Fun Stuff > CHATTER
Child Pornography or Art? Is there a line, if so where?
pi:
--- Quote from: tommydski on 28 May 2008, 13:09 ---
--- Quote from: Sox ---You're playing devil's advocate in the wrong thread. Be extremely careful what you say from here on out.
--- End quote ---
When your opening gambit is "What's So Wrong About Fucking Children" it's difficult to predict what might be in store for an encore.
Probably a violin concerto of Rush songs or something.
--- End quote ---
I was actually thinking either a discussion of the merits of the Armenian Genocide Misunderstanding or a reenactment of Vitas'[youtube] second coming of Christ.
RedLion:
Don't get into the Armenian thing. I think I already went on a tangent about it on this forum once. I've studied Turkey's past and current politics, culture, etc., for 3 years, as part of an ongoing AP Government course my high school does that lasts for all four years. In fact, less than two months ago I was in D.C with the class, and interviewed the U.S. State Department officer responsible for Turkey, who made it clear that the official US government position is that what happened what not a genocide. Massacres, but not genocide. Armenians killed tens of thousands of Turks during that period too. No government in the world (except France) recognizes it as genocide. I also talked to the the head of the American branch of the Armenian National Bureau, who confided that "we Armenians are living on collective memory. That memory has been corrupted over the years. What many of my countrymen and expatriates say is not historically accurate." Russia was invading, the Armenians sided with Russia, took arms and supplies from them and attacked the Ottoman Turks from behind, killing at least 11,000 Ottoman troops on the eastern front. So Turkish militias were formed and attacked Armenian militias. Civilians on both sides were the losers. Think modern Iraq, but with no outside force to hold back the floodgates.
The same answer--that it was not genocide--was given by David Cuthell, Professor of Turkish and Armenian studies, at Georgetown University; Nabi Sensoy, the Ambassador of Turkey (obviously); Former American Ambassador to Turkey James H. Holmes; and even a diplomat at the British embassy. I spoke with all of these people. Let me make clear I have no vested interest in the issue, I'm not Turkish in any way, nor do I have any ties to it. But all of my research, interviews and analysis has led me to the conclusion that to call what happened a "genocide" does a disservice to instances of actual genocide--the Holocaust, Rwanda, and Cambodia. I mean, the Armenians claim that 1.5 million Armenians died. By all historical accounts, there was less than 1 million people--Kurds, Turks and Armenians combined--in eastern Ottoman Empire at that time. After WW1, 100,000 Armenians emigrated to America, and almost 200,000 across Europe, while hundreds of thousands settled in what is present day Armenia. So that claim is not numerically possible. The promotion of a genocide occurring in American and British press during that period was, frankly, propaganda against the Ottomans, who were drawn into the war on the side of Germany only because Russia invaded, largely unprovoked, so the Ottomans declared war on Russia, leading France, Britain and America to declare war on the Ottomans. A few years ago, the British government fully acknowledged that it pressured some newspapers to exaggerate and play up the story. Further, the government archives--deemed by historians to be complete and accurate, with none missing-- of the Ottoman Empire are fully accessible in Istanbul and Ankara. Armenia refuses to open its files. Why?
Oops. Did it again. If it seems like I fly off the handle on this issue, I probably do. It's extremely annoying to see people so misinformed about something that you've spent years studying. I'm sure this lengthy, off-topic diatribe will earn me some kind of reprimand or sarcastic comment. Oh well. Basically: this is the one issue where I can say that if you haven't done equivalent research, don't challenge my knowledge on it.
So! Having sex with children. Not cool.
Anyone read Lolita?
Tom:
I think we should all ignore Pi's arguments because he quoted wikipedia, that article was probably written by a peadophile. Speaking of that I think I'll put this into wikipedia's paedophilia article.
The relationship you have with your special friend is a special secret that you can't tell anyone else about becasue they will say it is wrong and take away your special friend
onewheelwizzard:
I think I feel safe saying that even pedophilia is something that ought to be evaluated with an eye towards context. I can imagine situations in which applying a definition of "unquestionably wrong and evil in every way" towards an adult/child sexual relationship would have a more damaging effect on the child than the relationship itself. I doubt that such a situation could arise in today's society without some SERIOUSLY extenuating circumstances, but I consider it possible for sure, and while I fully expect that after examining context, almost all pedophilic relationships could still be accurately defined as "wrong" or "harmful," I don't think it's a good idea to throw a blanket statement at the issue and call it over and done with.
It's an entirely theoretical and abstract point because I'd be VERY hard-pressed to come up with even a hypothetical fictional situation to support my point, but in principle I believe that the morality of something as subjective as sexuality cannot be generalized.
pi:
--- Quote from: RedLion on 28 May 2008, 15:16 ---No government in the world (except France) recognizes it as genocide
--- End quote ---
Really? That's odd, considering the term genocide was practically defined by citing the examples of the Simele massacre, Holocaust, and the Armenian Genocide.
edit: this was a test to see if textual sarcasm can now be effectively conveyed.
--- Code: ---Results: N
Clarifying: the following is a joke.
--- End code ---
also, Armenian Genocide.
Even if I had no idea what happened, I would probably assume it is genocide. And, doing my best to avoid politics here, I'd say that that's probably the boat most of the US Government is in.
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