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The most hilarious thing I have ever read in relation to Joss Whedon

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Ozymandias:

--- Quote from: idiolect on 27 Mar 2008, 06:37 ---A bunch of people have made this comment, and I've sort of flinched every time, because I know exactly how she's going to react: with indignation that you would be so comfortable with women in a subordinate role that you wouldn't bother to question it.  That, of course, isn't really the problem -- what's really the problem is that she did a terrible job of making her original complaint, and just ripped a single line from the script and says SEE SHE CALLS HIM SIR BLAAARGHHH instead of explaining anything.  But when you're analyzing something like this, in general, don't just go "well of course, that's how the show is," because the whole thing at issue is why the show is set up that way (e.g. why is Zoe a military subordinate in the first place, etc etc)


NOTE: I do NOT agree with 99.9% of what this self-appointed exemplar of feminism (argh) says, I just think saying what amounts to "well that's how the story is" as if it's some kind of analysis is kind of silly.

--- End quote ---

When you start thinking about "why is the story how it is" it does start to lead to an analysis that questions just how much Joss's shows are "feminist". Both Buffy and Firefly feature very strong female leads, but in both instances they answer to a male authority and the only logic as to way they have to answer to him is because, basically, "he's the authority because he's the authority." Ostensibly, Giles and Mal are "smarter" than Buffy or Zoe. They make the plans. Eventually, Buffy rejects Giles's authority, but the result is not much change at all, as she continuously comes to him for the ideas and the plans through the fifth season. In the sixth season, Giles leaves and Buffy's life goes to hell, only to be fixed upon his return. Admittedly, the sixth season was bullshit in its entirety, but it still bears thought. I don't think Joss is intentionally subverting his feminist message, but I do think it's something that bears more thought when calling either show feminist or even holding feminist ideals, because I think this is a recurring dichotomy in a lot of science fiction. There's no problem with having a strong female character as long as she's kept in check by a "smarter" male authority. The Terminator comes to mind, I just read Snow Crash and Y.T. is definitely directed if not controlled by the men of the novel, in Dune, even, the Bene Gesserit use their consider power to aid men rather than themselves and their ultimate goal is a perfect man. The only thing I can think off of the top of my head where the strong female character successfully bucks authority and takes control for the better is Aliens.

Addendum: This woman is crazy.

RobbieOC:
This is the argument that Laura Mulvey always made (makes?) in her articles. I have specifically read an article (scholarly, no less) about Wonder Woman and Buffy and how they deal with authority figures, as opposed to heroes like Batman and Superman, who basically put on a cape and started fighting crime. There's a big double standard in all of fiction about this kind of thing. Buffy is about as close as it comes to true feminism in the mainstream, but it still leaves a lot to be desired.

Plus, Zoe: hot. Buffy: hot. Fred/Illyria: hot. Joss can say he has strong women all he wants (and I do believe that for the most part he's at least trying to create good female characters), but as long as these women are as hot as they are, it all seems kind of shallow. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they are hot, but it seems strange to say "No, these are strong women, not just objects to be looked at" and then hire Sarah Michelle Gellar to play the role.

Oh, the Powder Puff Girls were in that article, also.

muteKi:
I suppose it says a lot about me that after reading the rest of the comments on the article I high-tailed it to DOMAI?

CLEARLY I AM AN EVIL RAPIST DEMON MAN WATCH OUT LADIES

Here's what some random person commented with:

--- Quote ---How you pointed out that the way in which Wash treats Zoe isn't loving but LUDE! He even pats her butt in one episode! And when he is talking to the Alliance guy about her legs and watching her bathe - I mean c'mon! I don't even let my husband watch me bathe because I know he is leering and leering is NOT permitted! Not with me! Men - that is NOT love it is just lust when you 'admire' your wife's body like that!
--- End quote ---

Yes, admiring natural beauty is wrong everyone! When you're out appreciating forests or sunsets or beaches you're committing leering, and that's just plain lude.

Border Reiver:
Based on the writings, this person is a radical, and like most radicals will interpret what she reads/sees based on her extreme beliefs. 

Generally, the way to deal with people like this is to ignore them, and by not carrying on about them and giving credence to their viewpoint by caring enough to be ticked off by it they can be difused. 

And on a different note, I wonder what she thinks of Battlestar Galactica and they way the Marines and Chief Tyrol oppress Capt Starbuck by calling her "Sir".

Jackie Blue:
Actually I would say that Zoe is often demonstrably "smarter" than Mal and her answering to him because "he's the captain" is not really an issue because, as she explains at least once or twice in the series, she tends to go with his plans because she agrees with them.  I believe her and Wash had that exact conversation in that one episode where Wash gets all jealous.

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