mention that the longer a discussion progresses the higher the chance that some one will use Wikipedia to support their point.  Now, we just need a name for it.
Uh, clearly this is now Cam's Law8-)

 . . . .

Okay: next poster up, what's our new topic?

Make it something good!
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #347 on: 14 Mar 2008, 23:00 »

Who the fuck are you and why are you trying to change the subject of this thread.
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power metal set in the present is basically crunk

David_Dovey

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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #348 on: 14 Mar 2008, 23:45 »

...and listen to Digitalism.

Brett you are addicted to hipster dance music and no matter how good it makes you feel now it'll come back to bite you later.
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Re: Get off my lawn!
« Reply #349 on: 14 Mar 2008, 23:47 »

I can't stop doing souless hipster dance music

I am getting the shakes something fierce

In my boo-tay
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