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The Great Porn Debate
Barmymoo:
Without trying to support either argument, can I introduce the fact that banning something doesn't get rid of it, it just drives it underground and out of the way of official control? Like, for example, prohibition or prostitution.
I'm not saying that banning rape scenes is a bad idea, or that it's a good idea for that matter. Just something to consider, maybe.
Oli:
The argument isn't about whether rape has a moral grey area. I'm entirely confident that nobody on here is ever going to try to argue that point.
I entirely agree that rape should not have a place in porn; infact it shouldn't have a place anywhere. However simulated rape scenes in porn are, by definition, not rape. Even if it's being depicted as realistically as possible the actress and actor will have consented (unless of course you are watching a video of an actual rape, but let's assume you're not). This means that you can argue about the abhorrance of rape till you're blue in the face and you still won't be addressing the issue.
The argument here is about whether or not anyone has the right to restrict what rational adults are allowed to view, and without any real evidence pointing towards a causal link (note: not a correlation, also note: there are literally hundreds of studies that conclude there is - almost definitely - not a causal link) between previously well adjusted people watching "rape" pornography and going on to rape women I'm going to say that nobody has any right to tell me what I can and cannot watch or do in private.
And if you're going to ban any kind of porn on the basis that it promotes sexism and the idea of women as objects you're going to have to ban a complete fuckload of TV.
p.s. This post wasn't directed at red lion, just as a response to his post. We can still be homies, dogg.
0bsessions:
Fenriswolf:
--- Quote from: Barmymoo on 05 May 2008, 10:51 ---Without trying to support either argument, can I introduce the fact that banning something doesn't get rid of it, it just drives it underground and out of the way of official control? Like, for example, prohibition or prostitution.
I'm not saying that banning rape scenes is a bad idea, or that it's a good idea for that matter. Just something to consider, maybe.
--- End quote ---
See, I agree with the argument but it's simply not applicable in this case IMO. I think the fact that rape is tacitly acceptable according to the mainstream conciousness (ie: everyone knows rape is awful but it's not rape if she was a prostitute/she was drunk/she consented to act a but not act b) puts us in a position of not being able to be wishy washy when it comes to things like this
--- Quote from: Oli on 05 May 2008, 11:06 ---The argument isn't about whether rape has a moral grey area. I'm entirely confident that nobody on here is ever going to try to argue that point.
--- End quote ---
Well you're possibly over-optimistic as you can find arguments about rape being a grey area in pretty much all areas of the internet that pause to discuss rape. Seriously
--- Quote from: Oli on 05 May 2008, 11:06 ---And if you're going to ban any kind of porn on the basis that it promotes sexism and the idea of women as objects you're going to have to ban a complete fuckload of TV.
--- End quote ---
I'm not sure how you get from banning pornography that clearly depicts rape to banning objectifying movies/whatever. Really I'm not :?
--- Quote from: Oli on 05 May 2008, 11:06 ---I entirely agree that rape should not have a place in porn; infact it shouldn't have a place anywhere. However simulated rape scenes in porn are, by definition, not rape. Even if it's being depicted as realistically as possible the actress and actor will have consented (unless of course you are watching a video of an actual rape, but let's assume you're not). This means that you can argue about the abhorrance of rape till you're blue in the face and you still won't be addressing the issue.
--- End quote ---
Well the whole point is that it's marketed to people who are aroused by the victim's struggles and fear - not something I personally see as acceptable. I cannot possibly see that people who wish to be involved in rape scenarios as the victim would relate to pornography of such.
Elizzybeth:
You really think people who are turned on by victimization wouldn't be interested in rape porn? I thought that was kind of the whole point of the whole sub part of the sub/dom scene, what with roleplaying and the lolita movement and safe words.
I agree with you that real rape is unacceptable under any circumstances, but I think criminalizing people who watch rape porn is an unhealthy move as a society--if roleplaying rape scenarios is 100% legal, why should watching porn of such scenarios (which were filmed legally, with consenting actors) be illegal? And again, as other people have mentioned, the censors are going to have to find the thin line between pornography and film: if you can't have a rape scene in pornography, why should we be allowed to have it in film? Is sexual stimulation truly so different from the pleasure we get from high art? Can we have rape scenes in movies, but we're not allowed to enjoy them? Are the thought police going to come hang out on my couch while we watch American History X, taping sensors to my nipples and genitalia during the shower rape scene, just in case?
Certainly, there's something to be said for the argument that desentization to rape is a societal problem, but I think most rape depictions must be either sought out or come with a clear warning (at least anywhere with a movie ratings board). Even if you were disgusted by A Clockwork Orange, for example, you were not shocked by it. Surely, particularly if you read the book, you had some idea what was coming. And truly, the desentization argument could me made of much movie content--murder, war, mafiosos, and teen preganacy are all serious systemic problems, but movies are made about such issues daily. For our enjoyment, too!
Rape is a serious issue, doubtless. And I understand that it's one people feel emotional enough about that sometimes rational debate is not only difficult but impossible. But I don't think you can fairly single out and demonize rape porn enthusiasts (which, again, I'm not, just for the record) without ignoring a host of at-least-as-serious issues, in the process criminalizing a group of people who, on the whole, are truly enjoying harmless fun.
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