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[a pack of wolves]

Were they performers or fans, promoters or label owners? I've only seen the first Decline... and I must admit I don't know too much about hair metal.

Hardcore's still far less mainstream than metal, and although it might be less deliberately offensive for the sake of it (except for grindcore of course) it's not exactly a proponent of mainstream values. There may be a fair number of bands in black metal that espouse values very opposed to the mainstream that description doesn't describe every band in the sub-genre just a few, which can't be said about anarcho punk. Death metal lyrics might be as shocking as a horror movie but they're pretty clearly similar to that, fantasies (although like horror movies they often have a lot to say and aren't just escapism). Whereas with hardcore bands being militantly vegan, anarchist, pro-choice, anti-homophobic etc is par for the course. Songs with lyrics like "No more bullshit end it now, thanks to the ALF keep it up. Claim we're nazis, claim we're criminals. Authorities scared of the movement" are perfectly normal, whereas with metal a band like Cattle Decapitation with an explicitly vegan message attracts notice. When I got into hardcore it was a surprise if you found out somebody ate meat, Christians were unheard of and if a Christian band did come about then they'd definitely have a load of songs written about how they should get the hell out of the scene, and right wingers were something that only occurred in the US, which led to bands like Zao getting threatened with any action to prevent their gigs in the UK taking place that were necessary. Also, I could be wrong about this but it seems that punk bands have had a trickier time with the authorities (in the US and UK at least) than metal. Running battles with the cops at Black Flag gigs, squats getting raided, prosecutions for Crass and the Dead Kennedys for obscenity which were blatantly politically motivated etc.

I'm not saying metal can't be controversial, or political, or shocking to some people, there are so many examples of great metal bands who've done just that. But I do think that in general hardcore punk is a genre far more opposed to the general values of mainstream society. I might be biased since I have a strong connection with it, but I'm sure it's no less controversial. I also think you have to take into account not only the perceptions of people unacquainted with the genre but also the way the material within the genre is perceived by the listeners, and the relative obscurity of hardcore to compared to metal.

[karl gambolputty...]

There were definitely a bunch of female performers in the hair/glam metal scene.  Lita Ford is the only one I can think of off the top of my head, but there were others, for sure.

If we're talking about hardcore punk, I'm pretty sure it started out just as much a boy's club as metal is.  Until the whole Olympia/Riot Grrl/K Records thing, were there really any female members of punk bands?  The bassist from Black Flag and the Butthole Surfers' drummer are the only ones that come to mind.

[diablo_man]

okay i get what you are saying then. i do think that most of the stuff i said covers a lot of the more underground groups but okay. while you say hardcore tends to hate christian bands, id presume there is a lot more actual hating of christians in metal. for clarification to the other person, im not talking about hairl metal or the more mainstream stuff.
both genres have the "us against the world" thing going on, plenty of bands have been kicked out of places for being to "off the beaten track" im pretty sure there are quite a few metal bands that have been flat out banned from ever going to certain countries because of their subject matter.
Again i have much more knowledge about metal than i do about hardcore, so take what i am saying with a grain of salt.

hardcore is definitely more obscure than metal, the problem is that metal is so "infamous". id rather people didnt know what i was about than already have the wrong idea about it.  so im probably going to keep thinking my preferred genre is the more high risk one, but i see what you are getting at there.

why there is more women in one than the other? no clue. may have something to do with the music itself, not all the stuff surrounding it, though i don't know how.
i kind of want to say that level of skill required to play punk (not hardcore) is so low that practically anyone can start a band. with more people in punk bands and the easy accessability, there could probably be more women in the genre. note i am not saying that because it is easy the female-male ratio would change just that the ease of access and increased volume of people in the genre means that some of them are bound to be women. back to the high risk thing, punk(not hardcore) has been around for long enough that a lot of it really is mainstream now.

[Joseph]

If we're talking about hardcore punk, I'm pretty sure it started out just as much a boy's club as metal is.  Until the whole Olympia/Riot Grrl/K Records thing, were there really any female members of punk bands?  The bassist from Black Flag and the Butthole Surfers' drummer are the only ones that come to mind.

The Slits...

[karl gambolputty...]

Can't believe I forgot the Slits.  Then again, they really weren't part of the hardcore scene.

[a pack of wolves]

As well as X-Ray Spex, Crass, Chumbawamba, The Rezillos, The Adverts, The Raincoats, Vice Squad and plenty more up until riot grrl. Hardcore was extremely male-dominated in the 80s, but you have The Dicks, The Beastie Boys (female drummer while they were a hardcore band), Black Flag and some others the names of which are escaping me right now. Riot grrl did mark a very significant change in punk and hardcore though, no denying it. It's still not that great, but things are better than they were.

diablo_man, I think we can basically agree that both could be classified as high risk genres from the standpoint of the comment Caspian quoted, which still leaves us with the question of what causes the disparity. And I think you're onto something with the technical skill aspect. Although plenty of punk and hardcore bands contain incredibly technically skilled musicians, this isn't seen as a prerequisite for forming a band. In fact, no technical skill at all is required (see Beat Happening, though naturally they get more and more adept the longer they were around). This serves to break down the barriers between crowd and audience and who can be in a band, making it easier and more acceptable for people who might otherwise have been marginalised and taking the creation of music out of the sole hands of those with extensive training and expensive instruments and making it more open. It's one of the things I love most about punk and hardcore actually, and is very probably part of the reason you get more women in bands in that scene.

[karl gambolputty...]

I see a lot of NY art punk, and first-wave British Punk in that list Tommy, I don't see a lot of hardcore bands.  My point, I guess, is we're not talking about genres, we're talking about scenes.  I really don't think there's anything about metal, or punk, or polka, that makes it more or less friendly to women.

[a pack of wolves]

The Blood Sisters website is a pretty good resource for bands that include women in heavy music, but sadly it hasn't been updated in a long time. I've found a lot of good information there over the years although it's nowhere near comprehensive. Like 7 Seconds said, "it's not just boy's fun".

[Sappho]

Teh Uterus - it scares menfolks.
One might say.

[Nodaisho]

What the fuck are you talking about?
One might say.

[Sappho]

What I was really saying there was:
There are a lot of stereotypes flying around and some of them are full of shit but there is obviously a grain of truth in the idea that men and women have difficulty relating,
and that there's not much more to say on about that so let's not beat the point to death,
and I'll say something somewhat nonsensical and almost certainly out of context mostly to amuse myself and bring some ironic levity to the whole thing.

[Caspian]

Off the top of my head, some women in punk and the associated subgenres -

bands

Plus hundreds more. Sorry, this is sort of important to me.

Honestly, what the hell does this prove? I'm sure if I was feeling particularly bored I could browse through Metal Archives and find plenty of females in metal bands (GALLHAMMER \m/). Saying that there's hundreds doesn't prove shit, I'm sure there are heaps but without any sort of comparison to the amount of males or whatever listing a couple of females in bands doesn't really say anything worthwhile.

[a pack of wolves]

karl gambolputty... asked about whether or not there were any women in punk bands before riot grrl which sparked all that off. I think it also says something about punk and metal relatively since it's really easy to start reeling off loads of extremely influential, well-respected punk bands with female members, a fair few of the big names in the scene over the years, but I'm having a hard time doing the same with metal bands in my head. Maybe that's just because I don't know anywhere near as much about metal, and I would love to be proved wrong, but when I think about it that's how it seems.

[Caspian]

karl gambolputty... asked about whether or not there were any women in punk bands before riot grrl which sparked all that off. I think it also says something about punk and metal relatively since it's really easy to start reeling off loads of extremely influential, well-respected punk bands with female members, a fair few of the big names in the scene over the years, but I'm having a hard time doing the same with metal bands in my head. Maybe that's just because I don't know anywhere near as much about metal, and I would love to be proved wrong, but when I think about it that's how it seems.

Well, here's a few, I'd rather not just list a lot but so be it:
Nightwish, and all of the shitty-but-popular-in-europe symphonic power metal bands. Epica, After Forever, Within Temptation etc etc.
Arch Enemy
Diablo Swing Orchestra
Boris
While I wouldn't call Swans metal, they're certainly somewhat close in a couple of albums. If Tommy can claim the B52's as 'associated with punk', I will associate Swans with metal.
Nuclear Death were a much loved thrash band with a female vocalist, as were Holy Moses.
The Gathering
GALLHAMMER \m/
Nadja
The Angelic Process
The Goslings (most of the dreamy doom stuff seems to be done by husband/wife teams, quite strange)
Jucifer (another husband/wife team)


There's 16 off the top of my head, that'll do. Ultimately, though, I'll concede that metal is much more a male-dominated genre. Again though, listing some bands doesn't really prove much.

[diablo_man]

^yup that covers all the ones i could think of, though nightwish and lacuna coil(thats another one) are kinda borderline metal.
aside from a few random girls i have seen playing flute, etc on a couple folk metal bands i dont know of any metal bands with girls on instruments, as opposed to just singers. at least none that have attained any degree of recognition.
either way, metal is definitely the biggest boys club.

[Nodaisho]

How like a winter (MDB worshipers that I like) has a female violinist, but that still falls under the kind of instrument a female is expected to play (though my brother plays violin).

[KharBevNor]

Er, My Dying Bride themselves have two female members, the keyboard player and the bassist. Bolt Throwers bassist is a woman, (and she fucking slays too). Astarte have female guitar, keyboard and bass player (only the drummer is male), Cryptic Wintermoon has a female keyboard player, so does Skyclad (also on fiddle as well). Chthonic are/were half female (drummer, singer and lead I think), Silent Streams of Godless Elegy had a female violinist, Matriarch are all female, a few examples off the top of my head.

That's just concentrating on instrumentalists not yet mentioned. There are many other bands with female vocalists, supporting or otherwise.

[Nodaisho]

Huh, didn't know that about MDB.

Is it just me, or does something involving winter seem like a cheating name for a metal band, you could go ___winter, winter___, or ___ winter ___, and you have a good metal name. I mean, really, looking at the MA list of bands by name, just looking at the ones starting with winter, there are 121 from my count. Not 121 seperate names, there are quite a few duplicates from different countries.

[diablo_man]

Er, My Dying Bride themselves have two female members, the keyboard player and the bassist. Bolt Throwers bassist is a woman, (and she fucking slays too). Astarte have female guitar, keyboard and bass player (only the drummer is male), Cryptic Wintermoon has a female keyboard player, so does Skyclad (also on fiddle as well). Chthonic are/were half female (drummer, singer and lead I think), Silent Streams of Godless Elegy had a female violinist, Matriarch are all female, a few examples off the top of my head.

That's just concentrating on instrumentalists not yet mentioned. There are many other bands with female vocalists, supporting or otherwise.

I had forgotten about Bolt Thrower! the female guitarist in Astarte, does she play lead or rhythm? I'd like to check them out, im interested.   never thought much of my Dying Bride,  but thanks for pointing those out.

[Caspian]

Random break of thought: MDB are actually really, really good! I just got their Turn loose the Swans album and it's seriously excellent.

Also: Tommy, fair enough that you're mentioning them because they're in the first wave of punk- perhaps you could've pointed that out straight away, though.

[camelpimp]

This thread makes me want to learn how to play the guitar and create a band, just out of spite.

[öde]

This thread makes me want to buy a skirt and rock out.

[Patrick]

Hey Dan it worked for these guys.

[MadassAlex]

"No more bullshit end it now, thanks to the ALF keep it up. Claim we're nazis, claim we're criminals. Authorities scared of the movement"

     I think the idea of metal is "think for yourself", not "wank over my opinions because I'm in a shitty band".
   /
 

[a pack of wolves]

Considering that there have been a number of extremely right wing bands in the history of metal I think we can discount that as the point of metal. It might be what the music tends to make you think though, which is perfectly valid.

Just because D.S.-13 present their views in a straightforward, confrontational manner doesn't mean they want people to adore them for it. Sometimes it's good not to be mealy-mouthed about things. You may not agree with what they say, but their reasons for saying it probably aren't for ego gratification. Playing fast hardcore has never been a route to big crowds and adoration after all.

[MadassAlex]

Dude, I'm just being a dick. I don't believe hardcore bands put themselves on a pedestal more than metal bands do.

Although I tend to disagree with the idea that metal is more socially accessible than hardcore in general, but that might be due to Australia in general.

[roulettescars]

I would venture to guess that its because females have a tendency to express their emotions and feelings in a more straight forward way... such as talking about them or something. So guys have a stronger tendency to try and desquise their emotional venting as something more socially acceptable, like playing guitar, or getting blasted and beating the piss out of anyone different than you.

[sean]

dude guys are capable of expressing their feeligns. by talking and shit

i think.

well i can.

[roulettescars]

Well yeah, I'm not saying its unheard of. I'm talking about blanket stereotyping here. I thought thats what we were doing. My bad. haha.

[Patrick]

You can put me under any blanket you want, baby!
  /


I express my feelings typically by putting on somebody else's music and airdrumming. You flail around and get out a lot of stress while getting a half-decent isometric and aerobic workout in. Really effective, but not half as fun as real drums, which I suppose is what gets people started.

[Caspian]

Considering that there have been a number of extremely right wing bands in the history of metal I think we can discount that as the point of metal.

This is a pretty sub-par comment. Are you telling me that there's never been any right wing punk bands? heard of RAC? And just the HUGE amount of skinhead/nazi/white-power punk that there is? It far exceeds the amount of right wing metal bands- though certainly there's a lot of 'em. Overall, though, that's hardly a valid point.

Furthermore, the idea that being right wing means you don't "think for yourself" is completely ignorant, and shows a fairly large lack of knowledge about right wing politics and politics in general. (for the record, I'm not much of a right winger, bit of a centrist myself).

[a pack of wolves]

Well, it all depends on your outlook. Personally I'd say that fascism is an ideology that definitely aims to make people not think for themselves, and that this is to a large extent the end result of all right wing thinking. I have a very dim opinion of any politics on the right, but that's really a discussion for another time.

I don't think punk rock has any kind of a specific point like "think for yourself" any more than metal does. As you point out, it's too broad and there are too many bands that wouldn't fit into that assessment.

[Caspian]

Well, it all depends on your outlook. Personally I'd say that fascism is an ideology that definitely aims to make people not think for themselves, and that this is to a large extent the end result of all right wing thinking. I have a very dim opinion of any politics on the right, but that's really a discussion for another time.

 

I guess that is a discussion for another time. Doesn't make that comment any less retarded, though.

Anyway, how about moving away from punk and metal? Let's steer this thread in an unlikely direction: ambient. Seems like this genres are HUGELY male dominated- I for one can think of only one ambient artist/group with a female member (which would be Natural Snow Buildings, which I doubt too many people have heard of). I'm a fairly big fan of this genre and I like to think I know a bit about it (although certainly there'll be people on here who'll know a lot more then me). I seriously can't think of another one- Leah Buckareff in Nadja, maybe, but that's about it.

Ambient is a pretty well respected genre, it's not all that rebellious. Here we have a rather different example from punk and metal but a similar result.

Discuss.

[a pack of wolves]

If you're agreeing to let something lie don't try to get in any parting shots, particularly insulting ones. No need to get personal, and if you'd like to know why I think that you can always just pm me.

You make a good point about ambient. One possible reason that occurs to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong since you clearly know more about the genre than me) is that the people I know that make ambient music create it on computers, alone, and they don't do live performances. So we have the factor of it bring based in a field traditionally seen as male, that of computer technology. I don't know what the ratio is now but when a friend of mine studied programming a few years ago she said she was the only woman on her course. There seems to be a greater stigma attached to a woman who spends most of her time in front of a computer screen. The general expectation of society also seems to expect women to be social to a greater degree than men and ambient doesn't really provide that since it largely seems to lack live performance and bandmates, which might be a discouraging factor.

[Jimmy the Squid]

You would think that after four pages of this thread we could all agree that men are just plain better than women.

Please direct all angry and humourless responses to me via PM.

[Patrick]

Girls are icky.

[GenericName]

Patrick's face is icky.

[Patrick]

I meant what I said and I'll stand by it to the death.

/obscure?

[Caspian]

If you're agreeing to let something lie don't try to get in any parting shots, particularly insulting ones. No need to get personal, and if you'd like to know why I think that you can always just pm me.

You make a good point about ambient. One possible reason that occurs to me (and please correct me if I'm wrong since you clearly know more about the genre than me) is that the people I know that make ambient music create it on computers, alone, and they don't do live performances. So we have the factor of it bring based in a field traditionally seen as male, that of computer technology. I don't know what the ratio is now but when a friend of mine studied programming a few years ago she said she was the only woman on her course. There seems to be a greater stigma attached to a woman who spends most of her time in front of a computer screen. The general expectation of society also seems to expect women to be social to a greater degree than men and ambient doesn't really provide that since it largely seems to lack live performance and bandmates, which might be a discouraging factor.

Fair enough about the parting shot. I kind of misunderstood your post for a parting shot as well. One thing that's worth noting, though, is that while some/most ambient is done on computers, most of it isn't, and a lot of it is played live. It's a point that, while somewhat valid, I don't think really accounts for the large differences. Worth noting that there's also a similiar discrepancy in post-rock - or at least the epic quiet/loud version of said genre- which surely is closer to rock, and indeed maybe classical- but the only female I can think of in the epic post rock genre is Mono's bassist.

[diablo_man]

well, here is something for you guys. i remembered the name of the most famous female guitar shredder that i alluded to a million posts ago. her name is The Great Kat.
heres a video of her playing (most videos are short and crappy, this is the best i could find)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evvYWN3bKi4

here is an interview with her, as i said before she is a bit egocentric. makes malmsteen look downright humble.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENo4EZ-OEJo

so there you go. according to the shred and metal section at ultimate guitar, she is the best/most famous female shredder out there. i have seen a few videos of girls playing better than her, but as far as i can tell she is the only one with a degree of fame.
cant say i like her or her music much, but there you go.

[IronOxide]

That isn't her own song, she's just another cog in the male motivic music monstrosity.

[diablo_man]

well, feel free to look for more of her stuff, that was the best video i could find on youtube for her.

[Red Peril]

1. There are slightly fewer women than men into the heavier end of music, but not big enough to make a difference in my opinion.
2. Women are totally physically capable of playing any instrument; Women may have smaller hands but it is proven that their manual dexterity is superior, making up for this. You don't need to be particularly strong to play the drums, especially if the are amplified (I am 5'6" and weigh 10 stone and I play the drums, does that sound superhuman to anyone?) and a smaller body gives you BETTER endurance, not worse, why do you think all long distance runners are so small? Anyone can play bass, no arguments here, its just a guitar with four strings.
3. Girls are much less likely to be encouraged to take up an instrument early on, meaning that they always look worse than male peers of the same age.
4. Women are much less likely to be praised for any progress they make on their instrument than men, or encouraged to play in a group context, which lowers their self esteem in relation to playing publicly. When they are praised they often get told they are good "for a woman", which is even worse.
5. Women who play live do get harrassed, no doubt about it, anyone who says otherwise is a liar or incapable of seeing what is right in front of them.
6. Women seem less prone to the kind of monomania which makes certain guitar players stand out as excellent, or rather they tend to focus on the guitar less as the point of this behaviour.
7. Most importantly in my opinion, when a women wants to join a band only one member of that band has to have a prejudice against women members, the rest of the band will probably follow that one persons lead and reject her to keep the band together.

I don't think there's anything particularly hyper-masculine about loud music or the concerts they take place at, but there is a definite air of masculine exclusion surrounding Metal, Punk, Indie or whatever which stops most women who don't want to actively seek confrontation from even taking up an instrument in the first place, and most of these women are labelled troublemakers and excluded for that reason.
 

[Spluff]

We've already had a conversation about the great kat, and she is pretty damn bad.

[Caspian]

1. There are slightly fewer women than men into the heavier end of music, but not big enough to make a difference in my opinion.

You would've done so well, if only you hadn't included this point. There are FAR less women playing heavier music then men (except for maybe punk, ok tommy?  )

This has inspired me to do some more genre specific searching. (http://www.last.fm/tag/genrename/artists is the way I'm doing it)

Top 50 metal bands (some of which aren't metal, but anyway):  SIX females. Actually as much (per capita) as the last.fm top 100, but still NOT A LOT. And Evanescence isn't exactly metal.

Top 50 punk bands. Now, punk is pretty subjective but so is metal- there's certainly a few stinkers in this top 50 that clearly aren't punk (blink 182, anyone?). Anyway: ONE. At least I think so (black flag bassist was female?), there may be a few female bassists/guitarists/drummers I don't know about. Definitely no vocalists, though.

The two traditionally 'heavy' genres out of the way, (and me having proven the over guy wrong). I thought I'd look through some more genres.

Top 50 indie bands. This could be quite interesting (i know this is a subjective/meaningless genre etc etc). Thirteen here. Less then i thought, actually. I may be out by two or three, I know all the bands there but only vaguely.

Top 50 Rock bands. Again a bit subjective. The Evanescence singer, Meg from the White Stripes and Kim from the Pixies (I hope her name is kim.. isn't there a Kim in Sonic Youth? Maybe?) prevent it from being a clean sweep.

Top 50 Pop bands. Could be interesting. 37 women! Quite impressive. 7 out of the top 10 are women.

Top 50 BANANA bands. Only Gwen Stefani gets in this illustrious tag. There aren't 50 bands, though.

Top 50 Jazz bands. I'm just going off singers for this one. (And there's NO WAY that Norah Jones or freakin' Michael Buble is jazz, ffs.) Anyway, eight of them, most them up in the top 20, though.

I'd like to do the top 50 twee bands, but I have no idea who any of the bands are and I can't really be arsed looking through all of 'em. Perhaps someone else could do this?

Anyway I'd do more but except for drone (7 girls in the top 50, I think) I don't really know any off any other genres well enough. That concludes my little survey thing, I may be out by one or two in a few places. I know I didn't count the guys but for, say, Metal and Punk, there may be over 150 of them in each genre, and I can't be bothered doing that.

Interesting to note, as well, the sausage fest that is Death Metal has TWO (Bolt Thrower's Bassist, Arch Enemy's Singer) females. Come on punk, pick up your act   

[Patrick]

Anyone can play bass, no arguments here, its just a guitar with four strings.

Man I don't care about gender debates, because, well, they go around in circles. But wait WHAT. Basses are like... a guitar + 1/3 in terms of size.

[Caspian]

My 8 year old brother could play most of Gene Simmons' bass lines, I'm sure.

[Patrick]

Gene Simmons is shit.

Discuss.

[MadassAlex]

Gene Simmons had a bass duel with some dude on an Australian music show and beat the shit out of him. Gene Simmons has actually become a really technical bass player.

That said, his basslines suck. Eat shit, Gene Simmons.

I always wanted to name a cat "Gene Simmons".

[camelpimp]

Gene Simmons is shit.

Discuss.

And you know what? Hitler really wasn't a nice guy.