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[Aminal]

Yeah, actually can we clarify what "emo" means?  I thought it meant listening to Dashboard Confessional, wearing tight black pants, and having a hairclaw across your face.  They were just kinda sad and quiet, but like a kicked puppy, not like a goth.  I get the feeling it means something different now?

Please educate me, friends.

EDIT:  Nope, apparently it means the same thing.  But that makes even less sense!  Why hit the sad kids?

[a pack of wolves]

There are two things. You have a very vague categorisation of people who like to wear tight fitting t-shirts and jeans, listen to bands like My Chemical Romance, often have hair that sweeps across their face that is usually black and straightened and that's about it.

Then you have music that's sometimes also known as post-hardcore in some of its forms which started with bands like Rites Of Spring, The Hated and Embrace and these days is played by La Quiete, Kids Return, Funeral Diner etc. It's very closely associated with/a subgenre of (depending on how you want to look at it) hardcore punk and is normally the most vehement in its attachment to the DIY ethic.

[lol@yourface]

Without irony, I have an honest question.

Are there really kids out there who claim to be 'emo'? Seriously. Are there kids, wherever anyone here lives, who wake up and think 'today I will be emo'.

I cannot believe this happens. I really think this entire thing might be complete bullshit.

round near where I live, you will get people who claim to be emo, If you go in to the Cardiff, you will come across a field which they have named "emo field" if you walk across it you get hugged and walked at by drunk/stoned kids or given evil looks.

[idiolect]

Idiolect, I don't get why you've been going on about how skins are racists and fascists and yet you were the person who brought up SHARP.

Because skins are racists and fascists, and SHARPs are not?

[KharBevNor]

SHARPs are skins.

The acronym is 'SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice'.

[MadassAlex]

Without irony, I have an honest question.

Are there really kids out there who claim to be 'emo'? Seriously. Are there kids, wherever anyone here lives, who wake up and think 'today I will be emo'.

I cannot believe this happens. I really think this entire thing might be complete bullshit.

I know people who wake up in the morning and think, "today I will be emo."

[Nodaisho]

Me too, don't know them anymore though, since I am no longer in highschool, and have not seen any that act like that in college.

[imapiratearg]

That's because people in college don't suck, as far as I can tell.

[Nodaisho]

...So many jokes I could make. Oh so many. I did see someone there with a Clutch shirt, which I had never seen before, so that is bonus points to college.

[imapiratearg]

BLOWJOBS HUURRR.

But seriously, people are more mature and therefore more fun to hang out with.

[idiolect]

SHARPs are skins.

The acronym is 'SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice'.

Have you met many people who know to mention SHARPs in the context that I did but wouldn't know what it stands for?

Anyway, sure, okay, sharps are skins.  I was considering them as two different groups in a large part because they generally function as two different groups and clash pretty seriously when brought in close contact with each other (in my experience at least, and admittedly all these things vary regionally).  I mean, I guess if SHARPs are actively trying to reclaim "skinhead" as a term, then if I want to support that I should be more careful about how I use it, but I didn't really see any confusion in what I was saying before -- I mean, I brought up SHARPs because someone was talking about how they were worried that there weren't anti-racist skins 

[E. Spaceman]

Without irony, I have an honest question.

Are there really kids out there who claim to be 'emo'? Seriously. Are there kids, wherever anyone here lives, who wake up and think 'today I will be emo'.

I cannot believe this happens. I really think this entire thing might be complete bullshit.

Yes, a lot of them. My brother went through a phase actually, and a lot of his friends call themselves "emo"

[a pack of wolves]

Have you met many people who know to mention SHARPs in the context that I did but wouldn't know what it stands for?

Anyway, sure, okay, sharps are skins.  I was considering them as two different groups in a large part because they generally function as two different groups and clash pretty seriously when brought in close contact with each other (in my experience at least, and admittedly all these things vary regionally).  I mean, I guess if SHARPs are actively trying to reclaim "skinhead" as a term, then if I want to support that I should be more careful about how I use it, but I didn't really see any confusion in what I was saying before -- I mean, I brought up SHARPs because someone was talking about how they were worried that there weren't anti-racist skins 

It was very confusing actually, since you mentioned SHARPs you were clearly aware not all skinheads are racist or fascist, but then you started saying they were which doesn't make any sense and easily leads to the conclusion that you don't know what SHARP stands for. From what I can tell I think you were basically assuming that everybody else used a different term for any skinheads that aren't racist, fascist or violent, but this isn't actually the case.

[Joseph]

Emilio, an aside.  What does it take for someone to be banned?

[Christophe]

But seriously, people are more mature and therefore more fun to hang out with.

You obviously don't go to UC Merced.

Our prime attractions are being the first research university built in the 21st century, a kick-ass writing faculty, and being a very green, environmentally conscious campus. While this is good and all, our brand new status means that we get a lot of people who wouldn't have the grades and test scores to get into any of the other UCs (me included). Hence, I hate a good 85%-95% of our student body, who happen to be idiot dumbfucks who couldn't properly put together a coherent, rational sentence, much less put them into an essay. While I missed out on traditional high school drama by attending an all-boys high school, UCM's pastiche of people who wear Hollister t-shirts is more than making up for it. Plus, a lot of them have terrible fucking taste in music. There is a small, endearing, yet good local indie scene that most people on campus couldn't give two shits about.

The people who are my friends here are wonderful people. The people who suck suck with aplomb.

I apologize for hijacking this thread.

[idiolect]

It was very confusing actually, since you mentioned SHARPs you were clearly aware not all skinheads are racist or fascist, but then you started saying they were which doesn't make any sense and easily leads to the conclusion that you don't know what SHARP stands for. From what I can tell I think you were basically assuming that everybody else used a different term for any skinheads that aren't racist, fascist or violent, but this isn't actually the case.

I'm confused now -- what I at least meant to be saying was that there IS a term for non-racist (anti-racist, really) skinheads, which is a SHARP, but SHARPs generally call themselves SHARPs explicitly to distinguish themselves from what "skinhead" usually means, and so it seemed to make sense to mean "racist skinhead" when you say "skinhead" and say SHARP for "non-racist skinhead," since that's how they distinguish themselves, and that's what the words mean and how they're used...? 

Just for the record, SHARPs are exempt from the complaints I've made about skinheads, for obvious reasons.

[a pack of wolves]

Ah, I see the problem now. SHARPs are a specific group and not an alternative word for a non-racist skinhead. SHARPs are skinheads, and not all non-racist skins are SHARPs.

[idiolect]

Ah, I see the problem now. SHARPs are a specific group and not an alternative word for a non-racist skinhead. SHARPs are skinheads, and not all non-racist skins are SHARPs.

SHARPs are a specific group, but it seems weird to me to imagine non-racist skins who aren't SHARPs.  I mean, if you're going to be a skinhead that pretty much requires you to take an active stance on racism, and to be an actively anti-racist skin is to be a SHARP, unless you're an actively anti-racist skin who somehow hasn't yet heard that SHARP is a thing you can be (which seems implausible to me). 

[MadassAlex]

Racism was not a part of the skinhead ideology at the point of its conception.

[Jackie Blue]

Racism was not a part of the skinhead ideology at the point of its conception.

Exactly my point.

[idiolect]

Racism was not a part of the skinhead ideology at the point of its conception.

Yes but arguing that the types of skinheads who are bashing up scenester kids have anything to do with the original spirit and mindset of 1977 punk rock is about as logical as trying to find a link between the beliefs of the Westboro Baptist Church with mainstream Christianity.

The link is existent, but so tenuous as to be negligible.

[MadassAlex]

Irrelevant, because I was arguing the relevance and depth of skinhead culture and viewing the issue from another viewpoint.

[imonfire]

What exactly defines "skinheads" if they arent envolved in racist activity?

You obviously don't go to UC Merced.

Or the University of Manitoba (in Canada!! woo). I took two years off before going back to school, so a majority of my first year classmates are younger than me and my university is overflowing with the emo style. I think it looks cute on girls, but kind of repulsive on boys. I would never agree to any violence against them though. Its really unfortunate that things like this happen.

[idiolect]

Irrelevant, because I was arguing the relevance and depth of skinhead culture and viewing the issue from another viewpoint.

My point was that it's a viewpoint which is manifestly not the same today as it was in 1977, and which we were originally discussing as it relates to a recent event that appears to involve current skinhead culture.  If you want to bring the "depth" and history of skinhead culture to bear on the conversation we were having (i.e. argue its relevance), I could see it being enlightening to discuss the trajectory of skinhead culture from its original inception to today, and make note of the ways in which it changed over the years to become the kind of culture that would encourage violence, aggression, and a host of ideological problems.

[Nodaisho]

BLOWJOBS HUURRR.

But seriously, people are more mature and therefore more fun to hang out with.

What do you mean blowjobs? I was talking about the number of people that smoke there.

I suppose you have a point about maturity, though I find it more fun to hang out with the one friend I have stayed in contact with from junior high / high school, that could very well have to do with how well we know each other.

[supersheep]

SHARPs are a specific group, but it seems weird to me to imagine non-racist skins who aren't SHARPs...

There are other groups, such as RASH, or AFA. Plenty of non-affiliated, vaguely anarchist skinheads hanging around the Dublin punk scene too, as far as I know. Actually, I'd say that non-racist skinheads outnumber racist skins in Ireland by a huge wedge.

[MadassAlex]

Indeed, idiolect, it seems you are doing little but holding to a stereotype.

Such misunderstandings, coincidentally, could be strongly linked to the current violence against "emo"s.

[idiolect]

SHARPs are a specific group, but it seems weird to me to imagine non-racist skins who aren't SHARPs...

There are other groups, such as RASH, or AFA. Plenty of non-affiliated, vaguely anarchist skinheads hanging around the Dublin punk scene too, as far as I know. Actually, I'd say that non-racist skinheads outnumber racist skins in Ireland by a huge wedge.

Really?  That's interesting.  Well, sorry if I've been spreading misinformation then, I've been speaking from my own experience which is admittedly regionally specific (and probably also wouldn't be aware of anything that's happened since the very early 2000s, either).  I wonder if there's a difference between how things are in the U.S. and the U.K. with regards to this?

Indeed, idiolect, it seems you are doing little but holding to a stereotype.

Still waiting for you to justify that claim to current relevance.

Such misunderstandings, coincidentally, could be strongly linked to the current violence against "emo"s.

Yep, it's totally my fault that some skinheads beat up some emo kids on a continent I've never even been to.  I'm sure they couldn't help it, since they're just so misunderstood, and really it's easy to understand how someone would act bizarrely if they feel misunderstood.  Unless, of course, they decide to express that angst through being an emo kid.  That's just unacceptable.

[MadassAlex]

This conversation is currently testing my patience, especially considering that the alleged racism of the skinhead culture is absolutely irrelevant to my point on the cause of the violence. I could have made examples of metalheads and punks and it would have made not an inkling of difference.

Let's make a deal: if you can prove, comprehensively, without a doubt, that racism and violence are the necessary ingredients of the skinhead culture then I will no longer argue against you.

In any case, the "relevance" is in relation to its members and the values that underpin the culture. In simple terms: skinheads provide an underground community for themselves that is closer knit than most religions. That is what I call relevant, especially when compared to a shallow culture of moneymaking.

Yep, it's totally my fault that some skinheads beat up some emo kids on a continent I've never even been to.  I'm sure they couldn't help it, since they're just so misunderstood, and really it's easy to understand how someone would act bizarrely if they feel misunderstood.  Unless, of course, they decide to express that angst through being an emo kid.  That's just unacceptable.

Thanks for entirely missing my point. I was suggesting that your attitude and discrimination are what leads to violence in people so inclined. Because if a violently inclined person believed, like you do, that members of a certain subculture are a certain way all the time, then they may very well resort to violence.
Hell, your notion of "these people are definately always bad" is what leads to this.

[Hat]

Let's make a deal: if you can prove, comprehensively, without a doubt, that racism and violence are the necessary ingredients of the skinhead culture then I will no longer argue against you.

It would be much easier for you to concede that there might be a possibility that other places  have skinhead cultures with absolutely no redeeming qualities, and then we can find another arbitrary point to argue about pointlessly!

[MadassAlex]

That's basically the equivalent of saying that some places have communities of irredeemable black people. I will not concede to such a blatantly discriminatory viewpoint.

[idiolect]

Man, I give up.  You're just going to keep ignoring anything I say, not responding to any legitimate questions, and doing nothing except screaming OMG DISCRIMINATION against the oh-so-very-unusual notion that maybe skinheads are racist and violent, which is just absurd.  And your last comment there, comparing this ridiculous "discrimination against skinheads" thing to discrimination against black people, is borderline racist itself.  I suppose you can respond to this if you absolutely must have the last word, but you're not getting any more out of me.

[a pack of wolves]

To be fair, saying skinheads are racist and violent is discrimination since it's a lie. It may be true where you live, I wouldn't know, but that makes the statement 'skinheads in town x are racist' true not the statement 'skinheads are racist'. It is completely different to racist discrimination though, that's a poor argument and makes no sense as a response to what Hat said.

[Jackie Blue]

the oh-so-very-unusual notion that maybe skinheads are racist and violent

Saying that skinheads are racist and violent is literally as bad as saying that black people are drug dealers and gang members, or that gay men are promiscuous, or that women are no good at math.

Jesus, I think even the Wikipedia page makes this clear.  Why are you arguing about this?  You clearly have pretty much zero knowledge of the original, true skinhead subculture.

PS: I'm technically a skinhead.  I don't call myself a SHARP but I am completely anti-racism and probably the least violent person I know.

[imagist42]

the oh-so-very-unusual notion that maybe skinheads are racist and violent

Saying that skinheads are racist and violent is literally as bad as saying that black people are drug dealers and gang members, or that gay men are promiscuous, or that women are no good at math.

Or that emos are weepy and worthless and have brought this violence upon themselves with their unquestionably bad sense of fashion?

[öde]

To me, a skinhead is someone who has no hair on their scalp. I mean that clue is in the name.

[E. Spaceman]

Emilio, an aside.  What does it take for someone to be banned?

Just send a PM to Est. If you think someone has done something ridiculously ban-worthy, I'm pretty sure he will agree in 90% of the times.

That's what I do (and did) 

[Jackie Blue]

Or that emos are weepy and worthless and have brought this violence upon themselves with their unquestionably bad sense of fashion?

Yes, exactly.

[teh pwn queen]

Man, I give up.  You're just going to keep ignoring anything I say, not responding to any legitimate questions, and doing nothing except screaming OMG DISCRIMINATION against the oh-so-very-unusual notion that maybe skinheads are racist and violent, which is just absurd.  And your last comment there, comparing this ridiculous "discrimination against skinheads" thing to discrimination against black people, is borderline racist itself.  I suppose you can respond to this if you absolutely must have the last word, but you're not getting any more out of me.

He was not ignoring what you said.  You are both making very legitimate arguments.  However, since they are basically polar opposites, both of you continued this circular argument because neither would agree with the opposing viewpoint.
And anways, he was just giving a frikkin example to work with, he was talking about the support that this kind of culture 'gang' (I use the term loosely) can provide what the so-called manufactured subculture cannot, because it won't last, or at least morph into a new entity to applies to a new, slightly different group.
You were only focused on the 'morally reprehensible' aspect of his argument, which made it impossible for you to concede to any of his points.

[idiolect]

I'm just surprised at all of the people who actually buy into this whole "discrimination against skinheads" thing.  I mean, just take the statement "skinheads are generally racist and violent."  Do you guys seriously think that I'm just totally wrong about that, that skinheads totally aren't racist and violent and (as suggested) that I'm somehow lying about that?  That's just crazy to me, the "wow do we even live on the same planet" kind.  It's really not that I've got this extreme opinion that I'm unwilling to part with, it's just that (in the U.S. at least, I'm willing to buy that it might be different in the UK) that's just what people think of when they hear the word skinhead, and what people mean when they call themselves a skinhead.  If they're not racist or violent or at least extremely right-wing, they're going to have a different name that denotes those departures from the norm.


Also, come on guys, saying that skinheads -- OR saying that any subculture, which people enter into by choice -- is this or that negative way, even if it is prejudicial, is never, ever as bad as actual racism or sexism.  Please stop making those comparisons.  Maybe compare it to religion if you want, but definitely don't compare the kind of discrimination that people suffer for dressing differently to the centuries upon centuries of institutional oppression that racism and sexism constitute.

[Jackie Blue]

I'm just surprised at all of the people who actually buy into this whole "discrimination against skinheads" thing.  I mean, just take the statement "skinheads are generally racist and violent."  Do you guys seriously think that I'm just totally wrong about that, that skinheads totally aren't racist and violent and (as suggested) that I'm somehow lying about that?

You're not lying, you're just not getting it.  Are there idiots who call themselves skinheads that are racist and violent?  Why yes, of course there are.  That doesn't mean they are skinheads.

Also, come on guys, saying that skinheads -- OR saying that any subculture, which people enter into by choice -- is this or that negative way, even if it is prejudicial, is never, ever as bad as actual racism or sexism.  Please stop making those comparisons.  Maybe compare it to religion if you want, but definitely don't compare the kind of discrimination that people suffer for dressing differently to the centuries upon centuries of institutional oppression that racism and sexism constitute.

I wasn't saying that skinheads suffer the level of unfair treatment that some genders and races do in some parts of history, I was saying that it is as logically indefensable to say "skinheads are this way" based on an untrue stereotypical caricature you have as it is to say "Well, all the black people I know are in gangs, so obviously black people are gangsters".

[idiolect]

Except that subcultures are prescriptive, whereas something like race is not.  There's a certain way in which a member of a certain subculture, as a member, is supposed to act, and so if you meet a sufficiently large enough sample size of that subculture and compare their behaviors to look for evidence of a common presecriptive mindset, you can probably get a pretty decent picture of what that mindset might be like (particularly if the subculture is obscure or hardcore or just generally disliked enough to weed out most poseurs).

[Scandanavian War Machine]

um i thought the qualifier for being a skinhead was being racist and intolerant?

so what you are saying is that there are skinheads who aren't racist? wouldn't that just make them regular bald people?

[teh pwn queen]

But race was never the issue... that's the whole point.  It's about people put together by fashion, interests, and personality. Genetic appearance has little to do with the decision.  Which is important to the overall question and argments.  It was that person's decision to become who they are.  Which now begs the question: why are these other people violating their right to choices?
The fact that skinheads are a culture WAS JUST AN EXAMPLE.... for good or ill is anyone's decision.
The issue at hand is dealing with asking for the reason why these other cultures, dedicated to the parallel interests of emos, feel it their duty to react with extreme hate and aggression at any given moment.

[Jackie Blue]

How is "gangster" any less a subculture than "skinhead", exactly?

You're saying "I've seen a bunch of dumb white kids who shave their heads and beat up other races.  They say they are skinheads, so I guess skinheads are dumb white kids who shave their heads and beat uip other races."

I fail to see how that is any different from saying "I've seen a bunch of dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs.  I guess all black kids who dress that way shoot each other and deal drugs."

Seriously this is hurting my brain.

PLEASE JUST READ THIS ALREADY:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinhead

[idiolect]

How is "gangster" any less a subculture than "skinhead", exactly?

You're saying "I've seen a bunch of dumb white kids who shave their heads and beat up other races.  They say they are skinheads, so I guess skinheads are dumb white kids who shave their heads and beat uip other races."

I fail to see how that is any different from saying "I've seen a bunch of dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs.  I guess all black kids who dress that way shoot each other and deal drugs."

Because the actual parallel quote would be "I've seen a bunch of dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs.  They say they are gangsters, so I guess gangsters are dumb black kids who dress a certain way and shoot each other and deal drugs."  You don't see the difference between that statement and what you said above?

[MadassAlex]

It's simple. Saying, "These people are this way" is the same as saying "These people are this way". No matter how you slice it, it's highly discriminatory and feeds stereotypes. No matter who it applies to, race, religion, nationality, subculture, it is just as dangerous and, in my opinion, morally questionable.

After all, saying "These people are this way" is what leads to most racial, religious, national and subculture violence. It's like the odd SxE hardcore kid beating up some guy smoking outside the venue he's at because he believes that people who "ruin their own bodies will have it done for them if they're that set on it". The violence happens on different scales, places and with different people but it's hard to deny that its root is, more or less, discrimination and pre-emptive judgment.

Which is why, idiolect, your argument is so ironic. In a thread about discrimination towards emos, you're arguing that we should discriminate against skinheads while holding the belief that the discrimination towards emos was wrong.

Who made us God to say, "These people are this way"?

[Jackie Blue]

Thank you, Alex.  I am done beating my head against this particular wall.

[Scandanavian War Machine]

 hang on there, ZD.
i'll admit that skinheads were not always racist, if you admit that nowadays any skinhead you find is most likely a racist. you know why that is? because of what they say, not how they dress or what they do. anyone claiming to be skinhead today is extremely likely to be a racist. i doubt very many people today remember that  skinheads didn't used to be that way. if there is a "traditional" skinhead who isn't racist etc. then he probably doesn't call himself a skinhead. he probably calls himself something different. not necessarily, but it's pretty likely.

i'm not discriminating against anyone, in case you were thinking about saying i was. i could care less about emo kids. they don't bother me in the least. it's also worth noting that i never said "skinheads are bad, let's kill them" because that's just plain silly. i do hate racists, but i don't wish harm upon them by any means. i wouldn't care if harm happened to befall them but that's not unique to skinheads or racist; that's how i feel about pretty much everyone.

[Ocarina654]

um i thought the qualifier for being a skinhead was being racist and intolerant?

so what you are saying is that there are skinheads who aren't racist? wouldn't that just make them regular bald people?

This was my understanding.
Apparently this is isn't the case.

Bringing race into this argument is absolutely ridiculous.  No one chooses to be black or white or whatever (or male or female, in most cases), but they DO choose to associate themselves with whatever group, be it skinheads, gangsters, or emos.  I agree that in most cases judging people (or in the original case in point, attacking them) based on group affiliation is ridiculous.  But they chose to join that group.  This may sound like I'm saying "They brought it on themselves," but there is a difference.  If the common viewpoint of skinheads is that they're violent racists, then even if someone is a non-racist skinhead, they have to realize that there is a cultural affiliation with racist skinheads, for better or worse.
Taking this back to the original discussion, if one chooses to dress and/or act in the emo style, they have to realize that some people DON'T like them, despite them never having done anything.
I face this sort of thing every time I mention I listen to metal, or wear a shirt that has any of my favorite bands on it.  Most people (around here at least) think of metal as the likes of Korn, Slipknot, and Distrubed.  By my definition, this isn't even metal.  And hey, guess what, the common viewpoint is DIFFERENT FROM THE ORIGINAL MEANING!  So I understand the frustration that comes when people think your choice of subcultural affiliation is different than what you think it is/means/whatever.
In my case this isn't that big of a deal, I just say "No, those band's aren't really what I call metal." and if they're interested, I inform them a bit more.
This is going to be harder to do with a subculture that has been known, whether correct or incorrect, to cause violence.  Why?  Because people don't like violence.

Whether the true original Skinheads were violent racists or not doesn't change the fact that the commonly accepted view of skinheads is that of a violent racist.  Oh no!  The common view is different from the truth or the original usage!  This has never happened before!  Oh wait, it happens all the time.

I do think that its kinda funny that in this case the discussion of skinheads had nothing to do with racist violence, and I actually agree with Max's original point, and that in order to understand why something happens, you have to look at it objectively first.
For example, Why did this one particular man commit murder?  You could easily just say "Because he's BAD!" but that really doesn't explain why.  Maybe he was insane, maybe he wanted to settle a grudge, maybe he didn't mean to murder, but things got out of hand, etc.